Savage Love

1. unfortunately, most get married either too soon, or with too little forethought. I suspect that in this case she knew nonmonagamy was not for her, but admitting that to either her fiance or to herself would have stopped the wedding. To her credit, it sounds like she tried it for his sake, and a dozen times is not a little effort. However, she knew and agreed to this repeatedly. I have difficulty having a lot of sympathy here.

   If, like many, this is a goal oriented relationship, (as in; her goal is to have the wedding, snare the man and the living marriage be damned) then anything like this would jeopardize the goal. I had a five year long relationship that moved in a similar way, I was honest about my needs, she accepted this until it came up, then she could not handle it. It is sad, but we have a duty to be honest about such things.

2. Why did the SBOOO’s husband marry her? She said she’d explore swinging, not commit to it. Seems to me that she has explored it. And any woman with a rape fantasy will tell you, what’s good in your head might not be good in real life. SO she thought swinging would be good and it turned out it wasn’t: not her fault. BUT, why would a guy to whom this is so important marry a woman who hasn’t even tried it out? I’m a sub and I know it, and I wouldn’t wait until after the wedding to be dominated. If for some reason I had to put it off, I’d wait to get married. If this is such a big deal for him then he should have made sure he knew exactly what cards were in her hand before he proposed. It seems to me that they were both honest, but that she underestimated the level of importance this held for him, and he overestimated the level of commitment in the words “explore” and “experiment”.

   Maybe they can make it work, MAYBE, but they need a marriage counselor who knows up front that they want to find a way for HER to be okay with HIS swinging, not to just change him.

3. One reason Dan was so harsh with SBOO is in the first line in his second paragraph. No Marriage Counselor I can imagine (except maybe in the weirdest of California) is going to be on the guy’s side. So Dan’s making up for the leventeen couselors SBOO is going to dial up to bolster her case by coming down on her HARD (sic). While I winced once or twice while reading it, I can not say Dan’s advice OR his tone was anywhere but bullseye. Please. “My career kept me too busy to test-drive – even once, even one evening, even TWO HOURS – the one deal breaker my Fiance, Future Husband, Soul Mate and Till-Death-Do-Us-Part-Guy had.” Honesty has to be part of any lasting relationship, let alone a marriage. She was not honest with him, and if she’s telling the truth about thinking she’d be GGG, not honest with herself. And, like all the realists here, I think she’s not being honest (yes, LYING) to us in her story. She thought she could change him. (Gee, we NEVER hear that from a bride-to-be, do we?)

   Dan – once again – rocks.

4. The biggest problem I have with this letter is that SBOOO gives no details except that the night they discussed him going elsewhere for sex, he offered to go to a stripclub. Does no one see this story as incredibly manipulative and designed to place SBOOO in the best light possible? She only mentioned that action to twist the knife and somehow make it seem like her husband is a jerk.

   I can’t believe the readers are harping on that detail… we don’t know the entirety of the conversation yet people are up in arms about how insensitive the husband is. That’s exactly how SBOOO wants you to react! Why else include that little tidbit?

   Wake up, people, and see this letter for the self-serving, self-pitying bullshit it is.

5. Your response to SBOOO-hoohoo was right on. If anything, you went easy on her. Women think they can CHANGE a man by marrying him. When will they learn!

6. Well, it looks like the consensus among Savage Love readers is that your advice to SBOOO was spot on. I have to agree and no amount of terseness should be spared in dumping her problems right where they belong in her lap. There are men out there who aspire to monogamy, tho probably rare (95% of mammals are NOT monogamous by nature). When a guy tells you upfront that he enjoys variety – he is being honest. To lie to him about accepting that and later moaning that you don’t like it is just plain dishonest and idiotic.

7. thanks, dan! i’m poly myself, and i always appreciate when someone vocally sticks up for poly people. especially someone as widely read and trusted as dan savage.

   i almost never disagree with you!

   why the heck would you marry someone that you don’t really KNOW you’re compatible with? if you were a straight man, would you marry a lesbian? what if you were best friends and you really loved each other?

8. your advice to sbooo was ok but incomplete. he has obligations too. this entire marraige isn’t about him fulfilling his sexual desires. i think that divorce is not the only option, and that they should examine this “outward trajectory” thing. if he is ONLY interested in sex with other people and not with her, that’s not ok either. if he is making an honest effort to please her as well as please himself, and she is making an honest effort to accept his sex with other people, then maybe it could work. i think at this point neither one of them is doing all they could be, because they are too angry with each other.

