I heard an interview with you about your It Gets Better campaign. I was saddened and frustrated with your comments regarding people of faith and their perpetuation of bullying. As someone who loves the Lord and does not support gay marriage, I can honestly say I was heartbroken to hear about the young man who took his own life.
If your message is that we should not judge people based on their sexual preference, how do you justify judging entire groups of people for any other reason (including their faith)? There is no part of me that took any pleasure in what happened to that young man.
To that end, to imply that I would somehow encourage my children to mock, hurt, or intimidate another person for any reason is completely unfounded and offensive. Being a follower of Christ is, above all things, a recognition that we are all imperfect, fallible, and in desperate need of a savior. We cannot believe that we are better or more worthy than other people.
Please consider your viewpoint, and please be more careful with your words in the future.
L.R.
I’m sorry your feelings were hurt by my comments.
No, wait. I’m not. Gay kids are dying. So let’s try to keep things in perspective: Fuck your feelings.
A question: Do you “support” atheist marriage? Interfaith marriage? Divorce and remarriage? All are legal, all go against Christian and/or traditional ideas about marriage, and yet there’s no “Christian” movement to deny marriage rights to atheists or people marrying outside their respective faiths or people divorcing and remarrying. Why the hell not?
Sorry, L.R., but so long as you support the denial of marriage rights to same-sex couples, it’s clear that you do believe that some people—straight people—are “better or more worthy” than others.
And—sorry—but you are partly responsible for the bullying and physical violence being visited on vulnerable LGBT children. The kids of people who see gay people as sinful or damaged or disordered and unworthy of full civil equality—even if those people strive to express their bigotry in the politest possible way (at least when they happen to be addressing a gay person)—learn to see gay people as sinful, damaged, disordered, and unworthy. And while there may not be any gay adults or couples where you live, or at your church, or in your workplace, I promise you that there are gay and lesbian children in your schools. And while you can only attack gays and lesbians at the ballot box, nice and impersonally, your children have the option of attacking actual gays and lesbians, in person, in real time.
Real gay and lesbian children. Not political abstractions, not “sinners.” Gay and lesbian children.
Try to keep up: The dehumanizing bigotries that fall from the lips of “faithful Christians,” and the lies about us that vomit out from the pulpits of churches that “faithful Christians” drag their kids to on Sundays, give your children license to verbally abuse, humiliate, and condemn the gay children they encounter at school. And many of your children—having listened to Mom and Dad talk about how gay marriage is a threat to family and how gay sex makes their magic sky friend Jesus cry—feel justified in physically abusing the LGBT children they encounter in their schools. You don’t have to explicitly “encourage [your] children to mock, hurt, or intimidate” queer kids. Your encouragement—along with your hatred and fear—is implicit. It’s here, it’s clear, and we’re seeing the fruits of it: dead children.
Oh, and those same dehumanizing bigotries that fill your straight children with hate? They fill your gay children with suicidal despair. And you have the nerve to ask me to be more careful with my words?
Did that hurt to hear? Good. But it couldn’t have hurt nearly as much as what was said and done to Asher Brown and Justin Aaberg and Billy Lucas and Cody Barker and Seth Walsh—day in, day out for years—at schools filled with bigoted little monsters created not in the image of a loving God, but in the image of the hateful and false “followers of Christ” they call Mom and Dad.
I am engaged to a man whose sexual orientation is somewhat confusing to me.
A few months ago, I discovered transgender porn on his computer. When I asked him about it, he said he just watches all kinds of porn “just to watch it.” That sounded like total bullshit to me—and it was proved to be total bullshit when I discovered that he watches ONLY this type of porn. I also recently discovered a letter he had composed a few years back to another man asking him to “hook up.” The letter also states that my fiancé had a girlfriend, and since “discretion is very important” to him, he could only hook up when she was out of town.
I can deal with somebody being bisexual. I have bisexual fantasies myself. However, I can’t deal with someone lying to himself and to me, and being unfaithful. Sadly, I can’t really make this guy confess to me that he is bi. When I tried, he simply told me, “You are so blind.” What does that mean?
I really don’t want to dump the guy. I love him. My question is, I guess, what the fuck do I do? I feel like crazy bitch supreme trying to get this out of him, but it’s impossible not to think about.
Bitchy Girlfriend
There’s nothing to be confused about: Your fiancé is very clearly bisexual. Gay men just aren’t into chicks-with-dicks porn; that’s a genre that appeals exclusively to straight/straightish/bi male viewers.
So why can he be open about his cocksuckery with a complete stranger—that dude he sent the letter that you “discovered”—but not with you?
It’s a tired cliché, I realize, and I shy away from it for that reason, but in this case the shoe fits: Your fiancé has a bad case of the internalized homophobias. He finds it easier to be open with someone he doesn’t care about and is unlikely to see ever again precisely because he doesn’t care about that person and isn’t going to see him again. If you or the other people in his life he’s close to knew, he fears you would see him as damaged or inferior because that’s how he sees himself.
So, yep, a bad case of the internalized homophobias. He’s not entirely responsible for contracting this malady—our homophobic culture is the disease vector here—but, as an adult, he is responsible for working through it, for overcoming it, for being truthful with himself and the people he claims to love.
If he can’t be honest with you—the snoop he claims to love—about his sexual orientation, and if being cheated on is a deal breaker for you (and he will cheat on you), don’t marry him.
