I am a straight man. From high school through college and after, I loved me some women. Then I met my present girl 10 years ago. I fell head over heels for her. I still love her. But, little by little, she has become boring to me. Our sex life has cooled. Days run together with mundane activities like watching TV, going to the store, and hanging out with our kids.
We own a house, we’re financially stable, we look very traditional. But I am far from conservative. I love nightlife, crazy friends, and good drink. She was aware of this when we met because we ran in the same circles. My boredom is compounded by a craving for sex with other women. It doesn’t matter who—the girl at the coffee shop, the checker at Whole Foods, every chick at the gym—I’m up to my eyeballs in covet.
I want out. I want to be a father to my kids and take care of my wife financially. But I want out. I am a few years from 40. What is the best course of action?
Too Young To Flail
One day, I’m gonna throw my hands in the air and declare that, from that blessed day forward, I shall no longer tinker with the machinery of monogamy. That day hasn’t arrived, as I still have mortgage payments to make and opposite marriages to save—so here’s a little tinkle for you:
You say you want out, TYTF, but are you sure about that? In her book I Don’t: A Contrarian History of Marriage, Susan Squire asks: “Why does society consider it more moral for you to break up a marriage, go through a divorce, disrupt your children’s lives maybe forever, just to be able to fuck someone with whom the fucking is going to get just as boring as it was with the first person before long?” (Emphasis added.)
Writing about Representative Christopher “Craigslist Congressman” Lee last week on Balloon Juice—a blog I read daily—BJ contributor “Mastermix” said: “If we want to do something about the high divorce rate, we might want to get real [about] the role of a discreet, mutually-agreed-upon affair as a safety valve.”
In other words, TYTF, destroy the only home your kids have known and put yourself and the wife through the hell of divorce, and here’s what happens next: You dog around for a few years and before long you shack up with a new woman—a woman who might want or already has a kid or two of her own—and a few years after that, you’re trapped in another monogamous relationship that bores you, and a few years after that, you’re writing to ask if you should put your second wife and your new kids through the pain of a divorce, all so you can make an embarrassing pass at a barista who has zero interest in fucking you.
Instead of putting your current family—and your hypothetical second family and that poor barista—through that, TYTF, why not risk leveling with the wife you’ve got now? Your marriage is already on the ropes, TYTF, so you don’t have a lot to lose. Ask to have a “safety valve” installed on your marriage in the form of permission to have a discreet, mutually-agreed-upon affair, should the right opportunity/barista present itself/herself. It may not be a pleasant thing for your wife to hear, but “I’m leaving you to go fuck a barista to be named later” won’t be music to her ears, either.
She may surprise you, TYTF. It’s entirely possible—I hope you’re sitting down for this—that you bore her just as much as she bores you. If she’s itching for a few adventures of her own, social and sexual, then spend whatever money you were planning to spend on lawyers and counseling for your kids on flying grandparents in to look after the kids while you two head out for a weekend away.
But if all she wants is to stay at home in front of the TV with the kids, tell her that to preserve your sanity and, paradoxically, your marriage, you’re going to go out and have some adventures on your own.
If she leaves you over it, TYTF, then you got what you wanted: out.
I’m a 31-year-old lesbian. My girlfriend is in her 30s, but save for a few one-night stands, she has never been with a woman before. I’ve never had better sex than the sex I’m having with her. When I try to talk to her about this, she gets anxious and makes self-deprecatory comments. I want to be with her for the long haul—our dreams fit together—I just need to figure out how to communicate with her about how great our sex is. Got any advice?
Communication
Breakdown
Yeah, CB, I’ve got some advice for you: Shut the fuck up.
I had this awesome new boyfriend once, and the sex was so freaking great that I felt compelled to communicate with him about how great it was. “This is so great,” I would tell him. “Let’s try to figure out where all this greatness is coming from!” But he didn’t enjoy talking about sex—particularly while we were having sex—and he got so annoyed with my attempts to figure out where all this greatness was coming from that he eventually asked/advised/ordered me to shut the fuck up.
