Savage Love

1. 146: Hurting someone else is still hurting them, regardless of whether you are in control of yourself at the moment the hurt occurred. The person being hurt has no obligation to stand there and take it, either.

   The pressure is on her to fix it because she is the only person who CAN. The issue resides in her mind, nobody else’s. Nobody else can make her skin stop crawling FOR HER.

   The fact that she has been content to let it ride indicates to me she isn’t particularly interested in fixing it.

2. Wow, the PTSD article, and a lot of the “Oh Rape Culture, Rape Culture!” responses leave me speechless. She can’t take care of anyone until she takes care of herself. It’s also quite possible in addition to brutally leaving her husband out in the cold with no outlet for affection (not talking sex here, just warmth…), she’s “using” the other dude too for mindless sex. I agree with everybody who said she’s being a shit for giving her husband the cold shoulder without getting help. It’s one thing to say “I’m not ready yet” or “you do things which my assaulter did, and I can’t yet get over that”, it’s quite another to leave him clueless and out in the cold without hope. Effectively saying “Uh, I’m ready with everyone but you and you’ll just have to wait out here in the cold, until I actually commit to getting help, meanwhile I’ll be out boning this other dude, see you later.” is really her abusing the trust of the ones who love her. e.g. being a total shit. Either be worthy of their trust and hope and loyalty, or don’t. Don’t pretend to be.

3. Wow, the PTSD article, and a lot of the “Oh Rape Culture, Rape Culture!” responses leave me speechless. She can’t take care of anyone until she takes care of herself. It’s also quite possible in addition to brutally leaving her husband out in the cold with no outlet for affection (not talking sex here, just warmth…), she’s “using” the other dude too for mindless sex. I agree with everybody who said she’s being a shit for giving her husband the cold shoulder without getting help. It’s one thing to say “I’m not ready yet” or “you do things which my assaulter did, and I can’t yet get over that”, it’s quite another to leave him clueless and out in the cold without hope. Effectively saying “Uh, I’m ready with everyone but you and you’ll just have to wait out here in the cold, until I actually commit to getting help, meanwhile I’ll be out boning this other dude, see you later.” is really her abusing the trust of the ones who love her. e.g. being a total shit. Either be worthy of their trust and hope and loyalty, or don’t. Don’t pretend to be.

4. @129:
   This isn’t therapy, it’s an advice column. Ordinarily, I’d agree that it’s hyperbolic and unnecessarily cruel. Unfortunately, PTSD is not the only person involved. She’s literally pouring acid on her husband and her marriage, and a wake-up call is called for.

   On the topic of therapy, which PTSD certainly needs. A few years ago I saw an amazing psychotherapist. She really helped me, and I give her a lot of the credit for getting me to where I am now, or more accurately getting me to get me where I am now. She did so by reminding me, repeatedly, that I had to a) not let my emotions rule how I treated other people (which was very badly), then b) make decisions and c) live with the consequences.

   This wasn’t a matter of “healing” my wounds or “recovery” from whatever happened in said rough stretch. Those shouldn’t even be in PTSD’s vocabulary now, much less on her agenda, and to justify her conduct in these terms is fundamentally manipulative. I had to – and PTSD has to – start acting like a grown-up human being before even thinking about putting the finishing touches on my psyche.

   It’s much easier that way, too.

5. Neuromancer: Then why get married?

6. Ah! I see you got linked by Shakesville, that great blackhole of sanctimony. This will explain the handful of posters who suddenly show up telling us that it is PTSD’s _right_ to completely neglect her husband for her boyfriend, and doing nothing whatsoever to deal with these feelings she has. And how it is, of course, the husband’s duty to deal with the constant rejection and misery, and hope that someday she deigns to show him the affection she once did. Because being a sexual assault victim apparently relieves you of responsibility for all other relationships in your life from that point on, for ever.

   Ugh. What a sad situation. I think PTSD should just divorce her husband already. It sounds pretty clear to me that she doesn’t love him at this point; she just feels guilty for not loving him. It’s not her fault that she feels this way, but it needs to be resolved, and she doesn’t sound confident she can really be with him again.

7. Dan Savage – you are the total shit here. you are in no position to give out advice to people who are suffering PTSD from a sexual assault. you time and time again say the wrong thing and never apologize for it. the only thing that hopefully “gets better” is your understanding on sexual assault and its impact on a person.

   it makes my skin crawl that you are often thought of as a gay rights activist. as a gay man i would never align myself with the irresponsible, un-researched and off the cuff crap that you say. this piece is not only awful but speaks to your insincerity and self delusion.

   next time someone asks you something you are unqualified to handle, simply dont answer or refer them to someone who actually has a grasp on something more than the vehicle to fame by any means.

8. Dan Savage – you are the total shit here. you are in no position to give out advice to people who are suffering PTSD from a sexual assault. you time and time again say the wrong thing and never apologize for it. the only thing that hopefully “gets better” is your understanding on sexual assault and its impact on a person.

   it makes my skin crawl that you are often thought of as a gay rights activist. as a gay man i would never align myself with the irresponsible, un-researched and off the cuff crap that you say. this piece is not only awful but speaks to your insincerity and self delusion.

   next time someone asks you something you are unqualified to handle, simply dont answer or refer them to someone who actually has a grasp on something more than the vehicle to fame by any means.

