Dan Savage

1. 72Rob writes:
   “What if it’s not the mutual intergenerational sex that hurts a child, but the crushing hysteria of society and its witch-hunt mentality that does the damage when the child and his or her adult lover are discovered?”

   All one needs to do is read about the negative effects on victims/survivors’ lives when the abuse is NOT disclosed and the person has years of dysfunctional or self-defeating behaviors. This is a common response by the “pedosexual” lobby that floats a red herring about this being children’s “rights”. Even if there were some logic to doing an experiment to determine whether societal reaction is worse than “benign” sexual encounters, you’d never find an ethics body to approve of such research.

   The vast majority of victims don’t disclose or do so when they are older, not subject to the hysteria of the professionals who make a living from treating victims.

   I’ve worked with a couple of young men in the past few years, ages 19 and 21. One was a self-proclaimed “boy-lover” the other a “girl-lover”.

   When I asked each about the areas of common conversation they had with their preferential age targets, they had difficulty explaining that talking about the interest topics (Barbies, Legos, and other interests of children) were sufficient to maintain a relationship based on more than sexual attraction.

   The other laughing point (if it weren’t so tragic) is that the boy-lover manifesto talks about getting the child’s parent’s permission to be the friend/mentor/sex educator of the child.

   If some adult or teen asked my permission to be a “friend” to my children when they were younger, I’d be awfully stupid to encourage something like that.

2. NJKen wrote: “Even if there were some logic to doing an experiment to determine whether societal reaction is worse than “benign” sexual encounters, you’d never find an ethics body to approve of such research.”

   NJKen, thank you for conceding my argument. 🙂

   Now, the very fact that you could not find such an ethics body proves there IS research that needs to be done.

3. @72Rob:

   As I’ve said elsewhere on this thread, I was molested as a child. You can go to #148 for the whole sorry story, but here are the important points:

   I initially consented because I had no real idea what I was agreeing to and I wanted to make my molester happy. I continued out of a sense of obligation and because I felt trapped. I was about the farthest thing imaginable from Rosa Parks, believe me; I was rolling over and taking it, not standing up for my own rights.

   What happened to me was not in any way, shape, or form a “joyful” experience. While it was happening, I felt trapped and used and slimy (in the literal sense of the word – my molester was a very orally fixated man).

   You know how you feel when you’re in that reclining chair at the dentist’s office, and the dental hygienist is poking around in your mouth, and you just want the whole damn thing to be over already? That’s what it felt like at the best of times. There was nothing sensual about the experience, let alone orgasmic — I don’t think I was even capable of orgasm back then. Did my molester stimulate some of the same nerve endings that are involved in sex and orgasm? Yeah, but my dentist stimulates some of the same nerve endings that are involved in kissing.

   During the years that I was being molested, I became anorexic and extremely depressed, and I continue to struggle with these issues to this day. Obviously, I can’t blame all my mental health woes on a single trauma, but the sexual abuse sure as hell didn’t help.

   Yes, I’m sure events would have played out very differently if I had lived in a world where child/adult sex was not taboo. I’m not sure that the end result would have been any better, though, at least for me. I still would have been coaxed and cajoled into performing sex acts that I did not want and did not enjoy by somebody I thought I loved and trusted.

   I have spoken with several other survivors of sexual abuse (some of whom had stories that make mine sound like a family sitcom). Many of them had given their abusers some modicum of consent. None of them felt that they were the better for what had happened to them.

4. @249: “(why did you change your name?)”
   Simple forgetfulness on my part. I thought I was using “unnamed” when I was posting last week.

   Thanks for the reference. However, the reasoning that the author is pushing is somewhat flawed. Young adults do have a significantly higher cognitive potential (resulting in a period where one can learn and understand a high volume of abstract ideas with a relative ease never seen in other periods of life), which is why there is such a dramatic increase in gray matter. This heightened period of cognitive potential should not be viewed as a “deficit.”

   The flood of hormones the author notes relates to being at the peak of sexual desire. ‘Teenage angst’ is not a result of hormones, but rather a justifiably angry response to the person being able to completely assert his/her own independence yet being denied the opportunity to do so. It tends to be more destructive in nature only because more constructive outlets for it are not as readily apparent. It is of note that the problem of ‘teenage angst’ has only gotten worse with a more and more laws are put into place that specifically target them.

   “‘Ability’ is not the issue. How could ‘ability’ be measured in relation to erotic relationships?”

   There are various practical ways of assessing whether a person has the capacity to generally consent, or whether they can vote competently, etc.

   One such method (and probably the easiest to conceive of) would involve something akin to a driver’s test. Ignoring the age requirement, all a driver’s test requires is that the person applying for their license is able to drive a car safely and responsibly. So with this kind of scheme, a person who wanted to could petition for sexual rights, for instance. If they can demonstrate whatever is deemed necessary to give consent, then they could without restriction.

   Another method could involve having a child able to begin exercising whichever rights they feel they are able to, when they want to, but with a parent able to object if s/he reasonably feels that the kid isn’t ready to exercise it and can show why. Of the two, I think this one is fairer.

   @251,2: “Their eyes won’t deliver an appraisal of your actions because they have been taught that adults know more than children”

   Yes, and this is really an important point. Why are children taught that adults always know better? It is only true only to a limited extent (where adults have more experience in something), and is a very dangerous thing in my opinion since it can make it quite a bit harder for a kid to stay or get out of a manipulative relationship (of any kind).

   And it ignores that kids can demonstrate greater knowledge or experience than adults, such as with those who grew up with computers, or young people interested in politics (it seems that politically active young people are much more proactive in advocating to change things that are clearly not working). It shouldn’t be assumed that in all cases someone older will automatically have more experience or knowledge. I say this within reason of course, since it should be fairly evident that young children will not have had sufficient time to gain significant experience or knowledge, but the idea would be the same. Experience, knowledge, and ability is what counts, not a number.

   “maybe destruction of innocence is some of the appeal.”

   Definitely not. At least not to anybody I’d ever want to associate with.

5. @256, Please resist the urge to conflate your abuse onto the majority of adult/child sexual relationships that are not abuse, but instead beneficial to both participants.

   I think we can all agree that REAL molestation and REAL sexual abuse are terrible things. But equally as terrible is the act of forcing consenters to define their love and sexual expression as “abuse”.

6. @ unnamed/a pedophile, do you have references to back up this assertion:

   “Young adults do have a significantly higher cognitive potential (resulting in a period where one can learn and understand a high volume of abstract ideas with a relative ease never seen in other periods of life), which is why there is such a dramatic increase in gray matter. This heightened period of cognitive potential should not be viewed as a “deficit.” “

   I would like to see something that is grounded in more current, thorough, authoritative research than the article I cited which maintains that “even as they become fully capable in other areas, adolescents cannot reason as well as adults”? And that “during adolescence the part of the brain that is helping organization, planning and strategizing is not done being built yet.”

   If you do produce those references, I’d also like to know how this cognitive potential with abstract ideas compensates for the disadvantages in reasoning and life experience that adolescents and children have when trying to deal with adults on equal terms.

   As for being flooded with hormones/sexual desire – since when did that protect anyone from emotional harm? Doesn’t that make adolescents more likely to take dangerous risks?

   Did you notice that you flaked out on coming up with this “test of ability” that you’re imagining? The test, you say, would involve “whatever is deemed necessary”. What do you imagine, in concrete terms, would prove that a child or adolescent is capable of managing the emotions and logistics involved in an erotic relationship with an adult on equal terms? This is not just an academic question. I’m guessing that many pedophiles take it that they personally have some version of this ‘proof’, so I’d like to know what that is.

