My 13-year-old son came out to us this morning. He plans to tell his brothers in the next few days. We love and accept our son, and this news isn’t surprising (but when will the stereotypical neatness kick in?), but we do have some concerns. He has, apparently, already made the news public at school. Any pointers you can give? We want to make sure he knows that we love him and don’t care about his sexuality, while at the same time preparing him to deal with those people who do. Also, any advice you can give for when he starts dating would be appreciated.
Dad Seeks Support
“On behalf of advocates for lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender youth everywhere, let me be the first to say ‘thank you,'” says Eliza Byard, executive director of GLSEN (www.glsen.org), the Gay, Lesbian & Straight Education Network, which works to create safe school environments for LGBT—and straight—youth. “Simply by giving your son your love and support, you have already significantly increased his chances of living a happy and fulfilling life. The importance of an accepting home cannot be overstated.” (The damage that can be done by a hostile family also cannot be overstated: LGBT youth whose families are hostile are eight times likelier to commit suicide than their straight peers. Hostile parents can’t make their gay kids straight, but they can make them dead.)
“The bad news is that school can be a miserable place for LGBT youth,” says Byard. “GLSEN’s 2009 National School Climate Survey found that nearly 9 out of 10 LGBT teens experienced harassment in school in the past year. The good news is that engaged parents can make a huge difference.”
So, DSS, while it’s admirable that you want your son to understand that you “don’t care about his sexuality,” you also have to make your son understand that you care about him and that you’re aware of the challenges he faces.
“Talk to your son and learn more about his school and his experiences there since coming out,” advises Byard. “What kind of response has he received? What supports are in place for him at school? Does the school have a Gay-Straight Alliance? Do students have access to LGBT-affirming resources in the library? Does the school have policies that address bullying? Are there adults in the school community whom he trusts and feels are supportive?”
Call your son’s school, DSS, and set up a meeting. Making sure his teachers and school administrators know that you’re on your son’s side—and they know you intend to hold them accountable—can go a long way toward creating a safe environment for your son at school.
“Send a GLSEN Safe Space Kit (www.safespacekit.com) to your son’s school to give educators the tools they need to provide support and create a safe space in their classroom for your son,” advises Byard. “Visible signs of support, such as a GLSEN Safe Space sticker on a door, can fundamentally alter the school experience of an LGBT youth by helping them identify those adults in the community who are supportive.”
As for dating and sex…
“Treat your son with the same awkwardness you would your other kids,” says Byard. “I’m speaking as a mom myself now. Make sure he has access to all the health and safety information he needs. (Sitting down to watch reruns of Will & Grace together won’t cut it.) I have two daughters and want to be absolutely sure they have access to all the information they need to make smart and healthy—and potentially life-saving!—decisions. Make yourself available to talk whenever he needs and welcome his boyfriends inside the house the same way you would if they were girlfriends.”
I’m into BDSM and my safe word is “safe word.” It’s short, memorable, and unmistakable in its intent. Someone recently told me that “any serious BDSM player” would laugh me out of the community if I used that. Is she right? Is she just being a dickhead? Should I have to say something silly like “grapefruit” in order to get my point across?
Grapefruits Aren’t Good
I may not be the best person to adjudicate this dispute, GAG, as my safe word is “popcorn.” (And, yes, I cross my arms over my chest when I use it, as demonstrated here: tinyurl.com/safewordpopcorn.) But in my opinion, the woman who informed you that you would be laughed out of “the community” for your choice of safe word is being a huge dickhead. In fact, it sounds like she has a bad case of You’re Doing It Wrong.
YDIW is a social-skills disorder that members of the BDSM community are at particular risk of acquiring. (Others at heightened risk: religious conservatives, sports fans, advice columnists.) BDSMers with YDIW feel they have a right to inform other BDSMers that they’re doing it wrong—whatever it might be—even if the “it” being done wrong poses no risk to the YDIW sufferer or anyone else.
