I’m a straight college guy, age 21, and I share a house with some buddies and a couple. This couple has been together for four years. They’re both quite sexual, but she’s got more libido than he does. I’ve got a big sex drive, too. Both of them have stated an openness to polyamorous situations. She started flirting with me, and flirting turned into no-sex threesomes with her and her BF every few nights.

I’m perfectly fine with poly, or I wouldn’t be doing this, but it feels a bit awkward fingering her or sucking on her nipples while her boyfriend is in the room, or even the same bed. Both of us guys are straight and have no desire to see the other naked, so there’s none of that going on. I’ve got no beef with guys who like beef, but being in a sexual situation with another guy—like the one going on here—makes me uncomfortable. And anyway, I feel like he’s the “primary” one, the one she loves and kisses, so I move over whenever he shows interest. This is reinforced because she said that she didn’t feel comfortable kissing other guys—although fingering is fine (?)—and I get the impression that he’s not entirely happy that I’m cuddling and/or fingering his girlfriend while he plays Dawn of War five feet away from their bed.

I’m fine with being the “secondary” guy. But I’d much rather have some privacy if we—meaning me and her—are gonna try to get each other off, particularly if this arrangement of ours should progress to actual sex. But this is tough, since there’s nowhere else in the house to go other than their room. Incidentally, we haven’t told our other friends/housemates about this, although they could probably put two and two together; she screams in orgasm, and half an hour later I say good night and go back down to my room.

Any advice for making the situation more comfortable for all involved?

Can’t Think Of A Clever Name

You’re fingering her, you’re sucking her tits, you’re getting her off (screaming orgasms induced dicklessly), she’s getting you off (your orgasms induced somehow or other)—which means, CTOACN, that this can’t be described as a “no-sex” arrangement. You’re not having vaginal intercourse, you’re not kissing the girl, but you’re having sex, and a lot of it.

But I wouldn’t slap a 10-dollar word like “polyamorous” on what you’re doing. You may be in a polyamorous relationship someday—with this couple, with some other couple—but all you’re really doing at the moment is “messing around.”

Okay, CTOACN, it sounds like this girl is pretty up front about what she’s comfortable doing—no kissing, no vaginal intercourse (for you)—and clear about her boundaries. You need to be similarly assertive. Tell them both that you’re not comfortable messing around while he’s in the room. So instead of playing Dawn of War while you two mess around, her boyfriend could head to the library, go for a walk, do some reading in the communal space of your shared house, or—hey—go play Dawn of War in your room for a while.

If he balks, CTOACN, then you may want to reconsider the assumptions you’ve made about him. You’re not comfortable with any hint of guy-on-guy, but he may want to be in the room while you’re messing around with his girlfriend because he digs that hint. I’m not saying that he’s bi, or that he wants to get with you, as the kids were only too recently saying—but I’m not saying he isn’t bi or doesn’t want to get with you, either. I guess what I’m saying is…

Considering (1) his presence every time you’re messing around with her (surely the library, the living room, or your room would’ve occurred to him if he were uncomfortable being in the same room while you fingered O’Donnelled his girlfriend), (2) the limitations she’s placed on the kind of sex she’ll have with you, and (3) his tendency to suddenly “show interest” after you’ve been messing around with his girlfriend (at which point you “move over” and, presumably, out), I’m thinking this girl’s boyfriend is into cuckolding-lite.

Not that there’s anything wrong with that, of course. But it could mean asking for quality time alone with his girlfriend would bring the messing around to an end.

IT GETS BETTER: Last week, I wrote about Billy Lucas, a 15-year-old kid in Indiana who took his own life after enduring years of bullying for being gay. Billy didn’t identify as gay and may not have been gay. But the consequences of anti-gay bullying—whether the kid being harassed is gay or closeted or just different—are often the same: isolation, pain, despair, and suicide.

After last week’s column went to press, I learned about another teenager—this one openly gay—who recently took his own life. Cody J. Barker was a 17-year-old high-school student in Shiocton, Wisconsin. Cody was a cyclist and a gardener and a Lady Gaga fan who had planned to start a gay-straight student alliance at his high school this fall. “He really cared about making schools a safe place for students,” a friend of Cody’s told the Wisconsin Gazette. “That wasn’t always his own experience with school.”

Billy Lucas in Indiana, Cody Barker in Wisconsin, Justin Aaberg in Minnesota—these three boys and countless other LGBT kids have committed suicide because they couldn’t picture a future for themselves.

