I’m a 67-year-old woman,
almost 68, who has been married four times—once widowed (with
three kids in their 40s who’ve turned out pretty well), divorced three
times. I recently met someone online: 48, a wealthy, educated man with
two boys, 12 and 14. He lives the cuckoldt lifestyle and is looking for
a woman to marry who would participate and enjoy this with him. He says
he “craves and needs” this lifestyle, and from what he’s said so far,
the boys have been trained from an early age to also live this
lifestyle and would require that the woman he marries include them in
all ways.
I’ve done some research and think I could be
quite happy being a dominant. However, my concern is that he wants me
to be sexual with the boys. He says that at home they practice familial
nudity. He also wants me to take each one to a hotel on their
respective birthdays (he doesn’t say at what age) and take their
virginities. He has also suggested that, once we are living together,
if I wake up horny I should go to one of the boys’ rooms and “grind my
cunt into his face and fuck the boy.” I think this is excessive and
could traumatize the boys. I don’t know if this type of extreme
behavior is just fantasy for him or if he is serious.
If I like this man after meeting him, I
would consider this lifestyle, but with boundaries where the boys are
concerned. As the dominant, what I say goes, no questions asked (he has
agreed to this in a recent IM), but I think we need to find a
balance.
I’m interested in your thoughts on all of
this. Thank you.
New To Cuckholdting
What do I think? I’m thinking—and
hoping and praying—that this letter is complete bullshit. And I
think I’m gonna go boil my laptop after writing this response. And I
think I’m tempted to forward your e-mail on to the police. And I think
I would do just that if I wasn’t convinced that this man with whom
you’ve been corresponding—assuming you exist,
NTC—is just another creepy pervert furiously beating off in front
of a computer as he spins out his insanely creepy sexual fantasies for
a gullible online audience of one.
But two details lead me to believe that
there could actually be a four-times-married, thrice-divorced,
once-widowed moral bankrupt out there receiving e-mails and IMs from a
man who claims to be into “the cuckoldt lifestyle,” “familial nudity,”
and the sexual abuse of his adolescent children: your age and your
inability to spell “cuckold.” If a creep with child-rape fantasies
wrote this letter, NTC, you wouldn’t be 67 going on 68 with
reservations. You would be 37 at the most with DD breasts, and you
would’ve spelled cuckold correctly. (Unless… sigh… the
creep was into intergenerational sex and lousy spellers on top
of everything else.)
Now: If this man and his children exist,
NTC, he’s abusing his children and they should be removed from his home
immediately. He’s scum, NTC, as is any woman who would for a moment
contemplate shacking up with this piece of shit. Because, again, what
your Interwebs friend describes is not the “cuckoldt lifestyle,” it’s
the rape and systematic sexual abuse of children. A man who is into
cuckolding gets off on his wife having consensual sex with
other adult men, not his children; a woman into cuckolding
gets off on “cheating” on her husband with other adult men, not her
minor stepchildren.
Once again for the record: I don’t think
this guy is for real or that these kids exist. I think some creepy
pervert is sitting in front of a computer furiously rubbing ’em out as
he chats with you. Interacting with someone on the web who believes
that he’s telling the truth—someone who believes that he’s
wealthy, educated, and has two boys at home anxious to be sexually
abused by a woman old enough to be their grandmother—turns him
on. And so he lurks online until he lands someone gullible and morally
bereft enough to buy in.
Okay! Let’s end with a note about standards
and practices here at Savage Love: I typically change identifying
details in a letter—exact ages, number of divorces, number of
children—lest someone inadvertently out themselves to their
family and friends. I didn’t do that in NTC’s case, because I’m praying
to God that—if NTC exists—one of her children sees
this letter and recognizes dear ol’ Mom. And if her kids are reading:
Hey, guys, it’s time to take Mom’s cars keys, credit cards, and
computer away. Dementia has set in, or Mom’s been demented all along.
Either way, she’s a danger to herself and others, and you might want to
stage an intervention before the criminal-
justice system does.
I am in desperate need. I have been
dating a guy for two years. We’re both 25, and we love each other a
lot. He’s sexy as hell (half Asian, quarter Native, quarter
black—he’s divine), we connect, he’s funny, upbeat, and honest.