Keep fucking the girlfriend’s fucking brains right fucking out, CB, but shut the fuck up. Odds are that she’ll learn to relax and open up about sex, like my boyfriend did. But in the meantime, CB, try to resist the urge to lesbian this thing into the ground by communicating it to death.
For several months now, I’ve had a growing attraction to one of my good male friends. I am an open bisexual male, and my friend is “straight.” We’ve had relations—me blowing him, him jerking me—but he’s adamant that he is not attracted to males at all. He nevertheless sleeps with me in my bed when he spends the night.
The plot thickens: A couple days ago, my “straight” crush ordered an eight-inch dildo, molded from a real dick, complete with balls! He got it to use on himself! He says because there’s not going to be another male present when he uses it, and thus no romance, the act will be “straight.” I define being sexual as enjoying not only the sexual interactions possible between preferred genders, but also the emotional satisfaction, or romance. Does he have a point?
Absolutely Hate Acronyms
Wasn’t there “another male present” when you were giving him blowjobs, AHA, and he was jerking you?
Maybe if your “straight” friend wasn’t accepting blowjobs from another man and swore on a stack of vintage Playboys that he would be fantasizing about a lady-parts-having woman-person pegging him when he jams that dildo up his ass, then maybe—maybe—he could be believed when he claims to be a straight dude into anal penetration. But a guy who fails to mention a burning desire for pussy to shore up his straight cred—particularly in conversation with a dude who blows him—and instead falls back on a lame “no homo” rationalization (“Hey, it’s not like the dildo brought me flowers or anything gay like that!”) is a lot of things, but straight ain’t one of ’em.
If your straight friend manages to fuck some sense into himself on that dildo, AHA, you might want to take a turn on it yourself.
Find the Savage Lovecast (my weekly podcast) every Tuesday at thestranger.com/savage.
@ 205 – For the record: none of my female friends “give up” sex for security, so that’s not my impression of women. Coincidentally, perhaps, none of them are married; they live in countries where they are protected by law no matter what type of relationship they have.
BTW, everyone, “If/then” sentences are, by definition, rhetorical.
EricaP, a lot of your posts make me rather sad. This is a presumptuous thing to say, but I hope that your husband a) appreciates the strength of your commitment and how rare it is to get that from someone like you ie, not a goddamn doormat b) deserves this level and quality of commitment and c) makes it worthwhile to you. Talking about who “deserves” love is mostly a nonstarter, since it’s the kind of thing that just happens, but I hope that he deserves it nonetheless.
@ 205 – I forgot: I AM glad I’m gay, but it has absolutely nothing to do with women, or my not wanting kids (which I knew before realizing I was gay).
It has to do with the fact that, once you accept that you’re not so-called normal, you’re kind of forced to question most of society’s other assumptions about what is normal (monogamy & promiscuity, religious beliefs, etc.) and you get to choose only those that suit you. As a consequence, you’re a lot more free and a lot more in tune with your own needs than most people. In fact, I pity straights who have to come to terms at one point with not being so-called normal in other ways: since the rest of their life is so normative, it’s a lot more of a challenge for them to admit and accept their difference. From what I’ve seen, at least. And yes, there are gays who don’t want to questions those assumptions, who would like to fit the mold, etc. But this is my perception of the general situation.
PS: Please note everyone that I said “so-called normal” and don’t start a useless debate about the use of the word “normal” in relation to sexual orientation.
Dear Dan S.
I hope you are having a wonderful day. I am utterly bored at work and thought I’d read the Riverfront Times(St. Louis) to see what people are writing you about. I thought of an idea.
Firstof all, I love reading your column. Sometimes it’s the only thing worth reading in this (expletive) paper. However I would love to see what your readers think about people like TYTF, whom wants out of his marriage so he can go fuck whomever…whenever he wants. I would love to hear what his wife thinks about this! We only see his selfish side of the story. There are two parties involved in a butt-fuck. Now that we hear the dick’s side, I’d like to hear from the butt.
