I heard an interview with you about your It Gets Better campaign. I was saddened and frustrated with your comments regarding people of faith and their perpetuation of bullying. As someone who loves the Lord and does not support gay marriage, I can honestly say I was heartbroken to hear about the young man who took his own life.
If your message is that we should not judge people based on their sexual preference, how do you justify judging entire groups of people for any other reason (including their faith)? There is no part of me that took any pleasure in what happened to that young man.
To that end, to imply that I would somehow encourage my children to mock, hurt, or intimidate another person for any reason is completely unfounded and offensive. Being a follower of Christ is, above all things, a recognition that we are all imperfect, fallible, and in desperate need of a savior. We cannot believe that we are better or more worthy than other people.
Please consider your viewpoint, and please be more careful with your words in the future.
L.R.
I’m sorry your feelings were hurt by my comments.
No, wait. I’m not. Gay kids are dying. So let’s try to keep things in perspective: Fuck your feelings.
A question: Do you “support” atheist marriage? Interfaith marriage? Divorce and remarriage? All are legal, all go against Christian and/or traditional ideas about marriage, and yet there’s no “Christian” movement to deny marriage rights to atheists or people marrying outside their respective faiths or people divorcing and remarrying. Why the hell not?
Sorry, L.R., but so long as you support the denial of marriage rights to same-sex couples, it’s clear that you do believe that some people—straight people—are “better or more worthy” than others.
And—sorry—but you are partly responsible for the bullying and physical violence being visited on vulnerable LGBT children. The kids of people who see gay people as sinful or damaged or disordered and unworthy of full civil equality—even if those people strive to express their bigotry in the politest possible way (at least when they happen to be addressing a gay person)—learn to see gay people as sinful, damaged, disordered, and unworthy. And while there may not be any gay adults or couples where you live, or at your church, or in your workplace, I promise you that there are gay and lesbian children in your schools. And while you can only attack gays and lesbians at the ballot box, nice and impersonally, your children have the option of attacking actual gays and lesbians, in person, in real time.
Real gay and lesbian children. Not political abstractions, not “sinners.” Gay and lesbian children.
Try to keep up: The dehumanizing bigotries that fall from the lips of “faithful Christians,” and the lies about us that vomit out from the pulpits of churches that “faithful Christians” drag their kids to on Sundays, give your children license to verbally abuse, humiliate, and condemn the gay children they encounter at school. And many of your children—having listened to Mom and Dad talk about how gay marriage is a threat to family and how gay sex makes their magic sky friend Jesus cry—feel justified in physically abusing the LGBT children they encounter in their schools. You don’t have to explicitly “encourage [your] children to mock, hurt, or intimidate” queer kids. Your encouragement—along with your hatred and fear—is implicit. It’s here, it’s clear, and we’re seeing the fruits of it: dead children.
Oh, and those same dehumanizing bigotries that fill your straight children with hate? They fill your gay children with suicidal despair. And you have the nerve to ask me to be more careful with my words?
Did that hurt to hear? Good. But it couldn’t have hurt nearly as much as what was said and done to Asher Brown and Justin Aaberg and Billy Lucas and Cody Barker and Seth Walsh—day in, day out for years—at schools filled with bigoted little monsters created not in the image of a loving God, but in the image of the hateful and false “followers of Christ” they call Mom and Dad.
I am engaged to a man whose sexual orientation is somewhat confusing to me.
A few months ago, I discovered transgender porn on his computer. When I asked him about it, he said he just watches all kinds of porn “just to watch it.” That sounded like total bullshit to me—and it was proved to be total bullshit when I discovered that he watches ONLY this type of porn. I also recently discovered a letter he had composed a few years back to another man asking him to “hook up.” The letter also states that my fiancé had a girlfriend, and since “discretion is very important” to him, he could only hook up when she was out of town.
I can deal with somebody being bisexual. I have bisexual fantasies myself. However, I can’t deal with someone lying to himself and to me, and being unfaithful. Sadly, I can’t really make this guy confess to me that he is bi. When I tried, he simply told me, “You are so blind.” What does that mean?
I really don’t want to dump the guy. I love him. My question is, I guess, what the fuck do I do? I feel like crazy bitch supreme trying to get this out of him, but it’s impossible not to think about.
Bitchy Girlfriend
There’s nothing to be confused about: Your fiancé is very clearly bisexual. Gay men just aren’t into chicks-with-dicks porn; that’s a genre that appeals exclusively to straight/straightish/bi male viewers.
So why can he be open about his cocksuckery with a complete stranger—that dude he sent the letter that you “discovered”—but not with you?
It’s a tired cliché, I realize, and I shy away from it for that reason, but in this case the shoe fits: Your fiancé has a bad case of the internalized homophobias. He finds it easier to be open with someone he doesn’t care about and is unlikely to see ever again precisely because he doesn’t care about that person and isn’t going to see him again. If you or the other people in his life he’s close to knew, he fears you would see him as damaged or inferior because that’s how he sees himself.