Unfortunately, we have a recurring fight (once or twice a month), and I
wonder if we will ever resolve this issue. He likes the attention of
other women. The fight goes like this: He will do something borderline
inappropriate with some chick right in front of me (most recently, he
had 30 consecutive drunk-posts on Facebook with some 19-year-old he met
through his roommate), and I will get pissed and hurt. I approach him
calmly and say that it feels disrespectful and I hope that one day we
will come to an agreement on this issue. He swears that it is all in my
head and that I work myself up over nothing. But he KNOWS it hurts my
feelings, and my hurt is made worse because he is disregarding my
feelings. He usually gets mad, says he “didn’t do anything wrong” and
he “can’t talk to me anymore,” and then I won’t hear from him for a day
or so.
I have friends telling me that this is a
deal breaker and that I am being emotionally abused. I don’t know if I
believe that—I think he just needs to work on boundaries. I just
had a “come to Jesus” talk with the boy, and he still feels like he
didn’t cross any lines and refuses to apologize. But to make me feel
guilty, he said he will “never post anything on another girl’s Facebook
page ever again.” That’s not what I wanted. Now my face hurts from
crying, and I want someone sane to tell me which way is up. Whose side
are you on? I would actually be happier if you told me that I was crazy
and controlling, because altering my own attitude is a lot easier than
trying to get through to him.
Pleeeeeease help.
Hurting In Oregon
Ah… a nice, normal problem to cleanse the
palate after the shit sandwich that opens the column this week.
I’m not on anyone’s side in this dispute,
HIO. You sound like an insecure, passive-aggressive guilt tripper, and
the boyfriend sounds like an inconsiderate flirt. You’ve been having
the same fight twice a month for two years. Enough already. If
the sex, the connection, and his race-based divinity don’t compensate
for the flirting, end this relationship. If they do, HIO, stay with
him—but only if you can stop policing his interactions with other
women and stop bitching about the flirting to him, to your friends, and
to me. 
That second one has nothing to do with sex at all! It always makes me a little sad when it’s just relationship advice and not sex advice at all. And just two letters this week?
Brilliant! As per usual.
awesome
@2 – there’s another that he just posted on his blog. Pretty good one, too.
Meh. Rude and dismissive.
@MARCH
Is this your first visit here? Those of us who are long time readers love Savage Love because it is curt and honest. Go read Ann Landers!
The letter from the 67 yr old is a croc – somewhere is a 22 yr old laughing his or her ass off. And I think Dan’s response disrespected the elderly here a bit, the character in this fiction is only 67, hardly reaching the age to be senile, esp in today’s world, and if she reads your column, she would must be a pretty hip grandma and given her 4 marriages, probably has a lot more relationship and sex wisdom than most, so she’d be able to call BS on her own.
Dan: It must be hard to separate the bullshit letters from the real ones all the time. I’m with you on the first letter, either this lady is so desperate she’s willing to believe just ’bout anything. Or the whole piece is a lie… either way… great answer! I just hope her children are reading it and are ready to pull the plug on Mom’s behavior.
I think the first one is bullshit too but I would still forward it to the police.
Can I unread the first one. Please don’t let it be real. Child rape is not a joke.
If HIO is crying so hard her face hurts after at least twice a month and he feels justified making ridiculous blanket statements about “never posting on another girl’s Facebook page again” then it seems a pretty clear case of DTMFA.
@bagel: don’t be ridiculous, senility can hit at younger ages, too. ever heard of early-onset alzheimer’s? dan had a responsibility to take the letter from every possible angle, and he did so well. i dont think his response disrespected “the elderly” at all — it rightfull disrespected someone not worthy of respect – whomever participated in the letter and/or its alleged events.
#8 Bagel, I hope the entire letter is a hoax, but I want to tell you that dementia (of whatever variety) can and does occur in people in their 50s and 60s. Yes, it’s rarer then than later, but it does happen. It’s sometimes very hard for the children (or whoever) to know when to intervene, but perhaps better too early than too late.
Passive-aggressive means being unable to say what you want directly. HIO is being straight up honest with her boyfriend. There’s nothing passive about that. And he’s saying he won’t change for her.
I agree with the advice. Accept him or leave.