9. It’s true that SBo3’s husband was foolish for not insisting she try it before they got married, and its true that she may also have been “foolish” for not trying it – although it’s more likely that she was one or more of scheming/ selfish/ self-delusional.

   He’ll pay for that foolishness in alimony for a looong time while she’ll be rewarded with all the sympathy and $$ she needs.

10. Advice to LOADED: Whatever else you do, drink pomegranate juice.

11. Want to takes bets that she will be pregnant before she get divorced?

    Nothing perks up a sex life better than kids screaming all the time.

12. I am in a similar situation to SBOOO. I entered into a relationship with someone about a year ago. I told him from the beginning that monogamy was not an option for me; however since it was a new idea to him I would take it slow and not jump into bed with someone else right away. Its been a year and he is still saying, “not yet.”

    I told him from day one that is what I feel is best for me. Sadly we both know that me being nonmonogamous and him being monogamous means our relationship is going to end. However, he isn’t being a whiny jerk about it. You can’t be in a happy relationship with someone that isn’t happy. It sucks, so figure out a way to compromise or move on and find someone more compatible.

13. So many people hating on SBOOO! This is one of those situations that you can’t really know how you’ll feel about till it happens. Which means Dan is right regarding the “shoulda tried it BEFORE you got hitched,” but it doesn’t make her an evil person or an idiot. Nor does it mean divorce is the only option.
    Sounds to me like what she needs is a supportive community (not to be found here, apparently!) and some good advice from people who have been there. There are thoughtful listservs for swingers/poly people, and (finally!) some good books on the topic (check out Jenny Block’s “Open: Love, Sex, and Life in an Open Marriage”). So SBOOO’s husband likes to fuck strangers; SHE’s the one he fell in love with enough to make a lifelong commitment to. It takes a lot more than a couple conversations to cast off a lifetime of pro-monogamy socialization, and in my experience it’s often harder for women (since they get socialized a lot more intensely in this regard). It’s conceivable that SBOOO could expand her horizons enough to tolerate, if not embrace, swinging. Sure, she should have done this before tying the knot, but that doesn’t mean it’s too late. If you’re reading this, SBOOO, do some reading before you rush out to find a lawyer.

14. Dan
    SBooo had it coming but I feel for the hubby. I had this cool chick;- loved movies, books, sex, making out,hanging with my friends etc.
    2 years into the marriage;- hates my friends, No oral, (for either of us) hates movies, reading books, kissing.
    Turns out what she really loves to do in bed is eat snacks while watching TV.
    sb

15. Hmmmm. Thought I think your final advice to SBOOO is spot on, I have trouble with your degree of criticism. SBOOO did communicate, and there was no indication that she lied when she said that she was interested in exploring those issues. Sure, she discovered that she’s a lot smaller of a person then she thought that she was, but since when are you down on exporing your sexuality. Exploring often leads to failure – finding things that you don’t like. SBOOO thought she liked the idea of merry-go-rounds, but then discovered the unpleasant side of motion sickness. Wasn’t it also her partner’s responsibility to be sure that tey were both good with swinging before they got married? And why was a swinger so interested in marriage? There were clear failures on his part – in particular the glaring obnoxiousness of leaving his wife on the very night of this conversation to go swing. Don’t you think that that might have been a good time to go for dinner and do something togther (if he was actually in interested in his wife rather than just possessing one). Sorry, Dan, I don’t usually comment, but you ripped one half of a real two person problem on this one. Divorce now, SBOO!

16. Whether or not SBOOO was open to the idea or not, the fact is that if she had been smart enough to think that perhaps, this is something she should investigate BEFORE getting married she’d have found out long before the nuptials that she wasn’t into it, saving herself all this heartache. It’s hard to have sympathy for someone who FUCKING KNEW her husband would want to do this and then instead of making sure she was down, busted out some lame ass excuse about being “too stressed at work” which is such a patently obvious lie, I’m astounded anyone believed it.

    However, her husband is ALSO a raging moron who should have pressed the issue to make sure he was marrying someone who would be able to fulfill him sexually. It’s hard to have sympathy for someone who accepted “oh, we’ll explore it after we get married, hon” instead of doing more to ensure that he was marrying someone who wouldn’t flake out on him.