So, yep, a bad case of the internalized homophobias. He’s not entirely responsible for contracting this malady—our homophobic culture is the disease vector here—but, as an adult, he is responsible for working through it, for overcoming it, for being truthful with himself and the people he claims to love.
If he can’t be honest with you—the snoop he claims to love—about his sexual orientation, and if being cheated on is a deal breaker for you (and he will cheat on you), don’t marry him.
I’m a loud fucker, just like the partner of the woman who wrote in recently. With my consent, my partner uses a pillow to dampen my screams, so I don’t have to worry I’ll piss off the neighbors.
Lesbians Do Scream
It’s all fun and games—loud fun, ear-splitting games—until someone accidentally asphyxiates a screamer. But thanks for sharing, LDS.
I am so sick of judgmental Christians who think they can teach their kids to judge others but are not supporting bigotry and bullying. Dan is absolutely right. They give license to their kids, and many others, to bully and persecute. They sit by while religious leaders spew strident, hateful, judgmental bile – but play innocent when tragedy ensues. Where is the outrage for all the Christian sponsored hate speech? If Jesus is love, start walking the walk! Meanwhile, the bible is NOT the law of the land – the constitution is. If you don’t believe in the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, go to Iran (and take Scalia and Thomas with you)!
How is it in the fact that God has been removed from the relevance of society how many years ago and you say “God damn that God He kills gay children”. Well, for those who remember what the world used to be like and know that it is now “unlike” the way it used to be, that it is not God who throws gay children to lions by the light of the silvery moon, but as much more to the very lack of him. I well know you don’t want to mistake Christ with good and love, but don’t mistake this current world that has taken God out of the world as it has, as a world of good and love either. The world is as mean as it is, not just by the influences of Christ alone, but by the outright actions of the people of this modern world. The world should never have been run the was it had always been run and now still is, but it does and it always has run itself in such a way, and just as now, it should never had been run like it is and always has been run. Don’t blame God for your problems. You all brought such things on your own selves by own free decisions and actions.
You know what? Christians (and Muslims and Jews too) need to quit confusing the means (books of mystical history and ethnic egomania) over the end: the intentions of their creator.
In other words, quit worshiping a book over your actual god.
The real scripture is all around to see: the universe. This makes scientists the real theologians.
Biblical text,written in fallible human language can in no way be a god’s word. It is entirely human. And primarily a tool of control and manipulation by the controlling and the greedy. And no, the book itself saying it’s god’s word doesn’t count. Creation gave you that logical brain, use it!
You can look for human wisdom and some poetically inspiring passages in many books. Just stop sinning against commandment #1 by putting any one of them above your deity.
Once you get past the obsession with some book, the whole of creation is out there. Just be careful not to confuse the wind as the whisper of divinity.
#255 addendum:
Accidentally deleted thread-relevant text:
People who believe in god can find reasons to be decent,tolerant, accepting, rational souls without having a book to thump, or some preachers telling them what human words mean, or who deserves their hate today.
I happen to be an atheist, but even the dimmest god believer has to see that any hands in the mix must be yours. First order of business for “good” Xtians is to clean up your houses. DTMF bigoted from control of your message.
Any Christian or any other theist who wants to engage in blaming the victims rather than society for wringing their hands and failing to intervene and protect them when they had the chance, and the bullies for oppressing them: as far as I’m concerned, those kids are better off, if they’re away from self-important jerks like you. You’re exactly what Savage was railing against. I hope your fatal pomposity that takes the lives of children like those away pleases you, if you can pretend to hide behind your god! If only everyone was just like you, there would never be any problems!
Get this: there will always be difference. The problem with Christianity and many other religions is that they try to eliminate difference. You CAN’T. It is physically impossible to make everyone the same, to try to make everyone conform to your impossible and moronic ideals, especially when said people bring others NO HARM whatsoever. I quit Christianity because I no longer wanted to be associated with a movement far less concerned with kindness and charity than being a busybody and absolute conformity. I didn’t find difference threatening, but the utmost nature of Christianity and religion in general is about erasing difference, valuing the physically strong and hardhearted over the weak and the sensitive, and respecting tradition at all costs. I fail to see any bravery or “holiness” inherent in running scared of the powerful and in preventing any change to the status quo. I see no good in punishing others for what they were born as and can’t help being.
