I heard an interview with you about your It Gets Better campaign. I was saddened and frustrated with your comments regarding people of faith and their perpetuation of bullying. As someone who loves the Lord and does not support gay marriage, I can honestly say I was heartbroken to hear about the young man who took his own life.
If your message is that we should not judge people based on their sexual preference, how do you justify judging entire groups of people for any other reason (including their faith)? There is no part of me that took any pleasure in what happened to that young man.
To that end, to imply that I would somehow encourage my children to mock, hurt, or intimidate another person for any reason is completely unfounded and offensive. Being a follower of Christ is, above all things, a recognition that we are all imperfect, fallible, and in desperate need of a savior. We cannot believe that we are better or more worthy than other people.
Please consider your viewpoint, and please be more careful with your words in the future.
L.R.
I’m sorry your feelings were hurt by my comments.
No, wait. I’m not. Gay kids are dying. So let’s try to keep things in perspective: Fuck your feelings.
A question: Do you “support” atheist marriage? Interfaith marriage? Divorce and remarriage? All are legal, all go against Christian and/or traditional ideas about marriage, and yet there’s no “Christian” movement to deny marriage rights to atheists or people marrying outside their respective faiths or people divorcing and remarrying. Why the hell not?
Sorry, L.R., but so long as you support the denial of marriage rights to same-sex couples, it’s clear that you do believe that some people—straight people—are “better or more worthy” than others.
And—sorry—but you are partly responsible for the bullying and physical violence being visited on vulnerable LGBT children. The kids of people who see gay people as sinful or damaged or disordered and unworthy of full civil equality—even if those people strive to express their bigotry in the politest possible way (at least when they happen to be addressing a gay person)—learn to see gay people as sinful, damaged, disordered, and unworthy. And while there may not be any gay adults or couples where you live, or at your church, or in your workplace, I promise you that there are gay and lesbian children in your schools. And while you can only attack gays and lesbians at the ballot box, nice and impersonally, your children have the option of attacking actual gays and lesbians, in person, in real time.
Real gay and lesbian children. Not political abstractions, not “sinners.” Gay and lesbian children.
Try to keep up: The dehumanizing bigotries that fall from the lips of “faithful Christians,” and the lies about us that vomit out from the pulpits of churches that “faithful Christians” drag their kids to on Sundays, give your children license to verbally abuse, humiliate, and condemn the gay children they encounter at school. And many of your children—having listened to Mom and Dad talk about how gay marriage is a threat to family and how gay sex makes their magic sky friend Jesus cry—feel justified in physically abusing the LGBT children they encounter in their schools. You don’t have to explicitly “encourage [your] children to mock, hurt, or intimidate” queer kids. Your encouragement—along with your hatred and fear—is implicit. It’s here, it’s clear, and we’re seeing the fruits of it: dead children.
Oh, and those same dehumanizing bigotries that fill your straight children with hate? They fill your gay children with suicidal despair. And you have the nerve to ask me to be more careful with my words?
Did that hurt to hear? Good. But it couldn’t have hurt nearly as much as what was said and done to Asher Brown and Justin Aaberg and Billy Lucas and Cody Barker and Seth Walsh—day in, day out for years—at schools filled with bigoted little monsters created not in the image of a loving God, but in the image of the hateful and false “followers of Christ” they call Mom and Dad.
I am engaged to a man whose sexual orientation is somewhat confusing to me.
A few months ago, I discovered transgender porn on his computer. When I asked him about it, he said he just watches all kinds of porn “just to watch it.” That sounded like total bullshit to me—and it was proved to be total bullshit when I discovered that he watches ONLY this type of porn. I also recently discovered a letter he had composed a few years back to another man asking him to “hook up.” The letter also states that my fiancé had a girlfriend, and since “discretion is very important” to him, he could only hook up when she was out of town.
I can deal with somebody being bisexual. I have bisexual fantasies myself. However, I can’t deal with someone lying to himself and to me, and being unfaithful. Sadly, I can’t really make this guy confess to me that he is bi. When I tried, he simply told me, “You are so blind.” What does that mean?
I really don’t want to dump the guy. I love him. My question is, I guess, what the fuck do I do? I feel like crazy bitch supreme trying to get this out of him, but it’s impossible not to think about.
Bitchy Girlfriend
There’s nothing to be confused about: Your fiancé is very clearly bisexual. Gay men just aren’t into chicks-with-dicks porn; that’s a genre that appeals exclusively to straight/straightish/bi male viewers.
So why can he be open about his cocksuckery with a complete stranger—that dude he sent the letter that you “discovered”—but not with you?
It’s a tired cliché, I realize, and I shy away from it for that reason, but in this case the shoe fits: Your fiancé has a bad case of the internalized homophobias. He finds it easier to be open with someone he doesn’t care about and is unlikely to see ever again precisely because he doesn’t care about that person and isn’t going to see him again. If you or the other people in his life he’s close to knew, he fears you would see him as damaged or inferior because that’s how he sees himself.