I’m a loud fucker, just like the partner of the woman who wrote in recently. With my consent, my partner uses a pillow to dampen my screams, so I don’t have to worry I’ll piss off the neighbors.
Lesbians Do Scream
It’s all fun and games—loud fun, ear-splitting games—until someone accidentally asphyxiates a screamer. But thanks for sharing, LDS.
“Sorry, L.R., but so long as you support the denial of marriage rights to same-sex couples, it’s clear that you do believe that some people—straight people—are “better or more worthy” than others.”
And as long as there are people out there who support the denial of a man’s right to engage in acts of lesbian sex or a Caucasian American’s right to be called an African American, it shall remain clear that our society hasn’t shaken off the belief that some people are “more female or more African than others.”
Please. I would support any proposed changes to the laws of my state which would amend the existing legal institution of “marriage” by extending its scope to include pairs of consenting adults of the same gender, along with those whose genders are opposite.
In other words, if my community as a whole decided that it wanted to extend not only the legal conventions associated with marriage (i.e. those relating to tax, next of kin benefits and responsibilities, etc) to cover same-sex partnerships, but that it also wanted to effect a de facto modification of the collective lexicon (via a modification of the legal lexicon, in regards to an institution whose provision, and therefore whose lexical determination, is subject to government monopoly), I would support such a change.
But let’s be honest about this: the top-down imposition of a modification in the collective lexical conventions surrounding the terminology relating to the (rather ancient) tradition of “marriage” is the only objective unique to the same-sex marriage movement, beyond a movement aimed at securing the universality of legally parallel (but differently-named) domestic partnerships.
Couching the movement in the terms of the Civil Rights movement is intellectually sloppy at best. At worst, it is a cynical attempt to portray all opponents as bigots.
“Separate but equal” carried substantive legal implications during the civil rights era—two kids living in the same public school district would have been consigned to attending two different schools, perhaps differing greatly in any given measure of quality, only because of differences in skin color. Thus the two separate institutions, to which the law differentially assigned these two kids solely on the basis of race, may have been far from equal in many legally significant senses.
Alternatively, if “domestic partnerships” with the full legal force of “marriages” were made universal, the two institutions would be TRULY separate but equal. Which brings me back to my second paragraph…
The oft-heard comparisons between the civil rights movement and the same-sex marriage movement (as distinct from a movement to universalize domestic partnerships) would be merited if the civil rights movement had sought to erase ethnic classifications altogether, mandating not only that “Caucasian” and “African-American” kids not be assigned to different public schools on the basis of race, but also that they must all be classified as “Caucasian Americans.” Proponents of same-sex marriage, after all, insist that same-sex partners not only be allowed to enter into institutions which not only enjoy identical legal treatment as those occupied by opposite-sex partners, but that the same word be used to refer to all such partnerships.
Now back to the denial of lesbian sex rights. A consenting male adult has the legal right to engage in sexual activities of his choosing with a consenting adult partner—since 2003, anyway. But to say that he has a right to engage in lesbian sex would just be silly. In this example, it should be obvious that there are no “rights” involved, but only a contradiction in the terms used. Invoking the idea of rights here would make sense only if the legal meaning of the term “lesbian sex” were to change, such that it became sufficiently general to refer to all sexual activities. At that point, every consenting adult would have a legal “right” to engage in “lesbian sex.”
But, given present lexical conventions, to assert that a man’s “lesbian sex rights” are being denied would be an absurdity, regardless of specific context. And, according to present (legal and broader societal) conventions regarding the term “marriage,” it is similarly silly to insist that a same-sex couple’s “marriage rights” are violated if they are able to enter into a legally recognized partnership which carries the full legal force of marriage, but is called something different.
That is not to say that there is anything wrong with having community-wide conversations about changing lexical conventions—language is, after all, a highly dynamic set of arbitrarily related symbols and predicates. And domestic partnerships with the full legal force of marriage are presently far from universal in the USA, so there is certainly room for continued advocacy in the furtherance of this cause.
But for god’s sake, if the sakes of intellectual clarity and honesty aren’t quite good enough, please quit with the gay marriage-civil rights comparisons which implicitly equate the two movements, as they are substantively quite dissimilar; and let’s talk start talking about why we believe that same-sex and opposite-sex unions should both be called marriages, rather than lobbing out crude assertions of “denial of marriage rights.”
@216 – I’ve been saying that for years. It’s good to know there are two of us now.
This is your typical rubish from Savage. Who conviniently ignores the fact that all sorts of people get bullied. But I guess that to acknowledge it would be interfere with Savage’s need to play the victim, and his own anti-Christian bigotry.
Yep, same old nonsense from Dan Savage. I saw a video from him on Youtube where he claims to have read the Bible ‘cover to cover’. Well if that is the case he must have read how the Bible speaks out against drunkeness, adultery, fornication and laziness. But strangely these people don’t get beaten up. Not sure why LR wrote him saying her/his feelings were hurt. Anyone familiar with Savage will know that he’s unpleasant and obnoxious.Dan Savage is attention seeking anti-Christian bigot.
Yep, same old nonsense from Dan Savage. I saw a video from him on Youtube where he claims to have read the Bible ‘cover to cover’. Well if that is the case he must have read how the Bible speaks out against drunkeness, adultery, fornication and laziness. But strangely these people don’t get beaten up. Dan Savage is attention seeking anti-Christian bigot
Dan, THANK YOU for saying this [taking soi-disant “loving Christians” to task for the consequences of their insitutiionalized homophobia]. Children killing themselves is the result, and if they REALLY don’t want to contribute to kids being bullied into suicide, they shouldn’t be homophobic, and have no business denying gay Americans the right to marry whom they choose.