#8: 67 is not too young for senility. Alzheimers can strike people in their 40s, even.
Dan might not be a neurologist, but I don’t think he’s anti-elderly either.
Ummmm…I’m confused. You said:
“I don’t want you to post on girls’ facebooks!”
And he said:
“Fine! I’ll never post anything on another girl’s Facebook page ever again.”
And then you felt guilty because that’s not what you wanted? It sounds to me like that’s exactly what you wanted. If I were you, I would have responded with “Good! Finally you’re doing what I want! Thank you for finally giving in to my demands!”
HIO should send her boyfriend to Tool Academy, so the rest of us can mock her while we also get to ogle her boyfriend’s “Divinity.”
@15: She is a _bit_ passive-aggressive. Saying “I hope that one day we will come to an agreement on this issue,” when she really can’t tolerate his behavior and wants it to stop is not exactly straight-up honest. What she says to the boy implies that she might meet him halfway on this, but the gist of her letter is that she’ll either compromise entirely or (much more likely) leave him with her pride intact.
What’s with this weasle-ly, accept him OR leave? This is a clear case of DTMFA, although I’m not even sure she has a boyfriend to dump! They obviously have very different ideas about what sort of relationship they are in. If he believed he was in a committed relationship, he would at least flirt behind her back not right in front of her. She needs to move on.
as always great advice dan and i hope that the first one is a fake as well
Eh, HIO doesn’t sound like a saint, but I’m feeling a little more sympathy for her. The best I can say for the boyfriend, considering how she describes his “I do no wrong” attitude, is that they’re obviously no fucking good for each other. That said, she’s in some deep goddamn denial, at best, to be willing to rehash a weepy argument twenty-odd times and counting. DTMFA.
I kept waiting for the part in the first letter where she says: “OMG, Dan! I’m so scared for these boys. Do you think I should go to the police?” So scary. I hope it’s a hoax.
I agree with @10
HIO, my father is still doing that emotional abuse shit to my mother, exactly that way, they are in their 60s. I think he “quit facebook” 3 times this year to spite her. He always goes back, he’s done far worse, and you need to DTMFA *right now*. That stuff is all about control. He keeps you off-balance and withholds what you want if you complain, so he is always in charge.
#10, 11 & 24, tied for the win.
don’t know if we helped ne1 this week. #2 is beyond help and #1 holyfookinshit! Dad forcing his 12 year old son to bang a 70 year old lady. I’m sorry but that one is to strange not to be real.
If HIO is crying so hard her face hurts twice a month, she needs to DTMFA. It doesn’t matter whether either of them is being passive aggressive, or whether he’s deliberately being emotionally abusive (and for the record, telling your girlfriend that the behavior you’re practicing which makes her miserable and is dismissive of her stated feelings is not a problem and her problems with him are “all in [her] head” and then cutting off communication as a punishment qualifies as emotional abuse in my book). The bottom line is this relationship is making her unhappy far more often than it should. He’s hot, yeah; leave him and find some other divinity who won’t disregard your feelings.
About the second letter, how exactly is posting on Facebook being disrespectful to his girlfriend? I mean, if he’s openly propositioning this girl or saying his girl friend doesn’t matter, then sure, but if that were the case, HIO probably would have said he’s doing that, not just that he’s drunk posting on Facebook.
It sounds to me like she’s saying if he talks to another woman at all, HIO gets upset. Talk about controlling.
As for the first one, send it to the police, there is so much wrong with that.
Regarding letter 1: I don’t know how laws are in WA regarding being a witness to child sexual abuse, but you may be legally OBLIGATED to forward that letter to authorities, real or not. Anyway, it’s probably the right thing to do.
#2 HIO,
I’m kinda surprised Dan didn’t just answer with a DTMFA. The girl’s obviously not cool with her boyfriend’s flirting and even if she “thinks” she can get over it… she hasn’t been able to for two years. Seems cut and dry to me.
#1, ugh.
Sexual abuse of a child is always, always wrong & disgusting. I don’t see much humor in it, either since I was sexually abused as a child. The notion that a father wants his kids introduced to sex by a “mother figure” is beyond disturbing & granny needs her wrinkled old ass kicked for even entertaining an involvement with the douchebag. Just…gross.