Rather than ask gay people why they can’t be like you, you should ask yourself why you need everyone else to be like you and to see your perspective on things. Why are you so threatened by difference? Why are the children and adults of society so obsessed with sameness and the status quo? Ask yourselves that before you lecture others on who is at fault for failure to save those who are weak and vulnerable from the oppressive intolerance of others. Ask yourself, not if that gays and others fail to meet your ideals, if they are weak, but why you’re such a weak-willed coward for caring so much for “order” and the oppressors than for the victims. Ask yourself why you’d rather blame the rape victim than punish the rapist. Ask yourself why your god apparently cares that things continue on as they do, and demands that anyone different in any way conforms as much as humanly possible or face punishment, than asks for kindness and open-mindedness from the majority. Ask yourself whether this is a “god” at all, or a simple projection of your own small-mindedness and stupidity. Which is more “godly,” a world where these kids would’ve been allowed to have been left alone and to live happy lives, or the world we live in now, where they died of despair, and all you will do is make excuses for those who drove them to that point? And then, ask if you’re really proud of yourself. I’m an “evil” atheist, and I know that I was bullied in school for being a nerd; everyone else I saw bullied, I defended them. I didn’t need the excuse of “Christ” to know that bullying was wrong. I stayed around, even after all indications that no one who mattered was really going to care, because I genuinely believe that something has to get better. I didn’t have a big church community to “support” me and hide behind who would’ve just blamed me for being weird. Ask yourself what the kids did to deserve to be bullied or beaten up every day, since you say that they brought the “problem on themselves?” Ask yourself what Clementi did to have his privacy violated and broadcast on the Internet because his roommate was a complete asshole? What does that mean? So if a boy is a little waifish or has a girly-sounding voice, he brought that on himself? You have any idea how stupid and self-serving that sounds?
You live with your words.
Any Christian or any other theist who wants to engage in blaming the victims rather than society for wringing their hands and failing to intervene and protect them when they had the chance, and the bullies for oppressing them: as far as I’m concerned, those kids are better off, if they’re away from self-important jerks like you. You’re exactly what Savage was railing against. I hope your fatal pomposity that takes the lives of children like those away pleases you, if you can pretend to hide behind your god! If only everyone was just like you, there would never be any problems!
Get this: there will always be difference. The problem with Christianity and many other religions is that they try to eliminate difference. You CAN’T. It is physically impossible to make everyone the same, to try to make everyone conform to your impossible and moronic ideals, especially when said people bring others NO HARM whatsoever. I quit Christianity because I no longer wanted to be associated with a movement far less concerned with kindness and charity than being a busybody and absolute conformity. I didn’t find difference threatening, but the utmost nature of Christianity and religion in general is about erasing difference, valuing the physically strong and hardhearted over the weak and the sensitive, and respecting tradition at all costs. I fail to see any bravery or “holiness” inherent in running scared of the powerful and in preventing any change to the status quo. I see no good in punishing others for what they were born as and can’t help being.
Rather than ask gay people why they can’t be like you, you should ask yourself why you need everyone else to be like you and to see your perspective on things. Why are you so threatened by difference? Why are the children and adults of society so obsessed with sameness and the status quo? Ask yourselves that before you lecture others on who is at fault for failure to save those who are weak and vulnerable from the oppressive intolerance of others. Ask yourself, not if that gays and others fail to meet your ideals, if they are weak, but why you’re such a weak-willed coward for caring so much for “order” and the oppressors than for the victims. Ask yourself why you’d rather blame the rape victim than punish the rapist. Ask yourself why your god apparently cares that things continue on as they do, and demands that anyone different in any way conforms as much as humanly possible or face punishment, than asks for kindness and open-mindedness from the majority. Ask yourself whether this is a “god” at all, or a simple projection of your own small-mindedness and stupidity. Which is more “godly,” a world where these kids would’ve been allowed to have been left alone and to live happy lives, or the world we live in now, where they died of despair, and all you will do is make excuses for those who drove them to that point? And then, ask if you’re really proud of yourself. I’m an “evil” atheist, and I know that I was bullied in school for being a nerd; everyone else I saw bullied, I defended them. I didn’t need the excuse of “Christ” to know that bullying was wrong. I stayed around, even after all indications that no one who mattered was really going to care, because I genuinely believe that something has to get better. I didn’t have a big church community to “support” me and hide behind who would’ve just blamed me for being weird. Ask yourself what the kids did to deserve to be bullied or beaten up every day, since you say that they brought the “problem on themselves?” Ask yourself what Clementi did to have his privacy violated and broadcast on the Internet because his roommate was a complete asshole? What does that mean? So if a boy is a little waifish or has a girly-sounding voice, he brought that on himself? You have any idea how stupid and self-serving that sounds?
You live with your words.
@175 ” Ignorance and cruelty feed bigotry, not religion.”
But don’t you see, religion is organized and society approved “Ignorance and cruelty”
Wonderful column Dan that speaks to the heart of the attitudes that create the conditions for hate.
@36 I found myself pondering why the activism of churchs like the UCC, Quakers, and UU’s, that are working to help the LGBT community gain equality, have not been given much media attention and have therefore not been able to make much headway on countering the public image of “Christians” or even been given space as participants in public debate over the matter. In Texas they tried (and failed) to have UU declared a cult instead of a religion, and there was a call from Beck to leave progressive churchs… so the only media acknowledgment of progressive christian churches is passive and negative and does not give them a voice in the debate.
Dan, saw your video on ” IT GETS BETTER” campaign, CONGRATS and thank you!
