The Book of Mormon is available for free, and fleets of dashing
young men commit up to three years of their lives to delivering it. So
if you want retribution for the Mormon-funded Proposition 8—the
bigoted measure that banned same-sex marriage in
California—requesting a copy is one way to burn some Latter-day
dough. If the government won’t tax the church’s pyramid tithing PAC, at
least you can tax its resources.

At Mormon.org, anyone can sign up
for a free Book of Mormon. I thought they’d mail me a copy. But when I
filled out the form, up popped this message: “Thank you for requesting
the Book of Mormon from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day
Saints. You should be contacted by missionaries in a few days.”

Actual missionaries? It sounded too good to be true. Four days
later, my phone rang. It was Elder Guthrie—he and Elder Leatham
would arrive around 6:00 p.m. And at 6:11, there they fucking were. I
shook their hands and pointed them to the couch.

“You may have heard about Proposition 8,” I said. They nodded. I
told them that the California measure cast uncertainty on the marriage
licenses of nearly 20,000 same-sex couples, that Mormon Church leaders
directed their congregations to “do all you can to support
the…amendment by donating of your means and time,” resulting in
two-thirds of the Prop 8 funding.

The boys stared at their shoes. They work and live on Capitol Hill,
and are dispatched by text message every time some gay guy with a beef
orders a book. But their convictions remain strong. “When I read the
Book of Mormon, it makes me happy,” said wide-eyed Guthrie, writing
down passages in suspiciously bubbly handwriting for me to read
later.

The Book of Mormon itself is a melodrama. The passages, printed on
pages thin enough to roll into joints, read like Penthouse prose
spiked with Shakespearian clichés: “Thy seed also had been as
the sand; the offspring of thy bowels like the gravel thereof….”
Bowel seed, First Book of Nephi? Verily gross.

The 779-page Book of Mormon, first written in an Egyptian-ish scrawl
on gold tablets, was discovered by Joseph Smith in 1823. (Nobody has
seen these gold tablets since.) Smith was surely transcribing the word
of God directly when reporting that the Jaredites came to the Americas
to find “elephants and cureloms and cumoms.”

But the book doesn’t directly address gay marriage. When pressed for
an example of the harm that same-sex marriages would cause Mormons,
Thomas Olson, president of the Mormon’s Seattle North Stake, couldn’t
name one. He also wouldn’t quote the Book of Mormon. Instead, he cited
the church’s so-called “Proclamation on the Family.” It declares that
“marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God and that the
family is central to the Creator’s plan….” Church president Gordon B.
Hinckley announced the proclamation on September 23, 1995.

In other words, Mormons updated their religion in 1995, and now
that’s what they all believe and you better believe it, too.

“We certainly don’t condone bigotry or targeting gays or lesbians,”
says Olson. “I guess people would say… that we have done that, but
that is not our intent.”

I told the Elders that it doesn’t matter what their book sayeth about what I can or can’t doeth with my bowel seed. There’s the Bible, the Koran, the Torah, the Flying Spaghetti Monster Cookbook, and they all maintain different recipes for salvation—but those books don’t establish laws for shrimp eaters, ham lovers, or pastophobes. Any holy book or religion, if enacted into law, would deny the followers of another book their freedoms.

I asked the two young missionaries, “Wouldn’t it be bigoted if I
interpreted my book of faith to take away your rights?”

Awkward pause.

“As it happens, I do have a book that guides my faith and would
repeal your rights if passed into law,” I said. I’d folded a few pages
of printer paper in half, and on the cover I’d scrawled “The Book of
More Men.”

“The first page here says, ‘Mormons shall not foist their doctrine
unto others lest those who hateth Mormons subject their rules upon
others. Rule number one: Mormon missionaries must not proselytize.'”
The guys laughed. They would return home to Arizona in a few months
welted by the tongue-lashings of dozens more fags like me. We shook
hands, and they left. I put my copy of the Book of Mormon next to the
toilet, where all my houseguests could use its pages to wipe their
bowel seed. recommended

197 replies on “The Missionaries’ Position”

  1. Why dont you try using the Koran the way you use the Book of Mormon. See how long your sorry much-used ass would last before some Jihadist finds you. It’s easy to insult a religion that turns the other cheek. See how well you gay boys would do against Islam.

  2. There will be someone, or multiple ‘someones,’ that will initially take your proposal of retribution, while sharing your feelings toward our faith, and will request missionaries. But one or more of them will actually end up seeing things our way. It will not likely be many, it may be only one, but your effort here will to fight the Church will turn to the Church’s benefit in the end. And the net benefit will favor the Church.

  3. I believe there is a verse in the Book of Mormon that warns one about making light of it. That is why they turn the other cheek.. You will get it in the end… I assume that’s just what you want.

  4. Don’t worry Mustafa, there are those at there who wouldn’t turn the other cheek if the Book of Mormon was disrespected in their presence.
    Be glad, Mr. Holden, that I wasn’t the missionary that visited you that day.

  5. Wow, Mustafa has fatwa envy. Darn it, why do Muslims have all the fun? And then Chris shows the love of Jesus in his heart. If anyone insults his silly book, they are so gonna get it! Because god can’t take care of himself. He needs tough guys like Chris to protect Him. But when you get right down to it these guys are just 2 victims of an old con. That Joseph Smith, what a kidder.

  7. This author probably wouldn’t dream of doing such a thing with a Koran, nor would he dream of treating a Catholic priest or Orthodox Rabbi with such disrespect. Yet Mormons, Muslims, Orthodox Jews, and Catholics all have the same position when it comes to gay marriage. There’s a double standard when it comes to Mormonism and there probably always will be. People like Holden just aren’t smart enough to realize what they’re doing.

  9. Awww..if only you had your facts right. Then someone might take you seriously. I’ve never seen a mormon missionary on a 3-year mission. There’s something to be said for credibility. Which has more to do with why prop 8 passed and less to do with the mormons. Anger, taunting and immaturity won’t do much for your “cause” but will cause others to take the mormons more seriously. Keep up the good work.

  10. Yes, Jeremy, people like Dominic who don’t need an invented rule-book to live happy productive lives are the ones who aren’t “smart enough”.

    Sheep, listen up, religion was invented as s form of social control.

  11. No offense, dude, but while you are congratualting yourself for the the tongue-lashing-induced welts you believe you have inflicted, Elders Guthrie and Leatham have moved on to more meaningful activities. I highly doubt your encounter with them will be a blip on the radar screen of thier mission. Glad it was a mjor event for you, though.

  13. Many of the doctrines of Mormonism aren’t derivable from the Book of Mormon, so to point out that it contains no passages against homosexuality is to make an irrelevant point.

  14. “Thy seed also had been as the sand; the offspring of thy bowels like the gravel thereof….”

    Guess what? That passage is a quote from the book of Isaiah in the Bible. So the insults you directed at the Book of Mormon are actually directed at the Bible.

  15. Well.

    Most of these comments sound like they have come from a bunch of drones. Jesus. He’s only shitting on your religion because ya’ll have funded a major initiative to strip human beings of their rights. You’ve tried to impose your beliefs on groups of people that do not share them via the law while continuing to undermine the separation of church and state laid out by the founding fathers. And please stop threatening other people with hell, nothing sounds more laughable. The only people your proselytizing works on are the weak, lonely, and the downtrodden. So stop trying to fuck with other people and poison their minds and stop trying to spread hate and bigotry. Love your neighbor. I do not care if someone is Mormon, Muslim, Catholic, Sheik, or whatever. But I do care when they try and hurt or undermine others rights with the pushing of their beliefs.

    Alluding to wiping your ass with the Book of Mormon is clearly disrespectful and I do not condone it. But to infringe on someone’s rights is more than an insult, it’s more than name calling. The execution of a complex plan that lead to the passing of Prop. 8 by the LDS Church is shameful. Shame on all of you who helped it come to pass.

    Everybody needs to take a step back and not be so intrusive into the lives of others. LDS people, chill the fuck out and stop threatening people with a lifestyle you might not understand or agree with. And gay dudes, stop making fun of Mormons because it is way too easy.