9. I love how Shakesville shut down the comments at the FIRST comment that didn’t unequivocally agree with the author

10. Wow, beestings, I think if you sift through the archives of Savage Love you’ll find plenty of suitably charitable advice to victims of sexual assault. And in this column, you’ll note, he said “I’m sorry that you were sexually assaulted—that’s awful, PTSD, and I hope you went to the police and I hope you’re pressing charges.” But PTSD did write to ask Dan’s advice on the matter, not to just get sympathy. She feels guilty because she *knows* that the way she’s treating her husband isn’t right.

11. Wow, beestings, I think if you sift through the archives of Savage Love you’ll find plenty of suitably charitable advice to victims of sexual assault. And in this column, you’ll note, he said “I’m sorry that you were sexually assaulted—that’s awful, PTSD, and I hope you went to the police and I hope you’re pressing charges.” But PTSD did write to ask Dan’s advice on the matter, not to just get sympathy. She feels guilty because she *knows* that the way she’s treating her husband isn’t right.

12. Talk about being a “total shit”. Dan, you have no business counseling anyone who is a sexual assault survivor. You have no training and no innate understanding of this situation. You don’t seem to comprehend the incredibly complex set of triggers and responses that come from being assaulted – many of which do not appear to be related to an outsider’s point of view but can be resolved with therapy.

    Perhaps the reason sex with PSTD’s boyfriend is supportive and loving while sex with her husband is emotionally traumatizing is because her boyfriend is actually supportive and loving while her husband views her sexuality as something he owns and has rights to that she should be expected to provide for him at the expense of her now-traumatized emotional state, and her subconscious recognizes that with the light of the assault bringing out the worst in him, but the best in the boyfriend.

    PSTD: tell your husband to back the fuck off and get into therapy with a counselor who understands polyamorous relationships. A truly supportive and loving husband would want his wife to find happiness, love, and support when she needs it from whatever source she can find it, even if it’s not him.

13. geez, sorry about the billion postings. the server is a little overloaded, apparently.

14. Seriously, no, and hell no, Dan. Your comments to PTSD are the worst advice I have ever seen, let alone in your column.

    A sarcastic comment from a saner source: “Yes, it’s difficult to understand why, after being sexually assaulted, she doesn’t want to have sex with someone who considers her autonomy a negotiable item, contingent upon whether she’s sexually servicing him.”

    This woman has been assaulted, what does that mean? That means taking away someone’s choice about what they do with their body. Whether that’s done by force, or by emotional blackmail, that is a shitty thing to do. So now her husband is essentially setting her an ultimatum – “have sex with me (whether you enjoy it or not) or break up with the other person you care about and whose company you enjoy.”
    He may not be using physical force, but honestly it’s no wonder that PTSD is having trouble making love to her husband – the attitude is clearly all about his pleasure and none about hers.

    Yes, I know all about GGG, and sure, making the choice to try something a little out of the ordinary, to push one’s boundaries to please a partner makes perfect sense when you are GIVEN A CHOICE ABOUT IT. Beyond that, it may not be rape, quite, but it’s sure as hell not sexy. They’re in an open relationship, right? He can go get his needs met elsewhere too. Or masturbate, for F***’s sake – it’s not like she cut his hands off when she stopped ‘putting out’.

    My advice to a woman in this situation (as someone who’s come through a very similar one, in fact):
    Yes, seek therapy if you feel you need it.
    Yes, press charges if you feel you’re up to it, but only if.
    Keep on seeing the boyfriend who is supportive and gives you a great time, and if your husband continues to pressure you into putting out for him, it’s HIM that needs to be dropped. This is a sign that your happiness matters less to him than his own libido, and that isn’t love.

    The positive outlook: For me, it took several months to be able to relate sexually to anyone at all after my experience, and like you I found it harder to relate to the partner I already had – the more pressure I put on myself to do so, the harder it was. However my guy was patient, gentle, took things at my pace, and it came back eventually (we’re still very much together, and he gets on with my other partners fabulously).
    A couple of years on I find I’m still relating to people somewhat differently (some of it’s good, some of it is a little frustrating), but it *does* change, it does get better, and you will be able to get past it, with support, with time, and with RESPECT from your partners.

    I’m sorry you had to go through what you did, PTSD, and I’m sorry Dan was such a dick to you about it, too. I hope you get to read this.

15. @Joreth

    The HUSBAND need counselling and all the wife needs is to keep banging her guy-on-the-side?

    what the fuck kind of warped world do you live in?

16. @Doot I live in a world where my partners do not think they own my body or my time, and where my partners want the best for me regardless of what that is.

    Second of all, I did not say the husband needed counseling (although that’s not a bad idea), I told PSTD to get counseling and to tell her husband to back off.

    I’m sorry you live in a world where you can have your choices taken from you, then have your loved ones turn around and demand the same thing.

17. From what part of the letter do you get that the husband feels he owns his wife’s body? Read it a couple of times if you need to.

18. @167 – “I live in a world where my partners do not think they own my body or my time,”

    Apparently, they don’t own any actual compassion from you, either. Because if you can’t see how being constantly treated by one’s spouse as though you were toxic/revolting, while she cheerfully bathes in the romantic attention of others, could be incredibly painful in itself – and how showing at least the most basic concern for that might be the moral thing to do – then I’m glad I don’t live in _your_ world.

