I, Anonymous

1. Ok you know what it does suck that we have rapist in our society… I agree with that! But it doesn’t help when some one goes out and gets wasted in front of a ton of potential rapist! I mean you may as well walk into a den of lions because you think they MIGHT be tame enough to just leave you alone… Why put yourself in that situation??? And to Annie Mouse… Maybe you should have tried being the bitch??? And maybe you should have confronted him about it rather than just laughing it off…

2. HE wasn’t drunk. WE weren’t drunk. SHE was drunk. Not him, not them. It is absolutley no different than drugging her into submission. He did. He just did it with alcohol instead of ruffies.

3. Sweet fucking christ, some people are just too damn dense for their own good.

   thatbrat, unlike lions, rapists can be held accountable for their actions. Also unlike lions being carnivorous, men (hopefully) aren’t MOSTLY rapists. It’s not the responsibility of a woman to go through life assuming that all of her friends are potential rapists. Do you really, REALLY fucking think that this is a more reasonable expectation than simply NOT RAPING A WOMAN? Do you really fucking think that it’s her actions that are more relevant?

   Between a rapist who rapes, and a rape victim who *gasp* DRINKS AT PARTIES, who do you think is in the wrong? Whose actions are the ones that need to be scrutinized? Whose actions are the ones that led to the rape: the one who became a little easier to rape, or the one who, you know, RAPED HER?

   How is it so goddamn hard for you people to understand? Once again, are you going to blame gunshot victims because “going outside is like walking into a LION’S DEN”?

   Annie Mouse, according to these people, you should have known better than to have any male friends or sexual interests, ever. Then, these very same people can call you a man-hating bitch without a hint of irony. Then, if you’re raped, they’ll say that it’s because you were such a man-hating bitch. You just can’t win with these desperate misogynists, always searching for a way to blame the woman.

4. Behold: Reason # 153 why it’s better to be gay.

   A gay guy won’t call you up the next day and say “My girlfriends says you raped me because I had a beer before sex!”

5. the title of this is slaying me. oh! it’s is almost as good as the front page seattle times article entitled “600 rescued dogs and 80% are pregnant!” oh…it hurts.

6. I dislike all these posts about who ought to be taking responsibility for what happens.

   Wake up people, YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE if you suffer the consequences. It doesn’t mean it’s your fault, but if you get drunk and get raped; or get drunk and get a girl pregnant; or get drunk and crash your car; or whatever – you can blame whomever you like but the consequences are still yours! We executed the Oklahoma City bomber, but all the families who lost loved ones aren’t somehow complete, they still have to deal with the consequences.

   So what I mean to say is, if you dont want to deal with getting raped, limiting your drinking is a good idea. Is it fair, or just? No, but you’ll have to accept the consequences of someone else doing bad things.

7. I’m not saying it is her fault! I am simply saying that we know this happens, so it seems rather stupid to go out and put yourself into a situation that is more than liely to end poorly for yourself! I in a way like LKBs point about drinking and driving… You drank, you put yourself behind the wheel (and into a potentialy hazardouse situation) and lost your ability to control what was going on around you… Do you blame the city for not making roads that are DUI friendly? Take a little responsibilty for the fact that you were stupid, and immature and made a mistake…

8. So LKB, because a raped person has to deal with the consequences, that makes it their responsibility? It’s funny; I probably would have used the Oklahoma City bombing victims as an example of a group who were victimized and are not responsible for it. Apparently, though, you think that they are. At least you’re consistent in your victim-blaming. Your analogy of a drunk driver is tired and flawed, though. Blaming a rape victim isn’t the same as blaming a drunk driver, because getting into a car while drunk and slamming into someone else are YOUR actions. Getting raped isn’t. A rape victim, in your analogy, is more like the person who gets hit by the drunk driver. Would it be that person’s responsibility to “deal with the consequences” of walking down the street late at night, when more drunks are on the road?

   And no, it’s not a woman’s responsibility to be paranoid that any of her friends can become a rapist at any time. It’s not her responsibility to determine how every scenario she “gets herself in” could possibly become a rape incident. It’s a would-be rapist’s responsibility to not rape women. How is that not reasonable?

   Like I said before, it’s one thing to advise someone not to drink too much, or not to walk alone at night in a bad part of town. It’s quite another, though, to believe that they’re responsible for their rape if it happens. Rape is an action committed by another person. It’s not a physiological response to alcohol. It’s not like men are forced to rape a woman once her blood alcohol level reaches a certain percentage. Show me a girl who’s complaining about, say, a hangover, and I’ll believe that she’s responsible for it by drinking too much. A girl who is raped by a separate, AUTONOMOUS entity, is NOT responsible for it. It’s not fucking rocket science. When one person violates another, the ease with which they were able to do it is fucking irrelevant, and doesn’t put any responsibility on the victim. It’s pretty easy for us normal folks to NOT rape someone no matter how drunk she is.