  16. Oh, pleez. It’s the same god, only different doctrine. Differences can be squared away through adult communication. Those that cannot express themselves without ad hominum attacks or threats of violence continue to be a bane on the human race. Get over this provocative article, all of you.

  17. What a diverse range of comments.

    Coming from a former Mormon (thank whatever god exists) I think the article is brilliant. It would have only been better if Dominic had discussed his love for the movie, Latter Days.

    “The book makes him feel good”. I read great fiction that leaves an imprint for years.

    The poor boys don’t know what to say because they are puppets. Daisy’s right…sheep.

  18. Give the mormons a break. It is the PEOPLE of California, mainly OBAMA voters, who passed prop 8. If the ultra-liberals that came out to vote don’t want gay marriage, who does? The evangelicals? This is going to take some time, stop being so impatient!

  19. Well done!
    I’ve converted at least 10 Jehovah’s Witnesses, gotten an apology from many Mormons who now agree with me and caused deep doubts among Muslim friends.

    Keep up the good work.

  20. I think Everybody Calm Down is the one who needs to calm down. I count precisely 0 comments that threatened anyone with hell or physical harm. Leaving judgment in God’s hands is not threatening someone with hell, and saying “you better be glad I was not there” is far from a physical threat. So calm down, Calm Down.

  22. 20 year old clean cut Mormon boys show up at my house?

    The hot tub will be ready and I’ll have some chilled grey goose.

    I have bike locks too.

  23. Entertaining blog post.

    Unfortunately for the gay rights movement the scapegoating of Mormons for voting as a populace has been done before and didn’t stop them in Missouri, Ohio, Illinois or Utah.

    I just hope those within the LGBLTBBQ movement don’t continue their version of 21st century mob justice and keep pushing to deny citizens of any faith their first amendment right to freedom of religion or freedom to vote and amend the constitution. Those freedoms are far greater civil rights than a marriage license – which after all is a privilege and not a right, but that’s neither here nor there. Maybe next decade we’ll have blind people demanding their right to a driver’s license! DRIVER’s EQUALITY!

  24. Way to go! You took an experience that, if it did anything at all, made you feel superior for a few minutes, and did the only thing you could do with that – bragged. I’m so glad to know that heroes such as yourself are protecting the rest of us from the evils of Mormonism.

  25. Here’s a news flash. There are about 750,000 mormons in California. The state has a total population of over 36,000,000. Mormons make up 2% of Californians. Now why is it that they are the only ones taking the blame on this? Secondly, Mr. Holden, you wasted the time and money(many missionaries fund their own missions)of these two young men who have absolutely no power over church doctrine or policy. Congratulations on accomplishing nothing but spreading your own bigotry.

  26. Tyler and others: LDSers should know how their blind allegiance to whatever crusty old man is making proclamations lands in the real world, on real people. If it makes the missionaries feel bad, well, they can always read the Book of Mormon and feel good again.

    Re: claims of Dominic’s bigotry: When same-sex marriage supporters fund an initiative to strip Mormons of actual rights (not just their “rights” to deprive others of equal rights) , then you can claim retaliatory bigotry.

    (Prior ramblings on the subject here and here.)

  27. First, to the writer. Brilliant! Having grown up Fundi. I can say with assurance that many of these people think what they think simply because they have never been challenged to critically consider it. A tool such as this that turns them into a captive audience for the truth, and forces them to actually talk about it, is an excellent idea.

  28. Oh, and to the individual who thinks the writer was ‘lucky they didn’t have him as a missionary’. Wow, threatening people whose home you wish to enter. You Mormons do like to go on about how peaceful you are. Thanks to you, we get our daily reminder that this is simply not the case.

  29. I am abisexual mormon teen, and I’m out publicaly inside and outside of the church. But I can tell you as a member that sure their beliefs go against mine, but they don’t attack me nor do they treat me any differnt;y than they do others. The fact is that people are all to willing to attack the church that can’t fight back rather than every other church and organization that contributed to the passing of prop 8. And your facts are pretty wrong such as the fact that they go out for 2 years, and that scripture you used is so taken out of context it isn’t even funny and it’s from 3rd nephi… Your attacks on the chuch isn’t going to help us to overturn Prop 8, so grow up and actually try to help us…

  30. Getting missionary boys two at a time to learn how hurtful Proposition 8 has been to gay and lesbian families is a great idea. Maybe the missionary boys will go home not remembering a word that’s been said to them. However maybe they’ll go home having met openly gay people and realize that their religious beliefs don’t have to be the civil law of the land.

    As a previous poster said, even if only a minority of the people Mormon missionaries talk to convert to Mormonism, it’s great for the LDS Church. Well the same thing works in reverse. Even if only a minority of the missionary boys learn some acceptance for their gay and lesbian neighbors’ right to have different beliefs and to have equal marriage rights, that’s a good thing.

  34. Dom; You’ll have to pump your game up a couple of notches to even qualify as a ‘juvenile prank’.
    If you are buttsore because you think the Mormons stiffed you on Prop8 this has to be about the most pathetic response imaginable.
    Time (magazine) estimated the Mormon Churches assets at $30 Billion over 10 years ago.
    If 2% of the USA is gay and each and every diligent devious little queer orders a book that costs 50¢ (the missionaries pay there own way so their labor doesn’t cost the church…) you will have whacked the Evil Empire to the tune of .01% of it’s 1996 value.
    THAT’LL SHOW’EM NOT TO MESS WITH QUEER NATION!!!!

    No wonder you lost in California (TWICE)
    You outnumber Mormons there 10 to 1 but with this kind of tactics you won’t be hearing wedding bells for quite some time…

    Maybe you could call Mormon HQ and ask if their refrigerator is ‘running’.
    You prankster.

  35. The only miracle here is that more people believe in the con of Joseph Smith than the latter-day con of L. Ron Hubbard. They’re just equally nasty when you challenge their income stream.

  36. Joseph Smith found some gold tablets on which the lost gospel was written and yet they were assimilated by the angel Moron-I before the find could be verified??

    In the inimitable light verse of Matt Stone and Trey Parker: Dumb-dumb-dumb-dumb…

  37. The things I appreciate the most about the mormon cult is its rich history of mindless bloodshed and predatory sexual blackmail. In addition to that, Salt Lake City is a wonderful place to experience reverse-Stendhal Syndrome.

  39. The Mormon Church, like every other big box church, is all about the tithe. Members and their money are tapped to lobby for standardizing marriage laws AND closed adoption laws. These efforts have nothing to do with divine retribution.

    For a good time, look up Ray Langenbach’s performance piece from the 80s. He invited missionaries to his home and went along with conversion for a month. It’s Mormonism as BDSM experiment.

  41. “Mustafa” and “Chris”, you’re both going to hell for reading this liberal anti-religious blog. Just thought you’d like to know.

  42. Well, apparently the Christian Victim Complex has a specific offshoot in the LDS.

    Which is weird because they’re not really Christians. Like Catholics. They’re not Christians either.

  43. Measures to restrict gay/lesbian marriage passed in two other states (other than CA) on the same election day as Proposition 8. The LDS church had expended no real effort in those state contests, yet they passed without “Mormon support.”

    Clearly those with a gay agenda have more to worry about than Mormons. Mormons just make an easy target to vent their frustrations.

  44. It’s always entertaining to see the Religious Right use the “We’re not as bad as Islamic Fundamentalists” argument.

    A: Just because you are less wrong than someone else doesn’t make you right.

    B: For decades, the only people who gave a shit about Islamic Fundamentalists horrible civil rights violations were feminists, gay rights activists, and communists. Aside from hating the Iranians, Right Wing America loved the heck out Islamic theocrats.

    C: Gay people are well aware of the death sentence that awaits them if Islamic fundamentalists were in control here. It stems from the same scriptural source as the death sentence that the Christian Theocrats would impose if given the chance.

