Savage Love

1. Thanks Dan! I work in the HR group and I alawys welcome people to come and let me know what’s on their minds and what needs they have. Thanks for the nod that it’s perfectly ok to come here. Only in rare circumstances do I take a big permanent marker and write the word “fink” on their foreheads when they leave my office. 😉 just kidding…but there are certainly those, like the foul mouthed woman listed here, who would earn “POS” for all to see…sigh, if only I had that much leeway and power. Someday…lol

2. The reaction of women to the married gentleman in the open relationship sadly confirms my worst suspicions about the female mind. Many (though not all) women feel “empowered” by sabotaging a relationship, whereas in reality they are human cum buckets for these attached men. Don’t think I’m letting off men who cheat on their spouses – instead of seeking therapy for their insecurities they effectively whack off into some hapless chick who is equally insecure.

   In an ideal universe we’d all be well-adjusted and secure, yet in reality most of us make stupid decisions because of unresolved fear, anger, etc. To be perfectly clear, I’m perilously insecure, yet instead of hurting innocent spouses/girlfriends my wounds tend to be self-inflicted. Smart? Nope, but I feel better knowing that I haven’t left too many victims in my wake.

3. No unisex bathrooms! I’ve already had to deal with pissy toilet seats at home, at least keep some public ones free from the guys!

   As to NFW, maybe the women think he’s lying. Of course, if they’re flirting with married men, you’d think they’d be OK with a guy who lies. However, maybe once he says “My wife’s OK with it,” they think he’s a delusional liar, and change their minds.

4. @43: I am not sure that comment necessarily meant anything. Could just be part of the flirtation.

   And just for the record, it’s not just women…men do this too. I can’t tell you how many times guys flirted hardcore with me only to reject me once I expressed that I was actually interested in them (I was a bit of an Ugly Betty back then and they smelled the desperation). Some were nice about it, and we stayed friends, some were not so nice and it was a bit painful. But such is life…

5. offwhite (@48)

   Will you marry me? Oh wait, I forgot, I’m gay!

   Oh wait, that’s okay! Can I join your co-op?

   I LOVE reading postings from evolved individuals,
   or groups even… Many blessings!

   BTW… My question from last night, (#18) has resolved its self.
   Today, all postings are showing at first access, as usual.

6. As a lifelong homophobe, I am extremely upset by the accusation of being a racist. You have no right to judge my prejudices with your ill-conceived notion of what goes on in a homophobic mind. It’s actually very easy to maintain a single-minded approach to hate and not to jump all over the place with loosey-goosey, limp-wristed, typical liberalism while complaining about the “injustice” of hate. What a bunch of hooey

7. “As for ‘handling situations’ where you find yourself in the same restroom with your newest coworker, SKIRT, unless you routinely offer to zip up your coworkers or wipe their asses for them, I don’t see how his presence—or his attire or the particular brand of genitalia tucked into his panties—really impacts you at all.”

   Damn, that’s brilliant.

8. Great advice to all the people this week Dan. I must take issue with the last letter though – not the person writing it, but the person she’s writing about.

   Yes, I believe that we all should be free to be who we really are, regardless of what that is, but this is about the WORKPLACE.

   Most people in the workplace have enough sense to either not display their whole lifestyle, or tone down who they are in the workplace. It’s a professional environment, so why does this guy feel the need to put his personal business on display? That should be reserved for when he goes out AFTER work to the tranny bars, or places where others like him congregate.

   This whole situation brings the recent controversy at Morehouse to mind.

9. #5, are you a sensible Cubs fan (a rare human being, in my opinion), or the sensible wife of a Cubs fan? This female Chicagoan and sort-of sensible Cubs fan wants to know!

10. Oh, and for the posters who’ve wondered about problems with posting/viewing comments: The Stranger appears to be using a third-party comment application now.

    If your comment doesn’t appear right after you’ve posted it, give the app a few minutes to make your comment appear. If you can’t link to the comments at all, you might need to wait an hour or two and try back.

    If a link Dan’s included in a post doesn’t work, email him directly with a link and the address of the page on which it appears, and he’ll take care of the problem quickly.

11. @55: you’ve never been in a ladies’ room after someone hovered? You get pissy seats either way.