   This is not just an abstract question for me, either. My husband was sexually abused beginning at the age of TWO by someone who believed, or pretended to believe, that he was consenting to sexual contact and that contact was “beneficial” to him. I am sure you would say you would never do such a thing. I am sure 72Rob would say if only people didn’t say sex with kids was abuse it wouldn’t have been a problem.

   What I know, because I live with it every day, is that my husband, who never told a soul, is still living with the fucking horrible unchosen cognitive and emotional fallout more than thirty years later, and so am I. While you guys fantasize about how it’s all society’s fault, we are living with the consequences of what some other fantasist left behind.

   That doesn’t make me hate you, wish you harm or want you banished from society. It has made me want to engage you in conversation to see if you are open to reconsidering your ideas. It does make me want to tell you to GET SOME HELP. Even if you are not in danger of abusing now. Please, please get some help and some support so you can stay safe.

   I’m done with this conversation.

7. “My husband was sexually abused beginning at the age of TWO by someone who believed, or pretended to believe, that he was consenting to sexual contact and that contact was “beneficial” to him. I am sure you would say you would never do such a thing. I am sure 72Rob would say if only people didn’t say sex with kids was abuse it wouldn’t have been a problem.” -diner mo

   diner mo, don’t go all stupid on what I write. I’m not arguing semantics like you are. I’m not saying it’s just a matter of choosing words. I’m saying that real child abuse does exist, and we as a society need to have the compassion of heart to know what that is and be able to condemn it for what it is, instead of calling all intergenerational sex between a child and an adult “abuse”.

   What we are witnessing in our society is the same mentality that was at work in Nazi Germany, a mentality of hate without reason. So fighting the abuse hysteria is just as important as fighting the Nazis.

   The idea held in our culture that every sexual encounter between an adult and a child is “abuse” is a grotesque perversion that is rotting the very core of our society. It is belittling the tragedy of real sexual abuse. And it is literally killing innocent pedophiles and children. Indeed, sexual abuse hysteria should be called “The Quiet Holocaust”.

8. 72Rob writes:
   “What we are witnessing in our society is the same mentality that was at work in Nazi Germany, a mentality of hate without reason. So fighting the abuse hysteria is just as important as fighting the Nazis.”

   If you are equating hating and wanting to kill people who are branded to be scapegoats for society’s ills like the Nazis did with Jews and other “undesirable” peoples, you may have a point there. However, I don’t think that generalized scorn for people who engage children in sexual activities are the same as Hitler’s victims.

   They did nothing to bring on the abuse, torture and death by the Nazis. Pedophiles and others who DO sexual behaviors with children are not innocent victims.

   Remember, this thread started with the discussion KIW brought to the table about his FEELINGS and THOUGHTS, not his behaviors. You and the other pro-“intergenerational sex” advocates use arguements for free speech, freedom of association and other civil rights as a way of advocating your sexual desires.

   Even if a child truly believes his relationship with an older person is benign and perhaps beneficial at the time, there are far too many casualties who are not created by the therapeutic community or outrage in the media. You and others who are in favor of adult-child sex do not know whether the “willing” child will do just fine in life or will become a casualty. The damage that diner mo talks about regarding her husband is generally the outcome.

   So, are there people who had good experiences with older people when they were children? Perhaps so. However, they don’t show up in the media, make public pronouncements or otherwise give us the info that sex with adults is a good thing.

   A couple years ago, I was seeing a man in his 40s just before he was sentenced to prison for his second offense involving possession of child pornography (images of child sexual abuse). He was initiated into “gentle” sexual activity by his teenage cousin when he was nine. The cousin shared him with his friends and by the time this boy was a teenager, he was able to choose his sexual partners, and made money from sex with teens and older men.

   His sense was that it was not abuse and he denied he was a victim. Fine. It’s not my job to define a person’s experience. However, he was going to prison for a few years and he was, by his own admission, somewhat of a sexual compulsive, having to have orgasms several times a day via sex with a couple of “friends with benefits” or masturbation.

9. @72Rob:

   I can’t decide if your hyperbole is grotesque or hilarious. I take it you’ve never heard of Godwin’s Law?

   >>>I’m saying that real child abuse does exist, and we as a society need to have the compassion of heart to know what that is and be able to condemn it for what it is, instead of calling all intergenerational sex between a child and an adult “abuse”.<<<

   This point has been made repeatedly throughout this thread, by myself and others, but once more for the record: CHILDREN “CONSENT” TO SEX WITH ADULTS OUT OF FEAR, OBLIGATION, AND IGNORANCE. If you agree that this happens at least some of the time, then how do you propose that we distinguish between genuine child abuse and “consensual” intergenerational sex?

   And don’t tell me that all we need to do is make sure children know that they can refuse sex they don’t want. Most children who are molested have been told all about “bathing suit areas” and “bad touching” and what have you. For a child, the abstract knowledge that it’s good and right and proper to say “no” to something (whether it’s *any* sex with an adult or just *unwanted* sex with an adult) doesn’t necessarily translate into the ability to actually say “no” to a real person, particularly when that person is someone the child knows and trusts.

   I personally know upwards of a dozen people (myself included) who “consented” to sexual contact with adults while they were children. Out of all these people, exactly zero found the experience to be beneficial or even benign.

   So, what metric would you use to differentiate between manipulation and coercion versus genuine consent? Wait, wait, let me guess: the first and most important question is “am *I* doing it, or is *somebody else* doing it?” Whenever *you,* personally, hear the word “yes” pass a child’s lips (or at least don’t hear a screaming, sobbing “no”), you know that it’s fully-informed consent, gladly and freely given. Because *you* aren’t a child abuser – ergo, nothing you do could possibly be child abuse!

   Oh, and Rob? That little voice that urges you to befriend children, to teach them about their bodies, to bring them joy, to help them assert their basic human rights? That’s not “compassion of heart.” That’s just your libido talking. (And, from the looks of it, your conscience — like the stereotypical battered wife — has long since stopped talking back.)

   >>>And it is literally killing innocent pedophiles and children.<<<

   I think you’ll find that very few children die from being denied sexual contact with adults. (On a global scale, hundreds of thousands of children die from having sexual contact with adults, specifically adults with HIV/AIDS. But of course, you wouldn’t care about that: the suffering caused by *actual* sex between children and adults is less than irrelevant to your lovingly-constructed delusions.)

10. @262
    “This point has been made repeatedly throughout this thread, by myself and others, but once more for the record: CHILDREN “CONSENT” TO SEX WITH ADULTS OUT OF FEAR, OBLIGATION, AND IGNORANCE. If you agree that this happens at least some of the time, then how do you propose that we distinguish between genuine child abuse and “consensual” intergenerational sex?”

    To answer your question, first we need to treat children like human beings. We do this by realizing and respecting that children are sexual beings, and quit treating children like they are creatures with monstrous sexualities.

    Second, we need to welcome pedophiles into the arms of society and quit treating them like the Nazis treated the Jews.

    Once we remove the shroud of mythology from children and pedophiles, we will see their fundamental place in human society, our ignorance towards their sexuality will crumble like any other prejudice that enters into the light of reason, and we will finally be able to understand the difference between abuse and what is not abuse.

    Like the fights for women’s rights and racial justice, pedophiles and children are ready for justice and human rights, it is up to society to take the next step.

    The rest of your post is ignorant hate mongering and I won’t address it.

11. When I was in middle school the teachers warned us that when we got to HS we wouldnt be able to get the girls attention for years bc they would be all about the older boys.

    Sure enough, in HS the girls were drawn to the older guys. This wasnt bc they had a better connection, it was bc they were blinded by the “coolness” of the older guys. There was no real connection there.