So, yep, a bad case of the internalized homophobias. He’s not entirely responsible for contracting this malady—our homophobic culture is the disease vector here—but, as an adult, he is responsible for working through it, for overcoming it, for being truthful with himself and the people he claims to love.
If he can’t be honest with you—the snoop he claims to love—about his sexual orientation, and if being cheated on is a deal breaker for you (and he will cheat on you), don’t marry him.
I’m a loud fucker, just like the partner of the woman who wrote in recently. With my consent, my partner uses a pillow to dampen my screams, so I don’t have to worry I’ll piss off the neighbors.
Lesbians Do Scream
It’s all fun and games—loud fun, ear-splitting games—until someone accidentally asphyxiates a screamer. But thanks for sharing, LDS.
@200: Is overweight Canadian Jane smart, funny, etc.? Then yes. If I’m not fucking someone, I don’t give a crap what they look like. All I care about is whether they are fun to be around and whether they treat me and other people decently.
But I don’t think I’m obligated to have that approach. If fundamentalist Christians really get under my skin (and they actually don’t– my little sister is an evangelical), then I think it’s OK to remove myself from situations involving fundamentalist Christians. From the very many anti-religious comments on this thread, I do not think this is a controversial opinion.
As to your two strategies, I agree with (1) completely, and I agree with the first part of (2) as it relates to assaults. I’m unwilling to nail a kid to the wall for verbal comments, at least the first time. I would definitely intervene in the event of a pattern of verbal abuse, though.
@200: Is overweight Canadian Jane smart, funny, etc.? Then yes. If I’m not fucking someone, I don’t give a crap what they look like. All I care about is whether they are fun to be around and whether they treat me and other people decently.
But I don’t think I’m obligated to have that approach. If fundamentalist Christians really get under my skin (and they actually don’t– my little sister is an evangelical), then I think it’s OK to remove myself from situations involving fundamentalist Christians. From the very many anti-religious comments on this thread, I do not think this is a controversial opinion.
As to your two strategies, I agree with (1) completely, and I agree with the first part of (2) as it relates to assaults. I’m unwilling to nail a kid to the wall for verbal comments, at least the first time. I would definitely intervene in the event of a pattern of verbal abuse, though.
It seems absurd that I have to make a post about how great you are.
I mean you only state the obvious.
Do you get paid for that?
Remarkably though, you seem to have few competitors.
It is so important to try to shake and wake up the “good” Christian people who tell gay children implicitly that they are dishonorable.
PC language can’t obscure that.
And some children choose death because of what these “good” Christian people tell us and their children.
Thanks again Dan for stating the obvious.
Everyone covered this very nicely. If IHSN still feels like their points remain valid, someone ought to feel free to pore over their text and find all of the inconsistencies in logic and redefinitions of the debate, and lay them kindly out for IHSN.
If, that is, they think IHSN isn’t a troll and is open to reason (questionable items, both).
I feel myself that I have already given more than too much energy and time to this juvenile vampire-troll.
I agree, Dan. It is high fucking time that we stop feeling like we have to play nice with bigots. I’m so tired of people for whom I’ve voted bending over backward to make “people of faith” feel OK with the gays. As a gay man who recently moved from Utah to Olympia, I can tell you that the problem is even worse there. So many open minded people there trick themselves into believing that they are somehow above it all by accepting the ignorance of their neighbors. They say, “We should respect their religion, and we should never be caught in a situation where we are challenging their beliefs.” BULLSHIT. It’s time for people with REAL and TRUE morals to stand up and STOP BEING NICE TO BIGOTS. Tell them that they are wrong. Tell them that their children will be baffled top hear their views in 10 years. Tell them that it is absolutely WRONG, even from a Christian perspective, to judge people as they do. Be MILITANT! Why is is OK for other minorities to aggressively pursue their cause, but not us?!?!
Hey Dan – LOVE the column. Want an additional BF??
@201: You’re right. We always sit around and pontificate on bullshit. Well fuck that: I just donated $100 to the Trevor Project. Anyone else with me?
I’m not saying throwing money at the problem is the solution. But it’s a good deal more useful than my postings today. 🙂
Hey Dan – great column. Do you want an additional BF?
just because someone SAYS they are a christian, flies their christian banner and invokes the name of their lord, jesus christ,
DOES
NOT
MEAN
THEY
ARE
R E A L L Y
CHRISTIANS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
seriously. f’d up power hungry misanthropes use any excuse that works to justify their power. and what “source” of power could be more all-encompasing than the source of EVERYTHING!?!?
don’t be blinded.
the historical person of jesus is believed by faithful and non-believers alike to have actually lived… and he said “you will know them by their fruits.” matthew 7:16
if you aren’t familiar with this bible passage, i suggest you google it… and you will find out what christianity ACTUALLY says about how you can tell a christian from “other people.” (wink) this passage is what christians have been told by jesus himself about false prophets who are wolves in sheep’s clothing, pretending to be christians while, all the while, sowing evil in the world.
if they were christians, they would speak compassionately to those they thought were lost.
just saying.
@151: Dude, midget is not the preferred nomenclature. Little person or person of short stature, please.
@209; IHSN
I will match that.
