I have a bit of a situation. I’m a 23-year-old het male, and I am married. My wife and I have a girlfriend now, making our arrangement a polyamorous triad. We all love each other, and we are getting to the point that we are thinking about how we are going to tell our parents about our relationship.

My parents have already been told. My mother was bemused and amazed, my father gave me a high five. But my parents are divorced/remarried atheists, and by the time I was 12, my dad was teaching me how to eat pussy.

My wife’s family is super Southern Baptist, while our girlfriend’s mother is a big ol’ bag of crazy: She was a physically abusive nut job who beat her children with a Bible attached to a rope.

Should we even bother disclosing to either of their sets of Bible-beating parents? To give you an even better idea about who my mother-in-law is: I’m a recovering addict (two years sober), and after I told her that in confidence, she used it against me the first chance she got (called me a thieving junkie). She’s a hypocritical, judgmental bitch, but my wife feels like she needs her approval.

If we shouldn’t disclose, then how do we deal with things like family holidays? Is not disclosing a sign that either my wife or girlfriend is ashamed of the life we lead?

Not Telling The Whole Truth

You don’t mention how long you’ve been in this poly triad, NTTWT, but seeing as you’re only 23 and were already married before you met the girlfriend, you can’t have been in this poly triad for very long. And while it’s nice that you have such an open and honest relationship with your parents—perhaps a little too open (I’d like to take this opportunity to thank my father for not teaching me how to eat pussy when I was 12)—your wife and your girlfriend aren’t similarly blessed.

For that reason, I’m gonna advise against disclosing the true nature of your relationship(s) for the time being, NTTWT. Not because you have anything to be ashamed of—you most certainly do not—but because relationships with parents are best run on a need-to-know basis.

And it doesn’t sound like your wife’s parents need to know—not yet. This triad is new, and like most romantic relationships, it may not stand the test of time. For the moment, introduce your girlfriend as a friend; if your MIL is curious about why you’re all living together, say something vague about the economy. If it turns out that your triad is one for the ages, NTTWT, then you can come out to your MIL and weather the judgmental shitstorm.

As for the girlfriend’s mother, NTTWT, it doesn’t sound like that woman has a right to know anything about her daughter’s life.

All that said, NTTWT, I do think loving, committed nonmonogamous couples should be open with their families, if only to prove to people that loving, committed nonmonogamous couples exist. I’m not encouraging you to be closeted, just strategic. Your wife’s family is more likely to be accepting if they perceive your marriage as not just loving, but lasting. Give it a few years, NTTWT, and then, whether the current girlfriend is still in the picture or not, your wife can let her mother know—as matter-of-factly as possible—that you’re poly.

What do you know about orgasm denial for men? My husband is asking me to try all kinds of crazy things like locking him in a chastity device and denying him orgasms until he begs. Is that safe? Do many couples do it? I admit I find it kind of sexy, but how in the world do I figure out how to do it and make it fun for him?

Wants Info For Erotics

Except in the most extreme cases, WIFE, male chastity play isn’t really about orgasm denial. It’s more of an elaborate, extended kind of foreplay, a way of introducing elements of erotic power and control that usually result in the denied/chaste man having more orgasms, not fewer.

There’s no way of knowing how many wives out there are locking up their husbands’ dicks, WIFE, but there are enough couples doing it to keep male chastity device manufacturers in business (www.cb-6000.com) and enough couples interested in male chastity play for publishers to bring out books that explain how to do it and how to make it pleasurable (Male Chastity: A Guide for Keyholders by Lucy Fairbourne, Be Careful What You Wish For…: The Ultimate Guide to Male Chastity by Sarah Jameson).

As for safety: Make sure you get a chastity device that fits properly, WIFE, as you don’t want his dick to go numb, develop gangrene, and fall off—that would be nullification, not chastity. And don’t deny your husband orgasms for weeks or months on end, as that could elevate his risk for developing prostate cancer.

