I am a happily married,
happily nonmonogamous male. We are not wild swinger types. For us it’s
more about the fact that monogamy does not work than about nailing
everything that walks by. Anyway, I have encountered an odd situation a
few times now, and again last night, where I’ll be flirting with a
potential fling and she knows I’m married and she’s very interested.
But when she finds out my marriage is nonmonogamous, she suddenly backs
out. Case in point, a coworker: We have been flirting since I started
my new job a few months ago. Today she asked me what my wife would do
if she found out I was sneaking around on her. Good time to make a full
disclosure! But when I told her my situation, that was the end of our
flirtation.
Any idea why women find the idea of cheating
with me okay, but once they find out I have a free go of things, they
walk?
No Figuring Women
This woman didn’t find the idea of cheating
with you “okay,” NFW, she wanted to fuck you because you’re married and
presumably monogamous. Try to look at it from her perspective: When she
thought you were willing to cheat on your wife to be with her, NFW,
that meant you found her so attractive, so utterly irresistible, that
you would break your marriage vows and risk everything to get into her
pants. Sleeping with her with your wife’s permission? Meh, where’s the
ego boost in that?
I am a 40-ish married straight woman
living in New York. I have been happily married in a monogamous
relationship for 11 years. My husband and I met when we were in our
early 20s. After listening to all of the Savage Lovecasts together, we
started to talk about the idea of “some degree of openness,” as you put
it.
In the past year, I have had a crush on a
coworker. My husband is okay with me having something on the side with
this coworker. This coworker is single (last I heard) and 17 years
younger (yikes!), and he knows I am married. We had a great working
relationship while we were assigned to a project together, but now he’s
in another department. My question is, how to go from here? After
having a few good talks with my husband, I am excited about this idea
and terrified. I’m having a private lunch with my coworker soon. This
is fine with my husband. What can you tell me to calm me the hell down
and not be so stressed? After being conditioned my whole life that
monogamy is the only way to go, I am having a hard time shifting!
Newly Open Couple Lacks
Understanding
& Education
Have that lunch, and tell your
coworker/crush that you and the husband are just beginning to explore
the idea of openness. For all you know now, your much younger coworker
may not be interested in being your piece on the side. If it turns out
that he is interested, take things very, very slowly and keep your
husband fully informed. But even if I could relieve you of your stress
and anxiety with a few words, NOCLUE, I wouldn’t. You should be anxious and stressed out; it’s appropriate to be anxious
and stressed out. Your nervousness is prompting you to take things
slowly and to be careful and conscientious about your husband’s
feelings. If this works out—for you, for your coworker, for your
husband—it will be in large part thanks to the stress, NOCLUE,
not despite it. Enjoy.
I am in a strange situation. I work
in the corporate sector in marketing and sales. It is a high-stress,
fast-paced job, and everyone has a short fuse. I have a coworker who is
losing business to a competitor who happens to be gay. In her fits of
anger, she keeps calling him a faggot. I hate it. The thing is, I am
not gay. And if anyone in our office is, they are in the closet. She
has used the word in front of other coworkers and even our boss, and no
one seems to be bothered.
I am torn about what I should do. I am
black, and if she were using the word “nigger,” I would call her on it
and raise issue with our HR department. Can I file a complaint on
behalf of a group I do not belong to? If she found out I complained,
she would see it as a threat to her own job, which could lead to a
decidedly hostile workplace. But if it were a racial slur, I would not
let that deter me. I want to do the right thing. How would you handle
the situation?
Not My Problem?
If someone at my office were tossing the
word “nigger” around, NMP, I would lodge a complaint. I would resent
the assumption on my coworker’s part that since I’m white she can use
racist speech in my presence, because, hey, all us white people are
racist POS, right? And I would complain because a workplace that
tolerates racist remarks is a workplace that tolerates homophobic
remarks. If people are using “nigger” when there aren’t any black
people in the room, they’re doubtless using “faggot” when there aren’t
any gay people in the room. And vice versa. Have a word with HR.