    Why hasnt anyone mentioned that it is pretty much only men that are pedophiles? Men with low self-esteem who cannot connect with women their own age?

    Just like the seniors in my HS going after the “easy targets”, these creeps choose to go after children who do not have enough experience to see them for the creeps they are. They have minimized they chances for rejection.

    These children dont have a charming youthfulness, it is naivete. ignorance. What is sexy about that? How many conversations about Legos can you have?

12. 72Rob- “The rest of your post is ignorant hate mongering and I won’t address it.”

    You tell her Rob. Geez, no wonder you like the young’ins….I bet they dont get all fact-y on you. They probably dont call you on your straw men arguments- shoot, they probably dont even know what a straw man argument is!

13. The rat-wheel of your misspent mind Bob.

14. @72Rob:

    Your perceived disenfranchisement does not constitute any sort of moral high ground, no matter how many comparisons to Nazi Germany you make, and your attempt to coopt the victimhood of your actual victims (i.e., children) is nothing short of sickening.

    Carl Sagan aptly observed that while many geniuses are mocked in their day, not all who are mocked are geniuses: “They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.”

    I would like to propose a parallel theorem, in your honor: just as ridicule does not prove genius, neither does persecution prove innocence. Or, to put it in more concrete terms, “They persecuted the Jews, they persecuted the blacks, they persecuted the gays. But they also persecuted the child molesters.”

    Obviously, nothing I can say is going to change your mind. You blithely dismiss any and all criticism as “hate mongering.” You imagine yourself as a rebel against an oppressive society of prudes and hysterics, a liberator of children from the clutches of sexual tyranny. It would seem that you’ve never stopped to wonder why it is that your convictions dovetail so neatly with your libido, and why it is that adults who *don’t* get off on having sex with children (including people who had sex with adults while they themselves were children) find your “noble cause” to be so monstrous.

    But you know what, fine. Spend your life holed up in the blanket fort of your own delusions, and keep pretending you’re a sexual revolutionary instead of a sexual predator. Go right on diddling the kiddies, because that’s obviously what you’re going to do until someone catches you. I very much hope that you are right, and your victims — excuse me, *lovers* — won’t be damaged by what you’ve done to them. But don’t be surprised when five or ten or however many years later, they fear you and resent you and blame you for a ruined childhood. Trust me, Rob — that’s how this story usually ends.

15. Now we finally know why you don’t feel comfortable talking about trans women: you have an intense fear of castration.

16. @259:
    “I would like to see something that is grounded in more current, thorough, authoritative research than the article I cited which maintains that “even as they become fully capable in other areas, adolescents cannot reason as well as adults”?”

    A few references (two are more recent than the article you quoted):
    “The Myth of the Teen Brain” – Dr. Robert Epstein
    http://drrobertepstein.com/pdf/Epstein-T&hellip;
    “The truth is that they are extraordinarily competent, even if they do not normally express that competence. Research I conducted with Dumas shows, for example, that teens are as competent or virtually as competent as adults across a wide range of adult abilities. And long-standing studies of intelligence, perceptual abilities and memory function show that teens are in many instances far superior to adults.”
    Also see his novel “The Case Against Adolescence,” and its update “Teen 2.0” which will be released this year.

    Waber, D.P. et al (2007): “The NIH MRI Study of Normal Brain Development: Performance of a Population Based Sample of Healthy Children Aged 6 to 18 Years on a Neuropsychological Battery”
    “For most tasks, proficiency improved dramatically between 6 and 10 years of age, leveling off during early adolescence (approximately 10 to 12 years of age), suggesting that for many neurocognitive tasks, children approach adult levels of performance at that age. For a few measures, scores increased linearly throughout the age range. These were tasks that assessed basic information processing, such as Coding, Digit Span, and Spatial Span.”

    Adler, N.E., & Matthews, K. (1994). “Why do some people get sick and some stay well?”
    “However, empirical tests show that adolescents are no less rational than adults. Applications of rational models to adolescent decision-making show that adolescents are consistent in their reasoning and behavior after the salient set of beliefs is assessed (Adler et al 1990). Quadrel et al (1993) demonstrated that adolescents are no more biased in their estimates of vulnerability to adverse health outcomes than are their parents.”

    With specific regards to this question, “Doesn’t that make adolescents more likely to take dangerous risks?” please see this study:

    Quadrel, M. J., Fischhoff, B., & Davis, W. (1993). “Adolescent (in)vulnerability”
    “Subjects were middle-class adults, their teenage children, and high-risk adolescents from treatment homes. All three groups saw themselves as facing somewhat less risk than the target others. However, this perception of relative invulnerability was no more pronounced for adolescents than for adults.”

    —————-

    “What do you imagine, in concrete terms, would prove that a child or adolescent is capable of managing the emotions and logistics involved in an erotic relationship with an adult on equal terms?”

    Basically asking these questions: Is independence exercised and understood (that no one can force them to do something they don’t want to)? Is there an understanding of possible risks? Is the person able to understand and express their own emotions (a pretty good measure of emotional maturity)? Is the person able to effectively and clearly communicate his/her desires? Or more directly, disregarding age, what is meant by someone giving consent? If some contact is consensual, it would be so regardless of the ages of the two people involved.

    Asking these questions does not mean the obvious needs to be ignored. I can safely say that your husband most certainly did not have the capacity to consent, nor would any other two-year old. And moreover, the sexuality of infants and toddlers is very self-oriented and probably never includes others. What happened to your husband was real sexual abuse and that should always be condemned. I sincerely hope that the abusive jerk was punished for his actions.

    —————-

    “That doesn’t make me hate you, wish you harm or want you banished from society. It has made me want to engage you in conversation to see if you are open to reconsidering your ideas. It does make me want to tell you to GET SOME HELP. Even if you are not in danger of abusing now. Please, please get some help and some support so you can stay safe.”

    And I really just want to thank you so much for not hating me. That’s a luxury I almost never have when I am honest with others. The conversation has been good because it has made me think of things I hadn’t considered previously, and that is always a good thing. I’ll continue to argue for greater independence for young people (not because of selfish reasons on my part; I will never support extending solely sexual rights to kids because if that is the only thing that changes then I don’t see how the situation would have gotten any better for them, and that is the only thing that really matters), but of course there are special issues related to development that need to be carefully considered.

    You said I should get help. My sexuality isn’t dangerous or anything; I don’t need “help” because of that. I’m not going to ever “act” on my sexuality or anything because I don’t want any harm to ever come to any child, and this would be inevitable with any such erotic relationship today. But I really do wish that I could be open with someone in real life. But most people would hate me for my feelings. Where could I ever hope to find someone who wouldn’t, and who wouldn’t suggest that I should be ashamed of what I feel or something? I don’t have a clue, and it’s way too risky to try to go looking for that. Online support exists, but for the most part I just have to learn to support myself.

17. @264:
    “Why hasnt anyone mentioned that it is pretty much only men that are pedophiles?”

    The only pedophiles (and hebephiles, those preferentially attracted to young adults, which includes the teen years) you end up hearing about are those who cross the legal line (and it should be noted that that the vast majority of child/teen sex offenders are not pedophiles/hebephiles, but rather “situational offenders” who do so out of stress and other factors – see FBI statistics on this manner, or other studies looking at this), and men are much more likely to break any law than women. There is no reason why pedophilia/hebephilia would be more common with

    “Men with low self-esteem who cannot connect with women their own age?”