I’m a guy in my late 30s and have been married for 12 mostly happy years, with three kids. I’ve never cheated, despite a boring sex life that I’ve tried to spice up. My efforts were not received well. We’ve talked at length about the frequency and style of our sex life, but she’s not interested in having sex very often, and when she is, it only happens one of two ways. I’ve thought about having sex with other women but have never acted on any of the opportunities that came my way.

Anyway, I meet a girl, we’re attracted to each other, and we decide to go for it. No, my wife does not know. Yes, I’m an asshole. And the problem is, suddenly I can’t get it up—for either of them! Neither my hand nor porn work, either. WTF? I have NEVER had this problem. It’s been three attempts—patient girl, huh?—and so far nothing. I can’t tell if this is guilt, performance anxiety, or what. Has my wife, porn, and my hand ruined me for having sex with other women? Do you have any suggestions? I doubt it’s medical, since the onset occurred precisely when this girl and I decided to have sex, and that would be far too much of a coincidence.

No Catchy Sign-Off

I’m thinking either it’s guilt plus performance anxiety—guilt-induced performance anxiety—or it’s a huge and highly unlikely coincidence. A medical checkup can rule out the latter, NCSO, but only a thorough examination of your feelings, your motives, and your circumstances can help the former.

You’ve taken a huge and potentially very consequential step: You’re gonna cheat on the wife (three attempts? you’re already cheating on the wife), NCSO, and if the wife finds out—and that’s a pretty small if—that could mean divorce. (It shouldn’t mean divorce, in my opinion, but it usually does.) Seeing as the potential consequences for you, your wife, and your kids are so dire that you’ve been struck bonerless, I would advise you to stop seeing the patient girl… for now.

You’re going to have to—sorry!—talk to the wife about your frustrations and the possibility of opening up your marriage. Because the only way your dick is going to work with other women, NCSO, is if you’re not risking everything with it.

mail@savagelove.net

113 replies on “Savage Love”

  2. Nah, I think it’s real but WAY too much information. No kid, male or female, should get pussy-eating or cocksucking lessons from either parent. Ew ew ew ew.

  3. @1 I know people with parents that psychotic (literal Bible-beating-wise, anyway), and also people whose parents had no concept of TMI. It doesn’t seem that far-fetched to me.

  4. @NTTWT I’m the wife in a husband/wife/boyfriend polyfidelitous V, and we came out to all three of our families only after the three of us had been happily living together for two and a half years.

    Their families are great, and we’re usually ALL invited to holidays and weddings and such. My family are conservative evangelicals, and they threw an epic temper tantrum. Things are still awkward, over a year and a half after “coming out” as poly, and I don’t know if they’ll still be part of our lives when kids enter the picture down the road. For now, I’m content to keep minimal contact with them (they’re quite a distance away), and hope that several more years of seeing how happy I am will erode their harsh judgments a wee bit. Who knows? I’m sure not counting on it though.

    So for religious parents (albeit not abusive parents) my advice is to be SURE you’re ready, because you might be underestimating the shitstorm that can develop. I’m still glad that I told my parents, but it was hard to face such harsh words and screaming and so-on. If I could go back and warn myself about what would happen, I would still say “tell them – you’ll have to eventually,” but I’d want to brace myself better for the emotional upheaval part.

  6. No Catchy Sign Off Is it really worth risking destroying your family, devastating your children and messing up your finances just because you don’t find your sex life exciting? For Chrissake, get OVER it, man up and find other things to worry about.

    Maybe it finally happened. The Almighty struck someone down because he screwed around on his trusting wife.

  7. I love the advice in letter #1. I’m in a couple of longterm relationships outside of my marriage, and one of them is threatening to make it to ten years! (I’ve been married for 18.) I’ve seen married folks dump the spouse and kids and shack up with their new “flavor of the week”, and get COMPLETELY accepted by their families, no questions asked. THESE people have no shame, so neither should most folks. I don’t run my lifestyle choices by anyone who I think won’t understand, let alone anyone who I think will ridicule me, and I suggest the same for anyone else who likes to think for themselves. (I love you, Dan Savage!)