  45. To the Mormons: You paint a target on your chest during hunting season, don’t be surprised when somebody takes aim.

    And Jessem, you’re a gay, out Mormon teen? No Temple for you. Ever.

  46. I don’t know where str8isthepath has been hiding all this time, but we were visited by two scrubbed-n-shiny Mormon missionaries on Thursday evening. My housemate answered the doorbell, and was polite, but made it clear that their doctrine had done actual and potential harm to our families and they were not welcome.

  47. Actually California made THIRTY states that have banned gay marriage, usually in the state Constitution, often also banning civil union as well and specifically not recognizing civil unions from other states to boot. And these measures pass by up to 80%. And gay marriage has NEVER won a state vote (0-30, if you’re keeping score; even worse than the Huskies- eh?)
    And the Mormons had nothing to do with 29 of those states.

    It is hysterical that Savage and his ditto-heads got so PMS about Prop 8, where have they been for 10 years?
    And blaming the Mormons? They are 1% of California. What about the blacks and Catholics and Evangelicals and Hispanics etc etc etc?

    Order a Mormon book.
    I guess.
    If it makes you feel clever.

  48. These boys go door to door hoping for the chance to try to convince others to share their beliefs. Sounds like Dominic played the exact same game, except he had them come to him, and his beliefs aren’t based on claims of magic.

    Seems fair to me. Play on.

  50. And no, we did not call first and ask them to deliver a Book of Mormon — they showed up uninvited.

    The Mormons are quite properly targets of outrage in California because of their deep involvement in the Prop. 8 campaign. They bussed people in from out of state, they set up phone banks, they contributed large amounts of money and time to the effort here, and they did it here because the Catholic Bishop of San Francisco used to be the Bishop of Salt Lake City and has an excellent working relationship with the LDS leadership, whom he called on specifically to join him in defeating marriage equality. They didn’t bother to get involved in the three other state contests over similar legislation because they knew those three other states were already so blindly fundamentalist in their voting habits that they didn’t have to worry about losing the precious sanctity of marriage there.

  51. @Jeremy: I believe he’s going after the Mormons right now because their church encouraged their members to support Prop 8. I for one didn’t hear anything about the Muslims, Orthodox Jews, and Catholics supporting this bill with the fervent nature of the Mormon church.Can’t go after all religions if all those religions didn’t so outwardly support it. I’m sure he doesn’t agree with those religions either, but that wasn’t the point of this article.

  52. Also, let’s compare threats.

    Missionaries: “If you don’t believe my stories you’ll be punished with fire and pain and endless unimaginable torment and excruciating suffering for ever and ever and ever.”

    Dominic: “That book you gave me? I’m gonna get poop on it.”

    Can we consider degrees of rudeness?

  54. “The Book of More-Men”? Did you come up with that yourself? Congratulations Dominic, you are the cleverest person on the planet!

  55. I got a copy of their moronic “holy” book, too. It’s written in a poor imitation of the language of the KJV of the Bible, done up by someone with a tin ear for Early Modern English, a lousy sense of dialogue, and no ability to spin a decent yarn.

  56. I have rolled joints with it. I specifically found pages with passages that included the words fire and smoke. It was awesome.

  57. Bug
    The Catholic Church recruited the Mormons; the Orthodox Jews also worked for Prop 8, Muslins kill homosexuals, or haven’t you heard.
    Not surprised you don’t know: bigotry is fueled by ignorance and hate; Prop 8 has been an excuse for white yuppie homos to indulge their bigotry against blacks and Mormons.

  58. “They didn’t bother to get involved in the three other state contests over similar legislation because they knew those three other states were already so blindly fundamentalist in their voting habits that they didn’t have to worry about losing the precious sanctity of marriage there. “
    So hating the Mormons is a selective blinders-on reaction to the wave of states banning gay marriage.
    Not a strategy for winning, doesn’t even address the problem; but I guess it makes some folks feel better.

  60. I think exposing young missionaries to as many gay people as possible is an excellent idea. I grew up non-mormon in suburban Utah. I was anti-religious, but I was also somewhat homophobic. I didn’t meet actual gay people until I was in college and started hanging out in SLC. I found out gay guys weren’t out to seduce me or lure me back to their homes. I found out gay people were people just trying to get through life, just like me.

    Most of these 19 and 20 year old kids have also not been around gay people. So talk to them. Say hello. While on their missions they are in the deepest part of their brainwashing. But I guarantee you once they see how real people and real families are being affected, some of them will will soften their stance on gay issues.

    I send all my mormon friends back in Utah links to that flickr site with gays asking ‘please, don’t divorce us.’ http://www.flickr.com/photos/couragecamp…

  61. Mormons are especially creepy. Smiling robots that tell you God loves you when all you want to do is walk down the damn street without being accosted by religious idiots…Kinda like Christians and Scientologists.

  62. Squash wrote, “Prop 8 has been an excuse for white yuppie homos to indulge their bigotry against Mormons.”

    Yes, and arson is an excuse for firemen to indulge their bigotry against fire.

    Raising millions of dollars to legislate discrimination is bigotry. Responding with anger to bigots raising millions of dollars to legislate discrimination is not.

    Apparently, in your world, being upset is the exact same thing as passing a ballot initiative to deprive a minority group of equal rights. How nice and simple for you.

  63. Response to Just Saying-

    You are right, the Pope sucks, but you can’t throw the baby out with the bath water though.

    I am openly gay and am welcomed whole heartily into the Catholic Church!

    Maybe you should come someday — changes happen from the inside first with the Catholic Church.

  64. To HA HA:

    Refute the claim, please, and show your work.

    Otherwise, STFU.

    I don’t claim superior intellect, just smarts enough to know the truth when it slaps me in the face.

    You?

  68. Cults like Mormonism and Catholicism – particularly Roman Catholicism – detract from the real message of Jesus Christ.

    Jesus didn’t need a bunch of statues or any fancy underwear, nor did he “reappear” on Earth after his glorious ascension into Heaven. The word of the Holy Bible is all he ever needed, thank you very much.

    These young Mormons are cultists, just as sure as the kids at Seattle U are. But nobody will say it because the Mormons own Coca-Cola and Safeway.

  69. Wow, you’ve got some serious issues. It’s no wonder you have to write for the Stranger; no legit periodical would take your writing as professional, unbiased, or intelligent. Your obvious hatred and religious bigotry is disgusting.

  70. David Schmader wrote: “Raising millions of dollars to legislate discrimination is bigotry. Responding with anger to bigots raising millions of dollars to legislate discrimination is not.”

    No, you don’t get it. Being angry and publically calling out the Mormon Church for their involvement is completely reasonable and commendable. Inviting Mormon missionaries into your home to talk about it is also commendable. Shitting on everything they find sacred, whether or not it has any connection to their position on gay marriage, is just bigotry. There were almost certainly some Mormon insiders who were open to your cause, but why should they engage in dialogue with someone who calls them “morons”, repeatedly makes jokes about “magic undies”, jokes about shitting on their scripture, etc. Way to choose war instead of diplomacy.

  72. firstly to “Be washed in the blood of the lamb” Jesus reapears in the bible as well… after three days… And to Ex-mormon, I understand that you may have issues with the church that led you to leave it and I don’t blame you for that and I am sorry. I do not blindly follow my faith and very nearly left the church when I found out about involvment in Prop 8 not because it went against my rights but because it went against my beliefs that church and state should be seperate. And I have not been banned from the Temple in fact I attend every other month with my family to complete temple work. My only issue with this artle just so that you all know is that I’m tired of those of us in the homosexual community that sit around sobbing and pointing fingers at “The mormons” or the cathohlics or the who gives a damns, when we should be out there trying to change peoples minds about us. Rather than seem like a bunch of pathetic people lets show people that we deserve rights (I am not saying through Violence) but the woman did it.. the blacks did it.. why can’;t we? and they sure as hell didn’t just stand around crying…

  73. why can’t we all just be okay?

    what’s the fucking deal with all the goddamn hate.

    too much, I say. learn to pay attention to your own fucking lives a little more, and maybe, just maybe: we’d all get some things done.

    psh. whatever.