I have a new coworker, a young man
who is gay and quite effeminate. He’s slim, wears makeup, has
boyish/feminine features, and has done some modeling work as a woman.
He said in a lunchroom discussion today that he prefers to wear women’s
clothes. He said he had worn women’s clothes at a previous workplace,
and no one had been offended. I suggested he talk to HR to protect his
job before coming to work dressed in women’s clothing. Good advice or
should I just mind my own business? One coworker suggested that he work
up to it, while another said he should just do it and let the chips
fall where they may. The question of what restroom he should use when
dressed as a woman came up. I’m not 100 percent comfortable sharing the
ladies’ room with him. Though I am certain most of the men won’t be
comfortable sharing the men’s room with him either.
Do you have any suggestions on how to handle
situations where I might find myself in the same restroom as my newest
coworker?
She Knows It’s Really Trivial
If your coworker identifies as female, she
should use the women’s room. If he identifies as male, he should use
the men’s room. And seeing as he’s using the men’s room
now—despite his wearing makeup and being openly gay—I don’t
see how the addition of a dress should change things for his male
coworkers. And from the way you describe that lunchroom conversation,
SKIRT, it sounds like your effeminate new coworker has at least some
support at work—but yes, he should have a talk with HR.
As for “handling situations” where you find
yourself in the same restroom with your newest coworker, SKIRT, unless
you routinely offer to zip up your coworkers or wipe their asses for
them, I don’t see how his presence—or his attire or the
particular brand of genitalia tucked into his panties—really
impacts you at all. 
Yayeah! nothing like some good work place advice!
good selection of letters. I really liked your answer for NOCLUE.
NMP should definitely say something. Not only is is just plain wrong to be silent, it’s also bringing everyone else down and reducing the creative output of the entire department.
there’s lots of alt answers for NFW, but most likely, the coworker he’s flirting with is HELLO! FLIRTING. Not trying to get laid–flirting. As long as he’s putatively monogamous, that’s safe enough, but once it becomes a serious possibility, she’s out of there.
Whatever happened to good ol’ Ally McBeal-style co-ed “gender neutral” bathrooms? That would ease some of these gender-bending growing pains.
the theme seems to be people unable to seize (squeeze?) the moment; to say something on behalf of others or for oneself. Boring! That’s 90% of the population. And as for the first guy who’s trying to seize his own moment, well he’s boring too.
I agree with 5 – I don’t think NFW or NOCLUE’s piece on the side is actually interested. Maybe they should hook up.
Great advice Dan!
For NOCLUE, isn’t part of the thrill of “cheating” the anxiety and stress of it all? I think when it’s no longer stressful, it’ll also be no longer interesting, right? Yeah, human behavior is fucking weird, just go with it.
SKIRT’s coworker should definitely inform HR before just showing up dressed as female. Let people know ahead of time so no one mistakes it for a punk’d episode or is left confused or something.
As usual, spot-on advice! It saddens me that NMP needs someone to tell him to speak up. Hate speech is hate speech. Period.
I’d think of it more as what a man has to offer a woman, what he brings to the table. All women should really know this already, that married men are never going to leave their wives, but for some reason hope springs eternal. That is, unless you make totally clear that they will never be anything but a fling, a meaningless piece on the side to be used sexually and then thrown away. Such as when you’re in a nonmonogamous marriage thats going to stay that way. Then as Dan says, the women go, meh. Even the ones who sleep with married men think they’re worthy of the possibility of something more. When its made clear that thats not where they rank, they’re not interested. This of course doesn’t make it ethical for you to stop disclosing and pretend otherwise, so as to get your flings. I totally respect people who have the OK from their spouses. But no one’s obligated to sleep with them. Its just the tough break that is life.
Does not seem to be legal grounds for discrimation complaint if HR vetos the male cross dresser from wearing skirts – and more so if the guy identifies with males. This would not be discrimation based on gender, and would be hard to make an arguement for discrimination based on sexual orientation. Company could argue to allow it would cause disruption to the workplace and potential loss of clients. I dont think the HR tribunals in 2009 would support this complaint.