BDSM players should speak up, of course, when they witness other BDSMers doing something dangerously wrong. BDSMers who observe dangerous or nonconsensual play at public parties have a responsibility to speak the fuck up before someone is seriously injured. The secondary, tertiary, and quaternary goals of creating a BDSM community were the sharing of skills, the promotion of good play practices, and the holding of dangerous or malicious players to account, respectively. (The primary goal? Getting BDSMers laid.) But some BDSMers confuse a responsibility to speak up when they witness dangerous play for an invitation to critique other people’s kinks, sexual interests, preferred fetish roles, safe words, etc.
YDIW in BDSMers—and social conservatives—can be treated and cured through the application of “NO ONE GIVES A FUCK WHAT YOU THINK, ASSHOLE.” It should be applied liberally whenever YDIW flares up.
I enjoyed your pieces and posts about monogamish couples. However, it’s time for a Savage Love column or two dedicated to people who are in successful monogamous relationships! I have been with my partner for 10 years. Sure, we’ll both flirt with a cute waiter and dance with hot guys at gay clubs, but we always go home together. It pisses me off when people assume that, because we are gay, we’re having sex with every Tom, Dick, and Harry.
Couple Of Compatible Keepers
That’s a wonderful idea, COCK.
People in successful, long-term monogamous relationships—even those of you who aren’t but think you are—are invited to send in their stories. Letters from monogamous sufferers of YDIW will not make it into the column, however. If you can’t write about your monogamous relationship without disparaging those in nonmonogamous or monogamish relationships then, um, you’re doing it wrong. (I told you advice columnists were at heightened risk of YDIW.) Tell us why monogamy works for you, how you’ve made it work, and what the upsides are. But please refrain from telling everyone who isn’t doing it the way you do it that they’re doing it wrong. That’s my job.
CONFIDENTIAL TO CANADA’S UNKNOWN LAWYER: Next time there’s a legal hiccup in the fair application of Canada’s marriage laws where same-sex couple are concerned, let’s err on the side of not declaring thousands of same-sex marriages—mine included—to be “invalid,” shall we? Let’s skip the shitstorm next time and jump right to the fair and just resolution.
Find the Savage Lovecast (my weekly podcast) every Tuesday at thestranger.com/savage.
@fakedansavage on Twitter
@150
You said unliscenced teenager. Telling.
Again, teenagers can be trusted with responsibilities if they are properly prepared. That’s what I was getting at. Are they at higher risk? Yes. But that doesn’t mean we don’t let people drive until they’re 25 years old.
If someone has pinned you down and is trying to force you to have sex with them, it is not “rude” to say “get off me!”. If someone rapes you, it is not “rude” to call the cops.
Believe it or not I am a woman, and I have been in these situations and I didn’t “de-escalate” them by allowing these people to have psuedo-consensual sex with me.
If someone crawls into my window, you can bet I’ll de-escalate. But again, that’s not the same context as a friend or coworker who will later be held accountable to mutual aquaintences and the police. I’d wager that they’re unlikely to kill me because I “escalated”.
That is, after all, why women are (explicitly) taught not to escalate – to avoid homocide or severe injury. The reason they’re implicitly taught is to be “good girls”. I was never a “good girl”.
@EricaP, who wrote:
Indeed, the point is that there are many pretty decent, honest men who aren’t trying to be jerks; they really were taught the lesson (from culture or from experience with women — which may be the same thing) that women won’t stand up for what they want, so they have to ‘guess’ when they have to pressure, to ‘take the lead’, to ‘be manly’.
I don’t think it’s only men’s responsibility to change these expectations — I think it’s everybody’s, i.e., women’s as well. Women should become more outspoken about what they like and don’t like, what they wan’t and don’t want — there’s no need to wait for the guy to ask for it, you can say it (in a friendly way) right from the beginning. And I also agree that guys should stop and ask more, cooperate more, pressure less and go easy on that ‘manly behavior.’
Both behaviors reinforce each other (as cultural features often do). Stopping one without stopping the other is usually not going to work well.