  74. We, the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, solemnly proclaim that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God and that the family is central to the Creator’s plan for the eternal destiny of His children.

    All human beings—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.

    In the premortal realm, spirit sons and daughters knew and worshipped God as their Eternal Father and accepted His plan by which His children could obtain a physical body and gain earthly experience to progress toward perfection and ultimately realize their divine destiny as heirs of eternal life. The divine plan of happiness enables family relationships to be perpetuated beyond the grave. Sacred ordinances and covenants available in holy temples make it possible for individuals to return to the presence of God and for families to be united eternally.

    The first commandment that God gave to Adam and Eve pertained to their potential for parenthood as husband and wife. We declare that God’s commandment for His children to multiply and replenish the earth remains in force. We further declare that God has commanded that the sacred powers of procreation are to be employed only between man and woman, lawfully wedded as husband and wife.

    We declare the means by which mortal life is created to be divinely appointed. We affirm the sanctity of life and of its importance in God’s eternal plan.

    Husband and wife have a solemn responsibility to love and care for each other and for their children. “Children are an heritage of the Lord” (Psalm 127:3). Parents have a sacred duty to rear their children in love and righteousness, to provide for their physical and spiritual needs, and to teach them to love and serve one another, observe the commandments of God, and be law-abiding citizens wherever they live. Husbands and wives—mothers and fathers—will be held accountable before God for the discharge of these obligations.

    The family is ordained of God. Marriage between man and woman is essential to His eternal plan. Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony, and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity. Happiness in family life is most likely to be achieved when founded upon the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ. Successful marriages and families are established and maintained on principles of faith, prayer, repentance, forgiveness, respect, love, compassion, work, and wholesome recreational activities. By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners. Disability, death, or other circumstances may necessitate individual adaptation. Extended families should lend support when needed.

    We warn that individuals who violate covenants of chastity, who abuse spouse or offspring, or who fail to fulfill family responsibilities will one day stand accountable before God. Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets.

    We call upon responsible citizens and officers of government everywhere to promote those measures designed to maintain and strengthen the family as the fundamental unit of society.

    This proclamation was read by President Gordon B. Hinckley as part of his message at the General Relief Society Meeting held September 23, 1995, in Salt Lake City, Utah.

  75. What I learned from this comment section: Mormons are creepy, angry, hateful and scared. Oh, and stupid. Hey, wait a second — I knew all that already!

    Instead of lashing out yet again, why not just let go of your silly fantasy life and let decent people be?

    I’m glad you’re losing this and I’m glad you’re losing it without a shred of grace. Watching the cultists squirm is very gratifying. I’d say I’d hope you’d learn something from it, but I don’t live in a fantasy land myself, so I’ll settle for your humiliation, instead.

    But other people will leave your cult or not be sucked into it because of this, so please, please, please keep up the kicking and screaming.

  77. Religion was also created for people too unimaginative or lazy to create meaning in their lives – they want it store bought, off the shelf, second hand, identical to everyone else’s meaning. Cheap, or free, in the case of the Mormons.

  80. For those who haven’t checked their history, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is a religion, not a cult. It was founded in 1830 in the state of New York. For those who say we’re not christians, look at the name of our church. Is that clear enough for you?

  81. to Tyler A.

    Look up the International Church of Christ, and then tell me if throwing JC’s name in your title makes you any less culty or any more christian.

  82. It’s not a bad idea to confront Mormons and others who proselytize. Maybe those who are offended by proseylitizing (as I am) should tell the Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, & Evangelical Christians to back off and focus on their own salvation. Orthodox Jews don’t proselytize so they don’t bother me and I’ve simply told the Lubovich to stay away since I’ll never convert. But, for some reason, the Lubovich don’t bother me as much, perhaps because they’re really just trying to teach secular Jews about their own religion whereas these other groups foist their beliefs on us. However, anyone who proselytizes is guilty of hubris: thinking their way is better, their lives are uniformly better than the lives of “unbelievers”, and that they are more morally righteous. I’ve met many fine religious people who don’t do this and I appreciate the respect they have for others’ belief systems. Secular people might spew as much hate as the believers on blogs but in real life, no atheist has come up to me to convert me.
    In terms of Prop 8, this is not a bad way to get Mormons into our homes to explain how much they have injured the gay community, a community they claim to “love”.

  83. It’s not a bad idea to confront Mormons and others who proselytize. Maybe those who are offended by proseylitizing (as I am) should tell the Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, & Evangelical Christians to back off and focus on their own salvation. Orthodox Jews don’t proselytize so they don’t bother me and I’ve simply told the Lubovich to stay away since I’ll never convert. But, for some reason, the Lubovich don’t bother me as much, perhaps because they’re really just trying to teach secular Jews about their own religion whereas these other groups foist their beliefs on us. However, anyone who proselytizes is guilty of hubris: thinking their way is better, their lives are uniformly better than the lives of “unbelievers”, and that they are more morally righteous. I’ve met many fine religious people who don’t do this and I appreciate the respect they have for others’ belief systems. Secular people might spew as much hate as the believers on blogs but in real life, no atheist has come up to me to convert me.
    In terms of Prop 8, this is not a bad way to get Mormons into our homes to explain how much they have injured the gay community, a community they claim to “love”.

  84. Mustafa. I have met and spken with dozens of Muslims whose faith in Allahh transcends any stupid remark made by a non-believer. Any so-called Islamist who would pick up a weapon to kill a non believer, would just as soon to pick up a weapon to kill someone for the money in their pocket or the color of thrit skin. Because that person is not a Muslim that person is a murderer. You need to spend less time hating and more time praying.

  86. Hey Mormons. You can believe what ever you want about marriage and gays and gold plates and whatever. What you can’t do is deny rights given by the STATE to a certain group of people because they disagree with you. You would think a group once persecuted for their ideas about marriage would get this.

    I’m real sorry your families have been damaged by gay marriages in California and Massachusetts (how exactly have you been threatened, again?) but keep your church out of legislation.

    I think Dan Savage said it best when he said he just wants the same legal recognition from the government for his long term, committed relationship that was given to Brittney Spears and her 1st marriage that lasted all of 72 hours.

  87. If someone doesn’t care to share their faith with you they either don’t give a crap about their faith or don’t give a crap about you (or both)

  89. Hey Seatattle.

    You’ve got it all backwards.

    The STATE didn’t give you marriage, one judge did (indian giver, at that..)
    The STATE voted (TWICE, in fact) to ban gay marriage.
    Keep YOUR religious beliefs out of our State Constitution, please.

    (ps: Mormons are 1% of California. Are you scared of your own shadow, too?)

  91. Of course, it will be a good start when we quit letting people pass bullshit mythology (like being gay isn’t a choice) as medical science.

  92. Seriously, what he did was both hilarious and poignant. Somebody has to make religious people feel bad for ruining other people’s LIVES.

  93. I’m sorry, Brooklyngirl, I didn’t catch that; could you say it one more time?
    Posted by what?

    What do you need mean, what?

    If someone doesn’t care to share their faith with you they either don’t give a crap about their faith or don’t give a crap about you (or both)
    Posted by Paul

    I completely disagree, Paul. While my Christian friends probably do think I’m going to hell, they respect me enough not to say it. When we talk about religion, but it’s a 2 way discussion; no one’s trying to convert anybody. It’s possible to disagree without being disagreeable. It’s possible to love one another, even if we don’t completely agree with each other’s choices in life.

    Also, it’s possible to share one’s faith without proselytizing. My Christian friends talk about what Jesus has done for them without saying I need to believe in him, too.

    We all come closer to Enlightenment (hopefully) in different ways.

  94. @Calinformer: Actually, no. As the Constitution explicitly states, human rights are inalienable and inherent. They are not granted by judges and cannot be taken away by politicians. That’s actually the crux of the Constitutional argument: the inherent human right to equal treatment under the law.

    In fact, that’s why the judges in the case will strike down Prop 8: because it violates the Constitution.