HIO sounds like she may be insecure & possibly feels like the Mixed-Race Masterpiece may be out of her league or she doesn’t measure up somehow. Either way, flirting is nothing to get bent about. Unless he actually sticks his dick in other women in front of her, she should lighten up.
I’m with Urgutha Forka on this one – simple and not really worth the effort to respond. A palate cleanser for Dan, I guess.
I advocate that you forward the information on to the police. If there is even a sliver of a chance that this email is real than there is a very real chance that there are minors out there who are at risk of being sexually abused. If you cannot prove for certain that this is the case, please allow law enforcement or child welfare authorities to do so for you.
Once or twice a month for 24 months equals 24-48 different arguments about the SAME THING.
This sounds like one of those problems that won’t go away, mo matter how long the relationship lasts, and grows over time. For whatever reason, you two are just not compatible. Drop him.
I’m with Dan, though–if the sex and divinity are worth it, keep him and get over it. At least he does it in front of you and not sneakily. Maybe to be extra passive aggressive you should suggest that the next time he sees someone he thinks is hot y’all should have a threesome. eh? eh? Or you could actually want a threesome. Maybe that’d make everything a-ok.
I agree with 30. Chatting/doing wall posts on Facebook isn’t “right in front of” someone, unless you’re ignoring your partner to type on your computer whilst out on a date. And talking to someone while you’re drunk isn’t automatically hardcore flirting — having a few drinks can facilitate social interaction, even if you’re not out trying to get laid. Everyone should be allowed to make new opposite-sex friends, & keep up with existing opposite-sex friends, even while in a couple. Relationships would be hellish if you had to constantly monitor all interactions with every other person for possible traces of flirtiness, and if every online conversation was a TERRIBLE BETRAYAL.
The letter writer says altering her attitude would be easier than changing the dude’s behavior, so why not work on that? The fact that these interactions hurt her feelings don’t automatically mean they’re out of line. Some people’s jealousy sensors are set very high, & they can get their feelings hurt just by hearing about their partner’s exes or harmless celebrity crushes. That doesn’t mean those people are bad people, but they may need to work on reining in their jealousy. Boyfriend’s behavior may actually improve if he doesn’t feel so constrained/monitored.
I agree with Emily (the first poster). I feel sad when it gets all into relationships and no sex. Boo.
The first letter says nothing about child abuse. Where is everyone getting that idea? It says the woman is to introduce them to sex (that is, they haven’t been already) on their respective birthdays (that is, when they become of age).
The letter is talking about consensual introduction of sex. When I have kids, I’d like to find a way to consensually introduce them to sex as well, when they’re old enough.
Anyone here who thinks the first letter is scary or abusive is reading their own ideas into it. It doesn’t talk at all about non-consensual sex.
WHAT?! Dan, the first response, great.
The second response sucked. She isn’t passive aggressive. She’s told him for 2 YEARS his behavior bothers her, straight to his face, and he still does it. What she wants is respect for her feelings. It’s not like his behavior is ingrained, it’s just disrespectful to her. (imagine if she’d be saying she wanted him to stop sucking her toes for 2 years, and he wouldn’t do it.)
Going ONLINE to flirt with someone is fucked up! He’s seeking out people he doesn’t know to flirt with, and I see why that bothers her.
Since he refuses to acknowledge or respect her feelings in this area, I imagine he does it in other areas too. She needs to tell him she’s not comfortable with the ridiculous flirting, and if he doesn’t stop, she can either stop doing what he likes in bed (so he can plead with her 2x/month) and get a taste of his own medicine, or break up. I vote break up.
Peace.
You ask a guy to stop flirting with other girls and disrespecting you and he responds with fine, I’ll just stop having any girls who are friends! People with this negative IQ can’t be talked to. Just dump him and find someone you can have a real conversation with, with no strawman BS.
#1- Ugh. To echo a previous comment- wish I could unread that first one, whether it’s made up or not. Creepy, creepy, creepy. Might not be a fake, though, unfortunately. Been talking to a guy online who has made some colorful comments that had me wondering if I should be concerned. I’m not gullible or stupid, it’s just that it’s not clear if I should be concerned or not. He was borderline inappropriate and maybe he just has some unresolved issues. It’s not always easy to tell whether a person means any harm or not. If NTC is for real, at least she she found that there was a serious problem out sooner than later- Now she can dtmfa and call the cops asap.