I’ve been reading your articles for years now. I must say you’re absolutely brillant. I only wish everyone were as strong as you are with your voiceful thoughts and views. Hate crimes MUST come to a stop. OUR YOUTH NEEDS BETTER GUIDANCE! And it is people like YOU who make a difference. You have a voice for those who are too afraid to speak. You are the gay communities fearless leader, and I wish you the best. If it weren’t for people like you, there would be no hope.
Thank you,
Patty from Pittsburgh
For LGBT teens, in addition to “it gets better,” which it does, another message: don’t give the assholes the satisfaction. What they want is a world with no queers in it. Just by staying here, you’re depriving them of what they want. I remember a rabbi in Nashville who wrote in response to a Christian minister who called for increased efforts to convert Jews. He said there is undoubtedly a vast difference in their methods, but the ultimate goal of modern Christians is no different from that of the Nazis: a world with no Jews. Same goes for modern Christians and queers. They want us all to disappear, whether through suicide, “ex-gay” therapy, whatever works. Stick around and piss ’em off.
not sure if you know about this yet dan but I thought you should…a school that is encouraging bullying of gay students by putting out a msg that being openly gay is wrong… http://gayrights.change.org/blog/view/ar…
Towards LR: The truth shall set you free! Maybe by bitch-slapping you through a wall or two of your ignorance, but, still, free. Bravo, Dan!
I want to echo the support and applause for your letter to LR. Your compassion for these isolated children is so inspiring. After reading your letter I folowed through on my earlier idea to forward your response, and the links to the It Gets Better Project, to my gay twin sister asking her to contribute a video, as well as an email to a few members of the Safe Schools Project that operates in Portland, OR, working towards lessening bullying towards GLBTQ kids in school. I wanted to tell you that your voice and message not only reaches the deaf “followers of Christ” like LR, but also the Christians and non-Christians and would-be activists who recognize the truth of what you’re saying, the desperate isolation and need of these kids to hear and see positive gay role models. Your work is inspiring not only new thought in some, but real action in others and letting the kids who need to hear it most realize that they are not alone. Thank you.
Bravo.
There’s a key fact this dingbat letter-writer skips. She chose her religion. Even if it’s ‘what she was brought up with’, as people often excuse their hate, it’s something she chose to accept rather than reject.
So to equate someone attacking the actions of her Church with physically attacking gay teens, or queer hate speech, is literally insane. It shows what she’s been told about lgbt people making “choices” about their lives as well.
I will not begrudge anyone they’re religion. I certainly have my spiritual moments where all I want is a Torah and a prayer shawl and a community. And there’s a reason excommunication used to be a big deal- for lots of people religion is their main community, which is certainly a human need.
However, I will begrudge people “hate”. I attack some denominations of my religion for their stances and practices, too- they may say “hate the sin, love the sinner”, but labeling someone a “sinner” for their existence leads to a sense of “it’s ok to think that some people don’t deserve respect.”
I want to note that a friend of mine mentioned that so much teen suicide goes unnoticed, and she resented that it was only when it was lgbt teens and hate crimes that it became big news. On the one hand, I see what she means- I was harassed terribly in school. To the point where I felt bad for the teachers who had to have me in class.The antisemitism part was just as bad from teachers as students. And my home life was abusive as well. I still have real damage, both physical and emotional, from what I went through. And you bet there were suicide attempts.
But here’s the thing: it SHOULD be news that kids are harassing each other to this extent, as well as the fact that hate and homophobia are so on the rise. Expecting kids to “grow up” so young has not worked. Because ALL it’s done is made things inhuman. Everything is just unilateral rules and codes and standardization.
College entrance gets more competitive to where my 31 year old sister who graduated Magna Cum Laude from Brown could never have gotten in now, because the process has nothing to do with intellect, but formatting CVs and training to apply the right way.
We’ve built huge industries on making sure that there is no aspect of life that is based on who an individual is, and assessing and praising or helping them based on that. And the educational realm is one of the saddest examples. Add that to the early-onset of physical maturity and increased adreinaline that they’re brain isn’t yet physically ready for- and it’s not surprising that they don’t see anyone, even themselves, as human, and therefore intrinsically deserving of love and respect.
I also say to those teens being bullied: “It gets better” doesn’t dismiss your pain now. That is valid too- we’re so often told that things that affect us when we’re young don’t matter- that until you’re an adult, nothing you do or feel has any effect.
But your hurt is valid, and your anger. It will get better, but only if you don’t also judge yourself for hurting, and keep enough distance to see that there WOULD be something wrong with you if you didn’t care- you’d be just as callous as them.
Of course, you also have to remember that they’re young too, and under influences they probably don’t realize they’re under. Their actions matter a whole lot more, but you’ll keep your sanity a little better if you remember that we’re all human. even the bad ones.
Heroic. Beautiful. In love with you, and your movement.
Dude, I want to buy you and your partner and your little kid lunch. You’re awesome.
Seattle and the world are better having you in them.
Dude, I want to buy you and your partner and your little kid lunch. You’re awesome.
Seattle and the world are better having you in them.
