The German people are rightly ashamed of their Nazi past. In Germany, it is neither socially nor politically acceptable to glorify their nation’s role in World War II, nor to deny the atrocities they committed. The overwhelming majority of Germans accept and admit that their nation was on the wrong side of morality and history.
And yet 150 years after the onset of the American Civil War—a war the South fought to preserve and expand the institution of slavery—many Southerners still proudly celebrate the Confederacy, and mourn its defeat.
Huh.
@90: “The two most liberal cities in the USA, Seattle and Portland, are also the two whitest cities in the USA.
What an amazing coincidence.”
>look up list of most liberal and most conservative cities in America
>Seattle is #16, just ahead of Chicago, Philly, and Birmingham
>Portland doesn’t even make the top 25
>which is The Most Liberal?
>Detroit
>nope.avi
(Source.
Bit of a tangent, but for those southerners who posted about feeling embarrassed or ashamed of their accent, could I just say that I personally happen to find it very sexy.
@102, You remind me of the Period Hive Mind.
@105: I think it’s because, like Period Troll, Robby formats his posts as though they were poems.
@102, slaveowners very much DID, on occasion, try to exterminate their slaves, or work them to death, which is the same thing. Not so much in the US, though it did happen, but in the earlier period, when the US was just a part of the British colonial system (and not a very significant part at that), it was customary on the Caribbean sugar islands to work the slaves during harvest 20 hours a day or more — around the clock, in many documented cases. The reasoning at the time was that it was cheaper to just get more than to treat them even as well as livestock; more ships full of slaves were stacking up right there in the harvest. The average lifespan in the sugar fields was in some cases just a year or two before death. Not just the British, either.
In the US the pressure to maintain working populations was greater, especially after the slave trade itself was stopped. By the 1850s the vast majority of slaves in the US had been living here for many generations. Keeping them alive and healthy as productive workers and breeding stock meant not killing them but in fact increasing them.
But the Nazis worked their captives as well, though, much like the sugar workers.
Most people who feel the urge to discuss slavery would be well advised to read up on the subject. I suggest Hugh Thomas’s “The Slave Trade”. It’s long, and confusing in parts, but it paints the whole picture, not just the tiny corner of it that took place in the US. Something like a twentieth of all African slaves were brought here; about an eighth as many as were taken to Brazil, for instance.
I’ve found people who wave the Confederate Flag in modern times seem to have more in common with people who wear Mohawks and people who wear the Arafat keffiyah than they have in common with Nazis and segregationists.
Part of its appeal to them is how butt-hurt rational people get when they see it. We give power to those symbols. They exploit the power we give them.
Who doesn’t love giving the middle finger to the man? (even if, in retrospect, they look like morons?)
Trust me, German punks would wear swastikas if the only consequence were snooty sneers from their parents.
And Fnarf: When you talk about why we fought the civil war, are you talking about why the leaders made their decisions, or are you talking about why the soldiers so enthusiastically volunteered? I’m willing to argue those decisions are different in almost every war we’ve fought.
all the history of slavery, serfdom, raiding and capturing by all peoples throughout history is far, far more fascinating than the facile commenting about it and using it to display one’s racism today….or one’s nonracism or antiracism.
as an institution it pervaded everything. there were black people with slaves. the barbary coast pirates took white slaves, the christians enslaved the moors in spain, the euros expanded and applied globalization and industrial plantation methods to sezie millions from africa and expand slavery beyond anything known till then esp. in st. dominque, jamaica, etc., enriching english and french nobles beyond belief…..brazil had way more than usa….usa was sort of a hinterland at the time ….and the maintenance of slavery in all parts required constant use of violence implied and express and even celebrated by the entire white overlodrd class including riding patrols at night every night to hunt down any slave that would be off the plantation …this is the origin of the kkk it didn’t just spring forth after the civil war it was an instiuttion that persisted. why you think southern folks had local esteemed white guys they’d call colonel? because they had anti slave militias at all times. sadly the history of enslaved person’s constant rebellions and revolts including sometimes killing lots of whites is hidden from us in our stupid public school versions of history. I’d like to see a big museum of slave revolt leaders on the mall. the founding fathers compromised on this issue and it is their everlasting shame and it does us well to remind us that while they got some stuff right
they ain’t gods
and it’s up to us to advance human rights in our world today and deal with whatever issues we have today whether its female mutiliation, subj. of women, AIG running rampant, GOP lying about health care causing deaths or Obama agreeing to make DC a fucking colony of the USA by agreeing to cut DC’s LOCAL funding for abortions. They should just rename it the Plantation of Columbia. And everyone in America who doesn’t take up that human rights issue is compromised, too. They can’t vote, and we rule them like a colony, maybe we should focus more on shit we’re doing wrong today than calling out civil war reenactors? who merely meet and march? we just had democrats voting to strip dc of local home rule like a fucking plantation, wtf? That’s our racism today.
Hitler wasnt a bad man he just made bad choices.
I realize I’m a little late for the party, but as many of you know electricity is just now reaching the rural parts of Mississippi I call home. I can only agree with one comment of the 108 being that this discussion is disgusting. I’m unable to understand what “change” you expect by adding fuel to the fire.
I’ve lived in what we southerners call God’s country for twenty-five years. I recently left the south and residing in Philadelphia, PA. I feel as though I have left America. We may have an additional flag, but we also have many other wonderful attributes. Some of those including yes mam, yes sir, please, thank you, sweet iced tea, homemade pecan pie and porch sitting.
I find it interesting that so many people STILL believe in a south that will rise again. Everyone is so brave sitting behind their computers, but how many of you have dared to visit our nations fine southern states (Florida doesn’t count)?
For those of you who have not I urge you to take the 18 hour drive in your Subaru, Mercedes, or BMW as soon as possible. Helpful hint: Be sure to tune your radio station to Rick & Bubba during the drive to prepare your northern minds to our dixie culture (166 on XM).
Upon your arrival you’ll find paved two lane roads, neighbors helping neighbors, and even african americans and caucasians peacefully coexisting. You may even be surprised to learn that we all share water from the fountain, break bread together, work together, play together, attend school together and of course ride the bus together.
It’s my belief that forums such as these are just a way to keep the south stuck in the past. I hate to break the news, but we’ve moved on. Maybe yall should too!
-Peace, Love & Corn Bread – GOD BLESS!