I am a 22-year-old college grad who has been living at home for the last year. My parents are divorced, so I’ve gone back and forth from one place to the other. The other day, I was using my father’s computer, and the history came up on the search engine. It turns out that while I am in the house, my father views pornography that involves incest fantasies. I felt quite disturbed by what I saw—it made me physically sick—and I’m wondering if I should continue to have a relationship with my father.

In a week, I start a new job in another country—so I can get away from him for a while and think about my options. What should I do? Should I tell him that I know about it and I’m not interested in having a relationship with him anymore? Do I tell my friends or family? Should I trust what my gut is telling me and pack up, jump in a cab, and never talk to him again?

Disturbed And Distressed

There are people who are turned on by incest scenarios—hypothetical dads seducing hypothetical daughters, fictional moms seducing fictional sons—who are nevertheless revolted by the idea of actual incest, i.e., nonhypothetical fuck sessions with their own nonfictional family members. Many of these incest fetishists have sent me letters over the years, DAD, wondering what’s wrong with them. Or wondering what’s right with what’s wrong with them, I should say, as they’re turned on by incest fantasies but not, as they’re invariably relieved to add, by incest realities. So what gives?

It’s the thrill of violating a taboo, not a child; it’s the power dynamics that have been eroticized, not the parental dynamics—but that’s for another column. You wrote, DAD, because you don’t know what to do about your dad.

Unless your father has given you reason to suspect that he actually wants to fuck you—unless finding your dad’s porn helped you to identify a pattern of inappropriate behaviors on your father’s part with but one possible interpretation (he actually wants to fuck you)—let’s give your father the benefit of the doubt, shall we? Let’s assume that one of the many letters I’ve received from incest fetishists was written by your dad.

I’m operating under an assumption: again, that your father has never done anything that made you feel unsafe. If your discovery had led you to connect a bunch of deeply creepy dots, DAD, that’s surely something you would’ve mentioned in your letter. Which is why I’m not just urging you to give your father the benefit of the doubt, however revolting his taste in porn might be, but also to take what you found out about him and stuff it down the memory hole.

Don’t say anything to your father, DAD, or to anyone else. You no longer have to live with your father—or use his computer—and I see no need to terminate your relationship with him, or to go nuclear on his reputation, over a deeply creepy kink that your father neither asked for nor has ever attempted to act on.

1. Thirty-year-old gay man here. I was briefly dating someone until he was a huge asshole to me. I have since not had any contact with him. However, I have been Facebook stalking him and obsessing over pictures of the guys I assume he’s dating now. Why am I having such a hard time getting over him? Our relationship was so brief! He’s a major asshole!

2. It may help you to know that I lost my virginity by being raped when I was 19. I started dating only last year, because I thought sex was scary and never wanted to feel like that again and/or make anyone else feel like that. (The guy who raped me went on to become a born-again Christian!) This guy is only the second person I’ve ever dated. Do you think that’s relevant?

3. I used to have stretched-out earlobes. When I took my plugs out, I did get “earlabia,” but only for a few days, and then they closed up and no one really noticed.

Normal Earlobes Now

1. I can’t know for sure! But it sounds like you might still have feelings for this guy! Just a hunch!

2. I’m sorry that your very first sexual experience was so traumatic, NEN, and indeed it strikes me as relevant. You were violated and powerless during your very first sexual experience and now, 10 years later, your relationship ended in a way that left you feeling violated and powerless. Stalking your ex on Facebook gives you a feeling of power over him, NEN, but that power is bogus, stalking him is making you miserable, and it’s pushing back the date that you’re finally over this guy. Knock it off.

3. You’ve given me hope for all the otherwise cute boys I see wandering around with stretched-out earlabia.

Hipster boys! Keep stretching your earlobes! I’m a hipster girl and stroking the silky texture of a nice stretched-out set of earlobes gets me insanely wet. And tongue-fucking a stretched piercing is enough to bring me most of the way to orgasm. If there are chicks with a kink for something, then surely there must be dudes who have a kink for it, too.