Thank you so much for starting the “It gets better series.” I know people who have started their own independent version because of it, and I believe its doing a lot of good. Wish someone had been there to tell me it gets better when I got expelled from high school for being gay.
In reading these comments I’m seeing a lot of people attack bigotry with bigotry. Real classy.
When a Christian tells you they support gay marrage and gay adoption you tell them to fuck off. When a Christian tells you Christ told us not to judge but to love one another, you tell them to fuck off. When a Christian says a true translation of the offending passages isn’t even close to what the haters recite, you tell them to fuck off.
I’ve even seen comments saying “good Christians” need to accept this vile behavior because of the sins of others. By this logic Pat Robertson has the right to hold gay people and their supporters responsible for the behavior of any gay person who has molested a child.
You can’t have it both ways.
Almost forgot: All the asshole-Christians out there need to shut the fuck up and read their damn Bible or once. Not just read it, but study it thoroughly. Use more than one translation. Study Hebrew and/or Greek if it helps.
Your fuckery is making it harder for those of us who get it.
@JustWroteALongEssay
For a real wordy, back-patting dude trying to come off sounding like he knows it all, you really ought to check your facts. Domestic partnerships are legal in New Jersey with all the rights and benefits of marriage. And guess what…big surprise…turns out without it being called marriage, it’s different. So yeah, to be equal, it has to be equal.
http://www.civilunionsdontwork.com/
@YayDanSavage
“wordy” is fair…hence the name I chose for myself. But I don’t see how any fact-checking is called for here, as I never claimed that domestic partnerships have not yet been established anywhere–just that they are presently far from universal in the USA.
Otherwise, my main point was just that sloppy arguments don’t help anyone.
Personally, I’d love to see same-sex marriages become legal in every state in the US–but I don’t believe that embracing the rather popular (sadly) tendency to portray any undesirable legislative stance as a civil rights violation is bringing us any closer to that goal. All it does is make everyone a little bit dumber and sharply reinforce awareness of group identity distinctions.
There you go, people should stop bullying gays and start bullying Christians. That will work. ?? Jesus (if you believe), made the Jewish laws of the OT obsolete. He promoted social justice and equality. I want to go back to school to become a social worker. Most of my desire comes from the example of Jesus. He saw something special in everyone. I too see something special in all the people I work with in both a job teaching dance and volunteering with teenage moms. I have commited several of the sins that he told us not to do (and he never mentions anything about homosexuality BTW). Who am I to judge anyone? I also teach my kids to not be judgemental. Love your neighbor as yourself. That is what I try to do above all.
I am ANTI-bullying. Not gays, not Christians, not anyone just because you don’t understand or agree with who they are.
I’m sick and tired of all of you.
Kill me now so I don’t have to deal with your hate.
It doesn’t matter who I am, what my sexual orientation is, what my religion is, what the color of my skin is.
I’d still rather die than have to experience, see, feel everyone’s hatred every day for the rest of my life.
At 325: Count me out of that “all of you”. I’m sorry you’re experiencing such hatred right now, I just don’t want to be included amongst the haters when I don’t even know who you are. Chances are you’re cool, and I feel bad you’re in such pain. I hope you can connect with people who support you and that you can realize that the assholes who are making you miserable right now don’t own the world.
Hey Dan, why not start a movement for all the fat kids that are tormented by their peers, torment that you are “partially responsible” for because of your anti-fat comments. You could call said program: “It NEVER gets better”.
I have finally had it. I can’t sit back and watch this anymore. I have to say what I have to say, and although some of the language I use may not line up with my belief system, oh well, thems the breaks. God is either going to forgive me of turn me into a pile of lightning-struck goo. So here goes…
Many years ago, when I was 9 years old, I was forceably fucked up the ass by a gay (possibly bi) foster brother. I didn’t want to do it, it was forced on me. I was threatened that if I told anyone, I would be hurt badly. I kept silent for about a year after I left the foster home, then reported it. They investigated, but nothing happened. They apparently didn’t believe me, or there wasn’t enough evidence. I have no idea where my attacker is today. Last I heard (20 years ago), he’d moved to northeastern Washington. For all I know, he’s up there fucking deer.
What he did to me screwed me up for life. I am constantly battered by thoughts that I am worthless, damaged goods. What it also did was instill in me an absolute utter HATRED for homosexuals. Can you blame me? I defy, I DARE you to tell me that what happened to me was a good thing. I was fucking anally RAPED, people! And here is this whole section of society, trying to cram down my throat that the acts perpetrated on me are GOOD, and WONDERFUL, and worthy of my ACCEPTANCE? Well, excuse me, people. I was HURT by it. I was DAMAGED by it. And if you think I’m just going to sit by and say “Oh, that’s okay. What happened to me isn’t important.”, then you are SADLY FUCKING MISTAKEN!!! Not once in 39 years since then have I heard so much as an “I’m sorry for what happened to you”. Sadly, I don’t think anyone ever will.
Sorry, but your bullshit doesn’t fly with me. I have a RIGHT for my anger. I DEFY you to tell me I don’t! PROVE that I don’t. You can’t!
In the meantime, shut the fuck up about your so-called ‘rights’. Unless someone wants to tell me “I’m genuinely sorry”, I don’t want to hear it.