@155
In addition, there are men who are comfortable with
a. pressuring a woman, making her clearly uncomfortable, having her say no (“politely”) until she gives up and stops resisting, making sex ostenisbly consensual
but not
b. violently forcing that same woman if she chooses to be “rude”, or killing her because she “escalated”, because then it’s “rape” (and also, well, murder). This comes with the possibility of guilt, a marred reputation, and jail time. Not worth it when there’s plenty of other women who will give in like “nice” girls do. On to the next one.
This is, in my opinion, the greatest problem resulting from the social setup we’re talking about here.
Because there are many men who will do a. with no remorse but stay the hell away from b., I don’t agree with Erica’s implicit suggestion that women should carry on with business as usual and wait for men to become more knightly.
I’m not saying women should carry on with business as usual.
Not. At. All.
I’m doing what I want women to do, which is TALK about how they don’t like some kinds of sex, and despise the guys who pushed them into it. Now that men & women can talk in public about sex, I want women to say what they like, and what they don’t like, here on Slog as well as during private sexual play. And I want men to hear them, and talk back about what men like, and what confuses them. And I want women who say “but I like being pushed around, and I respond to that,” I want them to hear that they are hurting other women with their choices.
@137 nocutename: Oh my God! I am so sorry to read about what happened to your 16 year old daughter, and the trauma you have all experienced!
Was the perpetrator ever apprehended and held accountable for his shameful brutality? I know it’s a horrible situation to have to report to the police.
You and your family are all in my deepest thoughts and prayers.
@158, see 145. So awful.
@157
It seemed to me that you were suggesting that the current state of things (for most women) where they politely say “no” and if the man continues to push they shrug their shoulders and allow it to happen, does not need to change. (At least women’s behaviour in those situations does not need to change)
That being “rude” (as I have been) is dangerous and to be avoided.
You think the way women talk about it afterwards should be changed, but you think that “Women are taught to de-escalate dangerous situations, which often means tolerating unwanted sex.” and that there’s nothing that should be changed about that on the woman’s end.
Women aren’t just taught to de-escalate dangerous situations (see above for why your boyfriend raping you and someone on the street raping you are different contexts), they’re taught to de-escalate all conflict. To their detriment.
ankylosaur@152, “I think we owe it to the real rape victims to find out when it’s a lie.” Unless we implant cameras in everyone, we will never have that knowledge.
So you push for the change you want to see, and I’ll push for the change I want to see. My own energies will go less to challenging women’s stories and more towards convincing men to disdain passive partners and look for enthusiastic partners (male or female) instead.
@160 Apparently I’ve been unclear. I do not think women should be polite. I think we should be assertive and clear. In all aspects of our lives.
I work for that goal with my daughter, and with other young women I know.
Is that more clear?
Yup. You can see why I might have been confused by some of your statements though, yes?
Yes.
Rad.
P.S. your daughter may thank you later for encouraging her assertiveness. I learned mine from my mom and it serves me well.
EricaP: I agree with everything you’ve been saying and I’ve understood it all, too.
@158 (Auntie Griz):
It wasn’t the slightest bit shameful for my daughter to report it to the police, who have said that she is the most composed and coherent and amazing survivor/witness they’ve worked with.
Also, she bit the shit out of his hand when it was over her mouth, and hopefully gave him a hell of an infection. This was one of the things that the police were able to use to help rule out certain suspects, as well.
And she used her head: when the rapist had finished assaulting her, he kissed her, told her he “loved” her, and again threatened to kill her. She replied that she loved him, too, and she would never, ever tell anyone. Then he left and she came into my room, woke me up with the phone in her hand, and told me to call the police.
I am indescribably proud of her.
@137 nocutename,
My girlfriend who was my first sexual partner told me about her rape, when she was 12, about 2 years after we started going out. I will never, ever, forget the scene in complete detail; in particular I felt so helpless without knowing what to do. I was 19 at the time, and yet despite my cluelessness, I was able to be the person she needed because my love and support never changed.