    She probably thought when she married him she could change him, and she would suddenly be “enough” for him. If she tried it a couple times and said she wasn’t into it, maybe she thought he would give it up for her sake, and she’s now discovering that that isn’t the case. But couldn’t he have waited a week before skipping off to an orgy? It sounds like she wants to be GGG for him, but needs a little help to get there.

17. Excellent reply to SBOOO. False advertising is always fucked up.

    And I’m a monogamist, BTW. I’d hate to think what it would be like were I deceived into marriage with a woman who claimed to also be a monogamist, only to find out after it was too late that she wasn’t. Ick.

18. Dan,
    Clearly SBOOO made a mistake not exploring the swinging thing before marriage, but Jesus you really blasted her for it. I agree with you that her husband is unlikely to change because, well, he told her so! Without all the judgment, you could have said simply that she made the mistake and it’s hers to fix. She needs to decide if she can live with the situation and leave if she can’t. If she does leave, she should do it in a way that doesn’t make her husband look like an asshole or blame him for it. But I guess you have to entertain as well as advise so most everyone gets a good laugh at SBOOO’s expense.

19. I think that one reason Dan came down so hard on SBOOO was the privilege issue: her husband wants to sleep around and she doesn’t. In the eyes of the vast majority of the people out there — including a grossly disproportionate number of therapists and judges — that makes him Ze Bad Guy, period. If she tells why they’re getting divorced he is not going to get a fair shake from his family, friends, or the courts. She is in a position of strength thanks to the culture around her and so should be able to deal with a little bit of a verbal ass-whipping.

    BTW, I’m with those who call bullshit on the “no time to try it before marriage!” excuse. She didn’t try it before marriage either because she knew she wouldn’t like it, or believed she wouldn’t like it. Either way she clearly knew or intuited going in that This Wasn’t For Her. Kudos to her for trying, but she knew. (And, to be honest, I do wonder just how passive aggressive resistant those efforts were.)

    BTW2: Put me in the category of those who are profoundly suspicious of therapists. I saw ’em in operation in the dozens of divorce files that I handled. Most of them, whatever their other merits, had a “it’s the husband’s fault” default setting, (which was very useful when representing the wife).

20. I STILL (STILL) don’t understand why someone who just wants to run around and fuck random people would want to get married in the first place. What’s the point? Can anyone explain this?

    Marriage is supposed to be a partnership, which is why couples swing together. Same as grocery shopping together, eating together, etc. You love your wife, you find her hot, you want to do stuff together, including group sex or whatever because you both like that too. This is swinging.

    Random fucking without your spouse isn’t swinging. It’s random fucking. It’s basically what you do when you are single. So why get married?

21. @ the outer rim at 6:31 pm:

    A spouse is a life partner on whom you rely for countless things. A lover is a sex partner on whom you rely for only one thing. Having somebody that you want to be committed to for everything else in life is not incompatible with wanting sex with other people. You’re just restating a position that drives poly folks nuts: that one’s sex life must be irretrievably fixed to one’s person and that no true commitment can exist without monogamy.

22. “to one person”

23. As for SBOOO, I agree that they should part now as cleanly as possible. BUT. One aspect of swinging, to which I can ruefully attest, is that often male partners are less interested in satisfying than being satisfied. Then there are all those variables like preferences, hygiene, bad breath, awful technique, or basic incompatibility. These problems can often be happily addressed within a long term relationship of whatever sort, but become major obstacles to pleasure in one-off [sic] situations.

    You guys sometimes forget that women’s orgasms are not the foregone conclusion that yours tend to be.

24. In regard to SBOOO, he was honest, and I’d bet almost anything that SBOOO thought that she could change him after they were married. This is a common illusion (or delusion) that has destroyed a lot of marriages. I’ve heard that line from a lot of divorcing friends–mostly women.

25. Going through the responses, (and especially the one from Chris down in The Couv) we the reader just don’t know what SBOOO said to her husband before their marriage – about how much ‘she was into it’ even through she had her doubts. Yes husband should have been more careful to involve his wife in his parties before they were married. There were some writers who were saying how the partying wasn’t happening before the marriage – but I bet it was for the husband. SBOOO just wasn’t part of it.