    It has nothing whatsoever to do with low self-esteem. I’ve known how I’ve felt since I was around 11-13. For years I tried desperately (to the point of self-destruction) to feel attracted to adult men or women or my peers, but it never worked. And I should point out that most pedophiles/hebephiles do in fact feel attraction to their peers and do form romantic relationships with adults.

    “Just like the seniors in my HS going after the “easy targets”, these creeps choose to go after children who do not have enough experience to see them for the creeps they are. They have minimized they chances for rejection.”

    No. The society in which we live gives no chance to the relationship I might like to have from ever developing, though I think it could be possible in some other time (I don’t feel up to continuing this particular argument, so read my past posts to get an explanation if you want it). Minimizing the chances for rejection? More like ensuring a life without a fulfilling romantic relationship.

    “These children dont have a charming youthfulness, it is naivete. ignorance. What is sexy about that? How many conversations about Legos can you have?”

    I can’t speak for every pedophile. But I can hazard a very educated guess that in our attractions, the vast majority of pedophiles are like any other person (and similarly amongst other traits). That is, a typical pedophile indeed has sexual feelings towards children, yet that is hardly the extent of the attraction, just like those attracted to adult men and women don’t feel just lust. It is not just sexual desire, but includes attraction on a wholly social and emotional level. These three components, for the typical pedophile, are equal in importance and intensity in defining their unique attraction base.

    Allow me to give a personal example, by way of a valued memory of mine. I omit personally identifying details for protection (being an outed pedophile today is not a good thing, to put it mildly), but anything else is completely honest. I will try to keep it brief, but I hope it can be enlightening about the nature of my attraction. It was a day I had when I was about 14, not fully accepting myself but also not at the worst I had been. But none of those issues seemed to matter during this day. My mother was babysitting two little girls for the day, but I was rather surprised when my door burst open and they walked in to introduce themselves. Leah and Alexis, sisters to each other. Stunned by their beauty, I greeted them with a smile. Their smiles were radiant and warm. Leah had gorgeous, long brunette hair and blue eyes, while Alexis had nice, short black hair and brown eyes. They were both very outgoing and affectionate, but above all they were kind and fun-loving. They took an immediate-liking to me, and decided that we would spend the day together.

    The day was great fun. We played some games both inside and out, hide and seek, the occasional computer game, we joked around a lot, walked to a local restaurant for lunch, and much more, and everything we did was Leah and Alexis’ decision. We had loads of fun, and lots of laughter was had by all, especially Leah and Alexis (and that’s what was most important to me, that they were happy and enjoying themselves). Even the ‘dull’ moments weren’t so dull – it was great fun to just be sitting on the couch making each other laugh with silly faces. One thing I remember very clearly, that Leah and Alexis had me do all day was to walk them everywhere while they sat down on my feet. Hehe, great fun, but it certainly got tiring by the end of the day. Anyways, the day did eventually come to a close, but it came with Leah and Alexis wishing it didn’t have to.

    Now yes, I was sexually attracted to both Leah and Alexis, but in any event I really doubt that Leah or Alexis had similar feelings, so I obviously didn’t act on that, and I wouldn’t have even if they expressed some clear interest in sexual activity (I wouldn’t have wanted any harm to come to them). But I hope those reading this can see that the sexual feelings I had weren’t the only thing I felt, nor dominant, nor did I want to express them. Being a friend for Leah and Alexis, making them smile and laugh, was what I wanted, and exactly what I did.

18. i empathize for KIW… i wish there was a safe place to receive help and support.

    to the bigger topic, though, it seems that the fallacy of “consent” is at the heart of pedophilia. confusing the precociousness and unwittingness of sexual behavior as knowledge/consent from children is bizarre.

    men discussing girls “expressing some clear interest in sexual activity” is repulsive.

    i can understand the desire to shake off our culture as regards sex…

    i can understand the FANTASY of forcing someone else to experience pleasure against their will, or without their understanding what’s happening. the fantasy of raping a virgin isn’t exactly far-fetched.

    it is the combination – raping a virgin whose mind and social development doesn’t allow them to know they’re being raped – that equals pedophiliac fantasies.

    that isn’t a “sexual preference” along a continuum. it is a deviance that needs to be treated. i would easily befriend KIW knowing his problem. i would not, however, enable KIW or anyone some illusion that this is normal. 72 whoever you are, you need help.

19. @Unnamed, your comment moved me. I appreciate that you are thinking about the ‘big picture’ in terms of what kids need and their situation in our culture, and that you are really trying to be responsible about who you are in this world – we all have to do that.

    My husband and I are putting a *lot* of work – money, time, emotional energy – into redressing the damage that we each have copped through being given emotional situations to deal with at ages when we just weren’t ready for them. For him the sexual abuse, for me physical and emotional abuse as an adolescent. It’s a process of slow unfolding which includes learning some unexpected things about what various stages of development can cope with. The effects of this damage have been pretty devastating and although we can grow in amazing ways, we will never be totally free of those effects. I know if we didn’t have the resources we have now to deal with stuff, we’d be fucked.

    I hope that you are open to learning about the protections that kids need as well as the freedoms. It’s really, really important.

    I also hope you can keep cautiously looking for ways to get the support and sharing that you need. It is a human right, and I want it for you regardless of any fears around your sexuality. You are really bright and resourceful, so those things can help you.

    Take care.

20. I have rarely felt the need to respond online like this, but the disturbing elements I find here makes it necessary … First off, my disclaimer – I was molested & raped as a child – first it was manipulative & I consented, reluctantly…. then it became forceful and I most certainly didn’t consent to that. This of course colors my perspective. I am also post – therapy, but still full of quirks and kinks.

    To most of the pedophiles that posted…I do get it. You can be a good pedophile, someone who is attracted to children, provided you don’t act on that attraction. However, I really can’t elevate the attraction to children as a legitimate orientation and personally, I don’t feel a whole lot of sympathy…

    I have some very dark kinks, none involve children, but I have never been totally sexually fulfilled – and I won’t ever be. My parents, my friends and yes, my lover – have no idea what my deepest desires are. They would not understand, there would likely be some concern over my well being and my man would be distressed to find himself unable to give me what I really want. But guess what, I’m a grown up… I figured out awhile ago what was really important to me and I’ve made choices based on that.

    My unexpressed kink is merely a facet of me… I don’t lie awake at night thinking about it or about what my loved ones would think if they knew. It doesn’t consume me. I do not seek out porn that portrays it – it exists, but it would not still my desires – likely it would exacerbate them as it would fail to fulfill my craving. The reality is that I can’t have it all- some desires run counter to others and choices must be made.

    Get a good therapist who has a history of working with sex offenders – not because you are one, but because they can best help to set guidelines to keep you from ever offending. Sign up with some SA type group that can give you an accountability partner. Best of all, quit whining about society hating you – society doesn’t know you and won’t know you for this if you never hurt anyone. Understand that you can have a full life with merely one aspect of yourself that isn’t fully realized.

    On a side note – I think there should be just one punishment for whomever crosses that line and behaves inappropriately with a child. This also includes any adult who believes they are in an adult-child love relationship. Once someone crosses the line, I don’t care to treat or understand – just cauterize.

21. KIW deserves lots of credit for admitting to a compulsion that is typically reviled in this society. That he/she has not acted on it is to his/her credit. KIW is asking for concrete advice on how to deal with an issue that may very well land KIW in jail, let alone loss of job, family and friends if it become known. I’ve read as many of the 273 answers before mine as I could, but don’t see an answer that I know works. And that is Sexaholics Anonymous or a similar 12 step program. As a member of one of these groups I can attest that someone like KIW will be welcomed and allowed to talk about their compulsions and attractions without shame. Doing so helps control them. Normal life IS possible. I don’t have KIW’s problem but mine did ruin my life and since I’ve joined this group I’ve been able to function in society and regain much of what I lost. Help exists and doesn’t, necessarily, require castration of any kind.