I can only suggest that as best you can, try to not let this incident control your lives. Get as much help as you can, but live on.
Peace.
Ye gods. Bit late, because my internet was down, but can I just chime in that I am utterly opposed to the shit that ironvic just tried to pull in reply to me?
Ironvic, bullying is bad. What Dan is doing isn’t bullying. It’s beating a known bully at his own game. And doing it with humour.
Eesh.
@159 EricaP re nocutename’s post @145: Oh, wow. That really is horrible.
@167 nocutename: I think you may have misunderstood my comments. I didn’t mean that you and your daughter acted shamefully—HER ATTACKER who broke into your home did!
I would be indescribably proud of your daughter, too, if she were mine.
I’m glad that the police were responsive, supportive, and impressed with her remaining calm in such a horribly traumatic, life threatening situation.
I hope that authorities catch and incarcerate that monster so that you never have the nightmare of facing him again.
Peace be with you.
@167: Further clarification: I’m proud of you and your daughter keeping your heads through such an awful experience–period, regardless of whose daughter she is.
@167, part III: Additionally, I hope that shithead’s dick falls off and everyone calls him “Stubby”.
@EricaP, who wrote:
That is a very good use of energy — especially since, in our society, men who do that (i.e., stop pushing when their prospective partner is passive and look for an enthusiastic one) are often still considered ‘not mainly enough’, including by the very passive partners they thought they were respecting by not pushing further.
You see, that’s the point: often otherwise good men will push beyond polite levels (see mydriasis above) not because they have a sense of self-entitlement and think sex is always theirs for the taking, but because they’ve had the experience of being mocked — sometimes by the very woman who they were respecting — for being ‘too respectful.’
By all means go on convincing men to disdain passive partners. But, please, do convince women not to disdain men who disdain passive partners. They are part of the reason why pushy men are pushy.
EricaP(@161), who wrote (quoting me):
True, but this cuts both ways. If we don’t have implanted cameras we also don’t know if the rape claims we hear are true.
Part of preventing a crime is finding out when it happened and when it didn’t. There’s theft and false theft, there’s fraud and false fraud, assault and false assault, murder and false murder, and so on. Surely you don’t think that our concern for the first element in each pair means we shouldn’t pay sufficient attention to the second element?
I’m not saying we shouldn’t listen to women’s narratives. I’m just saying women are people, too.
@167(nocutename), I would also be proud of her if I were her mother. That was indeed very intelligent, and very courageous, behavior.
Let me add my hopes to yours that this bastard will be caught and punished as he so richly deserves.
People in successful, long-term monogamous relationships—even those of you who aren’t but think you are
Was there really any need for that little dig? In a paragraph about how you shouldn’t run down people with different -gamy choices from your own, written in response to a letter that was perfectly polite and non-YDIW-ish, it seems pretty uncalled-for.
This story hit me like a bolt. I came out at the age of 12 and my families reaction was a tragic experience I carry with me to this day. I was locked up in a mental hospital during my time there my roomate hung himself in our room and I saw staff members having sex with patients. It was alot to handle for someone who had been sheltered most of there life. If that was not bad enough I was released a year later and I found out that my mom had signed me over to the state and I was told I was not going home. It has been over 20 years and I still live with those feelings of abandoment and fear. I have dealt with my own issues with substance abuse and childhood sex abuse of myself and my sister at the hand of my stepfather. To have to live with the memories and feelings of my past is so bad at times I just want to yell and hit something. I have found my own outlet with my writing and it’s very theraputic for me. Any child that can come out with support of family,friends,public will only benefit and prosper in there own relationships and eventually raising a family of there own.
@173
I’ve never mocked a guy for taking no for an answer, nor have I ever heard of this happening. I’m sure you have some reason to believe this happens, but I’ve never seen it.