  95. Actually I agree totally, Brooklyngirl.
    If someone feels their faith helps them have a happier life they usually will find a way to (pleasantly) share that with their friends, in a non-obnoxious non-intrusive way. Some people give religion a bad name but it actually is a positive force in many people’s lives. That is something that doesn’t get much (any?) exposure on slog…

  96. Actually, yes-
    The California Constitution explicitly states that human rights are inalienable and inherent. It does not state that gay marriage is. Only in June 2008 did judges grant an invented ‘right’ to gay marriage (knowing the move faced likely rejection by voters in Nov)
    Don’t count on your left wing thug dictator judges again, however- they had a chance to throw Prop 8 off the ballot before it was voted on but did not.

  97. If someone really thinks you’re going to hell and they don’t bring it up, it is not because they respect you.
    they, for whatever reason, decided it wasn’t worth the hassle, awkwardness, etc.
    or they don’t care if you go to hell.
    if a ‘friend’ saw me about to step into an empty elevator shaft and fall to my death would they show their ‘respect’ by letting me die?
    friends don’t let friends go to hell!

  98. @Calinformer: I think the Bill of Rights trumps California’s Constitution. Equal treatment under the law is the law, according to the framers of the Constitution (I guess they were dictators, too?) Prop 8 expressly denies equal treatment to an identifiable group, and it’s going down.

  101. Mormonism is an easier target for ridicule, because unlike Christianity or Islam it hasn’t been around that long. Three of the major religions all stem from Abraham, and have been around long enough to undergo centuries of changes, interpretations and alterations.
    To me this article was about confronting someone directly, who understood the Mormon faith, and asking direct questions. All religions have their faults, the Dalai Lama wouldn’t condone a homosexual relationship, but he’s not saying their immoral. Its recognizing not one’s religion, but their humanity. The author doesn’t say all Mormons are bad; he’s simply saying “I think this is crap, and they cost hundreds of perfectly fine gay couples the right to marry.” Is there suddenly something wrong with standing up for one’s ideals?

  102. Religious assholes have ruined the world for me and everyone else that just want to live peaceful lives. Fuck you scumbags, eat shit and die. Nothing need be said beyond that.

  103. I was visiting a friend when a couple of Elders came to the door. I was surprised at her response. She told them straight out, you guys gave up polygamy so we’d let you join America and you gave up your bigotry so you’d fit in–you sell out your faith pretty easily. She said, in another 20 years you might even be ready to welcome a Lesbian like me into the fold. Come back and see me then, and for God’s sake, grow a backbone!

  105. Zoe
    Everyone is treated equally at present.
    Gays want special treatment and special privileges- currently NO ONE may marry their own gender, gays want to carve out a special category for themselves.
    The American people see it very clearly. Obama sees it. Don’t expect to see Obama appoint judges who will backstab the American people, either.
    (ask Rick Warren)
    If you folks were smart you would work for ‘civil union’ that has all the protections of marriage.
    That is achievable.
    You won’t win the ‘marriage’ battle but will piss off Obama and a lot of Americans who otherwise are very supportive of the gay agenda.

  107. Congratulations to Mr. Holden for doing what no one else could! First, he lied to trick a church organization into sending him free stuff. That takes some guts. Then, in the face of adversity itself, he found the courage to invite two 19yo kids into his home, that had nothing to do with the vote, and mock them. And finally when all seemed lost, he pulled it all together to write an error-ridden article about it. Yo that’s hardcore dawg!

    The actions by the author were ridiculous and constituted nothing more than a temper tantrum, and bordered on harassment. And the focus of the post-Prop 8 vote is ignorant. Yes, many members of the LDS church gave their time and money to the proposition. There is however a difference between supporting the prop and actually VOTING for the prop. The number of Mormons were not great enough to pass it on their own. The vote was the state of California, all religions, races, and backgrounds, making their feelings felt about marriage. I see many “articles” like this ignoring the fact that the majority of voting minorities and senior citizens voted in favor of Prop 8. I wonder how the author would have looked inviting two elderly people or two black people into his home and mocking them?

    And to those that think that his calling out people all around to do this same thing will convert Mormons to your side, get a clue. I’m Mormon and I have gay friends and I STILL support Prop 8. I also have friends that do drugs, it doesn’t mean I’m going to support their desire to legalize marijuana. You can be friends with a person and not agree with their lifestyle. Supporting Prop 8 doesn’t make one naive, or “never known a gay person”, or simply mean. Sometimes it’s simply a person standing up for what they believe is right, whether you share that same belief or not.

    I’ve got to say I was surprised by the number of people commenting and speaking out against the article. Given the liberal nature of the area and the publication, I expected the same result. I was glad to see people of varying religions, and even other gays, recognizing the foolishness of the author.

  108. Calinformer,

    Heterosexuals have the right to marry the person of their choice (as long as that person is old enough and not currently married to someone else). Why is this a “special” right for gays and not for straights?

    btw, I am a straight white woman married to a black man, a marriage that would have been illegal in many states in the past. Those laws were overturned because they were unjust, and for the record, I believe that laws against gay marriage are equally unjust.

  110. All in all a ban on gay marriage is unconstitutional. It is a fundamental part of the United States to create a separation of Church and State. Any State ruling on gay marriage violates this. Every religious institution has the right to formulate their own stance on gay marriage, but, following the Constitution, no government of the US can produce or enforce that interpretation.

    Learn the ethics of your own country. It’s the closed minded, uninformed, religious fanatics that drive people to ridiculous measures, such as harassing some missionaries. If religion did not hold such a strong hand on the government, formal political action could be taken to battle the injustice of gay marriage.

    You may belong to a church, a mosque, a synagogue, a temple, or an independent self. But, we all belong to the United States and no sub-community of that has the right to insert their values into my, your, our country.

  111. hey J!

    Heterosexuals do have the right to marry the person of their choice (as long as that person is old enough and not currently married to someone else AND IS THE OPPOSITE GENDER).

    GAYS HAVE ALL THOSE SAME RIGHTS

    No one is allowed to marry their own gender.
    Heterosexuals are not getting some right that is denied gays.

    Gays want to carve out a special new never-before-seen category of ‘marriage’ for themselves.

    No thanks.

    Consider Civil Union.

  112. We all belong to the United States and no sub-community of that has the right to insert their values into my, your, our country.

    So homosexuals, please quit trying to FORCE your secular humanist religious views of marriage out of OUR Constitutions, laws and schools.

    thank you

  113. All this talk of going to hell. Mormons don’t believe in hell. Good Mormons just get better accommodations in the afterlife. There you are sitting there playing poker with your best buds in the Telestial Kingdom and then some lame ass temple worker goes and gets baptized in your name and suddenly you’re sucked into the Celestial Kingdom. You look around think how boring it looks and then realize that you’re not going to be able to clean out your friends pockets with the straight flush you were holding.

  114. sorry, let’s try again….

    We all belong to the United States and no sub-community of that has the right to insert their values into my, your, our country.

    So homosexuals, please quit trying to FORCE your secular humanist religious views of marriage INTO OUR Constitutions, laws and schools.

    thank you

  115. >>>> “All in all a ban on gay marriage is unconstitutional.”

    Wow, that’s funny.
    Somebody forgot to tell us.
    For 230 years.
    You’d think it would have come up before.

    Get real.
    Homosexual ‘marriage’ is not a Constitutional right. (oh wait- there it is, right after the ‘right’ to slaughter you unborn children! my bad…)
    (not really)

    Homosexuals are now trying to force their religious interpretation of marriage on the entire nation.

    Keep your religious beliefs out of my state government.

  116. My sister converted to Mormonism for a while. (She later came to her senses when her loving Mormon husband thought beating his wife was holy) The best thing about that time was the missionaries. They’d come over for holiday dinners. I was able to get more than one into the sack.

  117. I guess someone forgot to tell us that slavery was wrong and that women have voting rights until it came up several decades after the constitution was instated. 😉

    Also, anyone who is actively trying to convert people to their cause is wasting their time here. The internets are not conducive to rational debate.