NMP really should say something, and I’m surprised he hasn’t. Dan, I’m glad you pointed out that they would want a white person to say something should the N word be used in their presence.
Also, sounds like SKIRT’s got a serious “I don’t want a penis touching my public toilet seat” complex. What is she so worried about happening?
The advice regarding which bathroom to use seems a little off. Why are the coworkers obliged to feel uncomfortable because some gender fucktard can’t make up his mind? You have male anatomy – use the Men’s Room — female parts – use the Ladies Room. Christ, it is not rocket science, and this system has worked for millions of years, why make it fucking confusing now? When Janie boy goes under the knife THEN he can change restrooms.
I’m always sad when I finish the last letter… no more til next week. But I just found a hilarious advice column written by a foppish scoundrel born in 1578 or something… check it out. Google Ask Rodger Goodwyn and you’ll find it. You can even write him a letter and he’ll answer! http://askrodgergoodwyn.blogspot.com/
Google Ask Rodger Goodwyn for advice from a bawdy, Shakespearian dude from the 15th century. HILARIOUS!
Is anyone else having trouble accessing the rest of the comments beyond the first 5?
I’ve tried the link immediately above the “add a comment” window, which shows there are 17 comments at this point, and also the “all comments” link at the top of the comments section.
I don’t see an opportunity to sign in w/o posting a comment. Am I missing something?
Oh yeah! Great stuff this week, Dan.
@5: Yeah, I didn’t read it as the co-worker getting a bigger ego boost when she assumed it was cheating.
But that she was FLIRTING. With the safety that nothing would happen. And if something started to happen, or more than she wanted, she could always threaten to tell his wife.
But as a free-range husband he’s just as “risky” as most other guys. And she only wanted to flirt when options were limited and greater control was hers.
really silly answers this week. why do you suggest in your answer to skirt that her coworker could use the women’s toilet? just because he’s gay? he’s a man, and what if he wears a dress? why should he use the women’s toilet???
and to the people with open marriages. flirt, etc… but a full disclosure of your marital status and your deal with your wife/husband is not necessary to flirt., even to fuck someone. as long as you let them know that you are committed to someone elkse, I don’t really see why you sould explain which are exactly the rules of your commitment.. .5 is right on the spot.
What if the coworker had a bad habit of calling people names like Ligger, or Gigger because the N word was offensive?
Dan, when you changed from calling people “retards” to calling people LeoTards you did not change much.
Would you give advice to cut bigots a break if their hate speech changed to shouting insults that sounded like “Fagot” but did not start with “F”.
Dan, you can’t stand the hypocrisy of Santorm, nor can I. But will you please do what you say and clean up the hate sppech, aka use other adjectives than “retard”. Nobody is forcing me to listen to your podcasts, but you sliped in “Tard” recently. barf.
That is right for NMP: In most state civil rights laws, you may complain if you are offended by a discriminatory slur even if you are not in the “protected category.” –Employment Discrimination Attorney.
“a workplace that tolerates racist remarks is a workplace that tolerates homophobic remarks. “
Likewise….Newspapers are justified if they have a problem with people who use remarks that rhyme with the N word, and they should not tolerate Dan or anyone who frequently and recently uses remarks like “Tard” and “Leotard”.
Please Dan, check yourself. offer a real apology to people with mental disabilities and their friends. Open up your Thesaurus and avoid your history of bigoted adjectives.
NFW – I agree with the red-headed cubs etc.: the woman wanted to flirt, as many women (and men) do. Actually, I give her props: once she found out that for NFW consummation was actually a possibility and he was seriously pursuing her, she didn’t continue to “lead him on,” but withdrew completely. ‘Cause she wasn’t interested in sex – just in flirting.
To No Clue: Theory and fantasy are one thing, reality may be something entirely different. Things may work out fine, but they could also turn out to be disaster for you and/or husband. You (plural) may think you’re fine with an open life style, but realize after the fact that you’re not. Once fantasy becomes reality, there is no going back and you will have to deal with the consequences. This will forever change your relationship with your husband, you will no longer be the same people, and your (plural) commitment to your relationship and each other may well change. So think long and hard about what you are risking and whether sex is really worth it?