I stretched my own earlobes 20 years ago for mostly sexual reasons. I like the way it looks, but I did it primarily because I get off on having my ears fondled and licked. I figured that if someone licking the outside of my earlobe felt so good, imagine if someone could lick the inside of my earlobe! Now they can—and it’s bliss!

I’m not saying you have to change your mind, Dan, because YKIOBINMK—your kink is okay but it’s not my kink—but I was disappointed that you would come out so strongly against stretched-out earlobes. You’re always defending lesser kinks. Could it be that you were unaware of mine?

Yes, Ears Are Hot

I know enough about sex—and enough about kink—to know that if something exists, someone out there somewhere is perving on it. And if a particular something is made of human flesh and has a hole in the middle of it, someone out there somewhere is sticking fingers, tongues, dicks, or gerbils in it, making sex tapes while they do it, and then posting the video on the World Wide Interwebs for all to enjoy.

Somehow it didn’t occur to me that there were earlabia fetishists out there, so I appreciate—kindasorta—you taking the time to clue me in. While I may disapprove of silky, stretched-out sets of earlabia, YEAH, I will defend to the death your right to tongue them.

You’re going to catch hell for your earlobe observation, but I have to add this: I worked with a young man who decided that gauging his earlobes to the max was a sexy thing to do. When the look got old, he took the plugs out. Because of the size of the plugs, the holes in his ears would not close. He had to have them surgically cut and stitched, which made his ears look somewhat deformed. The cost was $800, and it wasn’t covered by insurance.

Just Saying

You’ve filled me with despair for all the otherwise cute boys I see wandering around with stretched-out earlabia.

Find the Savage Lovecast (my weekly podcast) every Tuesday at thestranger.com/savage.

mail@savagelove.net

139 replies on “Savage Love”

  1. lolanevins @98: Unless you have proof that Dan & Terry’s public statements about how their marriage progressed to open are lies, you are a libellous fuck.

    So, any proof that they’ve been lying? Any proof that there was bullying?

  2. I’m not loving some of the more vitriolic responses to DAD. (Hunter78, I’m lookin’ at you.) Yes, she’s creeped out, but I think that most people her age, in her situation, would be. Even Dan admits that DAD’s dad’s (apparent) kink is “deeply fucking creepy.” Personally, if I discovered my father had a secret yen for daddy/daughter porn, I’d be throwing a one-woman angst-o-palooza. Yeah, I’d probably get over it — but I’d also probably end up trusting my father just a little bit less. (Admittedly, my relationship with my father is cordial but not overly close, and has gone through some major rough patches, which is likely coloring my reaction to DAD’s letter.)

    A lot of readers seem eager to give DAD’s dad the benefit of the doubt. Fair enough, but why not give DAD the benefit of the doubt as well? There’s no reason to assume she set out to snoop; perhaps she checked the browser history to revisit a site whose name she couldn’t remember. Or perhaps the culprit was the browser’s auto-suggest function: she started searching for, say, “daughters of the American revolution” or “daughter cell,” and instead got a list of suggestions like “daughter sucks daddy’s hard cock” and “daughter daddy incest story.” (DAD’s own description of what happened — “the history came up on the search engine” — makes it sound like this might be the case.)

    Granted, this is not to say that DAD was necessarily an innocent victim of happenstance. She may have been deliberately peeping at digital keyholes, in which case she has nobody but herself to blame that she didn’t like what she saw. But regardless of whether she was snooping or just unlucky, I think it’s a bit much to ask her to immediately be at peace with the possibility that her father might have a hard-on for daughter figures in general and/or her in particular.

    Yeah, I understand that the content of one’s browser history does not equal the content of one’s character; I sure as hell wouldn’t want to be judged by my tastes in porn. And not having seen the actual browser history in question, it’s difficult to judge just how much DAD is overreacting. If DAD’s dad looked at a wide variety of porn sites, only a few of which were incest-themed, then he was probably doing some indiscriminate porn-surfing and happened to like the looks of the actors, as some commenters have suggested. If, on the other hand, he was looking at (or reading) oodles of incest-themed porn and nothing but . . . well, that suggests he’s got a bona fide incest kink.