19. It’s also very telling that everyone on the blame-the-victim side all assumes the boyfriend is disposable & second class. If the boyfriend were the one pissed at PSTD for not wanting sex but still sleeping with her husband, everyone would be telling him he’s an asshole & that she should dump him. Having that piece of paper with one person does not tell us anything about the nature of the relationships involved, nor does it give one person the right to be an insensitive asshole. First of all, we can’t legally marry more than one person in the US, so having the title “boyfriend” doesn’t necessarily mean he’s a “secondary” or lower-priority partner. Second, even if he was a “lower-priority” partner, he is clearly providing something important to a victim of sexual assault that her spouse isn’t, which suggests that, if we have to compare relationships to each other & find a “winner”, that the boyfriend relationship is a better relationship for her than the husband relationship. Any monogamous husband who demands that his sexually-assaulted wife start servicing him and give up her poetry class as the only thing that gives her any feelings of self-worth because he’s jealous of the time she spends with her poetry buddies instead of him would be just as much in the wrong has PSTD’s husband is.

    People are not disposable, nor replaceable, regardless of whether or not one has a legal contract dealing with property rights. If you feel an attraction for one person but do not feel it for another, breaking up with one does not make you suddenly attracted to the one you weren’t previously attracted to. Breaking up with the boyfriend will not make PSTD want her husband any more, and may more likely cause even more damage between them because he will have been responsible for breaking her heart. And breaking your lover’s heart causes damage to your own relationship with your lover.

20. It’s also very telling that everyone on the blame-the-victim side all assumes the boyfriend is disposable & second class. If the boyfriend were the one pissed at PSTD for not wanting sex but still sleeping with her husband, everyone would be telling him he’s an asshole & that she should dump him. Having that piece of paper with one person does not tell us anything about the nature of the relationships involved, nor does it give one person the right to be an insensitive asshole. First of all, we can’t legally marry more than one person in the US, so having the title “boyfriend” doesn’t necessarily mean he’s a “secondary” or lower-priority partner. Second, even if he was a “lower-priority” partner, he is clearly providing something important to a victim of sexual assault that her spouse isn’t, which suggests that, if we have to compare relationships to each other & find a “winner”, that the boyfriend relationship is a better relationship for her than the husband relationship. Any monogamous husband who demands that his sexually-assaulted wife start servicing him and give up her poetry class as the only thing that gives her any feelings of self-worth because he’s jealous of the time she spends with her poetry buddies instead of him would be just as much in the wrong has PSTD’s husband is.

    People are not disposable, nor replaceable, regardless of whether or not one has a legal contract dealing with property rights. If you feel an attraction for one person but do not feel it for another, breaking up with one does not make you suddenly attracted to the one you weren’t previously attracted to. Breaking up with the boyfriend will not make PSTD want her husband any more, and may more likely cause even more damage between them because he will have been responsible for breaking her heart. And breaking your lover’s heart causes damage to your own relationship with your lover.

21. @171 – “It’s also very telling that everyone on the blame-the-victim side”

    Oh, please. Seriously, this is just dishonest. Not a single person here – no one! – has accused her of being responsible for her assault. Rather, she has been accused of not dealing with its effects on those around her constructively. You might think that’s cruel, and you might argue that they’re taking it too far, but having something terrible happen to you still doesn’t just free you of all responsibility for how your actions affect others.

22. @joreth It’s also very telling that you refer to the people who think this woman should cut her poor husband loose as the “blame the victim” side. In your world, one is either a victim, in which case anything one does is acceptable; or an abuser, in which case one cannot possibly suffer and does not have rights. This kind of black-and-white view is toxic to relationships and damaging to everyone involved in a sexual assault– the victim and the victim’s loved ones.

23. “A truly supportive and loving husband would want his wife to find happiness, love, and support when she needs it from whatever source she can find it, even if it’s not him.”

    The logical conclusion to that line of reasoning: “So divorce me already, go be with the guy that you obviously want to be with, and stop blowing smoke up my ass about how much you care for me. I make your skin crawl, idiot. Stop trying to pretend.”

24. No, my partners don’t “own” any compassion or anything else of me. I willingly share my compassion, my attention, my body, and my love with my partners, who do the same, but none of us “own” any of those things of the others.

    I never once said it didn’t suck to have a partner’s emotional state change from positive to negative. I can certainly understand *why* the husband would not like the state of things. But going from “I feel bad because of how you’re handling your traumatic experience” to “therefore I demand you give up your only source of joy and provide a service to me that is currently trigging your trauma” is the height of asshatery.

    The most basic concern that a sexual assault victim could show is a desire to overcome her experience, and seeking therapy is one method. She is not only under no obligation to submit to his demands to give up her single source of happiness & provide services that resemble/trigger her previous assault, but doing so would most likely cause further deterioration in her marriage, not to mention her own emotional state.

    He’s so busy feeling bad that he’s not getting serviced that he’s completely overlooking the fact that HIS WIFE WAS SEXUALLY ASSAULTED and may have issues to deal with before she can feel comfortable with other people – either in general, or specifically with those people who are triggering the exact same loss of control, choice, and freedom as her attacker.