Is there a way to make this happen Dan? Perhaps the readers should just chime in.
Keep up the good work.
Dan M.
St. Louis
@208 – at first, I felt bad that I am bringing some sadness to your life. But I think the truth is that I really enjoy being able to post honestly about things I can’t talk about with my friends. That means I’m not doing the normal level of sugar-coating. Please be reassured that I am happy, joyful even, about my choices in life. And I very much appreciate the opportunity on Slog to write anonymously and openly about difficulties I face, even in the happy, joyful life I have chosen.
@202 Erica, I’m confused. Do you mean 45 minutes is too long when he’s bad at it or that 45 minutes is always too long?
@208 I would say the same.
oops! not 208, but 211
two votes against text speak. I always assume the writer is a fairly ignorant person since they fail to communicate in English and skip the post, as I don’t feel like translating.
And really….there are a LOT of girls out there who like to fuck just for the sake of fucking. Perhaps not up to the %’s of males….but hell, we are out there.
EricaP….45 minutes is too long?????? Hell girl, wanna shot at my hubby? Lol. You would love him. *rolls eyes*
Ricardo – I was just trying to point out that the “screw ’em, don’t need a man, I’m an independent woman!” thing is unrealistic for most women who want families. What sh3wnn said.
And we all have to accept consequences for our choices, including those who choose to get married in response to an ultimatum.
It’s totally understandable that a woman would ask a man to make that decision, yes, even in ultimatum form. She IS finding a man who wants what she wants – she’s checking if this man is him. If he’s not, she leaves. What else is a girl to do? Ask every man she meets “are you planning on marrying me?!” It’s not valuing marriage over the relationship. It’s valuing family and wanting to know the intentions of the man. Love doesn’t make eggs last any longer.
And who said anything about staying home with the kids? I don’t want that. I don’t know anyone who does, even if it were possible. We’re just talking about having kids in general.
Legal protections – that’ll be the day. This country is unlikely to ever provide the sort of social services that make that possible in other countries. Americans will never accept the taxes that support such services.
Big picture: college is unnecessary for a lot of people. Making college required to succeed and having parents mostly pay extends teenage-hood into the early 20’s. Which means at 25, nobody’s quite ready to get married. Which means by 30, it’s serious go time. Which means women start freaking out, and men smell the desperation and run the other direction.
Wait for times to change or work to change the times. Or try these tips on landing a trophy husband:
http://www.ehow.com/how_4714209_trophy-h…
BTW I’m a househusband.
@Richardo
I guess I wasn’t clear enough in my post. Women both want/enjoy sex AND want security. It’s when you see the two desires as somehow opposed that marriage starts looking like a business transaction.
I myself do not withhold sex for security; of course, I get constant messages from both the society and my immediate circles about how that means I’m guaranteeing I’ll end up un-married. I post on a love advice forum, and MY GOD, you will not believe how many guys post anxiety-strewn, misogynistic rants about how many guys their girlfriend/fiancee has been with (despite the GUYS having an equal if not greater number.) The more you “give up” sex, the more you subtract guys from your dating pool, as it’s still a very common belief that women should be both virginal and sexually adventurous.
You could argue that these men weren’t really worth having in your dating pool anyway, but then you’re told that you’re going to end up alone because you’re too picky.
I think a lot of women want to get married partially just to end all the anxiety, shaming and judgment. Hell, I even suspect women get married so they CAN finally enjoy sex. Marriage is meant to erase the shame and fear around being a sexual being, because you finally have a space in which to express your desires without your partner judging you.
@206
If a woman is completely honest and upfront about what she wants and who she is, the potential for swindling is only decreased by one half. – the half where she swindles the guy is removed.
The guy is still perfectly capable of saying he’s cool with that, dating her indefinitely, enjoying the availability of the free pussy, promising marriage without proposing, then scampering off.
A woman can have the honesty ethics of Kant and still be vulnerable to this swindle.