22. You know, just ‘cuz you have a fantasy/fetish doesn’t make it right to act on it/indulge it. (Most especially if it’s harmful to others.)

    Just ‘cuz KIW is attracted to kids doesn’t mean he should wallow in that attraction. It may always be the fantasy that gives him the biggest “bang,” but it shouldn’t (he shouldn’t let it) be the only way for him to get his kicks. He needs to work at building and developing other, healthier fantasies/fetishes and indulging them. Seems that would enrich his life. I’m not advocating repression, just “rechanneling.” Most of us have multiple fantasies/fetishes. He needs to feed the ones he can.

23. As a survivor of incest, I’m going to chime in on this one. Pedophilia can’t be compared to being gay as apples to apples. Being gay is biological happenstance, and can be enacted between two consenting adults, but pedophilia results from screwed-up socialization, and it evolves from the inherent LACK of consent and LACK of boundaries.

    KIW doesn’t need to be demonized (commenter 277 is nuts, you shut the hell up there dude). KIW also needs to get his tail to a seriously good, compassionate therapist, and deal with whatever trauma precipitated the desire to have sexual relationships with fundamentally unable, unwilling partners. Pedophiliac desire, unlike being gay, does not result from healthy normal biological processes. It arises from a pre-existing pattern of abuse.

24. gillettebret,

    Despite your vitriol, you’ll have to try to use your mind a little bit.

    Again, considering your death threats (illegal in most places), it makes it all the more important that we consider the will and consent of the child. Would you murder somebody (as you threaten) if your child actively pursued and consented to a sexual relationship with an adult?

    And what danger do you pose to your child if you find out he or she consented?

    And what damage, psychologically, would you do to that child when he or she finds out you murdered their adult lover?

    You see, when we consider the humanity of children we cannot ignore their will and consent when it comes to their very own sexualities. Sadly, gillettebret, your attitude is growing in popularity as hysteria makes a home the minds of individuals and institutions.

25. Michael Jackson is a good example of a good pedophile because he does not really rape children and he loves children a lot and he also saved a child’s life from cancer. He protects children and took good care of them even though he wants to have sex with them…

26. I am a Bisexual and a Pedophile and I don’t feel shame at all since God gave me these sexual preferences. Age is not always a barrier in my opinion. What is wrong with saying “I love that cute, pretty naked boy in that photo” and that I wanted to keep the photo as favourite photo in my hard disk??? I feel like my freedom was robbed. You cannot stop me from saying that too because I really love that cute, pretty boy in the photo as an example. It also depends on how we define what is child abuse. I was abused for like 3-5 times (not severely) when I was a child but I don’t want other children to suffer the same fate as me and this is why I love them and I wanted to take good care of them so I am not a monster. I wanted to protect them as if they are my little brothers and I don’t mind to teach them how to have sex. Different people have different opinion based on their own experience. In my case, I already know how to masterbate and jerk off when I was 5 yrs old so for me it is normal for children to have sexual hobby. I also practiced with my cousin who is only 2 years older than me at that time. Sex is a game for everyone of every age (if they can do it and know how to do it). At the time I was 5, I did not know why I wanna do it but I know that I wanna do it and the best answer I got was that it was fun and I called it the “weird game or playing penis game”. It was weird but it was also fun and I have no definite answer to why I wanna do it. People wanna do things that they think is fun for them and it can be anything. Unfortunately, there is no place for pedophiles in this world and we cannot have our own freedom. It is like homosexuality because pedophilia is a sexual preference. When I see a cute beautiful child, I am automatically sexually aroused which isn’t my fault so it cannot be a crime. I don’t know what to do. I love many children and I don’t harm them too. I would be very dissappointed when the children are harmed and tortured by monsters and if I can protect them then I would at all cost. I do admit that some pedophiles are monsters but not all of them are. I just wanted the children to be safe and have fun in any ways and I will buy as many toys as I can. When they sleep, I will hug them and defend them if they get scare of the dark…

    When I am stress, I would wanna stay close to children because they make me feel better and relax. It is like staying with the angels who will entertain me in any ways and to soften my mood. Sometimes, they made me wanted to go to back to my childhood and becoming a child again, living in a enjoyable fantasy world where there is free of stress from today’s reality world. The child’s world is the world of having fun and only playing.

    So why demonizing all pedophiles? Not all of us are monsters. Some are also priests at church. God made us like this and it is not our fault even if this is not a world for pedophiles because the law made it illegal. Please help us enjoy our sexual preference even if it is a bit twisted or unnatural for many. I wish that I could live longer until the days that it could become more legal and acceptable in the society just like it happened with homosexuality. God bless us…

27. PS:

    I also would like re-clarify myself better that I was actually physically abused (not severely) by my parent and it is not a sexual abuse when I was a child and this is what also driven me to love children more and being concern about their safety. I don’t think that my sexual preference has to do much with my childhood abuse experience because it was not that severe but it made me love the children more and fear that they might suffer the same fate if their parents are abusive. I love them more since I am a pedophile and a bisexual, they are pretty and cute.

    And I don’t see that having sex with children is a child abuse unless if it is raping or forcing the child to have sex or physically harming the child but if the child is happy and willing to have sex with us then it is another thing and it cannot be child abuse. Some children would have fun and laugh when having sex and they are not harm or dissappoint either.

    Why can’t we also be sexually attracted to pretty cute kids under 18 yrs old? What’s so different between a 12 or 17 or 18 yrs old kids? They already know how to have sex and they could also become my boyfriend or girlfriend too. They are still pretty so I cannot deny that whether you like it or not…

    Sorry but that is how we are… It is becoming nature and it is a matter of personal taste or sexual preference so we cannot easily change ourselves. Only God can if he/she can perform miracles on us…

28. @ Good Child Lover:

    >>>What is wrong with saying “I love that cute, pretty naked boy in that photo” and that I wanted to keep the photo as favourite photo in my hard disk?<<<

    It’s wrong because the photo could not have been taken unless the “cute, pretty naked boy” in it had first been abused. Modern ethical standards hold that children are incapable of giving informed, meaningful consent to sex and other sexual activities, which includes posing for pornographic photos.

    >>>When I see a cute beautiful child, I am automatically sexually aroused which isn’t my fault so it cannot be a crime.<<<

    Experiencing sexual arousal isn’t a crime. However, acting on sexual arousal can be a crime (and in your case, it definitely would be). A man who is “automatically sexually aroused” by a beautiful woman and rapes her is a criminal, regardless of the fact that he had little or no control over his initial desire. Of course, a woman can give meaningful consent to sexual activity – however, a child *cannot,* and therefore any sexual contact you have with children is rape.

    >>>Sorry but that is how we are… It is becoming nature and it is a matter of personal taste or sexual preference so we cannot easily change ourselves.<<<

    So. Fucking. WHAT. Many, many people have deep-seated urges (sexual and otherwise) that they can neither consciously control nor ethically act on. I’m sorry to shatter your delusions of entitlement, but innate desire does not guarantee inculpability.

29. @ #284’s reply:

    It looks like you haven’t even read most of my phrases and you totally missed many points that I posted earlier.

    Come on! Taking photo of naked pretty boy is not an abuse and the child is willing to do it too. Nobody is forcing the child to be naked and then taking photo of him/her. What about hundreds of naked children on the streets of India? That is also abuse when the western foreigners took photos of them? The photos are like art and expression of any thoughts or freedom so you cannot stop people who love these arts by manipulating them or illegalizing them because it would not help the situation. If you like the photo then just keep it and don’t throw it away and if you don’t like it then don’t keep it. Period. Very simple.