I agree with Kim. If she is offended, there is a good chance others are, as well, and are just afraid of speaking up. If she doesn’t feel comfortable with pulling this co-worker aside and saying, “hey, cool it with the slurs; it’s making me uncomfortable”, that’s fine, but someone needs to have a talk with her. She needs to grow up.
The co-worker and the writer, both. I’m so tired of this PC bull-shit. Why is everyone so afraid of offending everyone else? Speak up! That’s the only way people like this are going to know they need to behave themselves. Not everyone is OK with hearing homophobic slurs every single day at work.
I think another issue with the flirty co-worker is that as long as she thinks the guy’s cheating, then she is in the position of power – she’s in on the secret.
But when she learns that his wife knows and approves – then the wife still has primacy in the relationship and flirty co-worker is just his piece on the side – not so powerful.
I believe flirting is often as much about power dynamics as about sex.
I have two questions about Dan’s response to NMP:
1. What does POS stand for? Pieces of Shit? Plenty of Sex? Penises Off Site? Please Offer Service?
and
2. When he says “And vice versa” what exactly is he referring to here?
Thanks, folks!
All you workplace people, some advice from a corporate-cubicle veteran: be a boring stiff who does not make waves at work. These letters evidence way to much concern about this or that personal choice or concern intruding into the workplace. Need something exciting in your daily life? Fine, get as freaky as you want at 5:01 pm. until 8 am the next day. Wear beige at work, though.
When you start involving yourself in dramatic scenes others are creating at work, or worse yet, start making your own scenes, bosses start to see you as one of the headaches in the office.
Guess who is first to go in downsizings? If others are creating problems, let them stay other people’s problems.
so, Dan says, “If someone at my office were tossing the word ‘nigger’ around, NMP, I would lodge a complaint.”
Stupid advice. At most go talk to the person, tell them others may react like you do, and that would be bad for the hater. If that doesn’t end the behavior, and the company actually gives a rat’s ass about “faggot”-epithet slingers, that person is slitting their own throat. Let the person keep slitting their own throat and stay well clear in the meantime of that walking corpse. If the company does *not* care about such epithets, lodging a complaint will be taking a piss in the punch bowl around the office. If you care about the job much, don’t do that–you may end up looking for a new job 6 mos. from now because of some other alleged reason.
Oh, and that middle aged woman about to hit on a coworker 17 years younger than you? Eeeek. I was that late twenties something guy with tight abs in a corporate office working with women old enough to be my mom. When gals old enough to be my mom cougared up on me, it usually creeped me out. To be really blunt, most of them were not women I did want to have sex with. Even if I found them attractive enough to sleep with, I would rather not have had them bring their mid-life crisis into my work-life. I am sure you gals who had to deal with paunchy, bald guys hitting on you at work know what I am saying. Why do you think it is different for guys that same age facing the advances of older women?
And for both the guy and the gal looking for a bit on the side and doing so at work, you have absolutely no one to blame but yourself if the office gossip becomes you are involved in a swinging, deviant marriage and you hunt for new meat at work. The workplace rumor mill will most likely turn your discrete advances into slobberingly aggressive overtures. That is why people always say keep that stuff well away from the office. Ever heard of Craigslist?
@29: Dan means if a workplace tolerates homophobic remarks, it’ll probably tolerate racist remarks; and if it tolerated racist remarks, it’d probably tolerate homophobic remarks. Hence: “vice versa.”
Really great collection this week, Dan, and loving the workplace theme.
@29: “Why do you think it is different for guys that same age facing the advances of older women?”
Who says it’s different? But who says older, paunchy guys aren’t allowed to make a pass for younger women? Just be nice, not too pushy, and if she’s clearly not interested, back off immediately and don’t pursue it.
More often than not, it’s the manner that offends, not a person’s age or appearance.
Oops, sorry, my last remakrs are for @30.