    Yes, it’s entirely possible to fantasize about, or even roleplay, sex acts that one would never want to actually engage in. Like most people, I have a few fantasies that will never see the light of reality — because as much as I get off on breaking the applicable taboos in my head, I cringe at the thought of breaking them in the real world. But even if our fantasies don’t neatly predict our actual sexual behavior, neither are they totally divorced from it. Or, in other words, there’s a very good chance that a father who reads incest porn doesn’t actually want to bone his daughter — but, let’s face it, the odds that he does want to bone his daughter are probably better than average.

  4. IF NOTHING ELSE,

    we should have learned to have password protection on our porn sources if there is any possibility of anyone we don’t want to know about said porn gaining access. Providing a fully sanitized guest computer, given how cheap computers have become/what do you do with the old computer, is a very good idea. If you’re visiting DON’T GO LOOKING FOR TROUBLE (see if you can log into/create another user with minimal privileges aside from the main user account).

    Keep in mind, not everyone is GGG. OTOH, if someone picks your locks, they shouldn’t be surprised that may not like what they find. I have serious issues with incest fantasy because I encountered the real thing, but then someone else’s fatasy life really isn’t any of my business.

    Peace.

  5. “Or, in other words, there’s a very good chance that a father who reads incest porn doesn’t actually want to bone his daughter — but, let’s face it, the odds that he does want to bone his daughter are probably better than average.”

    This.
    You actually summed up something I had been trying to say re: an earlier thread so much better than I was ever able to. So thank you.

  6. @116: I doubt it. The odds that he wants to bone a girl the age of his daughter (or son) are probably better than average, but I doubt it’s his daughter (or son) he’s interested in.

    S/he mentions watching porn, not reading it, so he’s actually looking at hot young girls (or guys) that aren’t her*. Plus, she said his porn history includes incest fantasies. It probably also includes teacher-student and father-babysitter stuff.

    @48 & @67 both mentioned narcissism on DAD’S part, and I’d totally agree. The unconscious narcissism of youth rather than a more malignant form, but still fundamentally narcissistic.

    *Assume that I keep making this gender neutral for the rest of this post. I’m feeling lazy.

  7. 113– I agree. If a man or woman can enjoy a certain sort of porn while simultaneously not wanting to act on the fantasy, why can’t DAD be seriously creeped out while simultaneously not taking her father’s fantasy seriously? Why can’t s/he feel like never talking to her father again and at the same time write to Dan, get some perspective, and decide that her gut reaction really isn’t sensible in the long run? I understand DAD’s letter. I don’t understand the majority response here which is to pile on him/her for writing it.

    This is why we’re lucky to have Dan. He helps us think these things through. It’s not unusual to have a strong negative gut response to thinking about any number of sexual acts that we ourselves personally don’t find appealing. With a little luck, we have someone to help us think it through and realize that we can be disgusted without having to beat up the person whose tastes are different. (Or kill, or deny a job to, or keep our children away from, or throw out of the military, or bully in school.)

  8. @117

    Agree to disagree.
    Though “I want to bang men/women the age of my daughter/son” is more likely than “I want to bang my daughter/son”. That doesn’t change the poster’s original point, which I 100% agree with.

    Ya’ll are quick to defend him, and not her.
    I think she deserves just as much benefit-of-the-doubt as he does, esp as a potential victim.

  10. I don’t know… but at 22 years old, if I ever saw porn on my father’s computer depicting or suggesting incest fantasies I would be upset. Wouldn’t matter how much porn I watch or how much porn I accept other people watch. DAD’s reaction, in my opinion, is understandable. And, if any of you stake claim that at that age (or any age) you would not be taken aback by finding this on your parent’s computer then I call all your bluffs, I don’t care how indifferent you state you are.

    What if the depictions were of an older man seducing a young boy. Or any other depictions that cross the threshold from what is merely fantasy and what may be cause for concern. It’s all objective, but there should still be awareness. I would certainly hope that if you came across suggestions of sexual exploitation of concern that you would not be so apathetic to pass it off as someone’s mere fantasy – just because maybe you have decided that you can distinguish the difference. Projection, in this case, has the potential to be very dangerous.