I don’t see where you’ve presented a solution to this for the women.
If you know of a way that women can remove this risk for themselves without, in any way, raising the stakes for the men by withholding sex or presenting ultimatums, I don’t think you’ve shared it.
You’ve made it clear that you have a lot of distaste for the fact that these women are engaging in serious risk management. I agree that it is distasteful but I still seems necessary. It’s why I’m glad I don’t want kids.
Because love was the only thing I wanted, I had the luxury of finding a man I loved and giving him all the love I had to give. I don’t think it’s about my character or that I’m especially loving or giving. It’s a luxury and that is all.
@209
A completely different point I wanted to set aside.
I have definitely noticed the difference you’re talking about. Not for nothing and for what it’s worth, you speak truth. I see this difference.
@Ricardo: Right on!
@212, 215 – let’s see, if it’s great sex and I’m getting my orgasms, then, sure, I can go for days. Not finding much of that out there. I like getting stuffed full with cock, but the novelty wears off after 10 or 15 minutes, and then I need something more than just the old “in-out” to keep me interested.
I was responding to Ricardo’s reference to guys offering “free dick” in exchange for the “free pussy” I’m offering them. If attractive guys were offering more tongue and fingers, instead of so much free dick, that would be more appealing. Or they could try being more welcoming to my Hitachi. Either way.
@222 Oh, that makes sense. You definitely need to mix it up. No loitering. You have a lot of reasonable expectations. From reading SL I would think you would have better luck out there.
Hey – Too Young to Fail
Not to be disrespectful, but you are simply pathetic. Those people you are considering emotionally abandoning are called your FAMILY. They love you, depend upon you, and probably look up to you.
But your dick is twitchy. Plus, you are hitting 40, and staring into the great void of imminent mortality, and asking yourself “Is this all there is?”
Here is a cautionary tale: My ex felt the same as you – and wanted to experience one last spurt of adolescence. And hey, at one time, we used to hunt chicks together – so monogamy was not the real issue (as it is not with you, TYTF).
So, he lost 30 pounds, dyed his hair, bleached his teeth, and cheated on me with a girl (who looked) nearly young enough to be his grand-daughter. I found out, he announced he wasn’t ready to be a father (we had a 6 month old baby).
Flash Forward: He lost his family. He lost his friends. He lost the respect of everyone who had respected him. He regained the weight, plus some – and now lives in the basement of some friends. He pays no child support, as he has no money. He’s old, he’s lonely, and he’s ALONE.
I – on the other hand, live in Europe with a man 14 years my Junior who loves my kid and me passionately. We hunt pussy together now and then, just to keep things interesting.
You are not TYTF – keep on the path, and you will find yourself failing shortly.
Hey – Too Young to Fail
Not to be disrespectful, but you are simply pathetic. Those people you are considering emotionally abandoning are called your FAMILY. They love you, depend upon you, and probably look up to you.
But your dick is twitchy. Plus, you are hitting 40, and staring into the great void of imminent mortality, and asking yourself “Is this all there is?”
Here is a cautionary tale: My ex felt the same as you – and wanted to experience one last spurt of adolescence. And hey, at one time, we used to hunt chicks together – so monogamy was not the real issue (as it is not with you, TYTF).
So, he lost 30 pounds, dyed his hair, bleached his teeth, and cheated on me with a girl (who looked) nearly young enough to be his grand-daughter. I found out, he announced he wasn’t ready to be a father (we had a 6 month old baby).
Flash Forward: He lost his family. He lost his friends. He lost the respect of everyone who had respected him. He regained the weight, plus some – and now lives in the basement of some friends. He pays no child support, as he has no money. He’s old, he’s lonely, and he’s ALONE.
I – on the other hand, live in Europe with a man 14 years my Junior who loves my kid and me passionately. We hunt pussy together now and then, just to keep things interesting.
You are not TYTF – keep on the path, and you will find yourself failing shortly.
I find the whole “she knew I liked to get drunk and have crazy friends before we got married” argument a little hard to take. If you knew that’s what you’re about, why’d you get married?