Fact is, from where I’m sitting, the men who stop pushing when they first are told to stop just have less sex. I assume it just got filed under “nice guys finish last”. I don’t know… I honestly have a hard time understanding women, for the most part.
@178 Thomas,
I am very sorry for your loss, both of your innocence and your family. I hope you find the happiness you deserve.
Peace.
@179 mydriasis,
“I assume it just got filed under ‘nice guys finish last’.”
I can say there has never been a hit on my conscience for not continuing after the first “no/stop”. However for me sex has always been as much (or more) an issue of me trusting my partner as my partner trusting me.
I argue that defining a collaboration as a competition seems a little weird.
Peace.
@174, anklosaur, at some point your obsession with fairness seems ridiculous to me. I’m not, personally, using my energy to effect more rape prosecutions — I’m using it to try to change the culture so that men expect happy participation from their partners (male or female) and don’t put up with passive unhappiness.
The men in my ideal world could still be initiators and aggressors, and most women would be happily responsive to that, sexually. But when men run into someone who withdraws into herself, or lies there unresponsive, or says, no, please, stop — they’d pause to figure out if she was done for the evening or had some other activity in mind.
You’re suggesting that women disdain men who are aggressive (not namby-pamby) but who do stop when faced with a passive, passed-out, or otherwise unresponsive or miserable partner.
Respectfully, ankylosaur, I think that’s a ridiculous claim.
It’s like saying that every bout of male roughhousing has to lead to a full-fledged fist fight or else the men lose face. Maybe in some rare parts of the culture, but mostly, men have ways to back off from escalation with their friends and acquaintances.
As mydriasis says, those men who don’t push beyond their partner’s resistance might miss out on some intercourse, but I can’t see how they’d earn anyone’s scorn. (Except that of other men for not being ‘rapey’ enough, possibly.)
148– I’m stunned that you’re not more sympathetic to the men who do their best, have sex with a willing participant, and get accused of rape later after an argument. I’m further stunned that you know so much of the details of an events you weren’t present for and haven’t heard both sides of. Granted I wasn’t present, but I did know both participants and did act as confidant for both. I’m not filling in details. It’s not my place to spill secrets even anonymously and even after many years. Let’s just say that I was as sympathetic and supportive as I could be, that I did acknowledge grey area between go to the police and a relationship that didn’t work out and that the preponderance of the evidence was on the didn’t work out side.
@181 the “nice guys finish last” competition is with other men: the idea is there may be men who get more sex by being aggressive, and men who get less sex by not pushing so hard. The latter are “finishing last” in the competition to get more sex.
@183 – So, what’s his side of things? How much was she participating in the sex? Would you say he was doing his best to ensure that he had not just a willing participant, but a happy, active partner? Does she agree with his description of how much she participated?
Also, we don’t usually use the phrase “accused of rape” when the alleged victim didn’t tell authorities, just a friend. Maybe you object to the colloquial (as opposed to legal) use of the word ‘rape’ (as when I said that I raped myself @148)?
@183 never mind, I see you don’t want to fill in details. All right. So assuming she had a fantastic sexual experience that night, and is just spitefully lying about what happened — then I guess you advised her to avoid the word rape and get some counseling for her anger? I don’t think women are always reliable narrators and of course I don’t know what happened with your friends; I just think there’s a lot of bad sex in the world that could be improved upon if women took a more active role and men didn’t continue without an active, happy partner.
The only BAD safewords are those open to easy misinterpretation- Ow, No, Yes, Harder, and random expletives are some examples of safewords that ARE bad ideas.
A good safeword is one that is clear, at least two syllables and out of context(not a word likely to be spoken spontaneously)- Popcorn is excellent, BTW, for exactly those reasons and so is Safe Word- especially at a party when one may be playing with new and unfamiliar partners- in such a context, a generic signal is good for the same reasons traffic signs are given consistant shapes and colours. Everyone understands them (or should).
A safeword is not a substitute for good negotiation prior to play, careful attention and communication during a scene and honest review after but a clear, concise signal is an important safety tool and I would never consent to play with someone who wanted to dispense with that detail.