There was some study or another about how married men are more attractive because they’re a proven product. In other words, some woman has taken the guy out for a test drive and likes him enough to keep him so he must be desirable.
here we go:
http://www.infoniac.com/offbeat-news/sin…
So according to that skeeviness, those women wanted to get the whole new wife package not just to be an add-on
My wonderful university is making all the bathrooms unisex. Yay for post-genderism!
So if I start identifying as female, I can go sit in the women’s room and jerk of to them peeing?
Re: NFW… I suspect that 5 and the rest of the “it was only flirting” theorists have the highest likelihood of having gotten it right. (DS’s answer presupposes that most women who fuck married men do so because they’re surreptitiously competing with the wife, and my experience is that that’s only true of a small and particularly skanky subset.) I’d like to suggest an alternative theory, though. It is admittedly low-probability, but if correct for at least some cases, it could increase NFW’s chances. It is this: they’re guarding against a three-way with the wife. It’s unfortunate, but the “open marriage, happily non-monogamous” approach has been used more than once as a foot-in-the-door technique to get a third for the guy and his wife. There are a lot more women looking to get laid than there are looking to be a third for an established couple, NFW. Tell them from the start that it’ll just be the two of you, with no chance that the wife will join in later, and you might have better luck.
NFW.. This may be a ‘duh’ moment, but women usually abhor interaction with emotionally unavailable males (unless you want that guy to go away… quickly) much less emotionally unavailable married males whose wives encourage them use other women like playthings. The world doesn’t revolve around what makes you and your spouse happy, sorry.
Holy moley, there’s a troll on the loose! One post cannot contain his outrage! There must be MANY two-sentence, gramatically questionable posts under different names in rapid succession! WAAAHHH!
Small addition to the response to NFW: a woman looking to sleep with a married man usually harbors some wish that he would eventually leave his wife for her. The fact that the man has his wife’s permission to fool around on the side drastically diminishes the possibility, so the woman decides not to bother.
@38: Where does it say that his wife encourages him to “use” other women like “playthings”?
“women usually abhor interaction with emotionally unavailable males”
He SAYS the women who flirt with him are interested in him at first *because* he’s married.
I think most guys, married or not, get turned down when all they’re offering a woman is a fling. Its the eternal problem for guys who are just wanting to get laid. It doesn’t make women incomprehensible creatures. I think we have another polyamorous person drumming up some trite faux-confusion.
To all the people saying this woman “just wanted to flirt,” I think Dan did well to pick up on this part of the situation described:
“Today she asked me what my wife would do if she found out I was sneaking around on her.”
This makes me believe she has an investment in what the wife thinks. It doesn’t sound like she was just flirting for fun.
Nothing says “You’re just a piece of ass” more than revealing you’re in an open relationship. Insist all all you want that you’re not a “wild swinger type”, but as soon as you share that info, it’s all gold medallions and chest hair.
I found the last letter slightly annoying. What’s so freaking scary about sharing a restroom with a cross dresser? I get why men might be uncomfortable with a woman coming into their restroom since they are pissing in the open, but as far as I know, ladies’ restrooms have stalls and I doubt this guy will be waving his penis outside a stall, so don’t go and share a stall with him, for heaven’s sakes.
I have some advice for all of these people thinking about hitting on their co-workers. Please consult your HR department’s sexual harassment policy first. (Something Dan never seems to bring up whenever this situation arises.) Sometimes even the most benign behavior can have ugly repercussions. You don’t want to lose your job in this economy (and have to explain in future job interviews why you were fired). Food for thought.
Sorry, but that advice to NOCLUE is clueless. Starting an extramarital relationship at work with someone much younger (and probably much lower in rank) is a recipe for disaster. Sexual harrassment complaints from the young man, other complaints and resentment from men and women who do not receive the favoritism this young guy will get, and just plain unprofessional drama when it comes to break up time. Not a wise move in this economy.
karey (@11 and @42)
i think you’re making some dangerous assumptions about what sex means to people.