I was Disappointed with your comments on how you met your lover… BETTER TO EAT YOU WITH??? – I think it’s great that you adopted a child and have loving family that supports you. BUt is this something you would tell YOUR child… how you met? LEt’s be positive role models…… but I believe you need to EDit yourself on a PSA.
It just seems like the gay world is always getting bad wrap, that are sexual perverts. GEE how romantic, Now i guess you won’t answer this without your typical FUCK YOU comment…..why, because you can.
HEY I’m a big fan of yours…….. Really Disappointed with that comment- Nothing ” CHEESY ” about it at all. Just what the worlds wants to hear!
Dear Mr. Savage,
Thank you for the reply you gave to L.R.’s concerns.
Warmest regards,
Elena
@23 – I am a Christian who is well aware of history. My church stood up against slavery, marched with civil rights protesters in the 60s, and has ordained openly gay clergy. It is astoundingly ignorant to paint all people of faith with one brush. But then, you’re probably one of those bigoted ignoramuses who thinks all people who practice Islam are terrorists. What are you doing reading Savage Love? Wouldn’t your time be better spent listening to Bill O’ Reilly and Fox News?
Were is itgetsbetter.com or itgetsbetter.org ????
bumper stickers….. banners….. stickers…. buttons…. logo shirts ????
If you don’t like Dan’s answer, what the fuck are you doing reading a column about fucking, ass fucking and fist fucking and cum drinking fucking column. There is no place for religious fuckers in this column. You are all responsible for 2000 years of cruelty and backwardness. There is no good Xtian just like there is no good Facist or good Wife beater or good serial killer. I am fucking done with being nice to all these comemierdas that are slaves to gaseous creatures in the sky and expect others to respect their deities. Fuck them and their goatfucking deities. If they want to be respected they need to learn to practice their metaphysical rape in the privacy of their tax free places of worship and leave the rest of us, happy and honest sinners in fucking peace. This week answer was the answer to end all answers, bravo querido Dan. And for with the bigoted, bad and stupid followers of these tax free institutions, we should democratically impose a tax, a sin tax for every time they open ther dirty, infected mouthes to vomit their cruel, horrific lies, just like we tax tobacco to prevent people from breathing its toxic smoke. We “sinners” should also demand from politicians that they stop being the bootlickers of these blood drinkers and flesh chewers and start respecting true human rights and fair justice. The Left and the Right have for too long being the hungry lickers of every santorum that drops from the church ass, its fucking time that they stop. Que se vayan pa la mierda!
Eddie el Cubano Pecador
Yeah! Save Gay Teens! Fuck all the other kids that kill themselves because they are teased and bullied and generally tortured!
In the DFW area Youth First Texas is an organization for GLBTQ teens. I’m sure that other, similar organizations exist, and I hope that teens who need information or help will contact them. My parish, Transfiguration Episcopal, donates the proceeds from our Maundy Thursday Soup Supper to Youth First Texas.
@241. Yes teenagers have been killing themselves regardless of sexual orientation for years. However, LGBT youth are 4 times more likely to commit suicide than their straight counterparts.
Don’t give them ideas Mr. Savage. I’m fairly sure a “end atheist marriage” movement could gain some steam in places like Texas and South Carolina.
I read this article about a year ago, i believe it was in time magazine? It had to do with racism, which applies to so much more! What I pulled from it, is that by not speaking about things before they happen, you perpetuate that very thing.
@266
50% of an average student population experiences bullying at least once a month. Only 10% of children experience persistent bullying.
For LGBT youth, the numbers are different.
80% are harassed for their sexual orientation and the majority of these children experience frequent victimization.
What’s more, even though 91% of the average student population report hearing repeated slurs based on sexual orientation, teachers are found to intervene only 3% of the time.
Bullying is never right, and it is not about stopping the harassment of one kid at the expense of another, it’s about supporting a grossly under served group. When gay kids are harassed more often than straight kids, with greater severity than straight kids, and receive help from adults less often than straight kids, there is little wonder that LGBT youth are 4 times more likely than their straight peers to commit suicide as a result of this harassment.
We are clearly doing something very, very wrong.
Dear L.R.:
Your bible is full of some pretty horrific statements saying we’re abominations of nature, that what we do (in other words, the way we love) is unnatural, that we should be put to death, etc., and if you’re going to play the victim because we dared to call your religion out on it, keep in mind that book is nearly two thousand years old. It disrespected us first, and has done so for centuries. Boo hoo, we finally are now send the sentiment back in your direction. Boo fucking hoo. Deal with it.
You’re choosing to believe in it, the writers of it chose to hate on us, but we didn’t choose to be who we are because that’s our nature. If man-made is the opposite of natural, then our hatred, which you choose and you make, is what’s unnatural, not our “lifestyle” of loving one another.
If anything… why, that’s rather Christ-like of us to love one another in a way that’s so powerful it bursts through boundaries, now isn’t it? Why yes… yes it is.
I love the project. It’s just what many teens need, gay or straight.