@ 216 – First, I didn’t say that YOU wanted to stay at home with the kids, or should, I used that as an example (indefinite “you”), and also mentioned others at the end of the paragraph. This is a debate about somebody else, I’m speaking rhetorically throughout – I’ve said that twice already.
I also know it’s impossible, or near-impossible to have it all, considering the level of social services in your country (from what you say, I don’t really know the details), so their are choices to make. For instance, if you really want a kid and a career, you might have to go freelance for a while and work at home so you can raise the kids. Lose some security, but not your income (just an example, please don’t tell me it doesn’t apply to you because of the nature of your work blah blah blah, it’s rhetorical.)
As for your statement that “Americans will never accept the taxes that support such services”, well, that’s sad, but the funny thing is that they already do: just reduce the size of your military and stop inventing yourselves enemies to go to war against, there’ll be plenty of money left for social programs and a whole lot more. So it’s not a question of money, but priorities.
You say “And we all have to accept consequences for our choices, including those who choose to get married in response to an ultimatum”. Indeed, But those who accept the ultimatum when they don’t actually want to (which is what started this debate, see my post @ 115) are IDIOTS succumbing to social pressure (“She’s right, we should get married, everyone tells me I won’t find a better one” type of thing). That’s not a basis for a solid marriage. And if you (impersonal you) want to get married to such an idiot, well, what does that make you?
If you (personal you) find the ultimatum thing in any way understandable, I’m puzzled. A relationship that needs ultimatums to go forward is one you should have left a long time ago (preaching what I practice here). If a couple follows your advice, “Know what you want, and pursue it from the beginning”, either the guy who doesn’t want the kids-and-marriage thing will get tired of hearing about it long before the ultimatum comes, or the woman will see telling signs of his lack of interest. AND THEY SHOULD ACT ON IT. As you said yourself, it’ll save you a couple of years.
@ 218 – I’m sad to hear that your society is still that shaming and judgmental.
I thought we’d collectively learned something from feminism.
Looks like that battle needs to be fought all over again.
@ 219 – There is no solution that I can propose for women, because it’s not a women’s problem, it’s a relationship problem. People in general are immature and lie to get what they want. Men, women, doesn’t matter. The best you can do is to be upfront about what you want from the beginning, and then hope that the person you’re with is as honest as you are. But as soon as you realize that he/she isn’t, LEAVE.
Ultimatums only serve to deepen the lie.
And yeah, that means that some people will not get the happy loving family they wanted. But they won’t either if they go about it any other way, they’ll just have an unhappy, hate-filled (and often broken) family.
Honesty IS the best policy, but there is no guarantee in life that you’ll get what you want. Ever. We all need to keep that in mind. Honesty doesn’t guarantee it, neither does manipulation. You just have to do the RIGHT thing and hope for the best, but keep your eyes open for signs of the worst.
PS: My disdain (“distaste” is too weak a word) is not reserved to women who do some “risk management”, it is directed equally at all who choose to manipulate those they say they love, including the men you describe who lie about their intentions.
@ 222 – I only said “free dick” in response to 194, where I was told that guys only wanted free pussy… (I’m pretty sure they also like tits and want BJs.)
Rhetoric, people, rhetoric!!!
Obviously, if a guy only offers dick, and no tongue and fingers, he probably also is just that: a dick. But that’s not what we were talking about, is it?
228- I get that you’re not referring to me re: stay at home moms – I just didn’t see who you *were* referring to. Hypothetical person – gotcha.
It would be really nice if we spent less on military and more on social issues, but then we’d have to stop being so mouthy. Clearly, this is not the American way. But then, I’m still of the mindset that it’s shameful to accept handouts. It’s a weird mix of self-flagellation, pride and self sufficiency.