@184 Erica,
You are correct. My point about the collaboration part is between the male and female having sex. The weird thing is that the male going with the request/statement of his partner will, in theory decrease his chances of having sex over the partner that ignores the woman’s request/statement.
I think this is one of those edge case scenarios that just make life frustrating. The difference between “assertive” and “aggressive” lies in interpretation more often than not.
And to throw out another edge case: There is also the nice guy who never finishes last because he’s already won a race. Some nice guys always have sex because they were already pulled off the market by their partners.
I agree with your goal of self advocacy; sex without coordination is sub-optimal at best. More importantly, to assert that women can’t be proactive, or a submissive male can’t be good in bed, seems needlessly limiting.
Peace.
@184 Erica,
Or, to put it another way: Why is it that being pussy whipped is viewed as a bad thing?
Peace.
Dan,
Wow. Your advice to COCK was defensive, condescending, and missed his point completely. Way to bring your own issues into the topic. I recall you recently posted a response from a “monogamous” couple, which was actually just a guy who had cheated on his wife without her knowledge, his self-serving definition of “making it work.” One doesn’t need to be a judgmental prick to know that is just plain ol’ adultery.
I want to believe differently about you, so in the future perhaps you might try not jumping the gun and shoving your version of morality upon your readers. Otherwise, you cast a big shadow and news flash we all see it.
Signed,
Disappointed
13 is not too young an age to realize that you enjoy other males. To the contrary it’s roughly right on the mark, but even if the boy DOES turn out later to be (insert any orientation you can think of here) instead of gay, he has an incredible, wonderful gift. There is nothing on Earth better for LGBT kids than a loving, supporting, understanding family. If he does turn out to be gay, which he very well might (My own personal fantasies of other males started rather spontaneously at age 11. Turns out they were right, I’m gay), he’s already off to a wonderful start, at least as far as his family is concerned.
I AM rather worried about him already coming out to his school, that part could be a major concern. He’s probably still in middle school if he’s only 13, and middle school can be easily summed up with a simple reading of Lord of the Flies, so it would be a concern. However, reading this first letter from the dad no less was the highlight of my day. Thank you a thousand times over, DSS. You’re a wonderful parent and a wonderful human being!
@189, depends who you ask. Some men like being whipped, some men would like being “pussy-whipped.” Other men don’t like the idea of women telling them what to do.
Most people are in the middle: they like input, but not when that takes the form of criticism. And our culture complicates things even further with sex, because men aren’t supposed to need direction to do “what comes naturally”, but sometimes things go terribly wrong if men proceed without active encouragement from their partner.
186 Why would you assume she had a fantastic sexual experience and is spitefully lying? Are we out of grey area? There’s no room for genuine confusion mixed with bitter disappointment plus a hurt desire to lash out while not thinking clearly which translates to an insecurity that includes not being able to hear another point of view? If you’re confused now, rest assured that I was then.
It was rape when there was a need for sympathy. It was not rape when there was a need for legal definitions and police reports. It was rape when that term would help her recovery. It was not rape when it came to just getting up and leaving. It was rape when it came to joining hands with a sisterhood of feminists. It was not rape when a feminist would have told her to stop depending on a man to play knight in shining armor to rescue her from big bad world.
That’s only one of the times I’ve heard the word “rape” used in such an ambiguous way. In my circles, the word gets thrown around a lot.
!93 I was giving him the benefit of the doubt, since you said he did his best. I’m happy to agree that this was a bad situation.
I’m not as upset by people using the word ‘rape’ colloquially, assuming they don’t press charges or post it on facebook. If she wants to use it as shorthand for “screwed me over badly,” and if it’s clear that she’s giving her personal perspective, not a legal verdict, I might not argue with the term. Though I might suggest other ways of reframing, if she seemed able to listen. You say that she wasn’t able to listen… That must have been difficult for you. Sometimes friends can’t really help, especially since you were friends with both sides.