    Also, DAD never mentioned that s/he felt threatened by his/her father with regard to whether he would feel compelled to actually act out these depictions so I think labelling him/her as a narcissist is a little presumptuous and pretentious.

    Perhaps it is just the discomfort of being around his/her father knowing a very personal part of him that as a daughter/son you would feel very uncomfortable knowing.

    I know for myself I came across a home-made porn between my father and his then girl friend when I thought I was popping a VHS of ET into my VCR. It took me a long time to be able to look at my father the same again which had nothing to do with me being a prude. It was just shocking and there really isn’t much more to it than that, imo.

  11. I don’t know… but at 22 years old, if I ever saw porn on my father’s computer depicting or suggesting incest fantasies I would be upset. Wouldn’t matter how much porn I watch or how much porn I accept other people watch. DAD’s reaction, in my opinion, is understandable. And, if any of you stake claim that at that age (or any age) you would not be taken aback by finding this on your parent’s computer then I call all your bluffs, I don’t care how indifferent you state you are.

    What if the depictions were of an older man seducing a young boy. Or any other depictions that cross the threshold from what is merely fantasy and what may be cause for concern. It’s all objective, but there should still be awareness. I would certainly hope that if you came across suggestions of sexual exploitation of concern that you would not be so apathetic to pass it off as someone’s mere fantasy – just because maybe you have decided that you can distinguish the difference. Projection, in this case, has the potential to be very dangerous.

    Also, DAD never mentioned that s/he felt threatened by his/her father with regard to whether he would feel compelled to actually act out these depictions so I think labelling him/her as a narcissist is a little presumptuous and pretentious.

    Perhaps it is just the discomfort of being around his/her father knowing a very personal part of him that as a daughter/son you would feel very uncomfortable knowing.

    I know for myself I came across a home-made porn between my father and his then girl friend when I thought I was popping a VHS of ET into my VCR. It took me a long time to be able to look at my father the same again which had nothing to do with me being a prude. It was just shocking and there really isn’t much more to it than that, imo.

  12. It’s true that there are a HUGE number of incest-porn-watching freaks out here… I happen to be one of them! And Dan hit the nail on the head… It is the taboo-and-power-dynamic that is the fetish… And in NO WAY do I (or most other) incest fantasizers wish to jump the gap from fun freaky fantasy to real-life nastiness!

  14. @117
    I would be surprised if viewing incest porn was NOT correlated with actual incest desire. Remeber, this does not establish a causal relationship between the two; however, in the grand statistical scheme of things, finding the first factor does increase the probability of finding the second.

    This is what @113 meant by “better than average.” Yes, it is still very unlikely that her father actually wants to engage in incest. Yet his odds are better (worse?) than a random sample.

    Don’t know any population stats about this sort of thing, so I can’t comment on whether or not she should actually be worried.

  16. @118: I don’t see those two as equivalent. I didn’t get the impression that the Letter Writer was merely fantasizing about severing all ties with her father while she came to terms with her discomfort. There’s a difference between being squicked but not taking it all that seriously in the first place, versus writing in with an apparent plan to detonate an important relationship and getting talked down from the ledge.

    That said, I agree that the average 22-year-old is comparatively young and naive to be expected to handle a revelation like that with logic and equanimity. (Don’t tell them I said that; implying they are less than fully mature will piss them off all over again.) Good thing there are people around to look at the situation in a little more depth and talk some sense into them when it does happen.

  17. @121 Sure people would be grossed out, but why anyone would even consider destroying someone else’s social life over porn that involves consenting adults is beyond me.

    “I would certainly hope that if you came across suggestions of sexual exploitation of concern that you would not be so apathetic to pass it off as someone’s mere fantasy – just because maybe you have decided that you can distinguish the difference.”

    Now you’re pretty much putting incest porn on par with something like child pornography while simutanously trying to guilt trip us. Nice.