    I feel sympathy for people who lose the interest of a loved one. I lose that sympathy when their desire to be loved and/or fucked overrides their own concern for that loved one and when they choose to demand self-serving actions instead of putting their own selfish desires on hold in order to support someone they supposedly love while she works through the problem.

    My world is filled with people who are supportive and compassionate and considerate, and who understand that wanting to get laid takes a backseat to getting a trauma victim’s emotional state back in order even though it means feeling some uncomfortable feelings in the meantime. For those who claim to be happy they don’t live in my world, I hope you remember that the next time you’re raped, assaulted, burgled, attacked, beat up, or otherwise traumatized and your loved ones tell you “I’m sorry you were attacked, but your issues make *me* feel bad, and that’s more important to me than your own feelings.”

25. @156: Maybe because they want to spend their lives together. Why shouldn’t they get married? Why would it matter whether they’re monogamous or not?

26. Why can’t PTSD and her husband *both* go to therapists (separately) and she gets to keep the boyfriend?

    This reminds me of a friend who mine who has migraines. After trying all the “official” migraine meds, she’s found that beer is the simplest, cheapest treatment with the least side effects. Yay for the unofficial treatment!

    Therapy is the official treatment, sex with your loving supportive bf is the unofficial treatment — I say do both, and have your husband do the same (i.e. his own therapy and his own sex with other partners). Together, you’ll get through this.

27. @132: I hope you don’t think I’m advocating complete selfishness or lack of consideration. There is a middle ground between screwing “whoever you want whenever you want, and your partner just has to deal with it,” and giving your partner complete veto power over your relationships (and even friendships, in the extreme).

    Of course in a good relationship the partners should be able to talk about other partners who make them uncomfortable. “I feel uncomfortable with you sleeping with X; let’s talk about it and see if we can come up with a compromise” is reasonable and I’d be very willing to respond to that. However, “I’m using my veto power on X; no more discussion, terminate your relationship with X now” is not something that gives me any security. I just don’t like being controlled like that.

    To put it another way, being able to freely make my own decisions about what to do in such a situation is exactly what gives me the space to consider my partner’s feelings. Because I want to and I care about my partner, not because I’m being forced to.

    Essentially, having someone be able to make ultimatums that I am expected to respond to, which is what veto power is, feels like a very abusive and controlling dynamic to me. I am interested and curious how this works for you and when this veto power gets used.

28. @Morosoph So I assume you have had absolute control over your own emotional state & libido the last time you were sexually assaulted?

    I never said she didn’t have responsibility to get herself fixed up, that’s why I suggested therapy. But the solution to “fixed up” is not to give up her boyfriend to assauge her husband’s damaged ego.

    @avast2006 You might think that’s the logical conclusion, but I certainly don’t. Triggers for an assault are extremely complex, and not wanting sex does not equal not caring for someone. Maybe you can’t love someone unless you’re having sex with them, but not everyone is that shallow.

    Plenty of people have gone on to have their relationships recover after a sexual assault, but it takes time and compassion and understanding and support from those around them. The husband is clearly not giving her that, which is probably *why* she is being triggered in this way.

    This is why laypeople have no business giving advice for mental health issues – they don’t understand the complexity involved, and they too often mistake the order of causation, and they assume correlation = causation.

29. @Polly, Beestings and Joreth

    You came over from Shakesville, didn’t you?

    NOTHING in the PTSD’s letter or Dan’s response suggests that the husband does or should “own” her sexuality or her time. God what horseshit.

    You all have serious reading comprehension issues – break out of your little bullshit echo chamber and look around at some other real human beings.

    Dan’s advice is exactly right. To paraphrase:

    1. Sexual assault is awful.
    2. Being the victim of a sexual assault does not entitle you to treat anyone who is not your attacker badly.

30. As a, uh, “victim-hater,” I have to say that the folks referred by Shakesville are missing the point. The husband isn’t upset because he can’t fuck his wife, he’s upset because she finds him repulsive and he thinks that she’s given up on their marriage. Since she says things like “I admit I have a hard time believing that my husband and I will ever be able to go back to the way things were before,” I’d say that’s a valid concern. They’re married, which doesn’t mean that he owns her, but it does mean she made a commitment to him and now she’s letting that slip away.

31. “He’s so busy feeling bad that he’s not getting serviced”

    Oh, come ON.

    He’s busy feeling bad that his touch makes his wife’s SKIN CRAWL. (her words.)

    “Getting serviced?” Honestly? Could you possibly mischaracterize the situation in a more biased way?

    He’s also feeling bad because his wife seems to think the status quo is nothing particularly alarming, and it will just have to work itself out in time, with no outside help. In other words, not only does he make her skin crawl, that fact doesn’t seem to really bother her all that much.

    If your skin crawls at the touch of your spouse, that should be setting off all manner of alarm bells in your head, and you should be taking all possible steps to address the situation. (I.e., fucking get help NOW.) She doesn’t seem to mind all that much, as long as she gets to keep fucking her boyfriend. She also doesn’t care about her husband’s feelings — or rather, she cares, just not enough to bother changing anything.

    Clearly, she’s married to the wrong guy.