Any others?
Let’s leave our intellectual Rubik’s Cubes at the coffee shops..’kay?
I think we need to clear up the definition of Homophobia. Homo refers to an individual who is attracted to the same sex and Phobia is defined in the dictionary as “An irrational, intense, and persistent fear”. Wiki explains Homophobia as “a range of negative attitudes and feelings towards lesbian, gay, bisexual, queer, and in some cases transgender and intersex people”, no doubt in response to a certain fear, which is different for all haters. However, by definition, hating gay people for who they are because you were told they are wrong is blind and utter prejudice, not Homophobia, and not backed by any actual fact. It’s really no different from someone who hates black people, or another who hates fat people. There are distinguishable facts to be considered.
Believing that gay marriage is wrong because it threatens family life is Homophobia. Believing that gay people are the cause of AIDS is Homophobia. Believing that the guy next door you slept with last night will turn you gay is Homophobia. This isn’t in any actual response to anyone here, I just felt like that term is thrown around too lightly. Homophobia is an extreme, prejudice is what most people feel towards gay people.
@ 137: While i’m at it I might as well define what Religion means.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/r…
Read 2 and 3. Following a religion means you believe in the practices and morals of it’s rules. I laugh out FUCKING loud at people who claim to be “non-practicing Christian” or any other religion. What is that suppose to mean? Ok, so you believe in God but you don’t agree with Christianity…that is possible, but that also means you’re not Christian, and claiming to be so is contradicting and hypocritical in your faith.
For this I turn to the definition of Agnosticism, which can be summed and stupefied into the following sentence: Someone who believes in the higher power but the inability to truly understand it. IE, they disagree with religion, but agree in the maker.
I’ve found that there’s a large portion of the christian population that’s simply hung up on semantics.
They can’t get past the word marriage. It’s defined in their head as one man one woman, and has connotations of the sacred and the church. It’s been one of the basic assumptions of our culture for centuries.
Ask someone you know that is a christian and against gay marriage a simple question; should gays be allowed partnership rights in hospitals when one partner is sick or dying?
If they have a shred of human compassion, they will say of course. The ones that disagree are your tried and true bigots and may be safely clubbed.
Pretty much the same question can be phrased about every other aspect of civil rights in regard to marriage, e.i. inheritance, joint property, taxes, etc, with the same result.
I’m of the opinion that if they gay rights movement had started out demanding “partnership rights” or “civil unions” or really anything besides “gay marriage”, it would have gotten national acceptance five or ten years ago.
I’ve found that there’s a large portion of the christian population that’s simply hung up on semantics.
They can’t get past the word marriage. It’s defined in their head as one man one woman, and has connotations of the sacred and the church. It’s been one of the basic assumptions of our culture for centuries.
Ask someone you know that is a christian and against gay marriage a simple question; should gays be allowed partnership rights in hospitals when one partner is sick or dying?
If they have a shred of human compassion, they will say of course. The ones that disagree are your tried and true bigots and may be safely clubbed.
Pretty much the same question can be phrased about every other aspect of civil rights in regard to marriage, e.i. inheritance, joint property, taxes, etc, with the same result.
I’m of the opinion that if they gay rights movement had started out demanding “partnership rights” or “civil unions” or really anything besides “gay marriage”, it would have gotten national acceptance five or ten years ago.
I fully agree purveyor of savage love. The writer of the letter may have aspirations to be a good christian soul but you have called them out on the reality of their world view and the kind of hatred it spawns.
They deny the right of other people to be different and equal.
With the arrogance of those that think fro their limited human perspective that they know best.
And yes that spawns the lack of empathy, the holstility and the murder. Ultimately thats what it does.
Cheers, A
Dan–Re: our old friend,the homosexual agenda. Where’s my copy? I mailed you people the box tops!
Bravo Dan! I literally stood and cheered in my kitchen on reading your first reply. Saving it for not-too-distant future and sadly-all-too-frequent use. Very well said.
And moreover, it’s not just the gay and lesbian children who suffer, but all children the self-roghteous bullies perceive as perhaps being gay or lesbian, or even just different enough in some other way (e.g. too weird, too fat, too smart, too agnostic/atheistic/Jewish etc.) to harass into suicidality. I’ve known plenty of them too.
Hey Kudos to Dan for his fight against bullying.
Will it have an effect on bullying?
Yes, for a while.
Until the backlash happens,
So much of what he said, like if you are against gay marriage, you are for bullying, or the unconscious cause of bullying, is just not true.
First, he seems just of guilty as his writer as turning people into abstracts. The children of Christians turn into hateful little monsters. ..
The gay teens who are innocent victims of that hate…
Are not many gays teens bullies themselves?
Are not many children of Christians victims of bullying?
And, when the furor settles down and people start to look around and realize that the modern view on homosexuality is based on a falsehood. That gay men and women are born that way. True that we are all born with basic instincts and in some people those instincts may lead to an attraction to the same sex. But gay identity, and gay activity and gay relationships are a combination of culture, social norms, upbringing, experience, etc. And of course this is true of everyone not just gay people. There really is no such thing as a gay person, just a person that has a certain pattern of behavior. Gay identity is a useful falsehood, but useful none the less.