“Bob,” Christians really piss me off, pretty much on a daily basis. Kids getting beat up and harassed to death, and Christians come in with their make-believe stories about their little make-believe pokemon Jesus who has all the traits they love most. Yet I look in the bible, and he sure as fuck doesn’t live in there. Makes you wonder if these sanctimonious Everybody Lovers have ever read the end of their fucking stupid book. For fuck’s sake, Jesus has seven fucking eyes and seven fucking horns and a half-gashed-out neck, and then he’s riding around on a horse slashing people to bits with his mouth-sword, and then he’s getting all these people stuffed into a winepress and cruelly crushes them until their eyes pop out and their bones crack and they’re reduced to pulp that pours out into the streets and makes the ground flood with three or so feet of blood.
Dudes–if you ignore the end of the book, then I can ignore everything else. You tell me it’s metaphor, so I JUDGE the moral lessons within those metaphors. The metaphors, the teachings of Jesus ARE NOT GOOD. They are BLOODY and CRUEL and CULT-CRAZY. As I like to say, “the bible’s teachings on childcare are summed up thusly: beat ’em, sell ’em, rape ’em then eat ’em.”
Thing is, Oh you More Liberal Than Thou Peaceful Christians, when you sign up to be part of this group, you endorse your fucking book. How is anyone supposed to know which part you trash and which part you like? The part where the biggest moral lesson of all is Absolute Obedience? Or is it the sex part. Ohhhh, no ya don’t. You can’t divorce Jesus from the hatred of sex. Or anything else in your book. He said he follows The Law, Every Jot and Tittle. That includes those silly ceremonial laws about “things” like “unclean menstruating women,” killing people who work on Saturday, killing children who mouth off or don’t obey absolutely, and killing people who fuck wrong. And I know YOU don’t fuck right. But hey–YOU guys are the ones who like to say we’re all sinners who deserve to die.
It really is unfair to pillory an entire collective of people because they are united in the Lord they’ve elected to submit; but read and live the gospel with different elucidations of the truth that it imports. (I somehow doubt that you’d invoke the same words with a Muslim…”their invisible friend in the sky…”…remember, it’s Hamas executing homosexuals for being gay in Gaza -Israeli’s have lesbians for generals…and it was the electorate of Oakland and Richmond, California that invoked that reprobate measure as a prohibition on gay unions -Black Baptists….but, myself being an Irish-Catholic heterosexual male from a slum in West Belfast who is so grateful each morning to buy his NY Times at a shop only four blocks from Castro Street, get his espresso from Ethiopian transplants on Haight Street, kiss his wife while sharing a meal with their gay flatmate, get “recovery” from his gay AA sponsor, and attend mass at Most Holy Redeemer at Diamond Street [where at least two-thirds of the congregants are old chatty queers who i am amazed stop talking to hear the homily…]..I’m your “bad-guy”, right? …Sometimes “knee-jerk liberalism” costs lives; do you really think that the only people who bully gays and lesbians are Evangelical Christians? Why is it we live in culture that lends “shades of grey” to Islamic terrorists, but not to Christian believers? No one should be bullied at school…And I do believe that a greater onus falls upon Christians that prey upon gays in any capacity because they’ve missed the whole point of charity and love…Why is homophobia in the Black and Muslim community acceptable to “the left”? (frankly, is that why AIDS and HIV are so much more prevalent in the Black and Muslim community…it’s not IV needle use…in my career as an addict, and then working in recovery in Portland and San Francisco I have met five Heroin/Meth addicts that were black; and it is impossible for a woman to transmit HIV to a man in intercourse [men give women AIDS, men give men AIDS, but women can not spread AIDS due to sexual contact.]; oh, and articles in the NY Times and Washington Post from 2006 support this claim -that black men are becoming infected due to unprotected sex with other men in “lock-up”, and then when released from prison/jail disseminate the worst slurs and behaviour towards homosexuals…but that’s ok, according to the left.)…and there is the spread of HIV across Africa…
My point though is this- you would tell me that is unfair to characterise all Blacks and Muslims as being “misoandrophilia” (I don’t think “homophobia” is correct because there are people who do hate gays, so i think it’s wrong to imply fear or misunderstanding…)…but if you’re a white-follower of Christ, then you’re the bastard of the greatest nadir…
-A Born Again-Catholic Believer who keeps his gay friends much closer than anyone invoking anathema and contempt and has eschewed himself from any communion that doesn’t insist her congregants offer love to everyone.
I love you Dan Savage!! OMG your response to L.R. is amazing, I couldn’t have said it better myself. I especially love the “magic sky friend Jesus” remark, fucking brilliant. Keep doing what you’re doing, the “It Gets Better” campaign is a great idea.
You say it gets better but there is no ENDA or protections against bullying on the job. I was enticed into a demotion to avoid humiliation and bullying on the job. The feelings are the same as rape. Especially when you are intimidated by speech and attitudes so as to remain silent about who you are on the job. When a screaming queen quipped we need no protections with quotas because we are already there I think we do not even support ourselves and sell ourselves out.