32. lets see.

    within 5 months PTSD writer went thru the following. picture yourself there instead.

    you get sexually assaulted by someone you once trusted.

    as a result of that you now find your husband impossible to sleep with.

    its unclear as to whether you report this crime, its likely you do not. since crippling fear of further consequences makes you uninterested in pursuing legal action.

    you decide to anonymously seek counsel with an unqualified voice that you trust on the matter.

    he calls you a “shit.” reprimands your behavior. you are further silenced by your trauma.

    commenters support this behavior. anyone who opposes his behavior and sympathizes with the Survivor of a terrible and far to common act of superb violence is mocked.

    so… how do you feel? you get some good advice? everything fixed now?

33. I’m sorry but @Joreth is clearly very self involved. It’s all about me, Me, ME!! Nobody owns me, blah, blah, blah.
    Nothing is black and white! Yes, you should care about the people around you that you are hurting. Really, just shut the fuck up, you’re annoying. I know I shouldn’t be so mean, but it’s not like you’re being polite. NOBODY, except troll unregistered assholes have been blaming the victim. Most people are saying she should get help and show some compassion to her poor husband, be it taking a break from her boyfriend or just letting him go if she can no longer be with him. My mother was sexually abused as a child and tended to gravitate to people who have been through similar experiences, so I grew up around people who had a hard time coping with others. Yes, they usually fucked up relationships like PTSD is doing, but the good ones understood that these are the people that love them, and they should be treated with respect. PTSD is not treating her HUSBAND, whom she made a life time COMMITMENT (you understand the word, right?) too, with respect as someone who has been very understanding about her needs. She shows her respect by getting emotional support from HIM, not the boyfriend. She shows respect by having a break from the boyfriend and attempting to deal with her issues. She herself realizes that she is treating her husband like shit, and she asked Dan for help. If she knows Dan, she should have expected a few harsh words. He has been very consistent about this issue, be it male or female. What would you say if it was the husband that had been assualted and ignored his wife for his girlfiend? I bet it wouldn’t be the same. Get a grip, seriously.

34. @183

    beestings, I thought this day would never come. You have inspired me to break my fundamental rule regarding internet communications: the personal attack.

    God fucking DAMN are you an idiot!!

    Also, I’m with Roadflare; if the traumatized person were male, you guys would be singing a different tune. Oh, and just to clarify my “qualifications” on these points, I AM a rape survivor! Yes, and ten years later, after plenty of therapy, I am happily married and hardly ever think about it! It was a major event in my life, but I certainly don’t define myself as a victim, and I never used it as an excuse to mistreat the people in my life.

35. 179: “Maybe you can’t love someone unless you’re having sex with them, but not everyone is that shallow.”

    There are plenty of people in my life whom I love but I don’t have sex with. On the other hand, I don’t call any of them “spouse.”

    One guy makes her feel “loved and whole and wonderful.” The other guy makes her skin crawl. Given those two descriptions, which one would you expect was the spouse?

    The husband is not wrong for thinking that she loves the boyfriend more than him. It takes enormous, willing suspension of disbelief and active ignoring of cognitive dissonance to believe the Letter Writer in the face of her behavior.

36. @Polly, Beestings and Joreth

    Go back to

    Shakespearssister

    Grown ups hang out here.

    Oh and Sylvia Plath was a shitty writer.

37. Dan, why are you failing so hard right now? It’s been 5 months, and if her husband’s attitude is anything like your own, it’s no f*ing wonder she doesn’t want to f* him. Pressing charges in rape cases has a long history of not going well, if at all, with the added benefit of revictimizing the victim. Like your column is currently doing. WAY TO GO!

38. “The husband isn’t upset because he can’t fuck his wife”

    @Chicago_girl actually that is exactly what we’re being told.

    We are presented with a scenario in which the writer clearly cares about her husbands feelings, and has demonstrated this repeatedly – even going so far as to ‘go along’ with sexual acts she clearly didn’t enjoy:

    “Those times when I go along with it anyway leave me feeling enraged and disgusted.”

    Clearly the husband’s sexual desires are mattering to him more than his wife’s happiness right here. Yet he continues to pressure her for sex as ‘proof’ that she loves him.
    Whatever the initial cause of the problem, and whether there is a boyfriend or not, that is on the road to an abusive relationship, and one that needs addressing if they’re going to continue being husband and wife.

    I’ve been there, I’ve brought partners through it, I’ve got the T-shirt. As the partner who is feeling insecure (and certainly the husband is acting that part) it can be difficult to step back and take the pressure off, but it’s amazing how quickly things come back together when you genuinely do that.

    Funny, I thought marriage was a commitment to live love and to cherish. There have been plenty of non-sexual marriages through the ages, and plenty where attraction waned but couples still treated each other with respect and dignity, whether they had (consensual) affairs on the side or not. Have we suddenly travelled back in time to the age when a marriage can be annulled if it isn’t consummated?

39. @183 – Thank you for amply demonstrating your selective reading and intense bias. Really? “crippling fear of further consequences makes you uninterested in pursuing legal action”). Where exactly was that part in the letter? Oh, that’s right, nowhere — it’s just your little “fill in”.

    Your “victim-blaming” and “victim-hating” accusations ring incredibly hollow here folks. Nobody on this thread, and certainly not Dan, blames PTSD for being assaulted. We all think it’s horrible and tragic. She needs help. The issue, though, is that AS BETWEEN HER AND HER HUSBAND, SHE’S NOT HIS VICTIM.