    But the problem is if someone get caught by keeping child pornography or teens under 18 or even at 17 yrs old of age then they would be arrest which is a shame. Also, I never take photos of naked children too but if I like them then I shall keep them so there is nothing wrong with keeping arts of expression or free thoughts.

    I never Rape a child or force the child to have sex with me so chill out. I would ask the child first and if the child wanna play then it should be fine or morally correct. Doing it with the child’s consent or permission is more acceptable but if the child is not willing and start crying then let them go and don’t harm them. We should protect them and take good care of them too. These are what good Pedophiles should do.

    Touching a child is already like a sexual act for me and it is not related to raping a child and the child loves to be touch and tickle. Just like you give soft caress touch to the child to tell them that you love them. Like I said earlier, it depends on how you define what is child abuse and raping. People who rape a child would harm them or threaten them if the children refuse their orders but I am not like that because I am not a monster. I love children and I am not shame to be a bisexual and a pedophile. I am also against any kinds of abuse against children.

    Stop demonizing me. You are against God’s will. God created the sweet little pretty angels for us to love and to take good care of them and we have the rights to love them and play with them too without harming them in any ways.

30. KIW is a creep. I just do not have any true sympathy. As a bisexual and a transwoman, I can understand how it feels to have to hide a part of oneself… but when children come into the picture, things go right out the window.

    Pedophillia is NOT an “orientation”. Anyone WITH an orientation ought to to disgusted at the idea that child abusers could be put up as normal in any sense of the word. It’s a disease. It’s a combination of someone having some very sick urges, some emotional, some biological. KIW needs to get some serious help, and he needs to be taken off the streets until he gets it.

    Now, as for the letter, dosen’t anybody else find it suspicious? KIW claims never to have acted on his feelings, that its sick to do so, and then puts himself into situations where he’s left alone with the objects of his desire for long periods of time(don’t get me started on what parents would let a grown man stay with their kids, alone- this letter ought to be a wake-up call to parents)! This is a man who wants someone to “ok” his actions, to justify his plans.

    Savage, THE MAN WILL USE THIS RESPONSE AS AN EXCUSE TO ABUSE CHILDREN. It’s what he wrote the letter for.

31. GirlGentleman:

    Ironically, you are advocating the same methods be used against KIW that the Nazis once used against people like you.

    How do you feel?

32. >>>Come on! Taking photo of naked pretty boy is not an abuse and the child is willing to do it too. Nobody is forcing the child to be naked and then taking photo of him/her.<<<

    Are you serious? The vast majority of child pornography is produced coercively. The “models” are either photographed without their knowledge, or forced to pose naked and/or engage in sexual acts in front of the camera. Adult erotic models choose their own careers, they choose to accept or decline specific job offers, they choose what they will and will not do in front of the camera, and they choose whether they will or will not allow their image to be distributed in a specific fashion in return for a specific amount of money. (I’m aware that it doesn’t actually work this way all the time, but I would argue that any pornography *not* produced under these conditions is not ethically produced and cannot be ethically purchased.)

    If you honestly believe that your “naked pretty boys” chose to work as erotic models, or that they have any control over what they do in front of the camera and how their images are distributed, then you’re even denser than you seem.

    Yes, I understand that it’s possible to take perfectly innocent photos of nude and semi-nude children — my own family photo album contains pictures of me and my brother in the bath, and me running around topless on the beach. However, even if it’s acceptable to take naked photographs of very young family members in a few very specific situations (e.g., the bath, the beach, and other settings where nudity or partial nudity is normative and non-posed), it is *never* acceptable to publicly distribute those photos for sexual purposes. I get that there’s a bit of a grey area here — photos of children that most people view as cute and innocent may well seem erotic to a pedophile. I’m not saying that we should outlaw any and all photos of children, simply because some pedophile somewhere is bound to find them arousing; however, knowingly distributing photos of children *as erotica* is beyond the pale. Children cannot meaningfully consent to having their images used in that way (and at any rate, most child pornographers don’t even bother to seek the hollow facsimile of consent that you pedophiles so often mistake for the real thing).

    >>>Also, I never take photos of naked children too but if I like them then I shall keep them so there is nothing wrong with keeping arts of expression or free thoughts.<<<

    If you purchase pornographic photos of children (not computer graphics or photomanipulations – actual photos), then you are financing the victimization of children. It’s that simple. It is no more ethical to purchase child pornography than it is to purchase unfaked snuff flicks or videos taken in public restrooms by hidden cameras.

    I am all for freedom of expression, and I will adamantly defend your right to own child pornography created by drawing or CG, however distasteful I may personally find it. However, you do not have the right to own photographic records of the actual sexual abuse of actual children — and this is precisely what most child pornography is.

    >>>You are against God’s will. God created the sweet little pretty angels for us to love and to take good care of them and we have the rights to love them and play with them too without harming them in any ways.<<<

    Children aren’t “sweet little pretty angels” — they don’t exist to bring you emotional comfort or spiritual enlightenment, and they aren’t toys in the nursery school bin that everyone has to share. They’re people, albeit physically, emotionally, and intellectually vulnerable people who are engaged in the ongoing process of gaining adult capabilities and assuming adult rights and responsibilities. Children don’t owe you anything, and you are not owed any access to children.

    Oh, and if God has an opinion on the subject, then He can get a Slog account and leave a comment like the rest of us. Until then, I don’t give half a damn about what your personal (and particularly odious) iteration of everybody’s favorite imaginary friend thinks about me.

33. I wonder if pedophilia is kind of an overexaggeration of a normal tendency in human males. After all, a healthy glow, soft skin, a higher voice and a general youthful appearance are indicators of fertility and health that are universally attractive. It’s just that most men require a bit more sexual development to go along with them. Maybe the second half of the attraction never really took hold in some guys.

    I am only, of course, referring to non-situational genuine pedophiles where the attraction is not just to power and control in general, but to a prepubescent appearance.

34. @ #288 reply:

    Yes I am serious, many Russian teens under 18 yrs old would go and register themselves on Russian Gay porno wesbites and be naked with all their intention so it is not child abuse. You must be living on Planet Pluto lately and your biased prospective is based on the law itself so you are basically repeating that law which continues to rob pedophiles’ sexual orientation freedom. I bet that even children know how to have sex better than you and they know what is right or wrong for them because it seems like you got no guts lately in sex. Even many 5-12 yrs old kids already know how to have sex and you are still delusion to believe and assume that when they are naked or masterbate, it means that they are victimized or abused or being forced by someone. With your poor, anti-pedophile law logic, it is like saying that these Russian children would victimize themselves just simply because they go naked online which is not true. It is their part-time job because many of them are poor but the biased laws made by non-pedophiles had illegalized them. Despite this illegalization in many countries, these naked boys photos on porno websites are still on and people will continue to download and save them for the sake of their sexual freedom. Your biased view is just like that biased anti-pedophile law because it clearly showed that you cannot tolerate people who are sexually attractive to young pretty boys so you don’t care about their freedom of expression afterall (based on what you posted). With your approach/solution, you risk to continue to harrass pedophiles and still taking away their sexual orientation freedom and you cannot even easily classify what contents are considered for sexual purpose and what contents are not for sexual purpose. What if I say that your naked kid photos of your family is also sexually attractive to me, shall we also illegalize your family photos too just because it has naked boys under 18 yrs old and say that it is child pornography content in your own house and then arrest you and your family members??? Come On!