12. Gay is not a race. Even in the workplace. You want her job and you’re trying to save face. An excuse to talk to DS, and get a little taste. Of attention to you and your sensitive, worldly embrace. To me, you are just full of s – and your letter was a waste (of column space).

13. #30, your advice is terrific. The coworkers will want to be “discreet” rather than “discrete,” though.

14. Goodness. The first letter is easy to answer. The woman may have only been flirting. Hello–she works with him! She was probably never serious about it past that point. Lots of people flirt, esp when it’s with someone equally coupled. When he made it clear that he’d like it to be more than innocent flirting, he was no longer safe.

    Or perhaps she was actually interested and would have been willing to cheat with him, but only if it could turn into something more. Knowing from the outset that it would never be more than purely sexual–i.e. no possiblity for great love–then game over.

    No matter how good a man might be in bed, most women want at least the hope of something emotional/something meaningful to be part of the deal.

    Or it could be what Dan said. In any event, I do applaud this guy’s honesty about his intentions. That kind of frankness will be rewarded when karma sends the right candidate along his path. Good luck to him.

15. @56: Possible too. Still, I don’t think we’d really know without asking the co-worker herself.

    @55: #63 is right. Hovering is definitely a problem with a lot of women.

16. @48, that’s great but there’s also a lot of people who are just looking to get laid. Its just as presumptuous to assume anyone wants to be your fling, as it is to presume someone is flirting with you because they’re interested in you as a person or might want you to be their primary. When the op discloses, the women stop flirting because the fling is not what they want. This does not make the women ignorant crazies. They just aren’t signing up for it. The reason you don’t get involved with people who buy into all that, is because they don’t want to be involved with you either. This is the phenomenon NFW is experiencing and complaining about, and who I think is just pretending to play dumb to point out he’s morally superior to these monogamists who seem ok with cheating. He’s right I’m sure, but its still transparent and obnoxious.

17. A person considering a fling with someone in a monogamous relationship views him/her like a dog on a chain: you can control how close you get; you know he/she cannot run free and invade your life. This is probably most appealing to those who tend to feel crowded/suffocated in a standard relationship; either finding it hard to set boundaries and enforce them, or maybe tending to feel most attracted to fuckups who won’t ever respect reasonable boundaries.

18. NFW: maybe when she found out that you & your wife swing, she realized that her risk of going home with an STD cocktail between her legs just went up exponentially. HIV & herpes can ruin your whole day.

    NMP: I would print out an anonymous letter as follows:

    “Dear Carole: I work with you. I am not gay but that’s no reason I should have to listen to you use the epithet “faggot” when you are upset about your competitor Hank. If I EVER hear that word in the workplace again, I will file a complaint with H.R. I am writing anonymously to allow you to save face but do NOT mistake that as fear. If getting you to stop means keeping a record of incidents, gathering witnesses and getting you fired, I’ll do it. It is 2009. I will not tolerate intolerance.

    Thank you.”

19. SKIRT’s co-worker is right to bring this up with co-workers openly, *before* he decides to go for it and come to work in a skirt. Yes, this is the workplace – but this isn’t about his sex life, it’s about his lifestyle. I would be the first to agree that bedroom activities shouldn’t come into play at the workplace (that includes the kind of flirting the first two letter-writers were doing) – but wearing a skirt has nothing to do with sex.

    By floating the idea out there, SKIRT’s co-worker is giving the management a chance to quietly tell him there will be a problem, *before* he bites the bullet and shows up in feminine apparel. Any issues would be relatively minor as long as the idea is hypothetical – but once he shows up to work in a dress, then everything is official and HR and lawyers and who knows who else may be dragged in. Even if the immediate co-workers don’t have an issue with it, it could turn into an HR nightmare.

20. First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a communist;
    Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist;
    Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist;
    Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew;
    Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak out for me. (by Martin Niemöller)

21. Wow, 64 is a shitty poet and he doesn’t know it.

22. Re Not My Problem:

    Don’t have a word with HR … yet.

    You owe it to yourself to have a word with the co-worker before you go to HR. You don’t need to mention your orientation, which has nothing to do with this. All you need say is, “Look, you keep saying ‘faggot’ and I find it highly offensive and unprofessional. I’d like you to stop. I don’t want to go to HR because maybe you haven’t thought about how offensive that word is.”

