I’m from the other side of the country, but I’m sitting in my lover’s San Francisco apartment wondering what I’m doing. I flew out here to spend five glorious days with her. We connect sexually (she’s a Dom stone-butch top, I’m a queer femme sub), we connect intellectually, and we make each other laugh. I’m head over heels for her and for this city.
But she’s literally twice my age. In no way does this bother me. She’s handsome and wonderful, and I’m so proud to be with her. But she frets that she’s too old for me and will die before me and it isn’t fair to have the feelings we do.
I can hang on to this ledge, Dan, and not let myself utterly fall for this woman so that she doesn’t break my heart when she says we must part as friends. I think that is what is coming. But I know she feels conflicted, and I can’t see anything wrong with the two of us enjoying what time we have together. Why deny something we both want, if it’s what we both want?
If I have to just walk away from this with a slew of great memories of a loving introduction to the greatest city on earth, there are certainly worse things. But I wish I could convince her to at least let us have a chance.
Lost In Fog Everyday
Start with the clichés—”Age is just a number,” “I could get hit by a bus tomorrow,” “Someone’s gotta change your diapers”—and finish with a grace note: You love her, and you want to be with her, and you hope you’ll always be close, whatever she ultimately decides.
That said, and forgive me for this, LIFE, it’s possible that although this woman is what you want, you’re not what she wants—for reasons that have nothing to do with age. She may be pointing to the obvious age discrepancy because it’s a convenient, face-saving out, a way for her to pull the plug while sparing your feelings.
So a word of warning: If she cites age, you may be tempted to press your case—and you should, up to a point—but press too far, and she may wind up telling you the inconvenient, face-squandering, feelings-spearing truth.
I’m a bi male in a long-distance, long-term, and hypothetically poly relationship, and I’m going to a speed-dating event soon.
Our relationship is “hypothetically” poly in that my boyfriend and I have not had a third in a few years. I’ve had a couple dates in that time (with both guys and girls), disclosed, introduced them to my boyfriend, etc., and done everything a good poly boy is supposed to do. I didn’t end up dating any of them, just from lack of personality/sexual compatibility.
I’ve never been to a speed-dating event before, though, so I’m not sure about protocol. I think that bringing up bi/poly would make the whole five minutes (or whatever) about that, and I’d really rather talk about mutual interests etc. Sexual orientation is a rather overdone topic to me, and talking about only that wouldn’t let me figure out if I’m even interested in the other person. I’m not embarrassed by it at all (I’m completely uncloseted); I’d just rather talk about more interesting things.
So should I disclose during a speed date that I am (1) poly and/or (2) bisexual, or should I save it for a follow-up date?
Speed Disclosure
I tried to contact a few speed-dating businesses but couldn’t find one with a contact phone number on its website—and that fact, coupled with the Mountain-Dew-swilling-teenager-on-MySpace quality of the sites, kind of makes commercial speed-dating services look tawdry.
Anyway, SD, disclosure is called for when a routine, obvious, and logical assumption is incorrect. Since most people are straight, the onus is on the gay person to come out. Since most gay people aren’t morons, the onus is on members of GOProud to identify themselves before disrobing.
Other speed daters are going to make the reasonable assumption that you are (1) single and (2) gay or straight, depending on whether we’re talking about a gay or straight speed-dating event.
That said, SD, due to prejudices beyond your control—biphobia, polyphobia—you may omit the bi/poly info about yourself on that first five-
minute date. But you’re obligated to disclose before a second date is arranged. Not to spare the women and/or men you might wind up dating from the unspeakable horrors of going out with a bi/poly dude, but to avoid wasting time on women and/or men who can’t handle it.
I am a 19-year-old straight male who is only attracted to chubby girls, though I myself am rather skinny. It took a while, but I’ve learned to embrace this (though at first it seemed almost as scary as if I were to come out as gay). However, the problem I seem to have now is that the girls whom I find attractive—big girls—don’t think of themselves as attractive, and that is a turnoff for me. Despite what seems like constant effort on my part to raise my exes’ confidence in themselves, they never got any better and the relationships always ended. I’m not exactly bursting with confidence myself, either, but I tried my best to be a loving and supportive boyfriend. Yet time and time again, their images of themselves somehow seemed to actually turn worse, not better. I attribute a lot of their initial insecurity to the media, but I can’t help but believe I somehow screw up and exacerbate it.