Ugh, I hate the fact that being Catholic means I’m stuck with the Original Sin of being one of the first religions to use our Bible to facilitate hate.
Yes, that’s exactly what it is. Love thy neighbour all you want, but when a catholic turns to me and says that gays are evil, and they’ll go to hell, and blah blah blah, all I can reply with is “Judge not, lest ye be judged.”
God’s business isn’t in the bedrooms of the consenting adults of the nation, to paraphrase a Canadian Politician.
Hi Dan,
Wish you would stop ranting about It Gets Better and return back to picking apart and answering peoples sexual questions.
246 got it right!
Christians who are not for discrimination against glbt people should reclaim the Christian dialog. Make it clear that you are not on the side of the very-vocal very-hateful most-visible Christians on this issue. Rescue “Christianity” so it doesn’t sink on the wrong side of this major civil-rights issue.
Tell other Christians you know! Tell people of other religions and non-religious people. A lot of them will be very pleasantly surprised. After this comments section, I as an indifferent agnostic am thinking “fuck yeah, Episcopalians and Quakers!”
It has been my personal experience that when someone proclaims to be a “good christian,” you need to run away from them just as fast and far away as you can. (Or they take advantage of you or rob you anyway they can.)
A truly good person doesn’t feel the need to tell you how good they are.
It has been my personal experience that when someone proclaims to be a “good christian,” you need to run away from them just as fast and far away as you can. (Or they take advantage of you and rob you anyway they can.)
A truly good person doesn’t feel the need to tell you how good they are.
I’m not sure of the protocol involved in commenting on an individual post when you’re already many posts past it, but I wanted to address the comment (I believe it was andy k.) about the only Christians who hate gays being evangelical Christians.
It may be a question of where you were raised; but where I come from, the only people who called themselves Christian, rather than a specific denomination, WERE evangelical, or born again Christians. Otherwise, people would say they were Catholic or Protestant, and if Protestant, they would mention the denomination; Lutheran, Episcopalian, etc. Although all of these religions are technically Christian, no one I’d ever known just used the generic term of Christian.
I was born and raised Catholic, in Brooklyn, at a time when Brooklyn was the city of churches, many of which were Catholic, with matching elementary schools. My day to day existence was Catholic; yet my house backed up to a girl’s yeshiva; and my idea of comfort food was a Hebrew National hot dog and sauerkraut and a potato knish. It was all fine, none of us were troubled with ideas of converting the others. If my neighbors turned Catholic, then their stores would be closed on Sundays too. What a blessing, when Christmas Eve fell on a Sunday, to be able to traipse to 13th Avenue, and revel in the luxurious feeling of doing something illicit.
It occurs to me now that Christmas Eve couldn’t have fallen on too many Sundays in my youth, but that was how I perceived it.
We sang “They Shall Know We are Christians By Our Love,” so we did know we were Christians; but as far as identifying ourselves as such; I would no sooner identify myself as a Christian, than I would an Existentialist Buddhist, if such a things exists.
The one exception was when we would describe something as the chrisian thing to do. The small “c” was not an indication of ignorance, but rather because this behavior was not limited to a specific religion or denomination. Rather, it pointed more to a way of treating others that stressed kindness and compassion; a sort of moral high road. Now,of course, this would be considered as slighting other religions, but it wasn’t meant as such. It could equally have been thought of as being a good Jew or Baptist or Buddhist, or just a good human being; and a positive reflection of whatever you believed in; even if it was the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
Lately, though, christian or Christian is evoking an image of something else entirely. Seventeenth century Salem, Massachusetts is one thing that comes to mind.
If we’re looking at kindness and tolerance towards others as a benchmark for identifying Christians, then I think quite a few of them must have gone into witness protection. In too many places, there are none to be found.
Everyone: please read Marci Macdonald’s The Armageddon Factor, detailing how the Canadian and American religious right-wing are intentionally acting to “be wise as serpents and harmless as doves” (Preston Manning, former head of Canada’s Reform Party, and guide to PM Harper, p.108). Is guile the way? People practising love with guile sit on their hands and teach their kids to sit back and do nothing, say nothing, and turn away. And then beg forgiveness for their sin afterwards. I get tired of Christians using their being forgiven as justification for sinning. That doesn’t bring a dead boy back.
Marci Macdonald’s The Armageddon Factor details how the Canadian and American religious right-wing are intentionally acting to “be wise as serpents and harmless as doves” (Preston Manning, former head of Canada’s Reform Party, and guide to PM Harper, p.108). Is guile the way? People practicing love with guile sit on their hands and teach their kids to sit back and do nothing, say nothing, and turn away. And then beg forgiveness for their sin afterwards. I get tired of Christians using their being forgiven as justification for sinning even more. That doesn’t bring a dead boy back.
OMG I am so glad you didn’t pussy foot around with the Jesus holier than thou L.R.