I have finally had it. I can’t sit back and watch this anymore. I have to say what I have to say, and although some of the language I use may not line up with my belief system, oh well, thems the breaks. God is either going to forgive me of turn me into a pile of lightning-struck goo. So here goes…
Many years ago, when I was 9 years old, I was forceably fucked up the ass by a gay (possibly bi) foster brother. I didn’t want to do it, it was forced on me. I was threatened that if I told anyone, I would be hurt badly. I kept silent for about a year after I left the foster home, then reported it. They investigated, but nothing happened. They apparently didn’t believe me, or there wasn’t enough evidence. I have no idea where my attacker is today. Last I heard (20 years ago), he’d moved to northeastern Washington. For all I know, he’s up there fucking deer.
What he did to me screwed me up for life. I am constantly battered by thoughts that I am worthless, damaged goods. What it also did was instill in me an absolute utter HATRED for homosexuals. Can you blame me? I defy, I DARE you to tell me that what happened to me was a good thing. I was fucking anally RAPED, people! And here is this whole section of society, trying to cram down my throat that the acts perpetrated on me are GOOD, and WONDERFUL, and worthy of my ACCEPTANCE? Well, excuse me, people. I was HURT by it. I was DAMAGED by it. And if you think I’m just going to sit by and say “Oh, that’s okay. What happened to me isn’t important.”, then you are SADLY FUCKING MISTAKEN!!! Not once in 39 years since then have I heard so much as an “I’m sorry for what happened to you”. Sadly, I don’t think anyone ever will.
Sorry, but your bullshit doesn’t fly with me. I have a RIGHT for my anger. I DEFY you to tell me I don’t! PROVE that I don’t. You can’t!
In the meantime, shut the fuck up about your so-called ‘rights’. Unless someone wants to tell me “I’m genuinely sorry”, I don’t want to hear it.
“I’m sorry, but there are no “good Christians.” The so-called good Christians are what make the bad Christians possible, by supporting an evil, bigoted book, and going along with a historical and cultural tradition that has caused immense suffering over 2000 years.
If you think of yourself as a “good Christian” who supports gay rights, please do yourself and the rest of us a favor and read a little about your religion and its history. Then actually read your holy book. Read every single word and come back and tell us you’re a good Christian.
As much as I hate bigoted, anti-gay Christians, at least they’re honest about what their spiritual teachers and the writers of their holy book say. And it’s pretty clearly not in support of gay rights.”
Just wanted to say this statement from Blackrose is dangerously ignorant and intolerant.
I am, personally, atheist/agnostic, but I find this comment to be irresponsible. Here – let’s change a few words and see how it looks now:
—
I’m sorry, but there are no “good Muslims.” The so-called good Muslims are what make the bad Muslims possible, by supporting an evil, bigoted book, and going along with a historical and cultural tradition that has caused immense suffering over 2000 years.
If you think of yourself as a “good Muslim” who supports human rights, please do yourself and the rest of us a favor and read a little about your religion and its history. Then actually read your holy book. Read every single word and come back and tell us you’re a good Muslim.
As much as I hate Muslim extremists, at least they’re honest about what their spiritual teachers and the writers of their holy book say. And it’s pretty clearly not in support of human rights.
@Black Rose
I’m a non-Christian who believe you can be a good, gay-loving Christian. I don’t believe EVERYTHING my good book says, but that doesn’t mean I don’t believe at all. It’s not all or nothing. I know it was written by man, not by God, and man has a way of villifying things. So, I pray, I fast, I am kind to others, I believe that all people are equal and God doesn’t condemn people for their sexual preference…and I know many Christians in this great, truly free country of Canada who believe the same thing.
Oh yeah, and our beer is WAY better 🙂
“good” and “religion”
hahahahaha
Really.
History of human beings: Create something to follow
Egyptians, Greeks, etc
I mean really? You are whatever religion you are because your parents were. So should you be a whatever profession they were too?
Every culture has created some form of religion throughout history.
This version has taken over because they figured out the fear aspect of it. Believe or spend eternity watching Glen Beck shows, or burning in hell.
come on people,
think
what good has come?
wars
bigotry
poverty (go look at the Vatican, and then realize how many people starve to death in the world – ridiculous)
think
control, that is all. you are a fool to think otherwise.
have you ‘seen’ one scrap of proof in you life that ANY of these stories are true?
control works in mysterious ways
take your life back
@Ironclad
I’m sorry for what happened to you.
That was rape, nothing else. It doesn’t make homosexual sex wrong though. Just like the countless man-on-woman rapes every day make straight sex wrong. They make rape wrong. Consenting sex, gay or straight, is not wrong. Rape is not consent.
Again, I am truly sorry for what happened to you, no child, no teen, no adult deserves to be forced to perform any kind of sex act. I hope you find a way to stop hurting.
I married a man 40 or so years ago whom I thought was straight – true times were different back then, but the societal pressures still unfortunately exist that encourage some people to hide their sexuality.
Your advice to the woman engaged to the confused or homophobic man was right on. In addition I would like to say to her – she is not a bitch for digging deeper, protecting herself and being smart about the situation. I still love my ex husband and the father of my children, but I don’t want to be married to him nor he to me. He has been exclusively in gay relationships ever since we split in the early 70’s.
One more thought – I believe your strong language, Dan, is called for (you are obviously passionate on the subject) and it does not offend me, however, if you are trying to
ease the suffering of these young people and change people’s behavior – I would guess the language is offensive to just the people
whose minds we are trying to change.
In turn that allows them to dismiss the important part of the message.