Troubled Horndog In Need
You’re young and you’ve accepted your attraction to bigger girls, THIN, and that’s great. But the girls you’ve dated—presumably close to your age—are doubtless still struggling with all the shit that’s been thrown at them about their bodies. To grow confident about something that caused you a lot of pain—to say nothing of being with someone who’s attracted to you in large part because of that something—can take time.
That said, THIN, if all the bigger girls you’ve dated emerged from your relationship feeling worse about themselves and their bodies… you might be doing something wrong. Were you treating your girlfriends like human beings and talking about their bodies in a way that made them feel attractive? Or did you treat them like fetish objects?
I’m a gay college student who’s into bondage and kink. I’m also very involved with the Episcopal Church and want to become a leader in my church. I don’t think that my predilection for bondage and my desire to pursue ordained ministry conflict, especially because I am fairly monogamous. Is there a conflict?
Wannabe Ordained Kinkster
I don’t see a conflict, WOK, but I am not now, nor have I ever been, the Archbishop of Canterbury. If you can meet and marry a nice boy who shares your kinks, and you remain successfully monogamous, and you have no desire to go to the Folsom Street Fair or post play pictures of yourself on kinky personal sites, I don’t see how your coreligionists will learn about your sexual interests, much less be scandalized by ’em.
That said, WOK, um… I have nothing more to add. Fuck Sarah Palin, go Bears, preorders: tinyurl.com/4f2g524.
Find the Savage Lovecast (my weekly podcast) every Tuesday at thestranger.com/savage.
This new book says ‘edited by’ Dan… and all the others said ‘by’ Dan…
What is up with that?
THIN,
If you’re flattering your exes by telling them that you like chubby girls and you think their curvy bods are amazing, that may still really sting. I had an ex tell me that I shouldn’t feel self-conscious about my big butt, because he loved it. As an awkward, shy teenager – that really didn’t help matters. Be honest about being attracted to them, but you don’t have to slather it on – you don’t need to keep bringing up the fact that you love them for being big. It can take us girls some time to get comfortable with our bods and ourselves.
THIN, try NOT mentioning that you are attracted to them because of their size. Just be attracted to them …
Maybe part of THIN’s problem is that he’s insecure himself, and so is only asking out people who are insecure. You can’t change other people, THIN, so start by keeping your eyes open for women who are high in self-esteem, whatever their size.
SD, poly speed dating exists, as a concept. If there isn’t any where you live, SD, you could try starting it.
The internet is your friend: Poly@polyamory.org is a mailing list devoted to polyamory, and maybe it will help you connect with people in your area who might also be interested in poly speed dating. The poly people I know sure seem to do a lot of dating…
@THIN: in addition to what Dan said, most girls at that stage in their lives have confidence issues of some kind. At 19, I was still reeling from years of being told I was so skinny I “made people sick”; at 19, most of us are struggling to shed the teenage torments we had to endure (as you yourself admit to as well). The wise boy will take this into account.
the clogging of the penis with a bitof semen is a cumclog.
Alex Dunne
@8: The GOP itself quite often doesn’t make sense!
Spot on advice, Dan, to LIFE and THIN!
HA! “fairly monogamous”
and THIN, if you ever mention to them that you are attracted to them because of their weight, then you probably are making it worse.
As a fairly large gal myself, Dan is spot-on with the comment about “treating them as fetish objects”. That’s what I’ve encountered with self-professed chubby chasers and it is a HUGE turn-off to know that they are ONLY interested because of my fat ass. Get to know the girl, get to know her interests and share those with her. Don’t go on and on and on about how hot her curves are. A well-placed compliment from time to time will go a long way.
@yourmom.com: It says edited because Dan and Terry chose the selections contained in the volume and may have edited some for clarity, brevity, consistent style, or whatever. As the description of the book clearly states, and as the It Gets Better project is based on, these are contributions from celebrities and others hoping to give young people hope and strength. Dan and Terry didn’t write them, so they aren’t the authors of the volume.
@THIN, sometimes these deep-seated issues seem to get worse once the person with the issues feels safe — REALLY safe — to disclose them to you and start working through them. These things can take months or years to overcome.
If you choose to get involved with another Big Beautiful Woman who is still coming to terms with the twin facts of her bigness AND her beauty, I’d suggest patience, patience, and more patience. Telling someone she’s beautiful doesn’t actually do any good. Showing someone she’s beautiful and that you want to be with her will give her the safety to work on her problems — if she wants to.
And in that theoretical future relationship, if you see evidence that she’s working on it, I’d encourage you to stay the course and keep being her safe person for those months (or longer) that really dealing with these issues can take.