    The part I don’t see in any of these responses, or the letter from SBOOO was exactly what kind of parties she was expected to be part of. Maybe her thing was to be only involved with one other person, another guy or gal, a couple or a small group. It seems husband went off with any stranger(s) and maybe SBOOO just didn’t like that. In the end, they both should have been more honest about their needs. It’s too bad because they were probably compatible in other areas.

26. SBOOO, like many women, thought she could change her almost perfect man into the perfect, faithful one she wanted–a man who only had eyes for her. But what about this thought… Why did hubby marry her without one single “experimentation”?Hmmmmmmmmm? If swinging is such an important part of his sex life, wouldn’t that be worth a test? KInd of an Alexander Dumbass, don’t you think? Oh well… like many of us he ingnored a big red flag and married the manipulative bitch anyway.

27. I’ve had many great monogamous relationships, some long term, some lasting only a few months. The bigger problem here seems to be with the fetish of marriage, as if any desire by our partners should be accommodated to preserve the union. Many people seem to judge her because she didn’t know or reveal her preferences BEFORE they got married, as if everything should have been laid out before the big dress was donned. Honestly, does it matter when she decided/revealed/discovered that swinging wasn’t for her? Marriage is the anachronism. Not monogamy.

28. Hey, SBOOO. I have an idear that will make you feel a lot better.

    You know that guy? The incredibly hot guy at work you always lust after, with a face like Jon Hamm? Invite the gang to happy hour. Get him away from the herd. Tell him about your open relationship… that you’re free to have NSA sex. And then do it. You don’t realize the gift you’ve been given. Use it.

29. I ONLY read the city paper, because of you! If you don’t have a column that week, I don’t read the paper! Thanx, I learned sooooo much!

30. Yeah I agree that SBOOO had that coming but I also think that they both jumped to rationalize the situation too quickly before marriage. If she didn’t have any experience with open relationships prior why didn’t they tested it out before getting hitched! Both people have a responsiblility to protect their neededs and make sure the other isn’t putting on a good show before such commitments are made. It sounds like he projected a bit too, he should have made sure they tried it before marring her. Swinging/open/poly is the type of thing you’re either into or not, and you don’t know if your into until you try it. She may have been dishonest and does sound like an idiot but I think he is too for not making her walk the talk before commiting. So I don’t feel too sorry for him either. All this is assuming the person is for real, this letter had a false vibe about it.
    Dan I have to say you are cranky lately. I’m a regular reader of SLOG and noticed some of your answers to student questions were a bit turse. Drooling pussy eaters can give you yeast infections let alone feel really creepy and gross…. but oh yeah you don’t care about pussy so just tell the twats their pussy will melt. Orignal.
    Well even though I hate it when you get shitty (your writing isn’t as good) I still dig you. I hope your winter travels come to an end very soon and hope your mood improves.

31. yeah no one has any sympathy for sbooo. i get that. way to chum the water for all us sharks, dan!

32. While I don’t sympathize w/SBOOO, I don’t blame her either, as people change their minds/values/priorities all the time. Once she realized this, the only choice, difficult as it is, is to break up & move on.

    But I’d also be curious to know what the husband’s take is on this, i.e. does he love his wife enough to give up the extramarital stuff? If not, all the more reason for the split.

33. The only thing I’d change about the response to SBOOO is in the first sentence: it should read, “You are a FUCKING idiot.”

34. “I’d also be curious to know what the husband’s take is on this, i.e. does he love his wife enough to give up the extramarital stuff?”

    Ummm… I kinda think that Dan has made clear that — IHHO — getting the husband to give this up once he was in the marriage was kinda a central objective from the get-go.

35. ugh SB is the kind of woman who ruins things for the rest of us. Not all women are that insecure and need to misrepresent themselves in order to ‘snag’ an amazing man. No wonder women are seen as manipulative and fickle.

    Some women know exactly what they want and know themselves sexually enough to KNOW whether monogamy is for them or not.

    That said, Dan, I love you.

36. great response to SBOO. My guess is you nailed it. I’m impressed. keep it up!

37. Dan – you lack compassion and give poor advice.

38. I thought you were a bit harsh on SBOOO. Why not refer to her to a poly/mono group? At least she has an honest husband who was up-front with her from the get-go, and that’s a positive. I doubt that their marriage will work in the long run, but you never know. Sometimes people adjust.