I live in the bible belt, I get counseling to deal with my anger at the two faced, forked tongued nonsense that comes from these “conservatives”. Most “Christians” hang Christ on the cross daily. Christ kept saying, love and forgive, I say stop drop the stones L.R.!!! Hate in your heart kills the gay christ.
I just heard the “It Gets Better” campaign mentioned on Larry King. Last week there were a few interviews on CNN where it was brought up. This campaign is really getting some attention.
Dan, for the most part I agree and find great entertainment with most of your rants and raves. But regarding people of faith with their stance against gay marriage as perpetrators of violence against young homosexuals in schools is just wrong. I for one was brought up in a VERY conservative household, went to Catholic church every Sunday and heard my mother and religious educators tell me that homosexuality was against the church’s beliefs. But you know what?! I HAVE MY OWN BRAIN!!! I decided MYSELF that I don’t believe what they do. Gay couples SHOULD be able to get married. I ended up befriending lots of homosexuals in my school life and thereafter. All I’m saying is that by YOU insisting that religions opposed to gay marriage are supporting violence against young homosexuals is like saying music with violent lyrics are responsible for crime. People can think for themselves. Just think about it…
@234,
The marriage-is-a-religious-concept line is a big fat lie. I’m an atheist; my husband is agnostic. Our secular wedding ceremony was performed by a Humanist celebrant, but it didn’t have to be performed by anyone. Simply signing the papers legalized the marriage. Note that I said MARRIAGE, not civil union. We are MARRIED, and no one ever challenges that designation because we happen to be straight. So why can’t gays have the same right? It doesn’t make sense to say don’t call it marriage because marriage is religious when atheists get married all the time! Marriage is a civil contract. If churches want to perform weddings (or refuse to perform them), that’s fine but that is NOT what makes a couple married. Legalization is what makes a union a marriage. It is a legal right, not merely a religious matter. There is no excuse not to extend this right to gay couples.
For LR If your don’t like LGBT people then just do’t have anything to do with US we probablly don’t want anything to do with you. I don’t mean to be rude but if it comes out that way sorry. But about the faith thingy that you were talking about I really hope that you don’t think that the Lord depises LGBT’s because He created us ALL DIFFERENTLY and He loves US ALL that way. And think about it if we were all created equal then that would really suck to have sex with the same person,the same way and the same all the time.
@246 Get some like-minded friends of yours together and check out the faith or religion section of your local newspaper. See if they are looking for columnists or if there are opportunities to write letters or online comments. You might want to check out Sojournors at http://www.sojo.net/ Maybe there is some useful info there.
Another voice to the chorus that there are not only “good” Christians out there, but “good” churches. The church my mom goes to is a “More Light” church… meaning they’re explicitly in favor of, well, treating gay people pretty much like straight people.
And, my mother pointed out that…stating or implying that all Christians are anti-gay is, well, pretty insulting to the gay Christians out there…
@Anne77 – Please read any of the books by Marcus Borg, an Episcopalian and Jesus scholar who believes that the Bible was written by regular people at a certain time in history reflecting their understanding and mores at that time. The Bible is not for the most part “factual” but it does contain Truth. As with the Bible’s acceptance of such things as slavery, the anti-homosexual passages can be seen as just plain wrong. As human beings continue to evolve, our understanding of these Truths continue, albeit painfully slowly. God has given us the ability to reason and there is much beauty and important messages, and Truth, in the Bible. I am hopeful that the Emerging Church will be the face of the Christian Church of the future.
For everyone saying there is no such thing as a good christian, here’s an entry in the It Gets Better project:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPZ5eUrNF…
I’m not a religious person, but there ARE homosexuals that are. It’s just dickish to pretend that you know what will make everyone in world happy.
I’m sorry, but the injunctions in Leviticus are more than just “ritually unclean” and unkosher; a few pages later it states that the penalty for a man having gay sex is death. (It doesn’t say anything about women in there.) *If* you decide you’re going to believe that everything in the Bible is the truth and you’re going to follow Jewish law on everything (including the no-mixed-fibers shirt business), then ya gotta buy that.
OR, like most sensible people, you figure out that, okay, whoever wrote and edited that part of the Bible was a flaming homophobe and you’re not buying into that, just like you’re not buying into the death penalty for a child who strikes his father. We don’t do that these days, right? We don’t shun mixed-fiber garments; if we did Brooks Brothers would be out of business. We *all* pick and choose what part of the religion we’re going to follow and what part is antiquated nonsense. And while that prohibition is in the Bible for sure, and it’s real serious for sure, one can choose to follow it, and enforce it on others, OR NOT.
It doesn’t do any good to sugarcoat the stuff in the holy books. Those folks back then were making their way out of slavery across a desert, and they *were* homophobic, if for no better reason than that they needed to keep the birth rate way up. (Check out what happened to Onan.) That doesn’t mean that we have to either buy into that homophobia or pretend it wasn’t there. We have other, better options.