That’s why my boyfriend and I launched the It Gets Better Project, a slightly grand name for a YouTube channel. We made a short video about our lives—the harassment we endured in school, the full and rewarding lives we enjoy now—and invited other LGBT adults to make and upload videos about their lives. The response has been completely overwhelming: thousands of members, hundreds of thousands of views, and more than 100 videos from people all over the world sharing their stories, all in an effort to let bullied and isolated and unhappy LGBT kids know that it gets better.

There are a couple of similar and ongoing projects that deserve a shout-out: the amazing and deeply moving I’m from Driftwood (www.imfromdriftwood.com) documents “true stories by gay people all over.” Please check it out. And there’s a large archive of YouTube videos from LGBT teenagers talking about their own coming-out experiences at www.tinyurl
.com/2fuwffh. And if any LGBT teenagers reading this are contemplating suicide, please visit the Trevor Project (www.thetrevorproject.org), a suicide-prevention project for gay teenagers, or call its 24-hour hotline at 866-488-7386.

And here’s a thought for people who are thinking about making videos for the It Gets Better Project: Many of the early submitted videos focused on something many gay adults have in common with gay kids—our experiences with being bullied. The pain we endured as kids should be touched on. But it would be great to see more videos that give gay young people a picture of the lives they could make for themselves if they just hang in there. LGBT kids who don’t know any LGBT adults need to see—with their own eyes—that gay adults lead happy and rewarding lives. So if you decide to make a video—and I hope that you do—don’t just share your pain. Share your joy. Give ’em hope. Save a life. www.youtube.com/itgetsbetterproject

mail@savagelove.net

105 replies on “Savage Love”

  1. This feels very AA. In a good way. We are taught to share our ‘experience, strength, and hope’. To tell what it was like, what happened, and what it’s like now. Simple. Life saving.

  2. The project is great, I’ve plugged it on facebook (to the dismay of my fundie relatives, haha fuck you guys).

    But I wish the column had more substance, too.

  5. I’m a het who was bullied mercilessly, along with his best friend, in seventh and eighth grade. We weren’t gay, we’re not gay, but everyone decided we were and we never heard the end of it.

    I would like to add my statement to the project.

  6. Sorry, but I’ve got to disagree that this is not polyamory. For me, polyamory is about fluidity, and the freedom to define one’s relationships for oneself. The only absolute is consent: if it’s not with the fully informed consent of all parties involved, it’s not polyamory.

    He is sexually involved with a woman who is in a committed relationship with another man, with the full consent of all involved. Sounds like a poly relationship to me.

  7. I am usually cringing and laughing from reading your article. Today is a first, I got goosebumps. Good work, Dan.

    In memory of those who have taken their lives, it would be great if you could leave room at the end of Savage Love for an It Gets Better Moment, asking readers to write in with something positive about their queer lives.

  8. I have so much love for you Dan. What a beautiful outreach effort. I really believe that you will save some lives. God bless you for your work. I know you don’t believe in God, but in my humble opinion, if He’s up there, I think He believes in you.

  10. @10, Fair point, but I have to say, if ever they would have an opportunity to be reached by a loving gay community, it’s on the internet. In other words, some you’ll never reach, but this is the best shot they have for that. Maybe sneaking on in a library at school and reading a column once a week will make the difference. Why is it no one in these videos talks about the amount of ass they’re going to get? I mean, sentimentality is good, but let’s face it, when you were a teen, wouldn’t the concept of orgiastic sex keep you going? Maybe that’s just me.

  12. Thank you, Dan, for starting It Gets Better. I think outreach to young GLBT people is really important, because the middle and high school years can really suck if you’re “different” in any way. Thanks for doing something to make it suck less, at the very least.

  13. It Gets Better Project is a wonderful. And, not just for those young GLBTQ people out there, but for all young people. Good work, Dan and Terry. And a thank you to all who have made videos for the project.

  15. @6: I’ve had the same thought. I’m straight but endured being called “faggot” all through high school–and this was in a supposedly “progressive” city. Dan, do you want us heteros to submit videos too? I can see valid arguments for and against it.

    @7: I agree: “poly”=multiple; “amory”=loving. And the consent of all parties is implicit by contrast to “cheating”/”adultery”. She’s getting sex or “lovin'” from more than one person. So it’s polyamory.

  16. ABC News has a story on a Rutgers freshman who was secretly filmed/broadcast onto the internet while engaging in a homosexual act who then committed suicide by jumping off of the GW bridge.