But I don’t think it’s as black and white as all that re: ultimatums. Say, like me, you’re in a relationship that’s fantastic, but there’s no proposal yet. It hasn’t been years, but you know where you’re going with it, you just don’t know where he stands. Men are really good at being completely happy in a relationship but not being “ready yet”. So you have a discussion where you basically have to lay it on the line: ” I love you, I’m really happy in this relationship, and I would love to marry you. If that’s not where you’re going with this, I’m going to have to move on. Marriage and a family are important to me.” Is this an ultimatum? Kinda. But how else are you to know? Assuming, hoping, waiting is not a smart move. You have to discuss your needs and goals in a relationship, and sometimes you run up against a deal breaker – and that’s when people part ways. If he had said, I don’t plan on getting married for five more years, I would have been out. I love him, but I also love me.
@231 – and if the fingers are for 2 minutes, and the tongue for 5 minutes, and he bitches about the noise my Hitachi makes, and also wants me to stay put while he pumps me for 45 minutes straight, and sulks when I won’t put out for anal … then he’s a dick. Yes. But I’m telling Slog, that’s what I find, in the NSA crowd. I guess guys put more effort into girls who are “dating” material. For me, with a husband and all, they are just out for what they can get, and show no interest in my pleasure. So I don’t see them again. But it’s fucking depressing that I can’t find good NSA sex out there.
@231 – but, okay, I take your point to be that if a woman has good sex with a guy, sex she loves, then she shouldn’t threaten to leave.
If she *does* threaten to leave, clearly the great sex isn’t the top priority in her life. Not when she’d have to tell prospective fathers-of-her-children, “Well, I should tell you that I come with some baggage, in the form of my long-time lover who doesn’t want kids but does make me swoon with desire.” I doubt that conversation goes well.
@233 What about polyamory? Is that not part of your agreement or not something you want? I suppose you would have to wade through a lot of overgrown teenagers in the NSA pool.
EricaP, thanks for recommending “Passionate Marriage.” I’m already enjoying it.
@Ricardo:
1. Marriages are contracts. They always have been and there’s nothing wrong with that. It’s sad when they’re only contracts, though.
2. As a straight guy, ultimatums aren’t bad. She wants me to make up my mind on something important to her promptly? That’s just reasonable. Bad is: “Hi honey, guess what? You’re a father! Hope you wanted to be, because you’re paying the tab either way.”
@all: Where can I find some of this “free pussy” people are talking about? All of the women I’ve ever met expect me to pay at least half the cost of dating (and many if not most describe guys who only pay half the cost of dating as “cheap”).
(I don’t mean that as a complaint. I’m just observing that what’s being called “free pussy” usually isn’t.)
And where can I find someone like EricaP? I’m not under any illusions about my non-existent studliness, but I’d like to think I can do better than “don’t nag me about anal after I’ve said no” and “at the very least, don’t get in the way of the Hitachi”!
@235: I get the impression Erica is meeting married men who are trying to get from her what their wives won’t give them.
@185
Combover, sports car — innocent. But I do have a cool bicycle.
Grey chest hair — guilty as charged!
In my fifties — incredibly guilty! Closer to 60 than 50, in fact.
So why does any of this mean I’m supposed to kind of curl up and die instead of seeking involvement with hot ladies? Perhaps it’s because of the assumption that ladies in their 50s are not eager, willing and in fact pretty good at sex.
@ 238 – In my not so humble opinion, if people wait for their partner to give them ultimatums before they start trying to satisfy the partner’s desires and needs, I’d rather not be their partner. I don’t think they understand what makes a relationship work. And consequently, if you need to give ultimatums to your partner in order to have your needs satisfied, you should be looking for somebody else instead. Everyone concerned would be happier sooner.
I cannot find one example in my whole life and that of all the people I know where this rule didn’t apply.
@235 lol. Is there a question there? My BMI is about 20, does that answer your question?
@236 – life with two young kids and a husband is already full enough that I don’t really want another relationship, just a sexy friend to see a couple of times a month. A lot of guys say they are also looking for a couple of times a month. I think it’s just a matter of being patient, to find someone I click with.