   Women don’t HAVE to be drunk, alone, scantily dressed, or flirtatious in order to get raped. Rapists, however, do have to commit the act of rape in order for it to occur. Besides, it’s not like wanting to get drunk and have a good time at a party is an unreasonable thing. Maybe it is a dangerous situation and she shouldn’t trust her friends; the point is that it’s not her responsibility to live her life in fear of engaging in the same fun shit that guys are free to do. If the reality of the situation is that drinking at a party is unsafe for women, then whose fault is that? The women (for having vaginas), or the rapists (for, you know, being rapists)?

9. Saying that a woman who gets too drunk to prevent someone from assaulting her needs to be accountable for that fact DOES NOT mean she is responsible for being raped. Accepting accountability is how we learn from our mistakes, but some here feel that she is in no way accountable for the fact that she lost control to begin with. Accepting accountability colors the context in which rape occurs and context is everything.

   When it comes to murder our courts and our society have very different views about whether the killing occurs due to a drunken hit-and-run, a bar fight gone bad, and cold-blooded premeditated murder. While each are decidedly wrong, we view and punish each case according to the context in which it occurs.

   But when it comes to rape, few seem willing to see gray areas—they act like rape is rape is rape. I do not agree. The specifics of the situation can vary greatly and the appropriate response depends on the situation. A serial rapist who breaks into houses or someone who drugs women to take advantage of them? Cut their nuts off, no joke. But a drunk guy who pushes too hard? It’s simply not the same thing. Jail time, counseling, etc. (and I know some here have said the guy was not drunk, I’m speaking generally, as are many posters).

   And Bonefish – SEVERAL posters have stated the belief that a drunk woman CAN NOT consent to sex. Non-consensual sex = rape. Therefore, these people are saying that sex when the woman is drunk it is rape. If this isn’t your belief, great, but your statement that no one here is saying this is wrong.

10. No, people are saying that in some states, the laws are written in such a way that a woman having one drink can serve as evidence in a rape case. People are also saying that if a woman is drunk ENOUGH, she can’t consent (this is true). The border where a woman becomes drunk enough not to consent is where people disagree.

    Wherever you believe that border lies, though, you simply cannot reasonably believe that it’s a woman’s responsibility to avoid crossing it before it becomes a man’s responsibility to avoid raping her afterwards. And how is “holding a woman accountable” for her actions that supposedly lead up to her rape any different from blaming her or holding her responsible? If she’s not to blame, then she’s not to blame. It means that it was the result of someone else’s actions, not her own. I’ll say this a third time; it’s fine to advise a person to be careful about drinking around others. But if they go ahead and drink, it doesn’t make them accountable for the actions of said others, just because it made things a little more convenient for them. When it comes to crimes that person A commits against person B, there’s a huge difference between person B failing to take precautions to prevent that crime (bulletproof vest, car security system, life of pure virginal chastity, etc), and person B being accountable for the crime. There’s such a huge divide in responsibility between a woman who drinks and a guy who rapes that it’s not even worth scrutinizing the actions of the woman. Like I said before, a woman can be as chaste and virtuous as El Virgin de Guadalupe and still be raped. The only common denominator in every rape case is the rapist; it’s not booze, dress, or the woman’s behavior. Therefore, the actions of a rapist are the most (if not only) relevant factor in a rape case: did he slip her drugs, did he see her in a comatose state and decide to take advantage, did he hit her with a brick in the park, etc. It really doesn’t matter if the woman made it a bit easier for him.

    And yes, a drunk guy who pushes too hard is committing rape. It may not be on the same scale as someone who kidnaps, tortures, and rapes a child, but it’s still rape. Whether or not he should get a lighter sentence for being a less brutal rapist is a different debate. Whether or not he is committing straight-up rape, and is completely at fault for it, is not debatable.