The basic fact is that men and women are different, these differences are due to billions of years of evolution, and that only sex between a man and woman can make babies and perpetuate the human race. Which is no small feat.
And the fact that a relationship between two men or two women is just different than that between a man and a woman. Is the relationship less than, no. Most gay couples I know are stronger than the average heterosexual couple because the relationship is based solely on choice not on societal norms and on a personal affinity for each other, not as a basis for child rearing. Maybe they just realize they have to work on it harder. But I also know a lot of middle-aged gay men who have frequent anonymous sex with strangers and I am pretty sure that the average heterosexual man of the same age is not doing the same thing.
This whole thing of thinking that homosexuality is just about changing the pronoun, of changing ‘he’ to ‘she’ or vice versa, is just wrong. It is a lie.
That said, I am not against gay marriage. I think it is a useful experiment. But it won’t change the face that marriage will always be traditionally between a man and a woman and the anything else will be an unusual alternative. I wish there was a way to recognize committed gay relationships without using the word “marriage” or ‘husband’ or ‘wife.’ we need a new word altogether. Some way to recognize gays unique contribution to civilization and to each other.
(Really it is marriage that is the problem. It should just be gotten rid of entirely. From now on marriage is forbidden to everyone…)
I wish there was a way to battle the intrinsic hate and homophobia of Christians without creating other falsehoods. Without having to call anyone who questions or does not support gay marriage a bigot. Maybe not. But I am 100% sure that kindness and compassion is ultimately the only solution.
(I didn’t realize you had to register first to have your comments show up. Pardon for the duplication)
Hey Kudos to Dan for his fight against bullying. I really mean that
I really think it have an effect on bullying at least for a while.
Until the backlash happens.
So much of what he said, like if you are against gay marriage, you are for bullying, or the unconscious cause of bullying, is just not true. And unless something is true, ultimately it will not have a lasting effect.
First, he seems just of guilty as his writer as turning people into abstracts.
That children of Christians turn into hateful little monsters. ..
That gay teens who are innocent victims of that hate…
Are not many gays teens bullies themselves?
Are not many children of Christians victims of bullying?
And, when the furor around marriage and gay rights settles down, people start to look around and realize that the modern view on homosexuality is based on a falsehood: That gay men and women are born that way. True that we are all born with basic instincts and in some people those instincts may lead to an attraction to the same sex. But gay identity, gay activity, and gay relationships are a combination of instinct and culture, social norms, upbringing, and personal experience. Of course this is true of everyone not just gay people. There really is no such thing as a gay person, just a person that has a certain pattern of behavior. Gay identity is a useful falsehood, but useful none the less.
The basic fact is that men and women are different, these differences are due to billions of years of evolution. Only sex between a man and woman can make babies and perpetuate the human race. Which is no small feat.
And the fact that a relationship between two men or two women is just different than that between a man and a woman. Is the relationship less than, no. Most gay couples I know are stronger than the average heterosexual couple because the relationship is based solely on choice not on societal norms and on a personal affinity for each other, not as a basis for child rearing. Maybe they just realize they have to work on it harder. But I also know a lot of middle-aged gay men who have frequent anonymous sex with strangers and I am pretty sure that the average heterosexual man of the same age is not doing the same thing.
This whole thing of thinking that homosexuality is just about changing the pronoun, of changing ‘he’ to ‘she’ or vice versa, is just wrong. It is a lie.
That said, I am not against gay marriage. I think it is a useful experiment. But it won’t change the face that marriage will always be traditionally between a man and a woman and that anything else will be an unusual alternative. I wish there was a way to recognize committed gay relationships without using the word “marriage” or ‘husband’ or ‘wife.’ we need a new word altogether. Some way to recognize gays unique contribution to civilization and to each other.
(Really it is marriage that is the problem. It should just be gotten rid of entirely. From now on marriage is forbidden to everyone…)
I wish there was a way to battle the hate and homophobia of Christians without creating other falsehoods. Without having to call anyone who questions or does not support gay marriage a bigot. Maybe not. But I am 100% sure that kindness and compassion is ultimately the only solution.
@BlackRose. I’m an atheist bleeding heart liberal and totally agree with you on a conceptual level.
However, it has been proven time and time again that Christians are more likely to give to charity and volunteer in international aid. Church donations from around the world have funded desperately needed hospitals and medical supplies in third world nations. For every gay teen who commits suicide from bullying, there are thousands of people in the world who are living and breathing only thanks to the tithe that Christians are obligated to give (10% of income).
Christians need to be more consistent with their so-called compassion, but I do think it’s unfair to say there are no “good” Christians. I’ve met Christians up to their knees in sewage trying to build a plumbing system for a village dying of malaria and dysentery. They did not believe in marriage equality…but can we really say they are bad? Is it that black and white?
Gay as gay can be, but love to watch me some T-gurl porn. Fantasize about getting fucked by a chick-with-dick.