  118. Cali voter, will you have to marry someone of the same sex? Will you have to attend a gay wedding?

    If someone eats kosher, are they forcing their beliefs on you? Do you lay awake at night worrying about what Jews are eating?

    If you don’t care about what people of other beliefs eat, why do you care who they marry? How does it affect you personally? Will you leave your spouse? Will you love your other half less? Exactly how will gay marriage cause you harm?

  119. Just FYI – young men commit to only years. Sister missionaries work in the field for 18 months. The only three year missions are held by mission presidents, who are responsible for running the mission, not delivering Book of Mormons.

    Also, the plates that Joseph Smith discovered were seen by other people. There are two statements written by different witnesses at the front of the Book of Mormon. Most of the witnesses left the Mormon church; however, none would ever deny that they saw those plates.

    I thought it was interesting…

  120. Hey Rob,
    Thanks for sharing the sad story about your sad sister (again)
    and your ‘exploits’ with missionaries (again; eyes rolling this time)
    and the totally yummy but irrelevant ‘kosher’ analogies (again).
    We’ve got them memorized but never tire of hearing them!!

  121. “We all belong to the United States and no sub-community of that has the right to insert their values into my, your, our country.”

    Yeah, like abolitionists and supporters of women’s suffrage. Who the hell did those troublemakers think they were?

    Sorry, I momentarily forgot the real, traditional meaning of marriage: the transfer of property (bride) from her father to her husband. Anything else would be unnatural!

  122. I am gay and not religious, and I find this piece offensive. I agree with the idea of challenging Mormons to a debate — and anyone else who would deprive any minority group of their civil rights and claim that it’s not discrimination. Our anger is justified. But defacing religious texts out of hatred and resentment of an entire group is also bigotry. How sad and ineffective.

  125. “Heterosexuals do have the right to marry the person of their choice (as long as that person is old enough and not currently married to someone else AND IS THE OPPOSITE GENDER).”

    I believe you mean of the opposite sex. Sex and gender don’t always match. Actually, in that case, what would count? The person’s physical sex or their gender identity?

    The gay marriage ban means that a portion of the community does not have the right to marry the partner of their choice. Having the “right” to marry someone you aren’t attracted to isn’t much of a right.

    “Also, anyone who is actively trying to convert people to their cause is wasting their time here. The internets are not conducive to rational debate.”

    Probably so, but the religious zealots can get so cute when they’re angry.

  128. “If someone really thinks you’re going to hell and they don’t bring it up, it is not because they respect you.
    they, for whatever reason, decided it wasn’t worth the hassle, awkwardness, etc.
    or they don’t care if you go to hell.
    if a ‘friend’ saw me about to step into an empty elevator shaft and fall to my death would they show their ‘respect’ by letting me die?
    friends don’t let friends go to hell!”
    Posted by hell no! we won’t go!

    “Hell no…”, not at all.
    Look, as I understand it, witnessing actually makes quite a lot of sense in one way: how are people going to be saved by Jesus Christ if they don’t know who he is? That’s why, as much as I disagree with a lot of it, missionary work makes sense. People who have never heard of Jesus will go to Hell even though it’s not their fault. Therefore, missionaries are doing a great service because they are paving the way for people to be saved. I get that.
    But I grew up in a Christian culture. I’ve gone to Church more times than synagogue (I’m Jewish). I studied the Bible in school and have read pretty much all of the old testament and about a third of the new testament. I have talked at length to Christians, Jews, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and a bit to Mormons. I know about Jesus and I still am not a believer. Therefore, my Christian friends have done all they can and should do. Their job is not to make me believe in God. Only ‘God’ could do that. Their job is to witness to me, which they have done, as I stated before, in a respectful, personal way.

    Paul,
    Religion has done a whole lotta good for many people. You don’t see much of that on slog. Is that the fault of the atheists here or the believers?

  129. The whole Prop 8 argument makes no sense to me. I thought no Catholic, Mormon, (et al) would accept as “marriage” a piece of paper they got at city hall. “Marriage” is a sacrament that can only be obtained at an altar from a guy in some sort of fancy robe who talks funny and makes hand signals a lot. So, what the hell are we arguing about? Their own argument makes no sense.

  131. Actually, I meant gender, thank you. Sex and gender do match, always; in the real world at least. Biology 101. I realize in the alphabet soup wonderland of GLBT it is fashionable to ignore the facts of life but if one has studied much biology it is not possible to swallow the liberal PC theology.

  132. Dominic,

    I’m LDS (Mormon). I’m straight. I’m also pro-gay-marriage. (Because, who the hell am I to tell someone else who they can/can’t marry?) Moving along…

    Please consider the possibility that being a juvenile prick to your enemies isn’t going to garner the results you’re after. Your actions are only serving to reinforce the problem. (“Hmm… Gay people are jerks.”)

    Instead, I suggest dealing with us like people, instead of “Mormons”. If you get to know us, you might find that we’re pretty normal for a bunch of right wing, nut job cultists. 😉

    Try taking some missionaries out to lunch. Demonstrate how baseless their fears are and befriend them. THAT will leave a lasting impression with a measurable net effect. (“These gay people are really nice to us. Hmm… *PONDER*”)

    Being nice… Like the kamikaze, it’s a tactic of considerable power.

    So… You and your people get started on that and I’ll keep working on the problem from this end. Deal? Fabulous.

    P.S. To the peanut gallery: You don’t like it when people bash your beliefs. I don’t like it when people bash my beliefs. Please stop bashing my religion.

  134. str8isthepath, if only _YOU_ had your facts right. As the author stated, Mormons can serve for up 3 years. “Couple missionaries who serve as the President and Matron of a mission serve for 36 months” (lds.about.com) There’s something to be said of credibility. It must be embarrassing to be wrong on a point you are calling someone out on.

    It seems that every dis’ you poured on the author you are guilty of yourself. (1) Your facts are wrong (2) Taunting and (3) Immaturity hurt your cause

    Nobody likes a hypocrite, especially a mean one.

  135. Three things;
    1. You ALL are going to hell.
    2. Mr. Holden is a ASSHOLE.
    3. Why does ANYONE else care if two people find love and want to share their lives by getting married? I just don’t get it.

  137. Hey genious: The scriptire you quoted from is actually a direct quote from Isaiah, a BIBLE prophet. Also, “proselytize” is not a word. The word is “proselyte.” Your an idiot. The mormons dont deserve this; all the other Christian religions were in on this, too. You have some serious guts…

  138. The book of Mormon is a silly book, and Mormons have the silliest Religion. You gotta love them though, cause they’re mean- assed murdering psychopaths when crossed. Peace Brothers, I have no intention of ordering your silly book, and I won’t do two hot young Mormon Missionary’s in a homo gang bang either.

  139. Califormer,
    Wrong. Sex is physiological, Gender is socially constructed. From Merriam-Webster: Gender…”b: the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex”

  140. Main Entry:
    pros·e·ly·tize Listen to the pronunciation of proselytize
    Pronunciation:
    ˈprä-s(ə-)lə-ˌtīz
    Function:
    verb
    Inflected Form(s):
    pros·e·ly·tized; pros·e·ly·tiz·ing
    Date:
    1679

    intransitive verb 1 : to induce someone to convert to one’s faith 2 : to recruit someone to join one’s party, institution, or cause transitive verb : to recruit or convert especially to a new faith, institution, or cause
    — pros·e·ly·ti·za·tion Listen to the pronunciation of proselytization ˌprä-s(ə-)lə-tə-ˈzā-shən, ˌprä-sə-ˌlī-tə- noun
    — pros·e·ly·tiz·er Listen to the pronunciation of proselytizer ˈprä-s(ə-)lə-ˌtī-zər noun

  141. Mr. Holden, as an American, you are very much entitled to your opinion. That entitlement is a very high honor, and is available to everyone in this country. I respect your ability to inspire fair debate, and I am saddened by those who would silence you. I am certain that they would not like to be silenced in their right to speak. People of all faiths have become so corrupted by their personal ideals, that the true values of their beliefs are forgotten and cast aside with disdain like that of a decomposing corpse. Everyone seems to have forgotten to give the respect and tolerance that they so demand. To ALL of the self-righteous: GET OVER YOURSELF ALREADY, ITS NOT ABOUT YOU! This life is a test and we are all FAILING!