@237 – glad you’re finding it helpful. It made me realize that my personal insecurities were obstacles for my marriage and I couldn’t put off facing them any longer.
@238 – thanks for the friendly remark. For the record, I don’t knowingly sleep with married guys unless they’re honest with their wives.
@ 232 – Re: your hypothetical situation.
What keeps the woman from proposing, then?
Now, before you answer me with reasons a woman shouldn’t propose, think about whether or not those reasons reflect the fairytale view of marriage that I spoke about earlier in this thread. If they do, they’re not valid. And that includes “tradition”; this is, as I keep saying, the 21st Century.
@ 233 – It’s depressing for all of us, dear… But the fact is that there aren’t that many good lovers out there.
@235 – wait, I see your question- why don’t the guys work hard to please me, if I’m offering NSA sex and I’m not fat? My sample size is just 11 guys (and one girl :-), since opening up the marriage. Maybe other women could chime in, if they’ve found NSA sex to be good or bad. That would help us determine if I’m the problem (too argumentative? too difficult to make come?) or if there’s just a lot of bad sex out there.
I don’t see how fat is relevant in any way. Any person you have sex with deserves your best effort, which includes lots of continuing education right?
@245 I was parsing Hunter78’s question about my weight, but I agree that it shouldn’t be relevant.
As for lots of continuing education… I wouldn’t want to be didactic, but sharing information with an enthusiastic partner is fun 🙂
@238 – “what’s being called ‘free pussy’ usually isn’t.”
TANSTAFP should join TANSTAAFL (there ain’t no such thing as a free lunch) among acknowledged truths of the world. With my husband I joke about him having access to conveniently located, already-paid-for pussy.
194: “So when are mature guys gonna retire the whole terror about “being after the wallet” and realize that security is just as natural a want in love as sex is.
When there is an equivalent to alimony that involves pussy instead of money?
@Erica
Thanks – I’m glad my comment read as friendly; it was intended to be but you never know how these things will read over the Internet.
I think the person who suggested polyamory may be on to something. Obviously you don’t want a second romantic relationship, but if you’re seeing someone on a repeated basis you’re by definition in a relationship with them and so you might as well be friends. The risk with that is that the guy decides he wants it to be more than casual, but that risk is inherent as soon as you start considering repeat encounters with the same guy.
I have no idea how casual the casual end of “polyamorous” relationships is (I’ve never been in a polyamorous relationship myself), but it’s probably worth checking out. At the very least, some of the methodology and experience polyamorous people have had is likely to be relevant to your situation.
11 turkeys in a row is a sign the current method is not working. The 12’s probably not going to be any better.
TYTF, guess what? It’s not your wife’s responsibility to make your life interesting, not is it her fault if you don’t find it so. You need to find your own fulfillment. And if, at almost 40, it’s in drinking and screwing, then YOU my friend, are an immature jerk.
You say you still love your wife? Another news flash – you don’t. Not because of anything wrong with her, but probably because you’re not capable of it. If you loved her, you wouldn’t think of destroying her life and your home just because you want to (*&^ other people. Also you don’t love your kids. WHAT? you might say…A mature love would not mess up their home and their lives for something so trivial. You sound like you’re not capable of real love for another person. You sound like you’re not capable of anything but selfishness.
You want to be a father? Then suck it up, be a man, and continue to create a solid home for them. That’s what mature, adult men who love their families do. It’s not about you. Deal with it.
@249 – I’m interested in hearing from women on this matter. Women, please share your experiences! Are half of the guys you sleep with good in bed, more than half, or less than half?
(Maybe my standards are too high because I have great sex with my husband. But, recently, some of our best sex is after I come home from having sex with someone else…Fucked up, I know.)
Great use of “lesbian” as a verb on the second letter. Can you use it in a positive sense next time.
@251 How is that f’d up? It seems natural that a little fresh perspective and excitement away from your husband would translate into extra enthusiasm when you get home. You are unbelievably lucky to have someone who not only isn’t jealous of your outside explorations but who actually gets a charge out of them.