Dan, I’m frustrated because I reposted that letter yesterday on my FB page and now it’s been deleted, but that’s not your problem. It’s Big Brother again..watching..anyway, In my post I asked that if somehow you had seen my letter, that I wish you would write that same (but even harsher) letter to Tom Prichard, the president of the Minnesota Family Council who for years has vilified the glbt community. He just oozes evil and sadly, years ago we used to be good friends.
I did appreciate what you said in response to the woman who was hurt by your words. I think I understood where she was coming from because I happen to be christian and also gay, but I’ve chosen to be involved in churches that are reconciled congregations who are welcoming of everyone including glbt individuals. Just to clarify, I think that there are Christian communities who truly do their best to act in a “christ-like” way and not let those in the upper hierarchy of the bigger church influence their individual churches. That being said, I think that too many people think that this is some sort of new phenomenon, this horrific bullying and suicides, but sadly it’s been happening forever and sadly, what we see in the news is just the tip of the iceberg. I think a huge issue that stands before us is the government not realizing that “don’t ask don’t tell” really institutionalizes the mentality that gays can’t be trusted, that we can’t be in a locker room with another man without jumping their bones, that we aren’t worthy enough to serve the country in this way. That lack of serious action on the part of this administration fuels the bullying and the whole “locker room” attitude. Bullying of our young people in schools and clubs completes it’s circle in the military and in the government. And it will continue and continue.
Sad but true.
“Magic sky friend jesus cry…”
LOVE IT Savage! i’m totally stealing that one.
thank you.
@128- Capricorn44- Its interesting how people only hear half the message. “Love your neighbor as yourself” and the Prodigal son particularly. -You cant love your neighbor until you love yourself- if you hate yourself, that is what you will do to others. I heard a priest say “you and I arent the Prodigal Son. We arent that BAD. Jesus message was for two groups- the ones who were oppressed by hatred, and those doing the hating. For the second group, the model was the elder brother. He thought he was better than the younger brother. He therefore, exempted himself from the banquet, i.e. heavan, because he couldnt believe that his Father would except the outcast. There few calling themselves Christian who embrace this core message of the man they claim to follow- prefering to dwell on his martyrdom.
I fell out of my chair this morning with your response!!!! ROCK THE FUCK ON— MY HERO:)
-SAVAGE LOVE
A Slam Poem—It gets Better ( Tera McIntosh)
Dear Tyler.
Nobody told you before…
but thing’s won’t always be so great
We’ve managed to abolish slavery—-
but still harvest fresh grown hate
Right here in our own backyard, it exist
I just stepped on some right around the corner
And I am hoping with these words—
I might Weed out some of the rest…
because these shoes are tired— of stepping in it.
It’s not always gonna be so great….
But don’t give up
-roll up your tolerant sleeves
And…..show your intellectual fists
flex the muscles of your mind
And beat them with proof and pride
Your stronger then the monsters of their mind
Don’t let them take you back to the underground hide yourself times
Full of pink triangles, labels, and separate lunch lines
Hang on Tyler, I promise
It gets better this time
Don’t feed societies dreams
Let who you are bust from your seams
On to others that love you just as you are
On to others that have hung pictures of you on
The walls of their hearts.
And for those others…the haterrrrs
Take their words and trap them in a jar
And make sure you tighten the lid
Because words can’t escape and sting you
If you don’t let them
And if that doesn’t work
Build a damn within your voice
that blocks the flooding emotions
From your mind to your heart
That makes you want to say I give up—
-cause enough is enough
Don’t give up —-even when enough has had
Enough of enough
And you feel like the weakest— in the world of the tough
Take a breathe that starts from the heart of your heart
And remember how far you’ve come from the start
Of the start of who you really are now.
Don’t let them win
Fight hard—paper beats rock again and again.
Fight through the early cold morning why’s
And the late night solo questioning cries
And be you—let your rays shine through onto others
And soon you will be speaking
And educating kids who were just——— like—- you.
And when night falls and you feel
Lost in the abnormal herd of different kind
Remember that in the early morning wake
You will still be everything you’ve always wanted to be
And that’s enough.
Don’t let people say we’re not the same
Because the last time I loved
I still loved as hard as they do
Harder then the square root of you
Harder then goodbye for the last time
Harder then jamming out in to my favorite rhyme
While the person over in the next lane
Just smiles at me and drives on thru.
Because she can’t tag my differences
From her sunglasses view.
And when they say we are just the same
Show them the holes in your socks
That have traveled the loneliest nights with you
Show them that you bleed and sneeze
You laugh and scream
And you love and dream
Dream that you’ll be treated the same
One day from someones heart of their heart.
Don’t let middle school whispers echo
Into the confined, conformed, lockers of your mind
and build up hallways of fear
that separate who you are and
who others want you to be.
And those words they say about you
Stack them up in a perfect row
And climb them one by one
And soon you will be standing at the top
Stronger then everyone below—
Because tough times— make us grow—————
As strong as the writings on the legal pad
Of our mind that spells out proudly—
WHO I AM IS FINE.
And remember
If I can stand here today, so can you.
It gets better—it did for me…
and it will for you.