  18. “Earlabia” is funny. Dan’s good with words and acronyms. If you’re disturbed by a made-up up a word that has a bit of an erotic flavor, you are reading the wrong blog. Read something else and don’t whine.

    As for “Disturbed And Distressed” – politely ignore it the way you would an old lady’s fart.

    Personal computers are PERSONAL and people who are not accustomed to having a guest user and aren’t very savvy about computers are gonna leave stuff available to snooping eyes. Get your own computer, use one at the public library if you aren’t mature enough to be a polite computer guest or tell your dad that for his privacy and yours, you’d like for him to have a password protected user account and to give you a password protected user account because you don’t want him to be embarrassed if you leave something embarrassing in your own search history on his computer.

    Unless you’ve had uncomfortable incest-vibe from your dad, I would bet your dad is not thinking of you at all when he’s watching incest-fantasy porn.

  19. Don’t care if it’s relevant or not. Just realized that, by volume, straight Republicans are most likely producing more santorum than the Gays they detest for producing it. Wonder how long it would take before Rick would drown in it…

  20. In my early teens my parents came across a kinky story I wrote. My dad sat me down to give me a ‘talking-to.’ I don’t remember what he said, because as soon as he told me what had happened, my brain exploded. I don’t see how any catharsis can come from DAD venting to her father – it’ll just give him a horrible memory.

  21. your advice is somewhat stupid and you always go off on things not relating to what person has asked you, I just read your column when taking a dump.stick to answering the questions, using some brains and not going off on stupid shit, how did u get that job, anyone could do it.

  22. I’m a big (gay) consumer of incest porn. I felt guilty and disgusted by my fetish for a long time, but therapy made me realize that incest porn is incredibly common, and that the fantasy, for me, anyway, is about power issues with my estranged father. I don’t actually want to fuck my dad – I can’t even visualize it without getting queasy. When reading my stories (on nifty.org), i’m visualizing characters that fit into the tales unfolding. Never an actual parent, brother, sister or cousin in the mix. I think for me it fills some fantasy about being wanted by the father that rejected me upon learning I was gay. I prefer very specific scenarios. Sometimes I’m the high school junior whos’caught wanking by his totally hot dad; other times i’m a twent-something father of a six year old who needs a bath.

  23. Ugh, my comment got cut off and the ending sounded really creepy. The final sentence was: No matter what the scenario, it’s strictly fantasy. Period.

  25. I like reading True Crime stories. Does that mean I want to become a serial killer? I can’t stand snoops, DAD. Checking the history on a computer that is not yours is snooping. I doubt it just ‘came up’ as you put it. If you do tell your friends and family that you were snooping on your father’s computer, and have decided to sever your relationship and ‘out’ him based on that, I think you will be the one who comes off as the creep. Go to your new job in another country, and hope that you grow up while you are there.

  26. I think Dan’s advice to DAD is right on the money, but I also think that the point needs to be made that he might not even be into incest or older guy/younger woman fantasies at all. I wouldn’t have thought of this, but I read this letter with my boyfriend and he told me that he sometimes watches incest porn because the girls look more “normal.” Maybe DAD’s dad just doesn’t like the usual porn star look and incest porn is a good way to see “normal”-looking girls.

  31. @24, “One of the worst experiences I ever had happened on Twitter.”

    My God, if that’s true, shut the F up already and give thanks to whatever higher power you believe in. You’re a hell of a lot luckier than I am.

  32. I saw you on the street the other day, and I cried. I thought, “Why hasn’t he been hit and smashed to smithereens by an 18 wheeler yet?”

  38. @39 – i can relate to what you’re saying…i sometimes look up erotic stories on anal sex and (depending on the story plot) find it stimulating but in reality grosses and freaks me out…so much so that when an ex-bf played with my butthole i totally lost the mood…so there you are…just bec someone views it doesn’t mean IRL they’ll do it…

    i agree with the other commenters who said someone else could’ve used your dad’s comp and looked up the incest porn OR even that he just was turned on the actress playing…

    dan’s right…unless there some other instances where you felt disturbed by your father;s behavior towards you, just let sleeping dogs lie and have fun on your new job

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