39. RIGHT ON re: SBOOO.

    RIGHT. ON.

40. SBOOO reminds of me of Fag Hags who fall in love with their gay male friends, despite it being made perfectly clear from the outset that such guys are gay, with the hopes that their love will “straighten” them out — and then the Fag Hags resent the gay men when this inevitably Does Not Happen.

41. 20th century, meet the 21st. The key statement in SBoo-hoo’s letter is “I can’t help but feel hurt that I alone am not enough for him.” That’s the old-thinking, the huge ego-stroking demand of partners (male & female) that they’re so fucking incredible & important that their spouses should be completely satisfied w/ just them. No one is enough for anybody. At least the poly-people try to put their desires in practice, most people just settle. And no one’s ego is so important that another should sacrifice their own dreams for it.

    That “I should be everything for my partner” is a tired ego-stroke that’s no longer useful. It should be called the Old Perversion.

42. Here’s my question: did they not have sex at all before they got married? Cause otherwise I find it incredibly difficult to believe that hectic work schedule or not that SBOOO couldn’t have figured this out a little bit. If she’s too rushed to have had anything but once or twice with him, perhaps she should have put dating or marriage on hold in the first place until she could devote more energy to it. Stupid bint

43. I feel no pity for SBOOO – quite a few women I know (and men, for that matter) go into a relationship or marriage thinking that they can change a fundamental personality aspect, or kink, or bad habit. They then become disappointed or upset when the change that was so crucial to their own sense happiness fails to materialize. Having been subject to the relationship bait and switch a few times myself, and it really sucks. If you aren’t willing to pay the price of admission for the show as advertised to begin with, don’t enter. Sorry SBOOO – I suspect there will be no refunds for you, nor do you deserve one. Best thing to do is kindly and gently leave.

44. I think you guys are being a little too hard on SBOOO [not you Dan].. she THOUGHT she would be up for it and after a lot of trying, she wasn’t. I don’t think this means that she deceived him or lied in any way because she didn’t even know herself that she wasn’t going to enjoy it.

45. As long as her husband loves her, comes home to her, is careful with other people, and restricts meetings with other people to a reasonable number of instances per month, what is SBOOO’s problem? What is with the obsessive/jealous/ownership tendency of most women towards their men? My husband and I are apart from each other months each year, and I don’t care what he does with others during that time, as long as it’s clean and safe.

46. I feel sorry for SBOOO. I mean, she went to the counselor, she’s trying to make it work… it’s not like she expects you to agree with her. You were way too hard on her. She may have been a little naive, but her intentions were (still are) good and that shouldn’t be punished.

47. There is little doubt that SBOOO has no one but herself to blame. That being said, as a previous commenter stated, many people don’t know themselves sexually. I think this is especially true for women. Whether that is the case or not here is unclear. Still, you should keep that in mind Dan.

48. Wow, amazing how what one learns and how it applies to so many different things. I now realize that I, SBOOO’s husband and many posters on this discussion thread (including perhaps Danno Savage, but he at least has stated the sound reasons for his position and he has his schtick to uphold). I learned tonight that I am lacking in tact! I’m tactless. I look at my earlier comments and I see how I’m tactless. It’s remarkable. I see that many of us posters here are tactless.

    Fascinating the things you can learn from your experiences.

    SBOOO’s still a moron (a nice tactless comment for those who don’t get it), but there’s more than one way to say it. My way (both in this thread and above) is perhaps not the best way to do it, but SBOOO (and her husband too) is still a moron all the same.

    Tactless… Wow, what a concept! 🙂

49. I agree with your smackdown of SBOOO, but wish you had pointed out to readers that part of being a good non-monogamist partner is making sure that your primary partner isn’t always on the short end of the stick. Why should his sex life be on an outward (linear) trajectory? He should be able to have his cake, and sometimes stay home and eat her, too… and going out the same night she agreed he could swing alone was pretty damn cold.

50. Everybody had a wet dream,
    everybody saw the sun shine.

    A really healthy man who has 20 orgasms – not a candidate for cancer

    A really healthy man who has no sexual fetishes or addictions – also healthy.

    Some guy who has to try to reach orgasm because of sexual fetishes and addictions does it way too much for his age – after a few years he is not going to be a healthy guy

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