I am a straight man. From high school through college and after, I loved me some women. Then I met my present girl 10 years ago. I fell head over heels for her. I still love her. But, little by little, she has become boring to me. Our sex life has cooled. Days run together with mundane activities like watching TV, going to the store, and hanging out with our kids.
We own a house, we’re financially stable, we look very traditional. But I am far from conservative. I love nightlife, crazy friends, and good drink. She was aware of this when we met because we ran in the same circles. My boredom is compounded by a craving for sex with other women. It doesn’t matter who—the girl at the coffee shop, the checker at Whole Foods, every chick at the gym—I’m up to my eyeballs in covet.
I want out. I want to be a father to my kids and take care of my wife financially. But I want out. I am a few years from 40. What is the best course of action?
Too Young To Flail
One day, I’m gonna throw my hands in the air and declare that, from that blessed day forward, I shall no longer tinker with the machinery of monogamy. That day hasn’t arrived, as I still have mortgage payments to make and opposite marriages to save—so here’s a little tinkle for you:
You say you want out, TYTF, but are you sure about that? In her book I Don’t: A Contrarian History of Marriage, Susan Squire asks: “Why does society consider it more moral for you to break up a marriage, go through a divorce, disrupt your children’s lives maybe forever, just to be able to fuck someone with whom the fucking is going to get just as boring as it was with the first person before long?” (Emphasis added.)
Writing about Representative Christopher “Craigslist Congressman” Lee last week on Balloon Juice—a blog I read daily—BJ contributor “Mastermix” said: “If we want to do something about the high divorce rate, we might want to get real [about] the role of a discreet, mutually-agreed-upon affair as a safety valve.”
In other words, TYTF, destroy the only home your kids have known and put yourself and the wife through the hell of divorce, and here’s what happens next: You dog around for a few years and before long you shack up with a new woman—a woman who might want or already has a kid or two of her own—and a few years after that, you’re trapped in another monogamous relationship that bores you, and a few years after that, you’re writing to ask if you should put your second wife and your new kids through the pain of a divorce, all so you can make an embarrassing pass at a barista who has zero interest in fucking you.
Instead of putting your current family—and your hypothetical second family and that poor barista—through that, TYTF, why not risk leveling with the wife you’ve got now? Your marriage is already on the ropes, TYTF, so you don’t have a lot to lose. Ask to have a “safety valve” installed on your marriage in the form of permission to have a discreet, mutually-agreed-upon affair, should the right opportunity/barista present itself/herself. It may not be a pleasant thing for your wife to hear, but “I’m leaving you to go fuck a barista to be named later” won’t be music to her ears, either.
She may surprise you, TYTF. It’s entirely possible—I hope you’re sitting down for this—that you bore her just as much as she bores you. If she’s itching for a few adventures of her own, social and sexual, then spend whatever money you were planning to spend on lawyers and counseling for your kids on flying grandparents in to look after the kids while you two head out for a weekend away.
But if all she wants is to stay at home in front of the TV with the kids, tell her that to preserve your sanity and, paradoxically, your marriage, you’re going to go out and have some adventures on your own.
If she leaves you over it, TYTF, then you got what you wanted: out.
I’m a 31-year-old lesbian. My girlfriend is in her 30s, but save for a few one-night stands, she has never been with a woman before. I’ve never had better sex than the sex I’m having with her. When I try to talk to her about this, she gets anxious and makes self-deprecatory comments. I want to be with her for the long haul—our dreams fit together—I just need to figure out how to communicate with her about how great our sex is. Got any advice?
Communication
Breakdown
Yeah, CB, I’ve got some advice for you: Shut the fuck up.
I had this awesome new boyfriend once, and the sex was so freaking great that I felt compelled to communicate with him about how great it was. “This is so great,” I would tell him. “Let’s try to figure out where all this greatness is coming from!” But he didn’t enjoy talking about sex—particularly while we were having sex—and he got so annoyed with my attempts to figure out where all this greatness was coming from that he eventually asked/advised/ordered me to shut the fuck up.
Keep fucking the girlfriend’s fucking brains right fucking out, CB, but shut the fuck up. Odds are that she’ll learn to relax and open up about sex, like my boyfriend did. But in the meantime, CB, try to resist the urge to lesbian this thing into the ground by communicating it to death.
For several months now, I’ve had a growing attraction to one of my good male friends. I am an open bisexual male, and my friend is “straight.” We’ve had relations—me blowing him, him jerking me—but he’s adamant that he is not attracted to males at all. He nevertheless sleeps with me in my bed when he spends the night.
The plot thickens: A couple days ago, my “straight” crush ordered an eight-inch dildo, molded from a real dick, complete with balls! He got it to use on himself! He says because there’s not going to be another male present when he uses it, and thus no romance, the act will be “straight.” I define being sexual as enjoying not only the sexual interactions possible between preferred genders, but also the emotional satisfaction, or romance. Does he have a point?
Absolutely Hate Acronyms
Wasn’t there “another male present” when you were giving him blowjobs, AHA, and he was jerking you?
Maybe if your “straight” friend wasn’t accepting blowjobs from another man and swore on a stack of vintage Playboys that he would be fantasizing about a lady-parts-having woman-person pegging him when he jams that dildo up his ass, then maybe—maybe—he could be believed when he claims to be a straight dude into anal penetration. But a guy who fails to mention a burning desire for pussy to shore up his straight cred—particularly in conversation with a dude who blows him—and instead falls back on a lame “no homo” rationalization (“Hey, it’s not like the dildo brought me flowers or anything gay like that!”) is a lot of things, but straight ain’t one of ’em.