    The problem is that nudity is allowed only for heterosexual and homosexual but not pedophilia or naked children which is more double standard. Nudity in all websites are for sexual purpose but only in certain category. Why is sadism/masochism/torture still allowed online since it is much more worse than just showing naked children??? Many sadism-masochism websites show people being tortured and sexually harassed and they are still allowed so why are the photos of naked children being illegalized??? Go back and review the situation…

    Attracting to young, soft skin and higher voice boys is universally attractive and adorable which is normal as caitygirl posted above so don’t tell me that you are going to arrest me simply because of this attraction. Children might not be sweet angels for you but in the world of pedophilia, they are. So with your biased view based on current biased anti-pedophilia law, you would always be disagreeable in the debate because pedophilia is not your sexual orientation/preference or just because you are not sexually attracted/oriented towards children. You will also always conclude that this is an act of child abuse or victimizing children and you will always demonize pedophiles. You would never understand and you will continue to condemn pedophiles for their sexual orientation.

    Come On! Give me a break…

35. Oh man, Good Child Lover & 72Rob: you aren’t getting the main point. Of course children are kinda sexual little beings. I was a nanny & have changed plenty o’ diapers: it’s not uncommon for them to have their hand between their legs w/in moments of diaper removal. Toddlers in the tub who discover the water faucet. Kids running nekkid around the house. Playing Dr. w/ each other. These are all nice, normal, natural discoveries for a little human, about their bodies, with themselves & other kids their age. Those explorations should be joyful, & if noticed by parents, explained carefully & not in a way to give the kids hangups.

    The point is, although you want to blame it on Americans being prudes, our laws being wrong, whatever, that we’re not talking legislation. The reason kids can never give fair consent to sexual contact with an adult is moral; that they’re NOT intellectually equal to an adult. They’re not aware of the repercussions of what they’re agreeing to, & even if they suggest it – they mighta played Dr. w/ lil’ Suzy across the street, & it was fun, & do you do that? – it’s WRONG to agree.

    We say that kids can’t consent to protect them. If any of you pedophiles, “gold star” or not, had any real care for the objects of your affections, you’d get some help for yourselves & let them retain the purity & innocence they naturally have, that joy that attracts you to them. Why spoil that? Because that’s what happens.

    Just as there have been lots of pedophiles chiming in here, are you guys reading what the victims of abuse are writing? There is your proof that the contact you think is so possible, so noble & so merely outlawed by society, is actually damaging, unwelcome & even if “consent” is given at the time, the victim usually has fallout from the contact for much of their life.

    Is the tendency the problem? Should I feel sympathy for pedophiles’ natural urges? It’s just not the same as some other orientation or kink, which is kinda what it sounds like many of the above commenters are trying to make it out to be. It’s a miswiring, an abnormality. It sounds like most of the pedophiles chiming in are quick to explain themselves away, they’re not such bad guys. If they put half that much effort into sorting themselves out or getting help, perhaps they’d make some progress. Even the tender babysitting story above gave me the willies. How close did the poster come to danger, with the girls he desired sitting on his feet..?

    I don’t think a bullet is the answer. *eyeroll* Treatment, yes. But this indulgence above..like pedophilia is any other equal to equal sexual persuasion..is flat out wrong. There can be no physical relationship there between equals, as both parties are inherently not equal.

36. To #291 (and by implication to many others above).
    Most children who have been sexually assaulted recover completely. “Post Traumatic Stress Disorder: Some estimates of children who have been sexually assaulted indicate that from 70 to 80 percent are indistinguishable from their non-victimized peers within a two-to-three-year period. ‘A Consumers Guide to Psychotherapy’, Beutler, Bonger and Shurkin”.

37. Age of consent seems to come up several times and part of the problem is that the line becomes fuzzy at a certain age and also where you live. If a country has a 15 year old age of consent law, what makes that 15 year old better prepared than an 18 year old in another country? I was a younger teen when I engaged in sexual activity with someone who was older (totally not forced). I look back on this fondly. I enjoyed it and was not damaged in any way by it. For me it was a positive experience. Maybe it was just a different time being so long ago, but I think many of todays society has made all sex seem so taboo and bad. Kids today are being criminalized for normal curiosity with their peers.

38. Wow! 300 comments in 3 weeks, most of them from very passionate people. Here’s my take on this most heinous crime which was considered perfectly normal for the upper class in Greece at some time in their enlightened past. Love is the desire to be one with. Sex is the physical desire to be one with the one you love–ideally. No problem as long as the people involved can and do give their consent. If not, and they’re adults, we call it rape. But with kids, it’s not easy to tell whether they could or did give their consent, so we err on the conservative side and try to illegalize EVERY form of physical affection between adults and kids, except between kids and their parents and family, who we hope are not exploitative. We think we are protecting the kids, but we ignore the damage done to kids, like myself when I was young, who were not given enough physical affection because the parents thought it would make me “soft”. Go figure.

39. @doug257:

    Some fun facts about pederasty in classical Greece:

    – The younger partner (known as the eromenos or pais) wasn’t supposed to enjoy having sex with his adult lover (known as the erastes). Eromenoi were believed to benefit from the relationship in other ways — ideally, erastai were not only lovers, but also friends, mentors, and patrons — but they are very seldom described or depicted as deriving any physical gratification from the sex act.

    – The sexual element of erastes/eromenos relationships was far from universally condoned, even among the lettered elites. Plato, Lucian, and Plutarch (along with a host of lesser-known writers) stridently condemned sexual relationships between boys and men. Indeed, the vernacular use of the term “platonic” to describe nonsexual friendships comes from Plato’s vision of proper erastes/eromenos relationships.

    – Formal erastes/eromenos relationships among members of the upper class were only one piece in a larger pattern of man/boy sexual contact in ancient Greece. The bigger picture included practices that would currently be recognized as grossly exploitative, even by raving loony NAMBLA apologists — things like child brothels, the sexual use of slaves, and the castration of young boys (to preserve their youthful charm).

    Finally, on an unrelated note, isn’t it a bit hyperbolic to claim that US society “illegalizes EVERY form of physical affection between adults and kids, except between kids and their parents and family”? I hugged plenty of teachers when I was a kid — and when I worked as a camp counselor in my early twenties, I got dozens of spontaneous hugs, gave a great many piggy-back rides, and French-braided what felt like miles of hair.

40. @diner mo

    Excellent point about 100 comments ago, but one of the problems explaining this point is that a fair number of pedophiles have not had many adult erotic relationships, and may not understand the emotional hurt that, while not rational, happens never the less. “Good pedophiles” live in fairly strictly rational worlds, and sometimes the arguments get a bit a muddled when emotions become involved.

    I don’t say this to be negative. I used to subscribe to a mailing list run by Fresh Petals, an early online resource for pedophilia, particularly those attracted to girls. The debate on that list was some of the most reasoned and well-thought out anywhere, and indeed, this discuss brings back the memories very strongly. But the endless points of contention were the meaning of consent and why trauma occurs. As people opened up on the list it become clear that the two sides were largely correlated with whether the pedophile was participating in adult relationships.

    That would be my biggest suggestion for KIM: if you’re “bisexual” and also are attracted to “age-appropriate” partners, focus on that. It wont make the pedophilia go away (nothing will), but it will clearly relegate it to the realm of fantasy. And that’s something every pedophile has to do once they accept themselves.

41. The contraception problem is mostly solved (though future innovations could still deliver increased convenience), and the STD problem is under heavy attack (see http://www.worldcommunitygrid.org, where you can add your computer’s unused processing power to the Fight AIDS @ Home scientific computing effort). Those two problems will be fully solved within probably 100 years.