To WOK, It will depend on the diocese in which you seek ordination. In Fort Worth, Texas, or Stockton, California, you would have little hope of being ordained, simply because you are gay. In San Francisco, your kink would not be no impediment whatsoever, as long as you are reasonably discreet and maintain healthy and preferably monogamous relationships. You could march next to the Bishop in the Gay Pride Parade (I have), and, notwithstanding what Dan says, the Folsom Street Fair is not necessarily off limits as long as you don’t post photos of yourself on Facebook, and you might even run into some of your colleagues there. Unfortunately, you’ll also find a large surplus of gay Episcopal priests chasing a very small number of openings for parish priests.
As someone who has been invovled with mentoring several young women and men who have explored potential vocations as an Episcopal priest, I would certainly say that your kink should not be a major issue. If you truly called to the priesthood, you will be called in the totality of your personhood, kinks and all, and the unconventional perspectives about the power dynamics involved in human relationships which you gain from your involvement with bondage may inform and serve your ministry.
That said, WOK, I would advise you not necessarily to rush into ordination — not because you are gay or into bondage, but because you are a young man. Get some life experience first, get a non-Church job, maybe go abroad, do some lay ministry. It will allow you some space and perspective in which to consider whether you truly are called to the ordained ministry and ultimately make you a better priest if you are.
@12
Yeah, THIN, I smell what you’re stepping in. Take the above advice to heart: Tell your gf she’s looking especially pretty today, or that outfit makes her look hot, keep everything non-specific and general.
That being said…. Consider older women. They’re generally more confident in their bodies and themselves.
If THIN is pursuing only women in his age group, maybe he should just hang loose for a couple of years or more. There are plenty (obviously: we’re Americans!) of self-confident BBWs out there, me included, and we’re older than 19.
Re: This new book says ‘edited by’ Dan… and all the others said ‘by’ Dan…
What is up with that?
Uhhh…it means Dan edited it but didn’t write it…
This is a collection of letters written by Dan’s readers. Dan collected them, edited them, and made a book out of them. He did not, however, write these letters himself
As a chubby girl who has dated more than a few thin guys (though I prefer a man with more muscle), it is TOUGH to not feel gross with your bony man, even if he’s all over you. Not to mention how shitty it feels when he tells you how much he loves his “in shape” new girlfriend after you break up.
My boyfriend weighs less than I do, and it made me really self-conscious for the first, idk, year or so we were together. I had a hard time believing he could be attracted to me, b/c compared to him, I am fat. And his ex had small breasts, a flat stomach, etc. With other boyfriends, I’d felt much more confident in my body.
This goes against what a lot of people are saying here, but the comments that helped me the most were ones that indicated he likes that I am curvy, and when I hear that some of his favorite celebrities are the curvy ones with bodies like mine. If he avoided talking about my body and commented instead only on my face or hair or whatever, it would make me think he felt my body was a flaw he needs to overlook. If he were to never mention my body, I would assume he doesn’t like it.
Why should THIN’s exes have self-confidence? This society shames fat people, especially fat women. They would be completely delusional if they were brimming with it. That being said, I agree with the other comments: Don’t fetishize them.
Dan,
YOU FUCKING SUCK! Abortion rights are literally being taken away from women. You do NOTHING to put that message out there – call your rep, call your Sen., talk to your friends – do every damned thing possible to tell American gov’t to leave women’s rights the hell alone….yet you’ll peddle your repeated messaging about bullies ONLY in the lgbt communities.Newflash – women have been at the forefront of EVERY MAJOR CIVIL RIGHTS CAMPAIGN, but in ensuring basic healthcare access for women? It’s all ladies.
I’ve got a message for you, but Cee-Lo sings it better.
Re: THIN’s question – I am not a tiny wee thing, but neither do I qualify as BBW; I still struggle with the same body dysmorphia bullshit that pretty much all American women do. At one point, though, I was a solid 14/16 because of serious health issues. In that phase, some of the only men who sought me out were chubby-chasers, and it made my existing discomfort with my body exponentially worse. Some women are healthy at that size, and proud of their bodies, but I was not. I did not want to be pursued ONLY for a body that caused me physical and psychological anguish – it is really hard to look in the mirror every day and find a mismatch between your internal idea of yourself and the physical reality. Regardless of her size or shape, THIN, no woman wants to be reduced to a type or to feel that only her body is important to you.