Yours in Change,
Tera
I think Kurt Vonnegut said it best:
“She was a fool, and so am I, and so is anyone who thinks he sees what God is doing.” (Cat’s Cradle)
My magic sky friend can beat up your magic sky friend!
…Hate… @151
THIS is how parents are partially to blame for what their children think:
First, My Mommy and Daddy told me that “Everyone is not entitled to the same level of social acceptance”. This means that, because I don’t like you or “your kind”, I don’t have to talk to you or socialize with you or be near you in any way. So even though I am in school, and I am forced to coexist with you in the same social sphere for 6-8 hours a day, I have the right to completely ignore you and treat you like you don’t exist. Mommy and Daddy also told me to be courteous, so maybe I’ll smile when I do it.
Second, I cannot be rude to you or bully you so I cannot push you down a flight of stairs, but I also don’t have to see you as my equal because I am so much better than you. People are not all social equals and clearly you are a bad person, even if you still have the same rights. I will still smile at you though, even though I totally avoid the dregs of society (you) and only hang out with the socially superior people of “my own” group.
Third, many people say that the bible says that you should die for being who you are. My parents don’t like you; they have told me so. They don’t want me socializing with people like you. My church does not like you; it has told me so. It does not want me becoming a person like you. They say that I do not have to be next to people like you, but I am forced to when I am in school. School makes me do something my parents do not like. It makes me do something my church does not like. Why do they have to be in the same school as normal people? Mommy and Daddy say that I should not have to be in the same room as them, but they are already here; I don’t like that. I don’t like them.
Mommy and Daddy say that that is OK, as long as I don’t want them to die…
even though some people say that the bible does.
Thus, Mommy and Daddy say that I have to treat everyone equally.
Mommy and Daddy also say that you do not have to accept have to accept everyone, because not everyone is my social equal.
Why do they get the same things as I do when they are not the same as me? Why do they get the same things when they are not as good as me? Why do they get equal treatment when we are not equal?
I do not have to be their friend. Maybe if I ignore them and never be their friend or be friendly to them they will just go away.
Maybe they will feel that they should not be here,
at this school,
in this town,
on this earth
I’m adding my voice chorus – Dan, you are an articulate, inspiring, and passionate voice speaking out with morality and logic for all of us homos and queers. Thank you.
I think you and L.R. are talking past each other. I think you may both be right.
Among the panoply of gay issues, gay marriage in particular is complex. Historically, marriage is a religious concept. It gets complicated because both common law and statutory law have built both social and legal institutions around marriage, and in particular at times in history when marriage was commonly seen as a religious concept. This means we have a religious concept that has taken on legal dimensions, in spite of the First Amendment. In this context, it would appear that the legal dimensions may be unlawful under our Constitution. As such, DOMA can be seen as a preventative attempt to try to preserve the legal side from what may be an inevitable challenge. The irony is that rather than extending marriage to gays, such a challenge could destroy it for everyone. Hence, a reasonable approach would be to maintain marriage as beetween a man and a woman, and “reassemble” the legal institutions in a manner more consonant with the Constitution and in a way that extends equal rights to everyone–straight, gay, or whatever–without improperly infringing upon constitutionally protected religious rights.
Not all religious people oppose gay marriage. Not all gays support gay marriage–as one of my dear gay friends once said, “marriage is a straight thing.” The proportions of each are probably irrelevant: reasonable and intelligent people have different views here. Athiests can support fundamentalists’ views to protect a religious concept. Fundamentalists can support gays’ access to non-religious social constructs. But the ignorant thing is for liberal gays to keep shoving it down the throats of people who believe it is an infringement upon their legitimate and legally protected beliefs, claiming it as a “right,” rather than forging a solution that preserves everyone’s rights.
And it is clear to most of your readers that you are not an independent-minded voter, with repeated suggestions that conservative politicians are categorically the enemy of your social objectives for our society, accompanied by attacks on Republican (but not Democrat) politicians who promote actively policies you think may be opposed to your own interests. This implies that you, like most people at the HRC National Celebration last week who applauded guest speaker Valerie Jarrett, blindly support Democrats in a world where Log Cabin Republicans worked to throw out DADT and the Democrat administration–led by a president on the record as opposing gay marriage–is appealing it. The reality is that the politics are just as complex–many Republicans, even conservative ones, support gay rights and many Democrats, even liberal ones, oppose them. Moreover, you should join some Republican gays that are open to the possibility that Democrats merely pander to the gay community without action or solutions, while Republicans may be the best hope for finding a constitutional and practical way to get gays the equality they deserve.
I think you and L.R. are talking past each other. I think you may both be right.
Among the panoply of gay issues, gay marriage in particular is complex. Historically, marriage is a religious concept. It gets complicated because both common law and statutory law have built both social and legal institutions around marriage, and in particular at times in history when marriage was commonly seen as a religious concept. This means we have a religious concept that has taken on legal dimensions, in spite of the First Amendment. In this context, it would appear that the legal dimensions may be unlawful under our Constitution. As such, DOMA can be seen as a preventative attempt to try to preserve the legal side from what may be an inevitable challenge. The irony is that rather than extending marriage to gays, such a challenge could destroy it for everyone. Hence, a reasonable approach would be to maintain marriage as beetween a man and a woman, and “reassemble” the legal institutions in a manner more consonant with the Constitution and in a way that extends equal rights to everyone–straight, gay, or whatever–without improperly infringing upon constitutionally protected religious rights.