  8. Oh, and I forgot to add, you young folks in the first letter – you’re still in the throes of what we sex education types like to call NRE – new relationship energy. Be very wary of making decisions that affect your life and the lives of others while under this spell. Good luck!

  10. @1: I’m hoping the “bible tied to a rope” bit was metaphorical, but then again I have social worker friends and they have stories that trump that.

  11. I can’t get past the idea of someone’s dad teaching them to eat pussy. I just hope to God he wasn’t using mom to demonstrate.

    Ugh ugh ugh ugh ugh.

  12. Holidays? I’m amazed that NiTTWiT (see what I did there?) is on speaking terms with the mother in law at all. After an outburst like that, she wouldn’t be welcome in my house, and I sure as hell wouldn’t go to hers, holiday or no holiday.

  13. @7 I think you’re underestimating the personal and emotional damage that kind of long term sexual relationship can do to a person.

    I was with a partner (a man – I’m a woman) who was very similar to the wife described by NCSO. The constant sexual rejection, and the lack of fun when it did happen, meant I believed that I was deeply unattractive in all ways and that sex was boring (at best) and deeply unpleasant (at worst). Despite his constant reassurances that it was his low sex drive, not something wrong with me, it felt like it was my fault. This is something I am still working on, with the help of a kind and sexually active (and patient!) partner.

    Don’t underestimate the longterm psychological effects of being in a relationship like that. I’d also say good luck to NCOS in talking to his wife about opening things up – I tried that after many years of barely any sex life and was told, through his tears, that he wasn’t prepared to let me do that (though he also wasn’t prepared to work on improving our sex life). I realised I had to leave soon after that, after seven years.

    I empathise with NCOS and wish him the best.

  14. I’m surprised letter one got past Dan’s bullshit detector. Clearly, it is a trial balloon floated by HBO for a cable “reality” series. Way cheaper than actually producing a four-show pilot.

  15. If NTTWT is for real, I don’t see why there needs to be any kind of immediate disclosure. The girlfriend can come along to the wife’s holiday functions as a family friend (not a lie) and the marrieds can go along with her to her family stuff in the same capacity. If the relationship lasts, no reason to come out of the closet. Let the relatives figure it out on their own.

    I don’t see why they’re going near either woman’s family though – sounds like about as much fun as being beaten with a sock full of quarters. Or a bible attached to a belt, I guess.

  17. NTTWT is bullshit – 23 and already married and seeking a 3rd? Yeah okay…

    WIFE – Kudos to you for really working at meeting your husband’s needs! Hopefully he’s meeting your needs as well.

    NCSO – Infidelity sickens me, but when people get married too early and for the wrong reasons, these things can happen. Not to sound judgmental, but why didn’t you call your wife out on her sexual selfishness/boredom before you felt the need to cheat? Sex is just as important to a relationship (or marriage) as the emotional component…

  18. I’m assuming LW#1 brought every new girlfriend home to the family for approval, regardless if he’d been dating her two minutes or two years. Personally, I think 23 is too young for anyone to get married, so I sort of wonder how long THAT relationship will last, let alone the poly one. But introducing a new girlfriend around as part of your poly arrangement sounds more like bragging rights than trying to be inclusive of your new “love”.

    LW#3, your body obviously isn’t ready for cheating, as much as your mind wants it. Maybe you can persuade the wife into therapy because it sounds like deep down, you’d rather have her than the new girl. If, during therapy, you disclose that you want more sex or you think you’re too different to continue your marriage, and if she shoots you down (or agrees with the divorce), then it sounds like you’ll work just fine.

  19. Yeah, I have no idea why people think it’s better for a woman who’s borne a man children, helped him form a household, and cared for him as a partner and friend to have to submit to a boring pronging that she wants nothing to do with then it is to acknowledge that sex isn’t necessarily the center of a successful marriage and go find someone who *does* want to touch his dick occasionally. Like, I’m not pro-cheating, but if it’s cheating or guilting a woman you purport to love into having sex she doesn’t want and doesn’t like, goddamn, cheat, just keep it safe.