239 – it’s not that age means no more hot ladies. It’s that ladies half your age will probably not welcome your advances.
242 – I would have no problem proposing marriage. The only reason I wouldn’t is if I know the answer already, or know that the man would feel like I stole his moment. Whether I’m traditional or not, I respect men who feel like that’s something they want to do. I don’t need doors opened for me, but I’m not going to prevent it. And I don’t know how you think people should talk about their needs. Telepathy? I’d bring up marriage well before it was marriage time, just so we both know that it’s on the table.
244 – crappy sex is partially womens fault. Every woman who hasn’t spent time figuring out what pleases her, who doesn’t “know how” to communicate her needs, or who doesn’t think her needs are important or fakes it is contributing to totally false male ideas about women’s sexuality. There are assholes that don’t care, but there are many many men who haven’t been taught, who don’t know if she wants an orgasm, is capable of orgasming, or how to ask. My last boyfriend had not a lot of experience, and was unaware that it was totally unacceptable to just go for it without communicating with me about where I was on the orgasm trail. I agree, lots and lots of sex is technically unskilled. The main problem for me has been getting to the in out too fast, and going too fast once there.
@251 – have you considered that the reason you have great sex with your husband is because you know him and have invested years in getting to know him — and he knows and has invested in YOU — in countless ways that these one or two date NSA partners cannot?
@253 – f’d up because I go have bad sex with strangers so that I can have wild sex at home. My preference would be to skip the NSA sex, but I love the joy and excitement it brings to my marriage, in the retelling. Maybe I just need to improve my story-telling, like Scheherazade.
@254 – agreed, bad sex is everyone’s fault, in a culture that discourages women from talking about their needs and discourages men from hearing & understanding them when they do.
@255 – yes, absolutely. But see my reply to 253 for why I’m still out there looking for fun NSA sex.
@251 It’s been my experience that one-night stands or NSA incidents have been pretty lousy. If I don’t have some kind of a connection to someone mentally, then the physical just fizzles out. Maybe you should be looking for friends-first and lovers-later, instead of just putting out and expecting fireworks…
@ 254 – “I don’t know how you think people should talk about their needs. Telepathy? I’d bring up marriage well before it was marriage time, just so we both know that it’s on the table”
That’s how I imagine it. Just like you said. You talk about what you want and how you want it from the beginning. Then you monitor your partner’s reactions: Does he give you vague, noncommittal answers? Does he always look down or away when marriage (or any other subject that matters to you) is broached? Does he try to change or avoid the subject? If so, he’s not interested, and you know what to do.
Do not ever take non-commitment as a sign of possible change and future commitment. It isn’t. As Dan pointed out recently, when you’re getting mixed signals, just take the negative ones, the rest is sugarcoating.
At any rate, there should never be a need for an ultimatum, because the response you’ll get with an ultimatum is rarely going to be honest. “Oops, I think I fucked it up, better try and save whatever I can of this relationship before it’s too late, later I’ll think about what to do next” is the more likely reaction… not that your partner would say that out loud to you, but that’s still what he would probably think when his back is put against the wall.
Is that a good basis for a relationship? No.
It all comes down to what you said already: “Know what you want, and pursue it from the beginning. Quit dating people you KNOW you’re not going to marry. Men, don’t hang around out of obligation, or fear of change, or whatever chicken-shit reason you stay with women who aren’t the One or whatever. Women, stop expecting him to change (he won’t), don’t stay with a man who isn’t what you need for fear of being alone, talk about your plans in concrete, reality based ways (no “someday”) and if he runs, he wasn’t the guy and he just saved you another 2 years”
So… why are you and I debating? We totally agree on this.
@251 – i’ve got a fairly small sample size, but i’d say about half of men are good in bed. what’s interesting is that the ones who THINK they are amazing in bed are the ones who just want to mechanically move in and out for an hour. they really do believe you’ll love it. it’s the ones who are less cocky (no pun intended) who are able to really be present that end up with skills…