40. “Clearly the husband’s sexual desires are mattering to him more than his wife’s happiness right here. Yet he continues to pressure her for sex as ‘proof’ that she loves him.“

    No, what the letter says is that he is pressuring her to stop having sex with the boyfriend — not that he is pressuring her to keep having sex with him — until the problem is resolved.

    Nowhere does it say that he is pressuring her for sex. He approached her, she flipped out, she has occasionally tried to “go along with it”, and ended up very unhappy. She never says that was because he was forcing the issue. Maybe it was because she knew that finding her husband repulsive is seriously broken? And maybe she was trying to find out what would happen?

41. @145

    femwanderluster, you’ve very very quick to defend her and not him, just because she’s the victim. Dan is absolutely right – when you’re in a marriage, you’ve made a commitment, and part of that commitment is one of love and honesty.

    But hey, she was assaulted. He should be totally and completely forgiving of her behavior, right?

42. Dan was spot on with his answer. She needs to put the secondary on the back burner until she has recieved professional help that she needs, and has got her marriage back on track.Or , she needs to get out of the marriage.
    To those who suggest that she should not tell law enforcement. This guy is a criminal, and once criminal learn the they can get away with something, they will repeat it.over and over. By not telling the police, their will be more victims.

43. @178

    BlackRose wrote:
    “Of course in a good relationship the partners should be able to talk about other partners who make them uncomfortable… Essentially, having someone be able to make ultimatums that I am expected to respond to, which is what veto power is, feels like a very abusive and controlling dynamic to me. I am interested and curious how this works for you and when this veto power gets used. “

    Oh, it’s not simply “you do what I tell you right now!”… a straight ultimatum. We can and do talk about it and see how the discomfort might be resolved. However, at the end of the conversation, if she needs the security of monogamy, she gets it. If I need it, I get it. End of story. The presumption is that monogamy can be re-established at any time, by either partner, if they are in a vulnerable state and need that security then.

    I consider it my obligation to put my partner’s feelings and sense of security ahead of my sexual desires (and ahead of the feelings of any secondaries I may be involved with). Though jealousy is a problem to be dealt with, people are human, and have human feelings, and sometimes they must be allowed to have them even if they aren’t what we’d like them to be. Saying “jealousy is a problem” is too often translated into “… and it’s your problem to deal with”, and turned into a noble-sounding excuse for being a callous piece of shit. If my mate is miserable over my screwing someone else I will not continue doing it, whether her feelings make sense to me or not.

    And I’m sorry, but lots of happy non-monogamous relationships do work this way, over long periods of time. You have your model of non-monogamy. I’m glad you’re happy with it. I’ll stick to my version.

44. I love how people act how the husband has the right to be so hurt when the wife cringes at his touch and not her boyfriend’s, when a) that is not even remotely her choice, b) triggers are not rational, c) it doesn’t mean she doesn’t love him, d) she makes an earnest attempts to have sex anyway.

    I mean, honestly. Yes, anyone would feel hurt and upset in that situation. But any decent person would pull their head out of their ass and realize that it’s not all about them, and their feelings shouldn’t take centerstage. Because, like 192 sarcastically mentioned, she was sexually assaulted by someone she once cared cared about. Y’know, something that’s kinda a big deal. You’d think that any decent guy would consider THAT before his bruised ego.

    Because I’ve been in a similar situation, where I love someone who’s hurting me because of trauma. Yes, it sucks really hard. Yes, it hurts. But if you want to support that person, you forgive their behavior and help them, not stamp your feet about how they’re hurting YOU. You can have an honest talk about hurt feelings and apologies and making up later, after they’ve gotten serious help and in a better headspace.

    Or hell, maybe you can’t deal with the pain, you step away out of the relationship. It may be cruel and shitty thing to do, but not everyone can deal with the hurt either. What you DON’T do is stay around but still demand your feelings be considered to the detriment of your loved one. The wife may need to get herself to therapy ASAP, but the husband ALSO needs to decide what’s more important instead of making the situation worse.

    And one more thing; you can still blame a victim without blaming her for the assault itself. You can still blame a victim for not reacting the way they ‘should’ or without perfect grace. The fallout of a rape goes much farther than the rape itself, meaning that there’s still plently of chances for further victim blaming.

    @ 193: Even if we don’t consider how rape victims are treated by the courts, you assume that there is any evidence to prosecute besides her word against his. Not all rapes are brutal and violent that leave obvious evidence, and even if it was, by now that physical evidence is gone. Rape can be as simple as one man intimidating a women into sex, something that can never be proven in court.

45. Very sorry for the overly long post that follows.

    Things it might help to know:

    Was the open marriage working beautifully for both of them or only for her? And is it open in both directions? (She does not specify. And does it change any of the posted views if he is or isn’t permitted outside partners? I noticed her not saying anything about that either way.)

    His trying to initialize sexual contact: she doesn’t say he’s pressuring her, but I suppose she might be ignoring that because she feels guilty about not being able to respond. Then again, perhaps she keeps trying just going along with it hoping that this time it will take and it doesn’t. If he’s asking if she thinks she’s ready and she’s taking the line unsuccessfully, “I’ll try, let’s see,” there could be no villain in the case either way, however much more fun it might be to blame one partner or the other.