Peace,
Paul
I’m sorry, but the injunctions in Leviticus are more than just “ritually unclean” and unkosher; a few pages later it states that the penalty for a man having gay sex is death. (It doesn’t say anything about women in there.) *If* you decide you’re going to believe that everything in the Bible is the truth and you’re going to follow Jewish law on everything (including the no-mixed-fibers shirt business), then ya gotta buy that.
OR, like most sensible people, you figure out that, okay, whoever wrote and edited that part of the Bible was a flaming homophobe and you’re not buying into it, just like you’re not buying into the death penalty for a child who strikes his father. We don’t do that these days, right? We don’t shun mixed-fiber garments; if we did Brooks Brothers would be out of business. We *all* pick and choose what part of our particular religion we’re going to follow and what part is antiquated nonsense. And while that prohibition is in the Bible for sure, and it’s real serious for sure, one can choose to follow it, and enforce it on others, OR NOT.
It doesn’t do any good to sugarcoat the stuff in the holy books. Those folks back then were making their way out of slavery across a desert, and they *were* homophobic, if for no better reason than that they needed to keep the birth rate way up. (Check out what happened to Onan.) That doesn’t mean that we have to either buy into that homophobia or pretend it wasn’t there. We have other, better options.
Peace,
Paul
Sorry for the double post. The software put up both my original comments and the edited version. “To err is human, but if you really want to louse things up, you need a computer.”
Peace,
Paul
After hearing and reading your comments about gaykids being bullied?and commiting suicide?i honestly blame the” gay community” for pointing the finger at Christians rather than themselves!
I applaud your efforts Dan Savage, but left on it’s own, things don’t necessarily “Get Better” for LGBT youth facing bullying. The point is to fight to Make it Better and Stop Homophobia.
http://sherrytalksback.wordpress.com/201…
I applaud your efforts Dan Savage, but left on it’s own, things don’t necessarily “Get Better” for LGBT youth facing bullying. The point is to fight to Make it Better and Stop Homophobia.
http://sherrytalksback.wordpress.com/201…
According to Dr. Spitzer–an advocate for gays not being sexual deviants, people can ‘change’ their orientation.
So, I will agree that bullying is unjustifiable for an alleged orientation/preference. I wonder if it’s true that some of those teenagers may not have been gay but were ridiculed and harassed because it was believed that they were gay.
Teenage years are so tough. Most kids are so unsure of who they are and it doesn’t help to be labelled.
As for the teens that considered themselves gay and chose to kill themselves–it’s a shame. I remember when I was in highschool, there was a girl who killed herself because she felt she wasn’t popular enough. She wasn’t accepted into the crowd because of her average looks. I wish she had Jesus in her life. She would have accepted herself the way she was because Jesus loved her and still does because there is an after life. Don’t ask me how that’s possible or what proof I have. I know. It’s called Faith. My Faith also states that all suicide victims should not get a proper funeral and burial but I’m a rogue Christian. I kinda believe that God is love and is merciful. I believe that she’s an angel in Heaven.
I have to disagree about Christians being bad. Even the really ‘bad’ so called Christians realize that there is a higher power and none of us are without sin. That’s why we need our magic sky friend so badly.
Besides, all LGBT are not equal. There are members of your group that you’ll choose to shun because they’ve got
BO, or have a lazy eye or what have you. In other words, you’ll become perpetrators of the same diabolical vitriol you’re spewing against Christians. In other words, you’ll be considered bullies, too! Or you might be the victims of bullies in your crowd. Difficult to change human behavior and it looks like bullying is an insurmountable obstacle in our lives.
Just an aside, it feels like Christians are being persecuted. I say this because Muslims are known to publicly execute LGB people but no-one
dares criticize them.
I’d have more respect for Dan if he vehemently condemned the atrocity of beheadings, beatings, mutilations that Muslims assault their LGB people with on a regular and ongoing basis. I’d think he’d have balls but until then, he’s a stereotypically weak effeminate gay man to me.
Bla, bla, bla…Everybody wants everything. That’s what this comes down to.
The Christians want it all: the rules, the interpretations, the subordination, the creed, the faith, THE truth, the authority, the legacy, sovereignty over the whole fucking world if they could…
And the gays want everything no less: wanna be “out”, want to get married, have children, be respected, accepted, be taken in account, have all the rights, want to scream “I’m gay!” and not get clobbered, want to be proud, want to fuck around, want to be different but not treated differently, some even want to be christian – and gay.
And the kids these days…well, there’s just no saying what they don’t want and what they’re not getting.
And the blacks…who are never done with their list.
And than the immigrants…
And god knows who else, that I can’t even keep count of. So, not to make a long tale any longer, I just wanna tell you what I see. Don’t see no black or white or yellow or green, or gay, lesbian, drag, tranny, or christian, muslim, Greek fucking orthodox, or whatever… I just see people. And you’re ALL a bunch of megalomaniacs. There – equality accomplished by that one all-binding and unremovable human trait. Amen to that.