  142. The missionaries that come to my house are quite nice. I like them. I don’t think most of them spend much time thinking about whether or not their religion oppresses others. My beef is with the Mormon church (and all other churches pushing institutionalized homophobia), not the individual missionaries. I think being a jerk to two strangers is a nasty thing to do regardless of why they’re in your house.

  143. I once broke into a Muslim bookshop and pissed all over their collection of Korans. I guess I should feel a little ashamed at being rude, but it was pretty funny and in a way, appropriate.

  144. On the count of three, everyone shout insults at your opponent, intentionally misunderstand them and utterly fail to listen to any reason from the opposition.

    1 – 2 – 3 – GO!

    This is just sad.

  149. Dude this article got seriously trolled.

    10bux says most of the religious fundie posts are actually atheists out for a good trollin’

  150. Eventually people who oppose legal recognition to gay marriage will end up in history’s landfill next to the segregationists, people who opposed biracial marriage, people who opposed women’s rights to vote, and people who opposed the end of slavery. Nice company.

    I know this is little comfort to gays who want the legal rights for their families that are afforded to straight families, but know you are fighting on the side of justice.

    And please prop 8 supporters, how does giving the same legal rights you family enjoys to gay families hurt you? How does denying them these rights help anyone?

  152. I don’t know what all these talk about muslims and christians. Don’t bring christians into this. Mormons are not christians. stop associating us with them.

  153. hey guys, jeesus is coming and is going to kick your ass. the book of marmon is the true book and will open up a time portal to swalllow yoru souls. dont believe me well just read it and then you will find out.

    P.S. I’M LISTENING TO ELECTRIC WIZARD RIGHT NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  154. dude, your article and your attitude are both FUCKED UP!!! for all of us who sincerely hope for gay rights, SHUT UP AND QUIT WRITING THIS GARBAGE!!! we ask for tolerence and acceptance, and you demonstrate the opposite of what we are asking for. SHAME ON YOU!!!

  155. As soon as the Mormans start believing in something more realistic than a spaceman with 800 wives as the Lord and Saviour of us all, then I’ll start taking them seriously.

  159. I have an idea that might make everyone happy!
    Lets get rid of marraige! All the heteros seem to think that we are lucky for having civil unions and that we should be thankful for em… so why not just get rid of marraige and give everyone a civil union?! Weither they be gay, staright, mormon, jewish, mouse or cockroach! Why not?

  160. Hey guys I just found some gold tablets in my front lawn. I deciphered them and a holy voice came into my head and told me I should write a book for all to read.

    The first chapter is about how everyone should donate money to me.

  161. Oh, what Christian love and tolerance – and confidence in their “god” – radiates from comments to this post. Obviously the believers don’t believe themselves, all they want is strength in numbers.

    Like rats.

    Holden, thanks for sharing – I might try it myself!

  162. I’ve had Jehova’s visit me twice at home… Luckily enough, both times they were the same three old women to who I opened the door in my underwear (not knowing who they were). PWNED them on Bible knowledge and on their own contradicting argumentations. They still came back for more, though.

    Hoping they come back soon for a laugh (crosses fingers)

    PS. same applies to all other religions, although at least they don’t wake me up on hangover days.

  165. to the out bi girl. you said you go to the temple? you are either lying to us, or you lied to your bishop because i remember back when i was a kid and was still in the church the bishop asks you if you are involved in any sexual activity and what that activity is. i know that if you told him that you have sex with other girls or even want to have sex with other girls that he is not supposed to give you a temple recommend. so yeah, thanks for defiling the temple along with most everyone else who lies to their bishop to get their recommend.

  166. To Daisy- Every social construct is put in place as social control and that includes liberalism. Social constructs ensure that we act in set ways for our group type, providing a measure of stability to those in power. This is why an average Republican or Democrat will not vote outside of their parties no matter how much they disagree with their parties stance on a subject. I know it’s off subject and I guess it’s directed to anyone who wants to read it, but that’s the truth as I see it. On a side note I was against prop-8 and against a similar proposition that just passed in the state of Florida because they are additions to state constitutions. Amendments to State Constitutions that tell you what you cannot do as apposed to telling you what you have a right to do almost always ends badly. A good example of this are changes to constitutions that were enacted in parts of the west during their inceptions, including such states as Oregon and Washington that forbade African Americans from living there.

  168. Firstly I have a penisXD secondly I never lied as I am still a virgin, therefore in the eyes of the church I haven’t sinned yet. And believe me I would know alot about the churches present day standards on getting into the temple so I don’t appriciate being called a liar or a “difiler”. Being homosexual doesn’t mean that I am sexual active, that is just a closed minded steriotype

  169. OMG, someone insulted a religion and now the Stupids are insulted. Never In Their Lives Have They Heard Such Intolerance.

    Wouldn’t it be wonderful if we lived in a world where it was against the law to criticize religions? That way, they can get away with any crimes and bullshit they wanted, without criticism. Sigh. What a world. Imagine, religion unchecked. That wouldn’t be a problem at all.

  170. You know there are better ways to change Prop 8… instead of sitting on your high horse in you comfy living room staring at some twenty year old clean cut lads trying to make them blush… you could be doing like the 20 something year olds out in front of Westlake center on Saturdays asking people to sign a petition to overturn prop 8. Stop whinning and start working!

  171. Tell us, Chris, what would you have done if the Book of Mormon was disrespected in your presence? I’d like to see you unravel the implied threat of violence in your comment.

  172. Wow, I think that the whole “blame it on the Mormons” game just personifies the ignorance of the author, editors and those of you who are buying into this accusation. The topography of the State of California shows that only 2% of Californians identify themselves as Mormon. This is dwarfed by the whopping 31% of Californians that identify themselves as Catholic and 18% Evangelical Protestants. Somehow I don’t think that the Mormons are to blame for the repeal of proposition 8. Perhaps you should be directing your anger in another direction? This is the beauty of living in a majority rule society! It’s obvious that the majority of Californians, most of them Catholics and Evangelical Protestants were not in favor of this Proposition. I don’t agree with the harassment of any group of people for living there convictions and being responsible, productive members of society. Let this be a lesson to those of you who complain about policys but don’t vote. Perhaps one day majority will rule in your favor. Good Luck!

  175. The people spouting “separation of church and state” need to really study their history more and what the statement means. It does not apply here. The church is not controlling the government in any fashion. The church did not use church funds to promote Prop 8, nor did it obligate members to vote a specific way. It encouraged members to remember their teachings and apply them accordingly. That in no way violates “church and state”. Being composed of citizens, the leaders of churches will take an active interest in the issues and like anyone else, will vote based on their beliefs.

    If people wanted to really solve the issue, it would be to have the state stop issuing marriages, and instead convert over to civil unions for everyone. Straight or gay. Marriages would then only be performed by churches at their discretion. When the government started doing marriages as well, I can assure you the idea that people would want to marry their same gender never crossed their minds back then. That is why there was never specific verbiage used on defining it. The citizens of California, and other states, have remedied that.

    The problem is that even if the state only did civil unions, and churches did marriages, this would still upset people. There are gays out there who would sue for the “right” to get married by a certain church. There was a recent article similar to this about a gay couple that successfully sued to have their union ceremonies on a piece of land owned by a Methodist church. No matter what systems are in place, there will ALWAYS be some gays fighting against it because they don’t like the idea of something they cannot have, regardless of the beliefs behind it. Religions will start to have their rights trampled upon. A line has to be drawn in the sand and Prop 8 drew that line.