THIN- why don’t you look for a big gal that’s obviously comfortable with her size. someone who is approaching your ideal. it sounds like you are trying to pick a wallflower and grow her into something she isn’t comfortable with. also remember, she’s a human being. you meet lots of those. don’t get hung up on a body type, find the person you click with first. theres plenty of fat porn out there to satify your fat tooth if you do find yourself having relations with someone who is ‘less’ than you’ve imagined. and at 19, whatever you hitch your wagon to is never going to get you all the way to your destination. as previous posters have said, confidence comes with age, and you’ll find yours with someone and someone will find theirs with you.
thats at age 19, not at poster 19 LBChubber
THIN, in addition to the good advice you’ve already been given, you might be able to spot the more confident women by the clothes they wear. If she knows what looks flattering on her, draws attention to her curves in a tasteful way, wears some jewelry, accessories, then she’s probably much more confident in herself than someone who tries to hide in sweat pants and a t-shirt 2-sizes too big. And if she’s wearing a mumu and crocks – forget it – that one has given up completely.
Why would anyone take advice from an absentee father?
THIN, one thing you will find as you get older, once the big girls get past these forced-upon-them hangups, the ones that come out shining will have an amazing self confidence that normal range male-gaze-attractors rarely have. The sexuality of a confident big girl is unique, and I for one can’t get enough of it.
Hmm I wonder which person on this thread is desperately looking for attention for his idiotic blog!? HMM
@AbsenteeDaddy, you lost the advice columnist death match with your poor grammar. Go away.
To WOK:
What Poster 15 said.
I work with the Episcopal Church as a vendor. If you are going to be a young priest then please for the love of god be a useful one.
The church is a business and you need to get business skills. For example you may want to go into evangelicalism. If so you need marketing skills.
No matter what your ministry is you will need real world skills to manage it.
Take a few years to get these skills, save money for school and make sure you are truly called.
15: “…you’ll also find a large surplus of gay Episcopal priests chasing a very small number of openings for parish priests.”
And a number of parish priests’ very small openings!
Dan is dead on this week. good advice to THIN, although tbh it is hard to talk any woman out of her body issues.
THIN, I was in your shoes at one time, and I ALWAYS told the women I fell for that they were gorgeous and that I loved to be with them. Never told them I fell for them because they were large, and always emphasized how much they turned me on. The 4 larger women I was with became more confident, saw themselves as sexy, and then I had to worry about other guys zooming in–the women saw themselves differently, and other people did too.
As a big girl who has dated mostly thin guys who liked big girls, the things that put me off the most were this: one, the guy who is obviously crazy about you but keeps you from the rest of his life (maybe he’s embarrassed that he likes big girls but his friends won’t) and two, the BAD modern lingo. I had one guy tell me I was a beautiful “thick” or “phat” girl. It sounded horrible. So if you’re going to laud your lady with praise, make sure you keep it “civilian” and use the right kind of language. “Beautiful” always means “beautiful” but the meanings of some slang doesn’t always translate, especially if a woman is slightly sensitive (or in my case, it’s age).
@ THIN: If you make the person’s physical appearance the focal point in determining who you will form a relationship with, you are dooming yourself and the unfortunate people you end up with. Certainly being sexually/physically attracted to someone is on the long list of attributes that lead to good relationships, but if it is THE attribute that got you together, the predicted shelf life of the relationship is about the same as a gallon of milk.
Re: That Said.
I’m a proponent of trusting what I’m being told & not reading too deeply into it; odd, I know, for a shrink. So my advice is as follows:
Femme, I think you’re right to trust what she’s telling you. I suspect her concerns are indeed about her age. Sad, actually, to think that if she were a man she’d likely have no reservations about the age difference. But she’s spent her life being told what women of a certain age shouldn’t do, and dating a hot young woman is on the top of the list.
Let her know that you’re starting to become concerned that the end is near and that regardless of her reasons, it’s still a rejection. Challenge her to make peace with the age difference and agree to pull it off the table. It’s certainly not fostering safety within the relationship.
@ AbsenteeDaddy: In that context it’s “Dan and me” not “Dan and I in an advice columnist death match”. Just sayin…
Great advice this week! Anyone else get the feeling he read the post on Jezebel yesterday about why he shouldn’t be on MTV? Today’s letters seem just a little too topical…
@34 lol
I’m a thin guy with a bigger boyfriend. I like it but he doesn’t, both because the guys he thinks are hot are my size and because he’s not as energetic or as comfortable in his skin as I am.