    That’s the thing about drunken sex; if they’re both participating enthusiastically, fine; both have consented and both are responsible. If one of them is out like a light, and only the other one is participating, then it’s rape, and the alcohol is no excuse. People say that it’s hypocritical to think that a drunk driver or drunken rapist is responsible despite the influence of booze, and yet a drunk rape victim isn’t. This is not hypocritical; there’s perfect logic to it. The drunk driver or rapist has DONE something to someone else, something that alcohol doesn’t MAKE you do no matter how much you have. We’ve all been completely shitfaced before, but not all of us get into cars or try to rape someone. The rape victim, on the other hand, didn’t do anything except drink and pass out. Booze MAKES you pass out if you drink enough. In both cases, yes, the person drank. But only in one case did they actively commit an offense against someone else afterwards. That’s a pretty significant difference.

11. First off let me state that this mans actions are disgusting and certainly would at the very least constitute assholery, and more likely rape.

    Secondly a response to Sara:
    Sara, Women can be disgusting too, and if a Woman has had a single drink then it is NOT automatically rape. It can certainly make a case stronger in some ways, but it’s much more complicated than just that. Is a single drink sufficient to render the woman incapable of issuing consent? Would she have otherwise consented? And the most frequently overlooked question is; What if the man had been drinking too? Surely that complicates factors much more since equality requires you to consider the possibility that the man is raped (depending on who initiated the encounter). I’m sure nobody takes this seriously, but consider my story.

    I once drank too much, and so I went to my room and passed out alone. Sometime later that night a girl I hardly knew came into my room while I was asleep, locked the door and proceeded to have sex with me. I was unable to give consent, and would most definitely not have if I were able. The only reason I know about the situation is because when I woke up she was still there.

    But that’s different because I’m a guy right? Wrong, equality means equal treatment. I was raped, and it happens more frequently than you know (although certainly less than it happens to females)…If you think female rape victims report rapes infrequently, imagine how few men do, and how few of the ones who do get taken seriously.

    A more appropriate statement would be “People can be disgusting”.

12. Also, Damnit Erik!, I applaud your enthusiasm in support of Feminism, but you are not doing the cause any favors when your language and vicious tone verge on misandry. People dismiss you as a hateful bigot. Remember that while it is called Feminism, a core principle is equality and mutual respect. Granted that the focus is on women because they are most in need of advocacy, but don’t lose sight of the goal…parity, not superiority.

13. I have known girls to bring charges (in a campus court) against guys they went after based on the “too drunk for consent” rules. If your evidence is a video of you stripping and then dry-humping a chair, to prove how drunk you were and that he therefor is guilty of rape, and if you admit that you made the first move, then it was not rape. You are just a binge drinking slut who refuses to learn a lesson from her mistakes and instead wants to deflect responsibility for her own actions and play the victim. Being seduced by a drunk naked woman is NOT rape!

    But for this letter, I don’t know the circumstances. I just think the writer was way to quick to label a guy as a rapist based on the fact that his date was bombed.

14. If he slipped her a “date rape” drug, then it’s rape. Anything short of that makes throwing around the word “rape” pretty dangerous.

    Lots of people intentionally get drunk to lower their inhibitions to engage in acts they really want to do but are too inhibited to act on.

15. You people here (sadly, mostly men) who think that it’s only rape if she says no or if he drugged her are sadly mistaken, and I hope you never end up having to explain yourself in court with that rationale because it won’t work. Regardless of whether you believe this is right or wrong, deserved or undeserved, it is a fact that if someone is so drunk that they are not capable of consenting, then you can be charged for rape (if she chooses to). It doesn’t even matter if she said yes the night before, because it isn’t about what she ACTUALLY said…it’s about what a court will BELIEVE she said, and this type of situation won’t look good for you.

    I’m not saying that you will be convicted (although if you said anything in court like you are saying here you would be) or even that this is the same as the type of rape conventionally thought of, but if a woman you had sex with under these circumstances wanted to charge you and could prove that you initiated sex with her this way, you would probably be found guilty.

    So regardless of if a person gets drunk to lower their inhibitions, or if he didn’t actually slip her the date rape drug, whether they should have been more careful, or whether you even think it’s fair…it doesn’t matter whether you’re right or wrong, because you would be guilty. So complain all you want, but watch out because “she got that drunk because she couldn’t bring herself to do it sober” isn’t going to cut it in court. In fact, if you try that excuse I guarantee you WILL be found guilty, and your lawyer should be disbarred for not stopping you from signing your confession.

16. You are my hero, Anon. If I didn’t have a boy already, I would track you down (this is coming from someone who loathes 99.999% of guys). Keep up the good work 🙂

17. So this is a little late to the debate but it’s also a sign that the girl is too drunk to consent if she’s not able to take the guy to her own room. Most girls (I realize that’s a generalization but it’s pretty well documented) MUCH prefer to have sex in their own beds. And some completely random person’s bed? No way…

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