    You’ll atone for your sin of silence and you might even help her understand that she is being hurtful and stupid. If she’s a deep bigot and keeps using it, THEN go to HR.

23. NFW: I am a single woman, and I have a married male friend with whom I share an acknowledged mutual attraction. I would be deliriously happy and consider myself very lucky if his wife gave him permission to fuck me (unfortunately for me, they are monogamous and it’s not open for discussion). Being the second to someone in an open marriage has some points in its favour: the lack of strings, the relative safety, the relatively low drama factor. I’m sure there are other women out there who feel the same.

    @74: totally agree.

24. Oops missed this one, from MT3:

    “It’s a professional environment, so why does this guy feel the need to put his personal business on display? That should be reserved for when he goes out AFTER work to the tranny bars, or places where others like him congregate.”

    His personal business? Like, say, the pictures of your wife on your desk? (Why do people need to advertise their sex lives?) Like, your photo of Kirk Gibson after he hit the homer for the Dodgers? (How do your hobbies have any place in the workplace?) Like, say, any mention around the water cooler of what you’re doing after work or on the weekend? (Stop wasting work time!)

    No straight person ever thinks they’re putting their personal business on display when they talk about their spouses. No man who identifies as male and wants to dress as a male ever thinks he’s advertising that fact when he wears a pair of pants in public.

    MT3, shut up unless you’re willing to wear a unisex smock to work. How could it possibly matter to you how your coworker dresses, so long as it’s a professional skirt or professional pants?

25. I just went through every comment to see if Dan’s last sentence offended anyone else, other than me. That is not the correct use of “impact.” And Dan show know that.

    See:

    http://books.google.com/books?id=z_VmtjA…

    To use “impact” improperly is leotarded, Dan.

26. I have a coworker that uses the word gay to describe things she dislikes or thinks are stupid. She’s aware that I’m gay, she seems to have no problem with it. She has even asked to come to the gay bars on several occasions. Imagine my shock when she hollers, and I mean hollers loud while we’re in the middle of a conversation standing in a parking lot. Literally hollered GAY to her friend across the lot to tell her how ridiculous she thought the outfit on her daughter was. This has turned into a trend which I cut short by telling her that I don’t give a shit if she doesn’t understand why I find that incredibly offensive but I expect her to respect the way I feel about it. Haven’t heard it since but frankly I certainly wouldn’t be surprised that someone that self involved still uses it when i’m not around. sad…

27. NMP is none other than Savage himself. All slurs are inappropriate and on those grounds none should be used in the workplace. But there’s is no comparison to be made between the slur that ‘NMP’ has supposedly heard and the one Savage used in the ‘response’ to ‘her’. There’s a long clear history of murder and all imaginable atrocities associated with the N word that bears no historical nor social comparison whatsoever in this country with any other slur that can be uttered. All African Americans know this all too painfully well.

    SKIRT’s coworkers shouldn’t have to be the ones dealing with this problem, this matter should be taken head-on by the his employer as soon as possible cause this has the potential of creating a very uncomfortable work environment. Based on the fact that SKIRT as a male in his previous job did the same thing and remained as a male, his intentions are not of someone who identifies with any clear gender. This is a very frequent behavior expressed by people like him and coworkers of his both male and female have every reason to feel uncomfortable and talk with HR if they don’t address this matter with SKIRT and he decides to present himself in women’s clothing and make use of the restrooms. Because the freedoms of expression we all enjoy are not a green light to inconvenience and disrupt upon the lives and work of those around.

28. “There’s a long clear history of murder and all imaginable atrocities associated with the N word that bears no historical nor social comparison whatsoever in this country with any other slur that can be uttered”

    @79 and several others:
    You’re suggesting that the word “faggot” has not been used in association with oppression or murder? Or that it still isn’t? What if someone said that “The N Word” can’t be compared to “faggot”, and that “faggot” is the more oppressive one because it is used against people who still don’t have their civil rights.

29. @ 79 again.

    I’m not done. I can think of other terms that stand a chance against “The N Word”, in regards to your statement that no other slur can compare. What about “The G Word” and “The J Word”, used against Asians or Asian-Americans. Consider that the Chinese were banned from entering the US for decades, and the Japanese were put in internment camps during World War II.