    I can only hope that the perpetrators are prosecuted to the full extent of the law (good luck) but at least they are both 18 and will have this crime on their records for the rest of their life AND that It Gets Better will help other teens (many of whom may be just starting to embrace their sexuality) to not feel like their only recourse is to end their life.

  17. I am pretty sure that this is not polyamorous because the relationship does not seem to extend beyond sexual (emotional, spritual, etc). It seems like the writer is being used in the same way that a sex toy is used. Just a thought!

  19. “Dyke”, as I was commonly referred to in high school was/is the incorrect epithet. If I have to identify, I use bisexual. Dan, how should I support ‘It Gets Better’ without putting my face all over the internet? (I am an unemployed teacher looking for work, and outing myself could really screw my job prospects) Suggestions, anyone?

  20. I guess you don’t realize how “progressive” your enviornment is until you see that many other people have it much worse. I had a friend Kevin who lived in my neigborhood and we attended HS together. Kevin is and has alway been gay. He was and is drop dead hansome. Women would drool and just flock to Kevin. Since Kevin attracted so many women it was always good to have him around. Kevin had many brothers and he could fight. Gay don’t equal weak!! Kev was one of the guys he just happened to like boys. Black folks have a way of separating the person from their sexuality. In many black churches it seems par for the course to have a openly gay chior director but preach firey homophobic sermons.

  22. My definition of polyamory is that there’s emotional attachment involved. This usually causes heated debate when it comes up, but the (not-just-sex) poly community (iirc) usually sides with “dating and emotions falls under polyamory, if it’s just sex it’s called swinging”. The swinging community sometimes wants to include themselves as a type of poly.

    @20: There’s one up there already with two teachers who have their faces covered, and tell their story with a series of written-on cards that they flip through.

  23. 11: Ass is incredibly tempting when you’re a teen, but when you’re being abused, the biggest priority is getting it to stop. It Gets Better is exactly what these kids need to hear.

    20: You had the bandanna-faced teachers, you can use a mask if you like, or you can focus on “high school was shit, things are better now” angle. Although personally, I think that if you still think you have to hide who you are, that undermines the basic message of the project.

    CTOACN: The rules placed on everything and the guy’s bad vibes make me think this is a newbie poly relationship that’s full of newbie poly mistakes. Lots of people who are down with the idea of fucking/dating other people themselves don’t feel quite so hot when the reality of their partner dating/fucking other people kicks in.

    Watch both of them. If he passive-aggressively cockblocks you, or if she passive-aggressively queen bees you, that’s nature’s way of saying that this isn’t going to work out. Get out until the two of them figure themselves out first.

  25. I saw you in Newsweek – congrats! Right at the top of the scale 🙂
    What a great idea. I loved the video from the repentant bully that now does charity work in the Castro, and a hundred others.
    Thanks again, Dan and Terry.

  29. Saw the link on NPR and visited the itgetsbetterproject. What a moving and accessible idea. I loved the intimacy of hearing your and Terry’s story. Please continue to share with readers of your blog, and beyond, ways that we can help young people of all sexual orientations.

  30. Followed the NPR story to the itgetsbetter videos. What a moving and accessible project. I enjoyed hearing the intimacy of your and Terry’s story. I hope it inspires others. Please continue to share with readers beyond your blog ways that we can help young people of all sexual orientations feel accepted.

  31. I’m with 24. If you have to hide your face you shouldn’t participate in the It Gets Better project. That sends the message that it didn’t really get better.

  32. Unfortunate circumstances for this comment but I keep forgetting to write one…

    Dan! I live in Louisville via Chicago via Seattle via Boston. I used to wait on you at Boom Noodle actually

    Point is.. the advice columnist here is egregious. So, so, so, so, so lame. My girlfriend and I miss you (she’s from here but had you in the Dig in Boston and Reader in Chicago). I know we can read you online but it’s not the same.

    As you know, Kentucky could use you. Save these heathens!

  34. Dan, it’s getting to the point where there is little reason to read Savage Love anymore. Just continue to cut and paste your Letters of the Day…

  35. Sadly, people can’t seem to learn this lesson. Just today a body was fished out of the Hudson; a freshman at Rutgers jumped to his death after two students hid a camera in his room, videotaped him having an encounter with another young man, and then broadcast it on their blog and tweeted about it.