    However: mothers of young children who are being pawed at all day by drooling, pants-pooping toddlers *often* report just wanting to go to sleep without anyone else touching them. And women who are breastfeeding or on the Pill often report that the hormones make it hard to maintain arousal – trust me, if it was normal for men to be on medication that meant that they couldn’t keep a boner for more than thirty seconds, decades on end, people would be a lot less complacent about it. Having sex also takes time, and the average married woman has about thirty hours a week less free time than the average married man. I know theoretically open marriages where the wife has a stronger sex drive, where she hasn’t found three hours together to go on a date in a year. Seriously, I have to question how these men whose wives don’t have time to take their clothes off are finding time to meet people. I still think it’s better than making a busy woman who can’t get a ladyboner put “service husband” on her to-do list OR ELSE. I just also think it’s kind of bullshit, on a wider scale.

  20. #18 (tREBLEFREE) wrote:
    Not to sound judgmental, but why didn’t you call your wife out on her sexual selfishness/boredom before you felt the need to cheat?
    ***

    You need to go back and read the letter again. The advice-seeker has tried to talk with his wife about how seldom they have sex, and nothing’s changed. She probably thinks he won’t step out on their marriage to satisfy his desire for more sex.

    If he follows Dan’s advice, and he should, the conversation about how he wants the opportunity to have sex with other women is going to be a wake-up call for his wife! It might blow up in his face, too, but it’s better for him to put his cards on the table than it is to sneak around and hope his wife won’t figure out what’s going on behind her back.

  21. Just a reminder: If you post a comment here, then go visit other websites, you’ll need to refresh this page the next time you visit it, in order to see new comments (including the one you posted). It’s a quirk of the commenting software.

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  22. Given NTTWT’s opinion of his mother-in-law and his wife’s feeling that she needs her mother’s approval, they might want to be sure they’re on the same page before considering any disclosure. Even if they are, telling his legal mother-in-law seems likely to result in an increase in attempted marital interference. The wife’s mother could well decide to blame him for everything. She might be able to create enough pressure to cause the marriage to crack, and there’s enough on that plate as it is.

  23. I can’t accept that letter #2 is real. I mean, it probably is, It just sounds like one of those ‘great on paper, terrible in execution’ concepts that you realise when he’s backlogged so much that his pops out one bio-emission in 25 seconds that could fill the base of the Stanley Cup.

  24. Thank you Dan! In the final sentence to WIFE, you made a casual mention of how long term denial/lack of orgasm for men can possibly lead to prostate cancer.

    This is a very important piece of information, of which I believe most guys are not aware. This is the first time I’ve ever seen it mentioned in print.

    This is exactly what the prostate is there for, and it needs to be able to do its intended job or it will begin to shut down, one way or another.

    This is a prime example of “Use it or Lose it!”, and why we should never leave our sexual function only in the “hands” of others. (As in only when there’s a partner involved or available.)

    Keep it up! (The good work, I mean…)

  25. Is NCSO still getting morning wood? If not, he should definitely get checked out by a doctor.

    But if he is getting erections in his sleep, then nothing is wrong physically. I think he should explain his plans to his wife, perhaps stopping off first to talk to a lawyer about his options if she files for divorce.

    After all that, when he wants to continue things with the girlfriend, they should focus on other sex acts for a while, and, like WIFE, see his orgasm postponement as foreplay for the hot sex they will eventually have together. He should get good at giving the girlfriend orgasms (might try giving some no-strings-attached orgasms to his wife, too, if he can still stand to touch her).

    Give it a couple of months, and when he’s used to the new situation, his boners will start coming back.

  27. @24 Yes #2 is real I am in the same boat and >30 yrs married. I decided to experiment with a GF and when nothing happened, she balmed herself. I saw a Dr got the blue pill rx and we proceeded to have agreat time. After a few years she married and ended it. I still use the “V” at home and also once in a while outside just to feel some excitement again. Also it does no good to suggest experimenting with new things to a spouse who really wants nothing more than as little sex as possible.
    sb

  28. I’d add to the comments to NCSO that it helps to be really really clear what you want to achieve and “why” – I’m surmising that he’s deeply confused at the moment, and possibly that’s emerging in his performance problems (i.e. they’re symptomatic).