    I could come up with more examples if you require them.

30. ooh, thanks ggg@17, that was amusing.

31. re:NFW (the suddenly disinterested female at work) Be grateful! I actually gave permission to a woman to fool around with my husband, and she fell for him SO HARD that she tried to fuck with his head and get him to leave me! Sheesh! FWIW, I think flirting at work is fun, but bringing someone from work into a non-monogamous situation takes just too much work with boundary issues. Thankfully, we’re back to sane, reasonable extra lovers, not insanely jealous ones!

32. To Not My Problem:

    Homosexuals are not a protected class under the constitution (yet), so you will likely not get the same reaction from HR that you would if your coworker was using a racial slur. The outcome will likely depend on how liberal your company is, so perhaps you should raise the issue with your coworker first. If she knows you are offended, she may stop using the offensive language. If she overreacts to your suggestion, that may be more evidence to take to HR.

33. I agree with eaglecrowgirl.

    Before running to HR, I’d suggest just telling the coworker you’re uncomfortable with how she’s talking. Ask her not to use that kind of language in the workplace, straight out.

    Sometimes, peer pressure is enough to get people behaving the right way.

34. Dan: ‘This woman didn’t find the idea of cheating with you “okay,” NFW, she wanted to fuck you because you’re married and presumably monogamous.’

    This is along the same lines of that phenomenon that every guy is familiar with: many women find you more appealing when you’re involved with another woman than when you’re single and available.

35. #42/Karey: “I think most guys, married or not, get turned down when all they’re offering a woman is a fling. Its the eternal problem for guys who are just wanting to get laid.”

    Absolutely. It’s much harder for a typical man to find a woman for casual sex than it is for a typical woman to find a man for that. Men like an emotional connection but they don’t require it in order to fuck to the degree that women do.

    I’m not excusing lying in order to get laid but the reason men do it is that most women require some profession of feelings from a guy before they’re willing to get naked with him. Women don’t have to lie in order to get laid because if a woman is honest with a guy and says, “I just wanna have sex”, his response is “No problem!”

36. The words “nigger” and “faggot” are completely inappropriate in the work place, as is the word “tard” and “retarded” for any publication with a modicum of integrity. Dan and The Stranger, I’m looking at you. See Slog posting: http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archive….

37. *applauds #76*

    I worked with a woman once who talked endlessly at work about her ex-husband and her troubled son. One time, when I’d heard enough from her about how gays “should keep their personal lives private,” I turned to her and asked, as sweetly as possible, “Nancy, do you leave your personal life at home?”

    I never heard her use the “gays should keep their personal lives private” line again.

38. #77: To say “show” when you mean “should” is leotarded!

    People in glass houses, bitch. Ya know?

39. @40, 42, 44

    You’re all spot on about what’s happening here. Not exactly sexy for her to find out that she really is just a piece of ass for him. Woman can get laid any day of the week. No thanks – she’s gone. Either that, or this chick really *was* just flirting and had no intention of making it a reality.

    @57

    Oh wow, you’re both just soooooo “evolved” from the rest of the lower species of monogamous people. STFU, dickwad. Accept the fact that people are all different when it comes to what they want/can handle in love and relationships and most people are just comfortable with monogamy. Are bisexuals “evolved” because they can have sex with both genders? Are gay people “evolved” because they can have sex with people of their same gender? Of course not. They’re just different. You ain’t better than nobody, asshole, and it’s pathetic you’ve led yourself to believe that. Get a life.

40. @91: I still find that sentiment ironic. When you’re the woman a man is cheating with on his wife, she’s generally a “piece of ass.”

    I mean, sure, there could be an emotional connection there, and it’d be a full-blown affair, but we’ve heard so many cases of women who hope that a husband would leave his wife for her after fucking around for a while — and he doesn’t, because he’d be risking kids, his bank account, whatever, etc., and he was just looking for some fun.

41. “If your coworker is female, she should use the women’s room. If he is male, he should use the men’s room.”

    FIFY.