  36. I am writing to convey my profound admiration for the “It Gets Better” project. Ingenius and profound, even if it is thirty (or one thousand) years too late!

    I just forwarded the cornerstone video(Dan & Terry’s) to my 58 year old mother for approval and to aid this movement in going viral.

    At present, there is one openly gay person in my family; my cousin, a rather successful Nurse Practicioner; and whom has been in a very happy relationship for (to my knowledge) 12 years(queue jealousy).

    Regardless of the degree of saturation of LGBT in the media or my family; I give credit to my mother as the one person who established my cognitive acceptance of ‘non traditional’ families/lifestyles.

    A brief personal history: the family on my father’s side are devout Catholics (including myself and the aforementioned cousin).
    At any rate, I was taught acceptance at an early age. Born in 1980, I was caught admist in a sea of ‘weirdness” – our country’s contagious involvement in the eternal MidEast conflict and the Advent of the AIDS plague were the news headlines of my youth. My grandmother passed away three years ago with nary a bad feeling towards any member of my family due to this unified love and acceptance.

    In this respect, I am proud to say that the majority of my family are EXTREMELY ACCEPTING of my cousin’s and other pursueants of an ‘alternative lifestyle.”

    It has been my family’s influence that created an open-minded individual in myself and my sibling. Since an early age, I have been titled “wierd,” or different. It may be due to the fact that I am a friendly introvert, or any combinations of various reasons (according to Myers-Briggs I am an INTP).

    In conclusion, I would like to state that I am rather jealous of all people whom are able to categorize themselves. The reason is that I am yet unable to find my fit within a specific group of people.

    Alas, the acceptance of all differences is growing in this country, whether it be race or sexuality. So I am hopeful that people like myself (whom appear to be “normal”) and those who have marked differences, are accepted and welcomed in our society without reserve.

    Post Script- I would like to thank Terry (and everyone else) for posting an “It Gets Better” video. It was AWESOME to see you both talk about how you met and your family. I am a hopeless romantic.

  37. @26 “Overwrought teen queer suicide saga”? Yes, you’re absolutely right, let’s have more letters from people wondering how to get their girlfriends to pee on them, and enough with this suicide prevention stuff! God, saving lives is just so…monotonous.

  38. Why have I just met you?!? Might have something to do with living in TexAss for the last 7 years. We connect on so many levels… well, other than the fact that I have a vag. I have been listening nonstop to your podcasts! Amazing work…

    A friend noticed my rantings on facebook about all the recent suicides and suggested that I watch some videos from the It Gets Better Project. I am going to share some of those videos in training entry-level-therapists for working with sexual minorities. That and the first 5 minutes of your podcast about the project.

    My dissertation is on bisexuality and your callers are courageous in opening up to you! Thank you for your work… I am so glad that you are out there!! I am going to share you with EVERYONE…. now don’t you feel like the dirty slut! <3 <3 <3 Stephany

  39. @39 *shrug* I read this column for entertainment, not activism.

    Suicide sucks, yes. It fucks up families, leaves friends wondering if they could have helped if they’d only known, makes everyone who loved the deceased feel hollow and empty. I get it.

    Further, I’m for gay marriage and gay adoption and against teen suicide, straight or gay or whatever. But I don’t read this column for two to three weeks of teen suicide PSAs, I read it because I want to know about the dude who caught his dick in a bear trap in service to some memorable, esoteric kink.

    I doubt Dan’s going to hemmorhage readers doing this, but if there are any other mostly vanilla straight dudes reading this, I’m pretty sure they’ll get tired of it too.

  40. @39–By the way…

    You may think suicide prevention columns are much more important than peeing on people columns, but you’re wrong. I’m fairly sure most of the people who read Savage Love in their local alternative rag are straight, if only because most people in general are straight. Demographically speaking, we’re the ones who put food on Dan’s table. When he panders exclusively to his gay base with columns about how they can make videos for at-risk gay teens while pointedly excluding those breeders who pay his rent, and in fact devotes the majority of the space in his column to evangelize gay suicide prevention for two weeks in a row, we breeders get bored and offended, and eventually we head for the exits.

    You want to keep us happy. Keep that in mind. If not for us, this column would have a much smaller fanbase and a whole lot less political power.

  41. I’m sure it never occurred to Dan that there are no straight people in the world with any interest in preventing suicides that are brought on by anti-gay harassment. It was kind to point that out to him.