All I can say is, if Dan and those commenting here are even relatively representative of the homosexual community, then it is a very good thing that the second amendment is enshrined in the bill of rights. Keep that in mind if or when you guys finally do gain power and show up at the doors of those who do not “approve.”
This forum gives credence to the opinion that homosexuals are radically dangerous freaks.
As a gay man and the son of a preacherman, I was extremely disappointed in the way the “GAY KIDS ARE DYING, FUCK YOUR FEELINGS” letter was handled. It truly could have been an opportunity to open a legitimate dialogue between the gay community and the Christian community, which needs to happen in order for things to get better.
This US VS. THEM mentality hasn’t EVER been productive.
Not all of the “faithful Christians” cling to “dehumanizing bigotries” and it just isn’t fair to say that. It seems that you have a pulpit, Dan Savage. You have a voice and can reach so many people with a message of hope for the future. But what I read in this column today was a missed opportunity written with bitter subtext. The “faithful Christians” are never going to agree with us and they don’t have to. We need a way to reconcile Christianity and homosexuality – Tammy Faye style. She was a gay advocate who didn’t support marriage rights.
It’s not responsible to encourage “mocking, hurting or intimidating” on EITHER side.
We’re all in this together. The Bible even has a verse that can be used as a direct message to these gay, Christian kids who are conflicted about what they’ve been told and who they are: “For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the LORD, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.” – Jeremiah 29:11
What little sympathy I had has vaporized after reading many of the comments. I think Psychiatry had it right up until 1973 when it treated homosexuality as an illness. The comments here convince me,that more than a mental illness, homosexuality is most likely demoniacally induced.Hate God and die in your sins. You get to choose.
According to the CDC’s Youth Risk Behavior Survey, “Gay students are more than twice as likely to report having had sexual intercourse before age 13 — that is, to be sexually abused as children. They are three times as likely to report being the victims of dating violence, and nearly four times as likely to report forced sexual contact. A majority of LGBT teens in Massachusetts reported using illegal drugs in the last month. (Perhaps most oddly, gay teens are also three times as likely as non-gay teens to report either becoming pregnant or getting someone else pregnant.)”
Maybe being made fun of isn’t the reason for gay suicide rates. In fact, maybe being gay is a result of abuse, and maybe gay suicide rates are an effect of being gay.
Not sure why this comment didn’t make it, but here it is again…
According to the CDC’s (the Center for Disease Contol) Youth Risk Behavior Survey, Gay students are also more than twice as likely to report having had sexual intercourse before age 13 — that is, to be sexually abused as children. They are three times as likely to report being the victims of dating violence, and nearly four times as likely to report forced sexual contact. A majority of LGBT teens in Massachusetts reported using illegal drugs in the last month. (Perhaps most oddly, gay teens are also three times as likely as non-gay teens to report either becoming pregnant or getting someone else pregnant.)
Maybe being made fun of isn’t the real reason for gay suicide rates. In fact, maybe abuse is the reason many turn gay, and maybe gay suicide rates are a result of being gay.
Ranger Rick: CLEARLY, you were never bullied as a young person. Bullying, the mob mentality, is terrifying. You can be afraid to leave the house, become depressed, avoid social contact & start to believe your tormentors are right; you must be not worth anything, because so many other (clearly better, more successful) people, are saying you’re a loser.
I’d like to see your statistics about gay teens using more drugs than straight teens, but having been a teenager once who had bullying/harassment problems in school, lemme tell ya: it wasn’t because I was bi, that I was miserable. It was because there was a whole culture in Catholic high school that encouraged the bullying of anyone who was different, and even the alleged support structure – administration & teachers – sided w/ the bullies, who were sports stars w/ school board parents.
I dunno if being made fun of* (which you make sound like no big thing) is THE reason for the serious spike in recent gay teen suicides, but the level of harassment that kids torture each other with these days is way worse than when I was in school. The internet makes it possible for bullies to follow kids wherever they go, and it was ‘net access that pushed poor Tyler Clementi over the edge to suicide, as well.
Kids make fun of what they perceive as different or threatening; being gay is different. It’s a parent’s job to teach their child how to live with differences, as there are a lot of them out there in the world. Parents who even subtly suggest that being gay is somehow lesser, a bad thing, something they would be disappointed in their kid being, perpetuate hate by sending young people into the world who think that way.
Dan’s angry words are provoked by the agony he must feel when he reads yet another child took their life because of bullying, or isolation; & although there are some very cool Christians who are reaching out to everyone with open arms, sadly, the ones who have the megahorn right now are the neo-cons who claim to love the sinner, but not the sin. ’cause they’re saying gay love is a SIN. See how that works? & we won’t even address the outright homophobes.
Dan must be remembering what he went through as a young ‘un. He’s pissed. Other than railing at him for abuse of his pulpit, what are any of you who claim to be the good kinda Christians doing to change attitudes about acceptance of gays as full, equal human beings in your communities & in your churches? You, personally, what are you doing? ’cause if you think you don’t know anyone gay (or lesbian, bi or transgender), statistics say you are wrong.
—–
* being made fun of may include being beat up, pushed into lockers, sent hate mail, being cyberstalked, having pictures or intimate video of you/you & a partner posted online, being outed to family, etc.