    And as for the comments of religion breeding hate, the facts show it’s the other way around. Since Prop 8 passed, the hate has been from those against it. There were packages of white powder sent to the LDS temples in LA and SLC and the Knights of Columbus HQ. Numerous churches in Utah were vandalized. An old lady was shown on YouTube being attacked by anti-Prop 8 protesters when she spoke up. A Book of Mormon was set ablaze on the steps of a church in Colorado. And then you get people like the author of this article. While there is plenty of hate against homosexuals in this country, the hate against those who don’t believe in the lifestyle is much larger and more vocal and becoming more violent. It’s becoming its own special version of “reverse racism”.

  176. I didn’t realize this before but this article is in the books section… which is where I thought they wrote book reviews…. this doesn’t seem like it a review… it seems like some douche trying to make himself into a hero…. Maybe the writer should kerep to topic???

  177. As much as I enjoyed a large portion of your article, I started to cringe when you decided to critique the Book of Mormon. Look, the Torah, the New Testament, the Koran, and certainly the book of Mormon all say some pretty funny things. However, I think you’re crossing a line when you talk about someone’s religious text as being ridiculous and declare it worthy as a tool to wipe yourself with. It’s not right to criticize others’ religion. Criticize their political views? Go right ahead. It’s probably important to note that not all Mormons agree with what the LDS says all the time, just like not all Catholics listen to the pope all the time. That being said, why don’t you try criticizing specifically those who are taking away your rights, rather than insulting entire religions and their faithful – some of which probably agree with you on your views.

  178. gAnon is exactly right when he said “You’re a disgrace to the gay-rights movement. It’s people like you that only hurt our cause for equal rights.”

    The fact of the matter is, most people in this nation are religious, and many of those people who are religious have some sincere concerns, right or wrong, about gay marriage. Clearly, the events of the past few months have done nothing to resolve those concerns, and articles like this only fan the flames. If you want social change, you need to start convincing and stop mocking/condemning. In the end, it is people like you that end up looking like bigots.

  179. Yeah, Mustafa and Jeremy. Mormonism is no dumber than Judaism, other kinds of Christianity, etc, etc. It’s just newer and smaller, so it hasn’t had time to do both the evil and good that it’s older siblings have done. And they haven’t had time to develop much of a culture yet, either. Not much in the way of distinctive music, art, or cuisine, unless you count seagull stuffed with cricket…

    Si

  180. Personally,I am concerned by the nature of these people who are using religion,which is a form of faith and belief to inflict real damage on someone’s mental and physical self’s.
    I am all for faith and religion and I think those can be a beautiful thing but why don’t we just use our constitution to help us guide how our society develops.

  182. I once knew a Mormon so fair,
    His thighs white and firm with no hair,
    His johnson so fine
    When rubbed against mine,
    We really did make quite a pair!

    —
    Many are called, but few are chosen,
    So step right up for your lederhosen.

  183. I was raised in the mormon church until I was old enough to refuse to go, and thankfully I’ve forgotton most of the brain washing bullshit. However, I do remember some of the ridiculous “teachings” of the church — one was that people of color were marked by God as a curse for some fucked up thing their ancestors did to white people!! Even as a small child I knew (instinctively, I guess) that was a load of shit. If religious nuts weren’t so full of hate, us non-fanatic people wouldn’t have any reason hate them right back.

  185. Mustafa, have you ever been to an arab country? widespread homosexuality and pedophilia are 2 of their worst kept secrets. learn something and speak about things you actually know or understand next time. otherwise when you open your mouth some stupid small minded shit might fall out. like it did this time.

    -steven

  186. I know from sad experience that by entering my opinion on this blog site regarding the passing of Proposition 8 in California, many will resort to calling me names and labeling me in an obscene manner. I just have a few points of interest that seem to missing in the entire article. I was raised to have respect for others until they prove unworthy of respect. I was also taught to have tolerance and protect the rights of others that have strong beliefs that are diametrically apposed to mine. What disturbs me greatly is the kind of vile words used in these blogs, they border on the mob mentality. Y’all are obviously brave enough to rip a makeshift cross from and elderly woman’s hands and stomp on it during a demonstration, but certainly not brave enough to demonstrate at a black Baptist church in California? Now, y’all justify and stoop so low as to lie to facilitate your cowardly selves in an ambush for verbal assault on young men fresh out of high school. What’s next, yelling sexually explicit obscenities at pre-school children in the playground of a Catholic daycare center?….. The only terms that come to mind are “Sick” & “Twisted”
    The next time you call someone a bigot, keep in mind that a lifestyle / sexual preference is a choice, not skin color, not ethnic culture and certainly not disability, but a CHOICE. If you want to know bigotry is just come with me back 35 years in a little town called Philadelphia, Neshoba County, Mississippi. I show you what real hatred and bigotry was. I was there, I lived it, I saw it and even smelled it.

  187. Steven:
    You filthy infidel liar!
    The virile Arab man would never defile himself in another man!
    Why would he, when the she goat is such a fetching creature?
    I mean, really!

  188. Please don’t take your bad feelings about the Mormon church out on the missionaries. Growing up in the Mormon religion, I know that these boys only technically have a choice to go on a mission. However, if they don’t go, they are an embarrassment to their family and those in the Mormon faith will look down on them. Be angry at the leaders and make them uncomfortable, but please leave these boys out of it.

  190. Good for you, Brother Holden! Don’t let anyone make you feel bad in the slightest for wasting the Mormon’s time and energy. They have done it to me my whole life. Isn’t trying to make them think fun? They don’t know what to do when there isn’t a prepackaged answer to give you. I was baptized when I was eight. It seemed like a fine idea at the time. I also enjoyed playing with barbies, and thought that The New Kids on the Block was the greatest band on Earth. Last month, my ” Home Teacher” found me on Facebook! I told him to leave me alone, and said that the issues I have with “The Church” can not be changed. Those issues are: 1. People of color (Black People) could not hold the priesthood until 1978. God couldn’t have let them in on that one sooner?
    2. Polygamy in the afterlife. Why should a guy be faithful to me now if he can have like 2,000,000 wives in heaven?
    3. Letting 8 year Olds make life decisions.
    He told me I should join Feminist Mormon Housewives…

  191. I am the original HotTipper Zoe, and I love the conversation this started…my 2 cents…
    1. If the Mormons (or anyone) offers to give or do something for free, it doesn’t matter what the receiver’s intention are of that gift..they were freely offered it. And if the M’s dont like it, or their technique doesnt work – then pull your G*dD&*n ads off the radio and TV – which is where i heard about this.
    2.Last I looked, we live in the US of A, and i can make fun of any imaginary friend (aka God) that i freakin’ like to.
    3. Stop with the ‘you wouldnt do this to a Koran or bible or blah blah blah’…the first time any Mullahs in the USA want to outlaw women driving or liquor stores or whatever, I’ll take a toke or snort some blow off the Koran or the Bible, and hope you want to as well.

  192. str8, you really shouldn’t insult the author unless you have your facts straight. The Mormon church encourages young, college age men (and women now too) to go on three year hiatuses from their regular life and do missionary work in foreign places.

  194. Mr. Holden’s writing is juvenile and boring. I’m finally speaking my piece after suffering through too much of his high-school journalism class-flavored efforts. It’s fairly obvious that his writing is really about trying to be popular and has nothing to do with true journalistic intention. I keep hoping for better fare, but I doubt he has it in him.

    I’m afraid that this latest adventure into ego-boosting, ie: ‘journalism’ just isn’t panning out. He should give us all a break and move on, please.

    Hempfest responsibilities are a much better fit for Mr. Holden’s fragile ego, as they put him on a stage, he gets to yell his head off for a bit, have people cheer him on, etc.

  195. Thanks, writer. I do this all the time. If some wingnut is handing out their fiction, I ALWAYS take it, tear it up and give it back to them. Just another five cents of theirs wasted, and another piece of garbage they can’t foist on someone else.

    STOP THE MORMON AGENDA before they strike again!

  197. I used to get the Mormons at my door on a regular basis. Then one day I told the two cute boys that most of my Mormon friends are gay, and they haven’t been back since. It’s been about 8 years!

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