Use discretion with compliments on and attitudes toward weight.
When we were first together I was more explicit about it and it wasn’t well-received. It’s not that he didn’t believe me – i mean, he saw the type of guys I’d look at online – but he wants to be thinner for his own self-esteem and well-being. Personally, I think it’s good to respect that too. But that said, I’d be with him if he lost weight too (of course, “how much” is a subject for debate). So I just do my best to love him with my body and mind and don’t go much further than complimenting (from the neck down) on his clothes. He seems much happier about that.
ALSO, pre-ordered IGBP book for my high school library. Don’t know if they’ll accept it or not…but it is PUBLIC school, so they may well be pleased to receive a brand new book.
I disagree that THIN shouldn’t be able to tell his girlfriends why he finds them attractive.
If someone likes what they see, they have every right to say it – it’s incumbent on the woman in possession of said set of fashionably questionable curves to learn to take a compliment.
The problem, THIN, is your age. You say you’re 19, so I’m guessing that if you’re not in college, you are probably dating at least a few girls who are. College means the freshman 15 (or 30, or 45), so for a lot of these girls their chubby status is probably a) new, and b) thought of by them as an aberration that will disappear within a few months as soon as they start that all-lettuce diet and make time for a five-mile run every day. Not only are they still deeply uncomfortable with being chubby, but they probably don’t know how to react to a man they may like, but who is attracted to a quality they’re actively trying to minimize.
As you get into your 20s, you’ll find a higher percentage of women who are cool with their bodies. Of course, you don’t need to wait for your 20s if you don’t want to – just date some older women. I can pretty much guarantee that, unless you’re in a town with a population over 400, there’s at least one chubby 30-something who wouldn’t say no to a skinny teenage boytoy. Have fun!
lol @29
in re:male urethral blockage after sex or masturbation.
hi dan. another boring hetero guy here. i’d like to suggest coulter as the annoying blockage that occurs from dried semen on the end of the dick after sex or masturbation. it’s annoying and so is ann. thanks!
@1 I suspect it has to do with the fact that he wrote the other books, (they are written “by” him) and in fact edited this one (it was not written by him).
That is, traditionally, what “edited by” means.
Gotta say, THIN, as a thicker girl who’s dealt with self-esteem issues: stop trying to “fix” your gfs self-esteem issues.
Number one, it’s not your responsibility, it’s theirs.
Number two, it’s hard to trust someone who’s constantly trying to shove sunshine up your butt, because after a while it starts coming off as disingenuous.
Number three, when you’re always trying to boost someone, every compliment can amplify their self-loathing. They know that you’re aware of their self-esteem issues, and your “constant effort” to boost their self-image can begin to feel like a criticism. Compliments are most effective when they’re sprinkled, not showered.
And Dan’s right, don’t fetishize women because their big. Initiate conversation because they’re big and you’re attracted to them, start dating them because you like them as people.
THIN, one more thing. You sounds like you both loathe and love fat girls. The fact that coming out as a fat-lover was more difficult than coming out as gay indicates that you honestly believe there is something VERY wrong with liking bigger women.
It’s like being racist but having a fetish for Black women. At some point, there going to sense your inner conflict and it’s going to make them feel like shit.
You should work on yourself, and on seeing fat women as normal women. If you’re ashamed to be dating them, then their self-esteems going to take a major hit, whether you’re complimenting their fat asses or not.
A much more interesting column than last week. Great advice.
And @ 41, I hadn’t noticed, but now that you point it out, he handled size issues tangentially, bi/poly at least in terms of etiquette, and female age concerns…all without setting off a shit-storm. All kinds of warm fuzzies here in the thread.
@ 49, Might a better analogy being a guy into black women in the antibellum South? I.E. not that he “believes there is something very wrong” with digging big women, but that our culture does, hence the inner-conflict.
“…analogy be being…”
Sorry.
@23 Ms.11, are you fucking kidding? Not only has he written about it, listen to his podcasts – Dan is constantly talking about reproductive rights for women, as well as advocating sex education in schools that teach what choices women have. I think you have a point that most of us gay men don’t have a clue when it comes to women’s rights, but Dan ain’t one of them!
To the guy that likes bigger women, take it from a girl who battles with weight, my husband is a rail stick, and he treats me as if im a size 5 and his wet dream. when i start feeling bad about my size, it isnt anything hes DONE its sometimes I see us together, and see him so skinney and me not. it doesnt last long but it does happen