Eva, I’m sorry, but I do know what it’s like to be bullied, and know people who are gay. My brother is gay. Your point that Dan is angry doesn’t allay my fear that he’s a narrow-minded whack job. Niether does it give me any comfort with the rest of the posters in this forum and in many other forums that I have read. The homosexual community that is represented in forums such as this one tells me that it is prudent and necessary to guard my family and myself from them and their imbalanced, crazy view of the world. Dan and his disciples have made it very clear that they believe that there is no distinction between people that believe that homosexual behavior is immoral and people that hate homosexuals – and he’s on a crusade. A crusade against me, my faith, my family, my friends and my community. Fine.
The CDC report does, in fact, give clear evidence that the accusations of bigotry is not the primary cause of gay suicides. But you guys don’t want to examine the evidence because you don’t care about the people who are killing themselves. Your motivation is to use their deaths as a political wedge to demonize everyone who does not embrace homosexuality. In reality, the homosexual political machine wants more deaths so that they can have more to accuse us of. They would be disappointed if the deaths ended today.
In short, you’re a bunch of dangerous, crazy, frauds.
I AM ASKING YOU TO GIVE ME LINKS THAT PROVE WHAT YOU SAY. Frustratingly, I looked for hard data, not some political site when Googling gay teen suicide, and whether one the “gays are more at risk for suicide” or the “those stats are bogus” side, separate stats that were cold hard evidence of gay teen suicide versus straight teen suicide were hard to find. All the info I found at the CDC website gave a generalized breakdown:
http://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/dataan…
Please link me to these statistics that show gay kids are more likely to knock someone up, also.
RangerRick: I am not gonna give you the heated empty argument you crave. Clearly you relish a debate, otherwise you wouldn’t be responding in an atmosphere that clashes with your views.
*I* am not a crazy fraud. I live honestly, am good to others, don’t lie about who I am & how DARE you tell me I don’t care about these kids killing themselves. That could have been me. It tears me up. I don’t have a homosexual agenda; I have an agenda of, kids are dying. Kids are dying because other kids bully them. & who is it who puts the thoughts int he bullies’ heads? Their parents. Where do parents get the idea that homosexuality is immoral? Their church. How do we stop the kids from feeling hopeless? By assuring them that not everyone thinks that they way that they are made, the way that they are wired is “immoral”. They have no more control over their preference than you do.
Your brother is gay, and you believe homosexual behavior is immoral. You believe that your brother, who was born the way he is, his actions are immoral.
Wow, that’s ludicrous, and laughable. I feel sorry for your brother.
Bigotry DOES CAUSE hate; hate DOES CAUSE bullying and harassment. Don’t believe me? These are “nice” ordinary high school kids, and their Facebook page:
http://imgur.com/hdbn8
So..being gay is a choice. OK. When did you choose to be, your-God-approved, straight?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJtjqLUHY…
& these kids think that being gay, if you “choose” it, means you deserve punishment. I’m sure their parents think as you do: those gays are crazy & dangerous. Better keep my family safe from them.
Kids with that attitude bring hate to the schools. Kids who feel the hate & pressure sometimes don’t get the support they need to make it through another day. Sorry, but if your God endorses that view, if your God is that intolerant, then I’d think I am not the crazy & dangerous person who doesn’t care about the kids who are dying.
Clearly everyone else here hasn’t bothered to engage you as you have made up your mind what everyone else here has to say. But a non-political, plain’ ol newspaper in Utah has an article perhaps you should read:
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/505185…
Also:
“he Salt Lake City-based Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has been the target of anger from lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender advocacy groups after its high-profile role in passing the Proposition 8 gay-marriage ban in California and, more recently, a sermon by senior apostle Boyd K. Packer.
Speaking at the church’s semiannual General Conference this month, Packer referred to same-sex attraction as “impure and unnatural.” “
***
“Homosexuality is Satan’s diabolical attack upon the family that will not only have a corrupting influence upon our next generation, but it will also bring down the wrath of God upon America.” – Jerry Falwell
***
“All homosexuals should be castrated.” -Billy Graham
***
“If the world accepts homosexuality as its norm and if it moves the entire world in that regard, the whole world is then going to be sitting like Sodom and Gomorrah before a Holy God.” – Pat Robertson
***
Speaking about Prop 8, popular Saddleback Church pastor Rick Warren:
” RICK WARREN: But the issue to me is, I’m not opposed to that as much as I’m opposed to the redefinition of a 5,000-year definition of marriage. I’m opposed to having a brother and sister be together and call that marriage. I’m opposed to an older guy marrying a child and calling that a marriage. I’m opposed to one guy having multiple wives and calling that marriage.
STEVEN WALDMAN: Do you think, though, that they are equivalent to having gays getting married?
RICK WARREN: Oh I do. … “
***
““I’m here to talk about sexual ethics from a Christian point of view,” he said. “I believe homosexuality is an abnormal lifestyle.” — Pastor Green of the Pentecostal Church
***
Pastor Bethel says that homosexuality is not a civil right and that no society needs homosexual coupling.
He goes on to say, “[Bahamians] are not fooled by suggestions that homosexuality is normal and will fight vigorously to defend this country from further infiltration”.
Pastor Bethel says Thompson failed to grasp what is really happening with homosexuality in The Bahamas for the past few decades.
***********************************
Each of these quotes was easy to find, I Googled pastor quotes about homosexuality. A pastor is someone who holds himself up as a spiritual leader. None of these leaders sound like they are tolerant, or loving. If my preacher in my church, when I was a teen, had said any of these things, I shudder to think what my worldview would be like now, or how I would have felt if the God I believed in then, didn’t love me as I was.