Not all religious people oppose gay marriage. Not all gays support gay marriage–as one of my dear gay friends once said, “marriage is a straight thing.” The proportions of each are probably irrelevant: reasonable and intelligent people have different views here. Athiests can support fundamentalists’ views to protect a religious concept. Fundamentalists can support gays’ access to non-religious social constructs. But the ignorant thing is for liberal gays to keep shoving it down the throats of people who believe it is an infringement upon their legitimate and legally protected beliefs, claiming it as a “right,” rather than forging a solution that preserves everyone’s rights.
And it is clear to most of your readers that you are not an independent-minded voter, with repeated suggestions that conservative politicians are categorically the enemy of your social objectives for our society, accompanied by attacks on Republican (but not Democrat) politicians who promote actively policies you think may be opposed to your own interests. This implies that you, like most people at the HRC National Celebration last week who applauded guest speaker Valerie Jarrett, blindly support Democrats in a world where Log Cabin Republicans worked to throw out DADT and the Democrat administration–led by a president on the record as opposing gay marriage–is appealing it. The reality is that the politics are just as complex–many Republicans, even conservative ones, support gay rights and many Democrats, even liberal ones, oppose them. Moreover, you should join some Republican gays that are open to the possibility that Democrats merely pander to the gay community without action or solutions, while Republicans may be the best hope for finding a constitutional and practical way to get gays the equality they deserve.
Dan’s nailed it. These kind folk want to believe they are good people because they don’t promote hate. Problem is they promote hate and bullying silently with their silence. Christian kids get the hate messages even without their parents being the delivery persons.
Dan’s words are so fun to read, but don’t just read what Dan says, reach out and volunteer with school kids. If you don’t, some Christan mom, with an empty nest and closed mind is gonna be volunteering without anyone to keep her in check.
@ 196: Stonehammer, whoever you are, I love you.
“magic sky friend”
heh, heh. That’s my new favorite.
@196 I, too, love you.
Vomit. I find your response hateful. Stop trying to make christians change their beliefs. Just because someone doesn’t believe in gay marriage, or has their views on homosexuality does in no way shape or form mean they engage in the acts you refer to in your response – Talk about hate. Wow. Just like you or anyone else has the right not believe in someones religion or lifestyle or have views on someones choices or opinions doesn’t automatically mean they spew dehumanizing words or spread hate and essentially degrade someones self worth because of it. Come on- The whole response was COMICALLY hypocritical. You want to spread love ? Try using a different tactic..The bitterness and rage isn’t working. And I’m sorry that in your experience every Christian has been as evil as you describe them. Thats sad.
Why do you only focus on the gay boys who have committed suicide recently? Do the lesbians not count? Typical gay male narcissism I suppose.
http://www.queerty.com/suicide-lesbian-howard-u…;;
has anyone forgotten that teens have been committing suicide for a long time now, regardless of sexual orientation ! society really sucks sometimes
@239 – There was a time when people “just agreed with slavery” or “just thought whites were better than blacks, that’s all.”
My parents are nice as pie to every black person they meet. But as soon as we were home it was “nigger this, nigger that.”
Dan is angry; YOU are hateful. Your bible tells you so.
Ok … we are off on another tangent again and off the subject. KIDS DYING! All most of us do is sit back and blame the other guy. I am not defending the religious bigots by any means. I am saying look in the mirror first. When was the last time you saw a queeny guy walking and shrugged in disgust mumbling “lil fag” or saw a young girl with short hair and denims and thought “dyke” ??? The anti-gay movement wins every time you do that. Until the gay community unites and stops arguing semantics more Kids and adults will die … and if you aren’t doing something positive to help… you are just as guilty of murder as their church and parents.
There are several ‘online’ groups trying to help. We used to have a worldwide voice of gays in MCC which has been mysteriously silent recently. Groups like the Trevor Project and the Matthew Sheppard Foundation are trying to reach out but are limited by finances and overall lack of support from the gay community. I got involved more than 20 years ago when I took in a young guy who had been abandoned by his ‘christian’ parents. This problem is not new just more open. He and I tried to start something then to help but met more resistance than you can imagine, mostly from our own community. “I can’t come out now” “I can’t be bothered now” “it’s not my problem” Ever say that? If so.. You contributed to a death. Sound harsh? Think about the kids that die. So far … 2 out of over 200 have made any type of effort to help. Not a very good average but typical. And that is why we are losing to them.