42. @5 “there’s lots of alt answers for NFW, but most likely, the coworker he’s flirting with is HELLO! FLIRTING. Not trying to get laid–flirting. As long as he’s putatively monogamous, that’s safe enough, but once it becomes a serious possibility, she’s out of there.”

    Good call. An old friend recently put an abrupt end to the ‘dirtier’ aspect of our now long-distance friendship when I suggested we hook up when he comes to town. He’ll flirt – hell, he’ll talk dirty and send homemade porn – but the thought of actually fucking a married woman apparently did him in.

43. I have an observation along the same lines as Dan’s to NFW. I traveled a lot in my job and was away from home weeks and months at a time. I eventually had to stop wearing my wedding ring so that women would quit hitting on me. I guess in their minds the fact some woman, my wife, wanted me, I was worth persuing. Without the ring I was just another single guy .

44. @90

    Fuck, you’re right. Whoops. But I was right too.

45. I am in a strange situation. I work in the corporate sector in marketing and sales. It is a high-stress, fast-paced job, and everyone has a short fuse. I have a coworker who is losing business to a competitor who happens to HAVE A MENTAL DISABILITY. In her fits of anger, she keeps calling him a RETARD. I hate it. The thing is, I am not MENTALLY DISABLED. And if anyone in our office is, they are in the closet. She has used the word in front of other coworkers and even our boss, and no one seems to be bothered.

    I am torn about what I should do. I am black, and if she were using the word “nigger,” I would call her on it and raise issue with our HR department. Can I file a complaint on behalf of a group I do not belong to? If she found out I complained, she would see it as a threat to her own job, which could lead to a decidedly hostile workplace. But if it were a racial slur, I would not let that deter me. I want to do the right thing. How would you handle the situation?

    Not My Problem?

    If someone at my office were tossing the word “RETARD” around, NMP, I would lodge a complaint. I would resent the assumption on my coworker’s part that since I’m NOT MENTALLY DISABLED she can use HATE speech in my presence, because, hey, all us NOT MENTALLY DISABLED people THINK IT’S FUNNY, right? And I would complain because a workplace that tolerates HATEFUL remarks is a workplace that tolerates homophobic remarks. If people are using “nigger” when there aren’t any black people in the room, they’re doubtless using “RETARD” when there aren’t any MENTALLY DISABLED people in the room. And vice versa. Have a word with HR.

    Awesome advice, Dan Savage. You hypocrite.

    http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archive…

46. Re: #95 and others who’ve made similar comments about married men being more attractive.

    Sure, maybe it’s some unconscious female competition, or maybe it’s just harmless flirting…

    But, maybe? Maybe married men are more attractive because they’re not trying so hard. One of the things I hate about being single is that so few single men just “talk” to me. They’re always working an angle, trying a pitch–and I feel manipulated and, on occasion, repulsed by them. I often wonder, “If they have to go to such lengths to present such an orchestrated script/scenario/line, is it because they’ve got nothing real to offer?”

    With married men, they interact more naturally cuz they’re not trying to score with you. That leaves you more of an opportunity to get to know them…and, surprise surprise, feelings can develop.

    I also find that I’m less guarded about myself with men that I know to be taken… so maybe that’s part of it too.

47. Following the track that a number of other folks have picked up on, if you substituted “retard” for “nigger” or “faggot,” though, that would be okay in Dan Savage’s world, right? Just a different kind of discriminatory and hate-filled word based on someone’s genetic makeup (hey, kind of like having a different skin color or being gay!) that’s okay to throw around without regard for the consequences. ‘Cause “if people are using “retard” when there aren’t any disabled people in the room, they’re doubtless using “faggot” when there aren’t any gay people in the room”, right?

48. Well, damn. I think OSA just made a fantastic point there, Dan.

    Care to respond? How is this different, exactly?

49. Regarding the first letter about the married man in open relationship. I think Dan hits the nail on the head, but don’t forget about the fact that in your open relationship you could possibly be spreading cooties from one woman to another instead of being a married guy with one outside relationship and a lower possiblility of cooties.

50. Regarding the first letter about the married man in open relationship. I think Dan hit the nail on the head, but don’t forget about the fact that in your open relationship you could possibly be spreading cooties from one woman to another instead of being a married guy with one outside relationship and a lower possiblility of cooties.

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