Soooo –
if God is love, then his messengers are getting it wrong. & that getting it wrong bleeds through onto our children.
I care a lot about those lives. Saying otherwise is insulting. Thankfully, you’re not MY brother.
Show me links to back up what you say. Anything you have said – but especially the gay teens & pregnancy one. I know some gay teens. Not how it works.
#341 RangerRick
Sweet Jesus, do you actually believe what you are typing or is this just an attempt to get the left wingers wound up?
I am a Christian and I hate how so many give my religion a bad name. I am a staunch supporter of gay rights and am in the “gay people are born that way and God doesn’t make mistakes” camp, which pisses off many of my fellow “Christians”. Most of the haters that I argue with shut up when I make the point that I would rather stand before God having been truly loving of all people and turn out to be wrong, rather than have hated gay people and they turn out to be perfectly fine. Jesus preached love of all people- no judgement and no exceptions. Anyone who says otherwise is preaching cultural prejudices and not true Christianity.
i had a hard time at school being gay but now i’ve been with my boyfriend for 20years. Kids need to know it does get better. Dan what you said was right and should be said.
i had a hard time at school being gay but now i’ve been with my boyfriend for 20years. Kids need to know it does get better. Dan what you said was right and should be said.
i had a hard time at school being gay but now i’ve been with my boyfriend for 20years. Kids need to know it does get better. Dan what you said was right and should be said.
I’m a straight Jew. Three things I strongly believe in is Tikun Olam – repairing the world, that evil flourishes when good people do nothing, and that no one person or belief has all the answers.
I agree with another poster, I really don’t see a clear anti-gay bias in the Bible. But even if it were there, so what? People should look to their own behavior, not everyone else’s. To me, doing the right thing does not mean policing someone else’s sexual preference, but it does mean working-speaking-acting against violence and injustice.
As for it getting better, why should it have to? Kids have it hard enough, we should be looking at ways to help all of them to grow up without trauma. Bullies should never be tolerated. Kids should never be made to be ashamed of themselves or their families. But then again, our society really isn’t kid friendly, is it?
I’m a straight Jew. Three things I strongly believe in is Tikun Olam – repairing the world, that evil flourishes when good people do nothing, and that no one person or belief has all the answers.
I agree with another poster, I really don’t see a clear anti-gay bias in the Bible. But even if it were there, so what? People should look to their own behavior, not everyone else’s. To me, doing the right thing does not mean policing someone else’s sexual preference, but it does mean working-speaking-acting against violence and injustice.
As for it getting better, why should it have to? Kids have it hard enough, we should be looking at ways to help all of them to grow up without trauma. Bullies should never be tolerated. Kids should never be made to be ashamed of themselves or their families. But then again, our society really isn’t kid friendly, is it?
I realize I’m a little late to the party, but bravo on the response to L.R.! Your passion for and stalwart defense of GLBT rights are an inspiration, Dan, and though I’m sure you already know it, a lot of us in the ‘straight community’ are pulling for you.
And I agree with your striking back against this ‘follower of Christ’ who somehow thinks her right to feel offended trumps these childrens’ right to life without harassment. It’s because our society still treats religious beliefs as unassailable bastions of righteousness that’s part of the problem. Profess to be a believer and your opinion somehow is worth more. It’s absolute horseshit.
So keep on fighting the good fight, and may the voices of reason one day (soon) drown out those of ignorance and hate.
Thank you Dan. The stuff the Religious Right pulls galls me beyond belief, particularly the hypocrisy of bashing LGBT people & then critiquing the LGBT community over factors they played a big part in making worse, it’s that detestable blame the victim mentality at work. But it is even worse that they assume it is their right to dictate what should be acceptable, and that they call anyone who doesn’t follow that evil. They go after everyone that isn’t Christian, or Jewish, straight and conservative. Case in point: I’m bi, Transgender, and Wiccan. The Wiccan element alone attracts serious fire from them, before Islam became the “Evil” religion du jour it was Wicca, and we still get harassed because we aren’t Christian. I got a lovely note a few weeks back saying I was going to hell for that reason & it outlined why all the other world religions -except Christianity & Judaism- are evil. They want to edge out every group that doesn’t fall in line.
That being said I appreciate your good sense in limiting your arguments, you take the care to specify the Religious Right. You don’t go off on Religion in general, as happens so often when the Religious Right is brought up. I think that shows good sense. I may be assuming & ascribing things incorrectly here, but I think you realize that there are plenty of religious people out there who use their faith to support LGBT teens and LGBT adults, and that there are plenty of LGBT people who have deep & supportive faith beliefs. And I’m not just talking about those Christian denominations that have decided to be supportive in the last decade, I mean everyone, the people like myself who are Wiccan or Buddhist or Muslim or Hindu or Baha’i or Pagan or any other faith outside of Christianity.
The Religious Right hurts us all, their intolerance of people that don’t fit their world view has an impact that is only negative. They need to realize that since Christians and straight people are majorities in this country they have the responsibility of making sure there is room for everyone else, they can’t use that advantage to stomp on everyone, because the only thing that comes of that is people being squished out of existence. They point at the problems of LGBT people as evidence for their hatred, I dare them to really look in a mirror and who really has the problems: oppressed minority trying to ensure their civil rights, or majority group trying to stomp out opposition so they can enjoy their (illusory) version of a perfect country.
Are people really putting gays over god? Its time to walk away and never look back.