@184 Thank you for the clarification. That is what I meant.
@189
Because it’s a turnoff for women who (to use an archaic expression rather than a lengthy PC essay) “like their men to be men”.
@194
“I’m not as upset by people using the word ‘rape’ colloquially, assuming they don’t press charges or post it on facebook.”
Do you think it might if you were a victim of a real rape?
@192 Erica,
Somehow, being told to show up at a particular time and place so that we could have sex never seemed to be that much of a hardship. Eh, lots of sex; how unmanly…
Peace.
Being told to do anything is pretty unmanly, yes.
Hey but that’s me. I like my gender roles like others like their wine/fashion/record collection – vintage.
@195 mydriasis,
As long as you are getting what you want, when you want it, labels mean nothing. I just take exception that a man saying yes to a woman that wants to date/have sex is any less masculine, or that a woman that is sexually assertive is any less feminine.
Peace.
EricaP
I think your point is that sex is better when the woman is fully involved. Most young men don’t know this. Even some more experienced men don’t get it. Once men learn this they can have gourmet sex rather than fast food sex, they will frequently go for it. But sometimes both parties don’t have the time or are too tired, so fast food sex will be enough to satisfy them both.
@200 Quickies are great, but even then, you should expect to see some joy on the face of your partner.
If he or she doesn’t like the sex, then break up with each other, or get to counseling to try to figure out why. But don’t just keep on having sex with an unhappy partner.
I know, this goes counter to all of Dan’s advice about how GGG people will have sex when their partner wants it, even if they’re not feeling it. But where does one draw the line? Personally, I’d much rather masturbate than inflict sex on a partner who I know is unhappy.
@196 I am the victim of real date rape, held down while I was saying no the whole time. My friend thought I didn’t mean it, because my no’s were not aggressive. It’s true I haven’t been the victim of stranger rape. Maybe that would change how I feel. Are you saying that you feel the word rape should be reserved for only events that fit the legal definition? That is, talking about “rape of the environment” trivializes a serious crime?
@199
A lot of people do.
But perceptions exist.
If you’re willing to read, this is my personal opinion on how women perceive masculinity. If not, skip down to the end.
There are lots of qualities, physical, behavioural, etc that get filed as “masculine” and ‘feminine”. Whether or not it’s even valid to ascribe a quality as M/F is contentious but whether or not it’s valid, it happens. Any man that had all of the masculine qualities in spades would essentially be a gorilla. So women sort these qualities. Some qualities are deeply tied to their concept of masculinity. Without these qualities, they see the man in question as too feminine, not manly enough, however you want to look at it.
Other qualities might be seen in an non-essential positive light, or negatively as the case may be.
Here’s an example. A good friend of mine when I was younger liked men who were ‘sensitive’ (a “female” quality) but didn’t like men who were too pretty/groomed, or too hairless. So for her, a man who cries during a movie (isn’t “stoic”, is lacking in a masculine quality) is still plenty manly as long as he can grow some chest hair.
I’m more the opposite. I like pretty guys. The kind of guys manly men scoff at. I think it’s adorable when a guy can’t grow a beard to save his life. I like men that are good with kids and nurturing. I also don’t like super muscular types, etc etc etc.
But if he cries during movies? Ew, no. If were to let me treat him like a lap dog? Ew! If he doesn’t initiate sex enough and/or isn’t agressive enough in bed? DTMFA. Doesn’t take the metaphorical driver’s seat by default? Lame! Etc, etc etc. It’s all about what people put their emphasis on.
TL;DR
Masculinity is all about personal opinion. If it bothers you that some women find your behaviour unmanly then don’t listen to them/me.
And for the record, I don’t know enough about your behaviour to know whether I would catagorize it as such but the manner in which you defended it suggests that I would. No big deal.
Well, dye my eyes and call me pretty.
I’m so sorry for the horrors experienced by Ms Cute and the unregistered Thomas.
Separatism is looking like the only answer again.