Let us point out that North America, Christianity is THE religion. Yes, there are other religions out there, but they are in the minority. What does this mean? Christians don’t need a pat on the back for being tolerant, anymore than white males need a pat on the back for being supportive of gender and racial equality despite their white maleness (and I’m a white male). It’s just common decency, and just because a large chunk of your group doesn’t believe in it doesn’t mean you deserve a cookie for embracing the rest of the human race. Christians have the most power and influence. They have the most numbers. I think most everyone knows and accepts that not all Christians are raving lunatic bigots, because that would mean that a huge portion of Americans are raving lunatic bigots (and I certainly hope that isn’t the case). Christianity doesn’t need to be DEFENDED, let alone by the people it persecutes, because the majority of society looks approvingly on Christianity, to the point that atheist political candidates are in deep trouble. Christianity is the accepted norm – it needs no particular defense given to it. The whole idea that it does smacks of the evangelical delusion that Christians are a persecuted minority today just as they were during the early days of Romans and lions.
People like LR seem to believe that by denying gay people human rights, but drawing the line at stoning them or other violence, they are not bigots. Let us get this straight: If you believe in denying someone human rights, you are saying they are less deserving somehow – implicitly, that they are less human than those who deserve the rights. You can say you hate the sin and not the sinner, but no matter how you phrase it, you are still saying “this person deserves less than me unless they become like me, thus more human/good/sinless/whatever.”
If you believe that all people are sinners and gayness is just another sin, you are still putting it in a special “more eviler” category by denying gay people the right to marry – what other groups are you denying the right to marry based on sin quotient? Shouldn’t adulterers (which, by the old biblical definition, includes anyone who had sex before marriage) also be denied the right to marry? Shouldn’t people who have lust in their heart be denied the right to marry? Atheists and other heretics? People like LR love to point out that we’re all sinners, but they still have a special kind of judgment reserved for gay people that allows them the excuse to deny a right which they tend to believe all other human beings deserve, regardless of the variety of sin.
And to the “good Christians” who do believe in gay marriage and whine that they still don’t get enough credit – what have you actually done? Do you just write in to whine at Dan because it’s safe, anonymous and he can’t excommunicate you? Or do you actually speak out where it matters – at the bigots in your own community who you say give you a bad name? You complain that it’s just the vocal minority making you look bad – how come more of you aren’t being vocal within your own religion, letting it know you aren’t interested in a religion of hate? Kudos to the Quaker whose group isn’t performing marriages anymore. But to the person who said peace and tolerance just isn’t as vocal – right, I suggest you look into MLK and Gandhi. It’s not that peace and tolerance can’t be more visible. It’s that you are CHOOSING not to make waves in your own community.
Interesting debate . . . 223 you rock! But I must say that my gut reaction was the same as Comment 40 so, well, so long (and I say that with sadness as I’ve been a long time reader).
Your response to LR was absolutely correct.
To quote a fellow Episcopalian, ” ‘I am a Christian’ has been stolen from us and turned into some sort of media-driven political, judgmental statement. I am proud that in [the Episcopal Church] ‘I am a Christian’ means ‘I am trying to be a follower of Jesus Christ,’ and is supported by inclusive liturgy, discernment, and thoughtful spiritual reflection.”
No organization, church or otherwise, that preaches bigotry or second-class citizenship for anyone, anywhere (whether or not based on Old Testament law, which incidentally many Christians understand as having been drastically amended if not mostly abrogated by the subsequent arrival of Jesus) can be remotely “Christian” in the sense of following the teachings of Jesus.
It is time to take the word “Christian” back from the hands of hate-mongering, small-minded, right-wing closet cases, though I have to admit I’m at a loss as to how to do it. Perhaps other readers might have some creative ideas?
Rock on, Dan Savage!!! That was such a kick-ass response to the first letter. You are the MAN!!
dood, your response to L.R. was poignant and beautifully crafted. Thank you for being a solid, stand-up human.
My ex wasnt attracted to transsexual, he dated me and I am a pre op transsexual, he wasnt interested in whats between my legs, we had anal sex and he is always the one who is doing the penetration, but he did start watching limited transsexual porn because he got more comfortable with the idea of a girl with a shenis.
So yeah, you can be a striaght man and watch some tranny porn, but not exclusively, and not mainly.
I wonder why nobody, in these discussions of the New Testament, ever mentions the fellow who describes himself as “the disciple that Jesus loved”?
All the adult 30-40 something religious people I know (including SDA,Catholic, Mormon, JW,Baptist, ISKON, Muslim, Wiccan and New Agey whatever) all share a viscous, hateful, potentially murderous view of everyone who doesn’t share their insane psycho-social-religious view of the universe. The single biggest indicator of teen-age suicide is being deviant from the insanity of the social context they’ve been born and raised into. No end in site so far as I can see.
I am so sick of judgmental Christians who think they can teach their kids to judge others but are not supporting bigotry and bullying. Dan is absolutely right. They give license to their kids, and many others, to bully and persecute. They sit by while religious leaders spew strident, hateful, judgmental bile – but play innocent when tragedy ensues. Where is the outrage for all the Christian sponsored hate speech? If Jesus is love, start walking the walk! Meanwhile, the bible is NOT the law of the land – the constitution is. If you don’t believe in the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, go to Iran (and take Scalia and Thomas with you)!