    I wouldn’t address this with the wife until he has that clarity – it helps if he can also get to a place where he’s trying to achieve a good result for all of them.

    When I had the clarity, I was extremely resourceful with my anti-GGG wife, and that really helped to get her to the negotiating table. And we have been able to turn things round and she is now GGG.

    I didn’t cheat, but I make no judgements about that, and am contemptuous about those who do castigate cheaters in those circumstances – the situation is horrible, you really don’t want to be there. When you’re in an exclusive sexual and emotional long-term relationship, you both have a duty of care to the other in whatever language they prefer: that’s what GGG’s about. And if you aren’t able to get there, then don’t be surprised or get on moral high-horses if the relationship disintegrates.

  29. Tell your wife you are inches away from cheating because of your lack of sexual compatibility. Get counseling and therapy for the both of you, and if she doesn’t start putting out more, file for divorce. You are about to open a door that you will never be able to close. People change over time, and they don’t always change together. This is fine. But don’t lie to compensate for your unhappiness.

    It would be better for you to divorce than to cheat, unless your wife is terminal or has a health condition where sex is impossible.

    I really don’t understand people these days. Isn’t life complicated enough as it is without lying to the person you love?

  31. There’s some hot stuff out there for folks who are into orgasm denial. One forum is: http://chastityforums.com/. Some of the men there have been orgasm free for quite a while, and are in good health. The prostrate can be played with separately from the penis, after all.

  32. I think there are cases where cheating is clearly acceptable and the humane suggestion, however, when I read these letters from writers who want to cheat I find that that is very rarely the case. Talking is a good start but how is he approaching these talks? Nobody wants their sexuality criticized. Is he approaching her in a way that is accusing and shuts her down or does he try to turn her on? Talking about sex can be sexy! They have three kids. How old is the youngest–could there be a hormonal reason for her lack of interest (like nursing)? Also, is she overburdened at home? If so, don’t be surprised that you’re not getting any. When there is a work/power imbalance sex can feel servile, and not in a nice way. 😉 The itch to cheat can be intense; be sure you’ve really tried and are not just rationalizing a dishonest decision because the results can be devestating.

    I guess it’s not much of an issue with this letter writer since he can’t get it up anyway, but there are legitimate reasons to cheat and really lame excuses for cheating. It would be helpful if the letter writers wrote more about what they’ve tried to do to get their spouse interested (other than tedious nattering)–Dan could even make suggestions about what might be more effective.

  33. My husband and I have been chaste life for a few months now. His cock is locked and I get to choose when he is released for orgasm. I can honestly say we are having more fun and more sex than we have in years–this after 3+ decades of marriage.

  35. I’m sorry but what FOOL in their right FREAKING MIND would self-deny an orgasm for CRYING OUT LOUD.

    Hell in a handcart, all of us.

  36. Have to agree with Devoted. My and I are in a chaste relationship now, and the sex has never been hotter or more frequent. He just doesn’t orgasm often. He LOVES it. Says it is like riding the high for days/weeks at a time. We are not old (mid20’s&30’s) and have no infidelity issues. Just having fun!

  37. I toss the yogurt about alone and sex is just fine. Sounds like it’s your attention spans that need attuning, not the ratio of ejaculation!

    (all said with love, in peace, slightly baffled)

  38. I think the prostate health issue is overblown. There’s just no serious research to support the claim either way.

    I’ve been living the chastised lifestyle for two years and, even though I only orgasm about once every three months, find it to be the best, most rewarding sex of my life.

  40. For those advising a Viagra/Cialis prescription: That sounds like a really good way to get caught cheating on your wife. Unless you can keep the prescription in a locked box and tell the wife nothing about it, she’s likely to wonder why you have boner pills and who you’ve been fucking while under their influence.

    Also, as someone with a parent with TMI syndrome, the pussy-eating lessons sound totally normal.