    And, of course, Dan was obviously lying when he pointed out that straight people are often the victims of homophobic bullying, and when he said that one of the most recent victims to turn to suicide was very possibly straight.

  42. @43 If I’m told I’m not welcome to participate in an activist-type activity whose goals I and every other right-thinking breeder share and whose targets I would personally physically defend, I get irritated and a little offended. That goes double for an activity that’s taking up two weeks of my Thursday entertainment.

  46. I’m a 35 year old straight male, and I am heartbroken over Clementi’s suicide. Just absolutely heartbroken.

    This bothered me when I woke up this morning. I’m just so confused and angry.

    I thought things were getting better for homosexuals in the US. I suppose I’ll consider this my wake up call.

  47. @18 & @23

    I really hate the party line that insists that “polyamory is about having a spiritual/emotional connection with more than one person.” Yes, it can involve that. But it also can involve casual sex (I see “swinging” as a mostly heteronormative subset that falls under the larger umbrella of “polyamory”). For me, the salient factor is fluidity… I’m free to define my relationships in a way that works for me, and my partners.

    If we are trying to promote tolerance and sex-positivity, it does not behoove us to distinguish casual sex as less than committed sex. And these things themselves are not discrete categories, but fluid and changeable.

  48. @41/42 Well, I’m a “straight breeder” just like you, and I haven’t once found myself bored or offended. Appalled, outraged, sad, helpless….but not bored. So, as a “vanilla straight dude,” you’re not getting your weekly dose of freaky sex stories? That’s tragic. And your “I’m pro-gay marriage, etc.” is cool, if it weren’t followed by, “I’m so bored with gay suicide.” I don’t see how you can separate the two. If this site/Dan’s column loses readers like you, and yet manages to prevent even one kid’s suicide, then I’d say that would definitely be worth it.

    And: “You may think suicide prevention columns are much more important than peeing on people columns, but you’re wrong.”
    When you say “important,” you’re talking about ad revenue. That’s not the same meaning I would attach to “important” in this case.

  49. I disagree with those who say polyamory covers casual relationships – although it can. The problem is that polyamory has been somewhat co-opted by people who want another name for “messing around without considering anyone else’s feelings”. Whether poly sex is casual or committed, there should be respect, and yes, caring. “Amor” means love, not “hey at least I don’t have to pay for a hooker”.

    Most of the regular folks I meet who claim to be poly are just the same old horndogs as before, they get mad if they don’t get laid the same night, and they don’t value the companionship or feelings of their partners UNLESS they’re getting laid whenever they want it. The old fashioned word for this was “cad” and it applies to women as well as men. They view sex as a commodity rather than as a gift.

    For me at least polyamory, like some other forms of love, implies acceptance and even gratitude. That could mean acceptance of other people as human beings, whose company is valuable at all times regardless of activity. So I could be in a “poly” relationship with someone where we rarely had sex. But for most of us on the street outside of these poly workshops, sex seems to be the MAIN or ONLY component of the connection.

  50. @Happy the Homophobe (#41, 42): There are a lot of us nominally “straight” readers who appreciate Dan using his wide audience to further social-justice causes every once in a while (like putting out spam hits on homophobic schools). You think the sex/relationship advice is more important; power to you. But please don’t presume to speak for all of “us”, the “mostly vanilla straight dudes” reading the column. As Canuck point out, some (many?) of us are not getting bored.

    (#44): What an excellent example of assumed heteronormative, patriarchal privilege! Two things here – first, I don’t recall you being dis-invited to participate in It Gets Better. I, for one, have chosen to not post a video for fear of co-opting a discursive space intended for gay adults to tell gay teens about the fabulous gay lives they can have after high school, but there are also videos from straight people who were themselves bullied or were/are allies of kids who were/are bullied, one of which Dan featured on Slog. Second, while you might “get irritated and a little offended” at what you perceive to be a space that is not including you, you have to understand that as a straight man, institutionalized systems of power operate to privilege you. This is probably most of the reason you feel offended – people generally don’t tell you “No, you can’t participate,” in contrast to all of the persons belonging to marked social groups, who are regularly pushed out of various social fora. Ultimately I agree that any sort of divisive tactic with respect to groups or identities (Identity Politics) is not ideal, but until we dismantle the INSTITUTIONAL vectors of oppression, identity politics and group-only discursive spaces for the oppressed are necessary as some of the few methods for combating these institutional practices.

    Get the fuck over yourself: lots of people hear “No” every day and manage to deal. You can handle it every once in a while.

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