#2- Not a strong enough letter to make up the difference for having to read the first one.
Look forward to reading Dan each week and this one was just foul. I usually enjoy it so much. Hoping that the podcast will be better.
“The first letter says nothing about child abuse. Where is everyone getting that idea? It says the woman is to introduce them to sex (that is, they haven’t been already) on their respective birthdays (that is, when they become of age).”
The LW herself points out that the guy never said at what age. For all you or anyone else knows, the birthday in question was their next one, making them 13 and 15. Not child abuse per se but underage. See “Polanski, Roman”.
Let’s say that the putative guy meant when each turned 18. Wouldn’t you want a little say in who you lost your virginity with, or would you be totally OK with your dad arranging it with your stepmother 50+ years your senior?
Thought so.
Whoever is at fault, (and I say both,) HIO’s guy isn’t going to change. If he were interested in respecting her feelings they wouldn’t be having this conversation AGAIN.
I wouldn’t call her passive aggressive; she’s not being passive at all. But she might be a nag.
The first letter? I’m going to go wash my eyeballs now.
@#40, did you miss “if I wake up horny I should go to one of the boys’ rooms and “grind my cunt into his face and fuck the boy.” And that the boys have been “trained from an early age?” If true, and I dearly hope not, that means they’ve been sexually abused from an early age.
HIO is definitely getting abused in her relationship; he is doing something that hurts her, he knows it hurts her, and he keeps doing it. It’s the emotional equivalent of backhanding her and then saying it’s her fault. Either he needs to stop acting like he’s still single or she needs to DTMFA. I would vote for the latter since he obviously doesn’t understand concepts like “boundaries” or “respect” or “not being a douchebag”.
@40, 44
CleverScreenName, you forgot to mention that the father wants geriatric stepmom to wake up the kids by grinding her cunt in their faces. That suggests no one is waiting for the kids to turn 18… and it doesn’t sound particularly consensual. Most 12 year olds don’t want to be up to their ears in granny’s pussy when they wake up. I just hope that letter was a fake.
That first letter was possibly the most disgusting thing I’ve read in an advice column. It also managed to smear shit all over my favorite sexual deviancy – kukcholdree.
@44: Polanski drugged and raped a girl while she was screaming “no”. The letter doesn’t say to rape them. When people talk about sex, we should assume it’s consensual unless they indicate otherwise.
Of course I would have wanted a say in losing my virginity, but I’d at least appreciate the offer to have sex.
@45: He’s already indicated that he wants her to wait for their birthdays to take their virginity. So no waking up with an offer for sex. And waking someone up with cunt in the face is an offer of sex, not rape.
“trained” does not mean “sexually abused”. The “training” could mean verbal sex education to prepare them for when it’s time.
@47: The age of consent in the US is usually 16, though it depends on the state. And yes, most teenage boys think about sex a lot and are very interested in opportunities to have sex. I know, I was one not too long ago.
Again, it’s clear that this letter is nothing more than a wish to consensually introduce sex to kids, when they’re ready and old enough. Talking about calling the police is way premature at this point.
Dan’s advice to letter #2 sucks. I don’t think this girl is being passive aggressive at all! She’s tried to communicate issues that bother her, and he doesn’t care and doesn’t make any changes. His behavior is hurtful and disrespectful. He’s a jerk. DTMFA!
Letter #1 is a fake.
No No No on the second response. If that jack-ass doesn’t care that he’s hurting her, and fails to acknowledge that he has done anything wrong, DTMFA.
Perhaps she is insecure. Why would that be? 30 consecutive posts? Flirting constantly with other people? Won’t talk to her for a day or 2? ARe you kidding?
It doesn’t matter what he looks like. Fuck him. Move on.
Surprised at Dan’s response.
Eh, for number two, I don’t think he’s a jerk, and I don’t think she’s passive aggressive. They are just two people who want different things out of their relationship and they’re both too stubborn to compromise. So they’re probably better off going their separate ways.
I think a lot of the replies from people blaming one or the other are just replaying their own past issues.