  41. Regarding letter #3: If the guy seriously wants to stay married to his wife of 12 years, he should dump the girlfriend, read up on chastity, and give it a try. I know of several couples who have salvaged foundering marriages through chastity and orgasm denial. My marriage was in good shape and doing well so we weren’t dealing with that issue but even so, sex and communication between my husband and I have improved tremendously in recent months. And our experience is not unique.

    It’s not weird, it’s fun.

    D

  43. I fail to see where living chaste will bring a man more orgasms. His wife certainly, him, not so much.

    That said, I’m going to take this opportunity to shamelessly pimp my new blog dealing with male chastity. Nuts4belle.wordpress.com

    *runs away*

  44. I think cheating is usually wrong because if you’re breaking a promise *you’re*breaking*a*promise*. Fix what’s wrong with your marriage, talk out your problems, determine whether you can compromise or open things up, but don’t lie to your primary partner. Or any partner. And if that means you break up, then you had a good run. Congrats. Move on.

  45. Thankfully, of all the posts here, only #18 and #19 were posted by judgmental toads. It takes some stones to put one’s stuff out there, even if anonymously.

    It’s not put out there so bitter people can spread their toxins around to others. Way to make this all about YOU and your dysfunctions, by laying those judgments out there.

    Be proud.

  46. I have to agree with Thumper (#40) there is little evidence to suggest that reduced ejaculation causes prostate cancer. There have been TWO studies that have found a relation between number ejaculations in earlier periods of life and risk of prostate cancer. Compared to men who ejaculated less frequently, men who ejaculated more frequently, i.e., (~4-7 times per week) were ~33% less likely to be diagnosed with prostate cancer. One study was in Australian men and the other was in the Health Professionals Follow-up study (non-physicians but health professionals) so not exactly generalizable to the U.S. population. These findings constitute the sole evidence for a link between ejaculation frequency and prostate cancer risk.

    In other words, not such a lot of evidence. Finally, even if there WERE a relationship, CORRELATION IS NOT CAUSATION. In other words, just because you see a connection, doesn’t mean one thing causes the other (e.g., carrying a lighter around doesn’t cause lung cancer but you can bet that people who do have a higher risk of lung cancer).

    A Prostate Cancer Researcher

  47. I have to agree with Thumper (#40) there is little evidence to suggest that reduced ejaculation causes prostate cancer. There have been TWO studies that have found a relation between number ejaculations in earlier periods of life and risk of prostate cancer. Compared to men who ejaculated less frequently, men who ejaculated more frequently, i.e., (~4-7 times per week) were ~33% less likely to be diagnosed with prostate cancer. One study was in Australian men and the other was in the Health Professionals Follow-up study (non-physicians but health professionals) so not exactly generalizable to the U.S. population. These findings constitute the sole evidence for a link between ejaculation frequency and prostate cancer risk.

    In other words, not such a lot of evidence. Finally, even if there WERE a relationship, CORRELATION IS NOT CAUSATION. In other words, just because you see a connection, doesn’t mean one thing causes the other (e.g., carrying a lighter around doesn’t cause lung cancer but you can bet that people who do have a higher risk of lung cance

  48. Beaten with a bible tied to a rope?

    Oh yeah. Sounds familiar. Her mom also used to lock her in a cupboard screaming: “DIRTY PILLOWS!”, right?

    Heeeey, wait. I though her mom died in that story? In any case do not go to any formal dances with this woman. She does not deal with disappointment well. And two words I would not mention: Pigs blood.

  50. Hey NTTWT,

    It’s real simple: You don’t have to follow the same policy with all three sets of parents. The parents who are sane enough to cope, deserve to be told. The ones who swing bibles and back-bite are another matter.

    It sounds to me like the real debate that’s taking place is not over whether to tell the bible swinger (– I’m sure none of you are in favor of that –) but instead between you and your wife about whether to tell her mother.

    It doesn’t sound to me like your relationship with your mother-in-law stands to suffer much in any case. If your wife really wants to arm her mother with more ammo to use against her kids, my $0.02 is: let her.

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