    It does seem that this could be turned into an unwinnable situation for a victim’s partner if (s)he were always the initiator. Initiate too soon and (s)he’s selfish and only concerned with her/his own climax. Don’t initiate and (s)he selfishly thinks the victim is damaged property. Wait for the victim to initiate and (s)he’s pressuring the victim by forcing her/him into an unfamiliar or uncomfortable role. I don’t think PTSD is doing that here, but just bring it up to mention that there may well seem to be no right answer, and that even trying to discuss the situation may seem like pressure.

    Enraged and disgusted with whom/what? – him? herself? the perpetrator? sex in general?

    “Considering therapy”: is she blase about his need to restore happy sexual relations to the marriage, unsure she’s at a point of being ready for therapy, doubtful that there is a helpful or useful therapist available in the area given the open twist, having to weigh the potential benefit against cost or some other consideration? There seems to be some evidence to support the blase interpretation in her complete non-mention whether he has any outside partner(s) or permission to seek any, but that could be editing on one end or the other.

    As for the boyfriend, presumably the title suggests sufficient status that he merits consideration whether or not such consideration extends to a say in what happens. But how is the boyfriend responding to the situation as a whole? Is he just selflessly happy to provide whatever magic he has for her for however long she might need it? Is he concerned over the negative change in her relationship with her husband? Does this please him? Is he gloating? Is he trying to bring about any change in the relationship that he might see as more desirable? There are so many possibilities, and there’s also the question of why PTSD doesn’t mention his reaction.

    “Incredibly jealous”: Is it really incredibly, or was that just perhaps not the best choice of word? A fairly large dose of jealousy seems quite credible if one’s only partner suddenly finds one repulsive but feels loved and whole and wonderful in the company of somebody else. Did the husband have any issues with the boyfriend prior to the assault, especially any of the sort that according to terms of the relationship either husband or wife should have been handling differently?

    Depressed and angry – feelings. Accusations – a definite concern, but perhaps understandable.

    Then we have what he *wants* – for her to stop sleeping with the boyfriend until the marriage is back to normal. Has this gone from a want to a request? or even to a demand, the way some posters assume it has?

    The husband-blamers’ best point may be that, “As the partner who is feeling insecure (and certainly the husband is acting that part) it can be difficult to step back and take the pressure off, but it’s amazing how quickly things come back together when you genuinely do that.” Would it really help him genuinely to take the pressure off if she weren’t clearly coming home in a state of feeling loved and whole and wonderful because of someone he likely perceives to be a threat to the marriage? Is it possible that her feeling loved and whole and wonderful with the boyfriend has gone from being helpful to numbing her? Whose need is greater?

    I wish posters were less absolute on both sides. To use the free pass idea, it strikes me that PTSD does get a free pass, but a temporary one. It would be heartless to expect her to recover right away. Then again, there surely must come a time when her recovery not yet being complete no longer justifies her not giving his situation due consideration. It seems more a scale than a clear case of his being abusive or her being a pill.

    Because I see two people suffering and don’t want there to be any villain in the case, I’ll go with the interpretation that the husband was waiting reasonably patiently and so was the wife. Then, perhaps to her own surprise, on a visit to her boyfriend she had astonishingly affirmative sex. She told her husband, and since then he has periodically initiated, and she’s occasionally made herself try, only they’ve had no luck.

    In an ideal world, it would be lovely if the husband could cheerfully and supportively go without for an indefinite period, gladness for her being able to feel loved and whole and wonderful obliterating any sadness from not being the source. Without the assault in my own case, I’ve been in the position of being celibate and supportive while my boyfriend was enjoying the full benefits of another partner. But I only had to go through it for a finite period of time, and we weren’t trying during that period. It’s not for everyone; I just think it happened to suit my rather odd disposition.

    I can certainly see how one spouse or the other here *could* be clearly to blame, but it’s too late for any more.

46. Ok everyone, before we continue this asshattery, can we please remember a few things?
    A) Triggers aren’t voluntary. Triggers aren’t voluntary. The reaction of panic and revulsion isn’t something one chooses. The stuff after that yes, but the feeling can’t be controlled at that moment. Sometimes therapy helps, but I have friends who after years of therapy still have concluded that, while they’re better, all they can do is to avoid certain situations. I am not saying that sex with her husband is eternally doomed, but keep in mind that her reaction isn’t something she chooses or controls.
    B) “victim blaming” isn’t JUST saying “it’s your fault that x happened.” It’s also to say “and now that it did, you should be back to normal with no adverse reaction, pls don’t have emotions.”

    Should PTSD see a therapist? Of course, asap. Should she scale back on the bf? Maybe, yeah, if it really does make the husband feel better. Should the husband try to see beyond his wounded ego and react like the person who wasn’t assaulted that he is? Yes; insist that they stop trying to have sex (WHY is he trying to sex up an assault survivor who is obviously not enjoying it anyway?) and ask how he can support her instead. Should PSTD try to find other ways to show her husband that she loves him (which I believe she does, or she wouldn’t try to have sex with him despite not wanting to, or be upset that he is wounded and angry) Yes. Should Dan be a little bit smarter about who he’s calling abusive and shitty, especially less than six months after she’s been through a trauma-inducing sexual assault? Hell yes. Way to go from awesome to arse in less than a day, Savage.