    Consider now a world in which adults could publicly engage in sex play in exactly the same exuberant, carefree manner that children demonstrate when they play together. That is the world – a world in which science has crushed all STDs, in which the contraception problem is totally solved, and in which sex is not taboo but instead readily available to everyone – in which the GSP’s argument rings true. Absent physical harm, children would interpret sexual activity as a type of play – and that would be a correct interpretation.

42. But sex isn’t JUST a type of play. It feels good, & we as adults can understand that. But for fuck’s sake! It’s not just that you can give a child an STD or that the child might be just past menarche so can become pregnant. Those are adult risks, which we as adults understand are part of the package when we agree to play with someone. A child doesn’t understand the last impact of sex, their first sexual encounters no less, on themselves.

    There is no perfect world where it’s okay for adults to be sexual with kids. Not talking about the 18 year old & his 15 year old girlfriend. My ppl who are pedophiles, the age difference i much greater. Thus we’re back around to, the adult has all the power; the kid doesn’t; there’s likely an imbalance in the relationship (kid = child,or babysat, or student; adult = parent,or teacher or uncle) and BECAUSE OF THAT IMBALANCE OF POWER, a child CAN’T CONSENT TO SEX W/n ADULT. That won’t change when we’ve gotten rid of STD’s in Perfect Future World. The central imbalance – of dependence – between child & adult won’t be resolved. It’s part of what pedophiles likely find so attractive about children – their innocence & joy is frequently expressed above – but how d’ya think the molestation will affect that innocence & joy? If that’s what is so attractive about children, your actions on your desires will spoil it.

    Have adult relationships if possible. Make the pedophilia just a fantasy. Meet someone for age play. But don’t babysit, don’t teach. It’s not that all pedophiles are automatically gonna fall off the wagon, like someone above suggested not all ppl rape. What makes the situation so volatile, is that if someone tries to rape me, a grown woman, I can fight, kick, scream, cry. I know what they want. It’s a fight between equals, almost. If you put your hand on a little child’s thigh, they only know vaguely that something’s not right. They don’t know for sure what you want, & being young & vulnerable, they have an inordinately high desire to please you, the adult mentor figure.

    It’s never, ever, going to be okay to have a sexual/erotic relationship between an adult & a child. Even if they are curious. Even if they start it.

43. But sex isn’t JUST a type of play. It feels good, & we as adults can understand that. But for fuck’s sake! It’s not just that you can give a child an STD or that the child might be just past menarche so can become pregnant. Those are adult risks, which we as adults understand are part of the package when we agree to play with someone. A child doesn’t understand the last impact of sex, their first sexual encounters no less, on themselves.

    There is no perfect world where it’s okay for adults to be sexual with kids. Not talking about the 18 year old & his 15 year old girlfriend. My ppl who are pedophiles, the age difference i much greater. Thus we’re back around to, the adult has all the power; the kid doesn’t; there’s likely an imbalance in the relationship (kid = child,or babysat, or student; adult = parent,or teacher or uncle) and BECAUSE OF THAT IMBALANCE OF POWER, a child CAN’T CONSENT TO SEX W/n ADULT. That won’t change when we’ve gotten rid of STD’s in Perfect Future World. The central imbalance – of dependence – between child & adult won’t be resolved. It’s part of what pedophiles likely find so attractive about children – their innocence & joy is frequently expressed above – but how d’ya think the molestation will affect that innocence & joy? If that’s what is so attractive about children, your actions on your desires will spoil it.

    Have adult relationships if possible. Make the pedophilia just a fantasy. Meet someone for age play. But don’t babysit, don’t teach. It’s not that all pedophiles are automatically gonna fall off the wagon, like someone above suggested not all ppl rape. What makes the situation so volatile, is that if someone tries to rape me, a grown woman, I can fight, kick, scream, cry. I know what they want. It’s a fight between equals, almost. If you put your hand on a little child’s thigh, they only know vaguely that something’s not right. They don’t know for sure what you want, & being young & vulnerable, they have an inordinately high desire to please you, the adult mentor figure.

    It’s never, ever, going to be okay to have a sexual/erotic relationship between an adult & a child. Even if they are curious. Even if they start it.

44. Second paragraph, second sentence should read: “MOST ppl who are pedophiles, the age difference IS much greater.” (Typing pre-coffee = bad)

45. 2nd paragraph, 2nd sentence should read: MOST ppl who are pedophiles, the age difference IS much greater”. (typing pre-coffee = bad.)

46. The “imbalance of power” argument is invalid, RSC, and Dan Savage has already shown us why:

    http://www.portlandmercury.com/2002-12-0&hellip;

    “An older person can, in good conscience, sleep with a younger person provided the older person obeys the Four Big Nos of Sleeping with a Young, Inexperienced Person: 1. Tell no lies. 2. Transmit no diseases. 3. Make no babies. 4. Break no hearts. […] While I’ll admit that the fourth No is tricky–despite the older person’s best efforts, the younger one can still wind up with a broken heart (and yes, Tommy, I’m thinking of you)–if the older person observes the first three Nos, then the older person can’t be condemned if the fourth doesn’t work out. “

47. The “imbalance of power” argument is invalid, RSC, and Dan Savage has already shown us why:

    http://www.portlandmercury.com/2002-12-0&hellip;

    “An older person can, in good conscience, sleep with a younger person provided the older person obeys the Four Big Nos of Sleeping with a Young, Inexperienced Person: 1. Tell no lies. 2. Transmit no diseases. 3. Make no babies. 4. Break no hearts. […] While I’ll admit that the fourth No is tricky–despite the older person’s best efforts, the younger one can still wind up with a broken heart (and yes, Tommy, I’m thinking of you)–if the older person observes the first three Nos, then the older person can’t be condemned if the fourth doesn’t work out. “

48. The “imbalance of power” argument is invalid, RSC, and Dan Savage has already shown us why:

    http://www.portlandmercury.com + /2002-12-05/savage.html

    “An older person can, in good conscience, sleep with a younger person provided the older person obeys the Four Big Nos of Sleeping with a Young, Inexperienced Person: 1. Tell no lies. 2. Transmit no diseases. 3. Make no babies. 4. Break no hearts. […] While I’ll admit that the fourth No is tricky–despite the older person’s best efforts, the younger one can still wind up with a broken heart (and yes, Tommy, I’m thinking of you)–if the older person observes the first three Nos, then the older person can’t be condemned if the fourth doesn’t work out. “

49. That’s an older person & a younger person, NOT an adult & a child. Dan likely meant..younger, but of legal age. There’s still an imbalance of power there, but it’s nowhere as extreme as between an adult person & a child. To repeat: Not saying, legal adult of 18 & teenage SO. We’re talking about a full-fledged adult, who should know better than to take advantage of a child, & a child, who is dependent upon the teacher/babysitter/uncle/fill in the blank. An older lover-younger love dynamic as described by Dan is two adults.

    Yeesh, you are reaching. Pedophila is wrong, the imbalance of power argument remains, given how big the difference/relationship level is, & the original letter writer even named himself “Knows It’s Wrong.” Not saying go to hell for your urges alone, but all these impassioned defenses of taking sexual advantage of children are as surprising as they are kinda disgusting. It seems dangerously close to rationalizing molestation.

    It’s wrong, sorry. Play with adults, who know the ramifications of sex, not kids, who deserve to find that out w/ their peers, in their natural time.

50. 305 comments. so this is what seattleites do instead of bathing. oooh everybody so worried about the poor “good pedophiles”. LOL BRB…

    blehhhhhh…bleaubbbbllll blahhhhhh….spit…spit…spit..

    ok i feel better now.

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