“unless you make totally clear that they will never be anything but a fling, a meaningless piece on the side to be used sexually and then thrown away.”
as a woman in a very stable, successful and happy polyamorous relationship, i take issue with this characterization of sex. i have several relationships that are primarily sexual, and i wouldn’t define any of them as “meaningless.” they are fun, casual and each is extremely fulfilling in its own way. no one is “using” anyone in these relationships, and we all have far too much respect for each other to “throw [anyone] away” when the relationship reaches its conclusion.
and as for my male partner and his other female lovers (and male lovers, for that matter), he has yet to become involved with anyone who wants to usurp my position in his life. you see, we don’t respect these gender norms that dictate sexual ownership, entitlement, conquest or manipulation, and we don’t get involved with people who buy into that bullshit.
i will agree with you that the perspectives you discuss are very prevalent. however, i think it’s a tragedy that many people subscribe to these beliefs, and i choose to live my life without them. it’s ignorant and presumptuous of you to characterize casual sex for others as it is for you.
Re: People puzzled by SKIRT:
I don’t think it’s the issue of sharing a bathroom with a crossdresser so much as it is an issue with sharing a bathroom with a man.
For most women, the societal understanding is that if a man you don’t know or don’t know well is in the women’s public restroom, he’s a pervert or he’s trying to rape you. Women are socialized to think of dudes in there as something that should trigger a fight-or-flight kind of response.
Which, maybe is something that needs to change, but I can understand why someone would be made uncomfortable by it without being especially conservative or a homophobe.
I agree that NFW’s co-worker was most likely doing some innocent flirting, expecting it would never lead anywhere since he was married. But I also agree with @15 that it’s possible she thought there was an opportunity for a “no strings” one-time-only fling since he’d keep it quiet, but felt intimidated when she found out that he wouldn’t be sneaking around. Dan’s answer was fun, and a take I hadn’t considered, but seems somewhat less likely IMO.
Damn, how did I post a response almost like the one right before mine? Sorry, Kevin-94.
As to the outrage over hate speech towards retards, this is getting to be too much.
“Please Dan, check yourself. offer a real apology to people with mental disabilities and their friends.”
I understand that using the word or words that refer to another group is insulting to that group, and that calling them “leotards” doesn’t fool anything.
But suddenly making a perfectly respectable word like “retarded” off limits because it used as an insult is ridiculous. It’s not like the words “faggot” and “nigger” which are used to insult because their connotations. “Retard” is used for it’s denotations, and is usually reserved for people who the speaker knows perfectly well are *not* retarded. Nobody over the age of 13 calls retarded people “retards”. Change the rules about what words are permissible, and people 10 year olds will just switch to other words or phrases like “short bus” (and also people who think it’s cute to use playground insults from when they were 10 year olds). You’re not going to accomplish anything that way.
Did the retarded people manufacture this outrage themselves? Most retarded people wouldn’t have known any differently, unless some unretarded person is coaching them to be offended. And “retarded” is itself a euphemism for the old words people called them, like “idiots” and “fools”. Are those words off limits now too, or has the statute of limitations run out? If we agree to say “mentally disabled”, why can’t we use “retarded” the same way those other words are now used? Just recently lots of people got offended because Sarah Palin referred to her child as retarded. Then she had to pretend she would never use such an offensive word (because lying is her first reaction to anything).
The reaction of women to the married gentleman in the open relationship sadly confirms my worst suspicions about the female mind. Many (though not all) women feel “empowered” by sabotaging a relationship, whereas in reality they are human cum buckets for these attached men. Don’t think I’m letting off men who cheat on their spouses – instead of seeking therapy for their insecurities they effectively whack off into some hapless chick who is equally insecure.
In an ideal universe we’d all be well-adjusted and secure, yet in reality most of us make stupid decisions because of unresolved fear, anger, etc. To be perfectly clear, I’m perilously insecure, yet instead of hurting innocent spouses/girlfriends my wounds tend to be self-inflicted. Smart? Nope, but I feel better knowing that I haven’t left too many victims in my wake.