47. Funny you should mention “voluntary.” I was just thinking along those same lines. The kernel of this situation consists of two kinds of things: the stuff that isn’t in their control, and the stuff that is. Most of the conflict arises out of the stuff that is in their control, but they are handling badly.

    First, the stuff that is out of their control.

    She can’t control her panic reaction. She can’t be blamed for that. End of story. Likewise she shouldn’t be made to feel guilty for boyfriend making her happy. That isn’t a bad thing at all, in and of itself, and even it it were somehow bad, it’s not like she could will herself to come home from his house all depressed.

    By the same token, her husband isn’t in control of feeling depressed when she finds him revolting, or jealous when the boyfriend makes her feel loved and whole and wonderful, particularly in the face of her finding him revolting. Those are emotions. They don’t respond very well to little rational talks about how and why the situation is pulling this reaction out of her. He can choose how to respond to the emotions, how to express them or keep them to himself…but you can’t ask him to just stop feeling them. And frankly, that particular pair of stimuli — boyfriend makes me feel whole, but you, hubby, make my skin crawl — is going to be incredibly hard to take under any circumstance.

    Then, there are the things that are in her control (and yes, these are the things she fucked up):

    First, she can go get therapy. Actively going for therapy would accomplish two things: a) it would (hopefully) get her on the road to recovery a lot faster than just letting things ride and hoping this storm blows itself out (hint; fat chance). And b) it would be be one way of demonstrating to her horribly rejected husband that she is genuinely interested in turning things around as quickly as possible. Her lackadaisical interest in therapy probably appears to the husband like she isn’t all that interested in getting better any time soon.

    Second, she is in control over whether to keep seeing the boyfriend in the face of her husband’s obvious misery over that. She knows that it makes him horribly unhappy, and she chooses to keep doing it. Cutting back on time with the boyfriend would be a gesture to her husband that she takes his feelings seriously. But she hasn’t done that. That right there is the one thing that would label her an uncaring shit. If your partner is miserable as a result of your choices and you choose to keep doing the exact same thing, you don’t give a shit about your partner’s feelings. Okay, maybe you give a little tiny squirt of shit. But not enough of a shit to be useful or meaningful.

    So, she has completely fucked up on the items that are in her control. Between those two — not being serious about getting therapy, and continuing to fuck the boyfriend — the overall effect is of someone who isn’t interested in “getting better” because she is already getting what she needs out of the situation. Hubby is expected to just shut up and deal, because hey, being told by your wife that you make her skin crawl, and that she has plenty of need for dick, just not yours, isn’t emotionally violating in the least.

    That’s not to say that the husband didn’t also fuck up the things that are in his control. What are the things in his control?

    First, he can bite his tongue when the urge to sling accusations arises. Telling her she doesn’t really love him, or she loves the boyfriend more, isn’t going to accomplish anything. It may eventually persuade her that he’s right. (Notice I’m not saying he shouldn’t feel jealous. He just needs to resist the urge to fight with her.)

    Second, he can tell her that sex with him is completely off the table until she feels she is ready to try. That takes the pressure completely off of her, and forestalls repeat performances of the panic attacks, which only make both of them unhappy.

    Third, if he doesn’t already have a girlfriend, he really should go get one. First, it means he will have someone in his life who thinks fucking him is a great idea, to counteract the appalling message coming from his wife. (Yes, I know, she can’t help it. It still hurts.) Second, it means he is getting laid regularly, so the pressure on the wife will genuinely be off. (If he says sex is off the table, but he remains celibate while he waits for her to recover, the pressure will still be there, no matter how unspoken or how much he disclaims it, and that will be counterproductive.)

48. I was once (partially) in PTSD’s position. Not all of the situations were the same. My trauma had nothing to do with sex. But I was traumatized, and I was dealing with it badly. I was not getting help, and I was letting my reactions hurt someone I loved. Namely, my husband.

    Finally, someone told me that I was being selfish and cruel to my husband. They told me that I was being a lousy human being. That I was harming him.

    Hearing that gave me the strength to finally go to therapy. Guilt got through where nothing else would.

    I think that’s what Dan was trying to do with PTSD. I think it might actually penetrate her pain long enough to make her go to therapy. I hope it works for her.

49. Dan, I hope you know that writing an advice column is not a Get Out of Being a Human Being Free card.

    Just because you have said advice column doesn’t mean you operate in an alternate moral universe where you’re not obligated to take other people’s feelings into consideration—particularly the feelings of people who write to you with honest concerns. Your behavior toward PTSD is both cruel and selfish.

    If you truly wanted to help the writer navigate her situation, you would’ve put the knee-jerk attitude on hold and gotten your ass to consult a professional on trauma without having to be told before spewing your response.

    To sum up, Dan: You’re being a total shit. Get your ass onto a counselor’s couch to find out why you feel the need to emotionally assault survivors of sexual trauma.

50. Hey Dan,
    I love your column, and have loved it for a long time, but the way you responded to PTSD really upset me. There are ways to give a trauma victim advice without flippantly disregarding his or her experience. She is clearly not just “being a total shit” by not wanting to stop the only sexual contact that she has enjoyed since her assault. While her husband deserves to have his feelings respected, there are ways to suggest the same change without making fun of a rape victim.

Comments are closed.