If your straight friend manages to fuck some sense into himself on that dildo, AHA, you might want to take a turn on it yourself.
Find the Savage Lovecast (my weekly podcast) every Tuesday at thestranger.com/savage.
258 – We do agree! Just not on everything. For you, ultimatums are anathema. For me, they are sometimes necessary wake-ups. I think saying “If this isn’t headed towards marriage, I’m out” is pretty ultimatum-ish. But it’s also part of a conversation about where the relationship is headed that needs to happen.
Also, the idea of regularly talking about marriage with a guy you haven’t already spent at least a year on is just silly. Say “marriage” to a guy in the first 6 months or even a year and he’ll look at you like you’ve got 2 heads. You can “not right now” and “I’m not ready either” until you’re blue in the face. You still just nearly made him wet himself.
I don’t think all men think about where a relationship is headed in a concrete way. Not until something prompts them. Many are content to float along in happy land until some magic bell strikes (or doesn’t strike) and then they get serious. The problem is, this magic bell seems to strike later and later. For women, it seems to be much more of a priority going in – is this guy marriage potential? For men, it’s more like “am I ready now?” Why bother thinking about whether you want to marry her since you’re not ready to marry? We go about it in totally opposite ways. Thus, a semi-ultimatum is born.
@ 30 –
I’ve included your reply to #28 and I must ask: what colour IS the sky in your world? Geesh. Sometimes, one does have to wonder if these people just materialise after someone moves a rock.
“@28 – Women have largely (not completely) controlled sex and reproduction, which is an ENORMOUS source of power. Patriarchy is part of a counterbalance to that power. The Women’s Movement, as much as I support it, creates imbalance in marital relationships by giving women more power in society and within marriage, without any counterbalance to the sexual-reproductive power women already hold.”
Sweetheart, you can have ALL the “reproductive power” you want and I’LL take the money, the more respect at work, the assumption that “my word” is more intelligent simply because “I’M A MAN!”
What EXACTLY is “reproductive power?” Do you mean the power of ending up on the bread line because of so-called “looking after the family” type political systems deeming “single mothers” as being the scurge of the earth and therefore must be treated as the lowest of the low?
Tsk, tsk… you poor baby. What’s that? You can’t just go and fuck some chick and leave her knocked up with all that “power” because, oh, horror of horrors, she wants to have “rights?” Upset, are you that there are legal ramifications towards husbands who rape their wives?
Oh, wait, I forgot about the “reproductive power.”
What exactly are you driving at? What would be YOUR perfect marriage?
If women have SO much “power” then of course, like you – because surely, you’d expect the same for yourself if YOU had such “power” – they should WANT to be told when and where they can go and with whom they can speak and be ready, willing and able to drop skirt at the man’s beck and call and do ALL the child rearing and ALL the housework because we all know they wouldn’t be working but would live as prisoners in their own homes. I’m certain YOU’D like that trade off if YOU had the “reproductive power.”
What is this, moron day on the Savage thread?
Geesh.
Consider yourself lucky that you don’t live in such times.
As for #11, honey, at least I’m not ruled by my hormones. Women may “periodically” become irrational but men are like that ALL THE TIME. Gotta love testosterone. Before anyone fires off a strongly worded message, just go look up the effects of testosterone in the human body and then go look up PMS. Sound familiar.
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha…
Gloria Steinem said it best but what I don’t get is why are men so scared of women in the first place… Oh, wait. It must be all that “reproductive power” we have. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha….
Oh, and PS, er, women aren’t just empty wombs walking around waiting to squeeze out babies! How would YOU like it if women had ALL the power and told you that YOU don’t have a mind that can be affected by words such as what you’ve written above? Is it really logical to assume that women are just gagging to exercise their “reproductive power” and have NO thoughts beyond that?
Ok, who moved that rock?!
@ 36 – Oh, you said it better than me! I should have read your post before I rambled.
@260, I agree that men often don’t think about starting a family without a push. But there are subtle pushes… Attending weddings & showers together. Pointing out cute babies, talking about other guys you know…
@ 120 – typical troll. Professor of Sociology, eh? How convenient! Yet, with ALL that education, you STILL behave like a 17 – 22 year old boy who “gets off” on being childish.
Nothing new, then.
You DO realise “sociology” IS a “Mickey Mouse” degree. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha…
Sweetheart, it doesn’t matter if you’re “the Professor of the World” you still have A LOT of growing up to do if you’re going to relate to other human beings.
It’s easy to be a smart-arse behind a screen and to make up all sorts of deluded notions of professorship but you really let yourself down by your lack of eloquence.
Professor of whatever, you still HATE WOMEN and no amount of teenage boy “arguing with mummy” will change that.
Now, go play in the street.
Or…@TYTF….you just tough it out. Every hetero, average, horny, regular dude sees 100 women per day he wants to bang. I’m sorry, you are not special in this regard.
And those guys, you know what…They don’t do it. Why? Because boredom in a marriage is normal and inevitable. People that are successful in relationships find a way to make their relationships interesting and fulfilling. They don’t cheat and they don’t bail. They figure it out. They communicate, experiment, fail, and try again, all the while working towards that evolving, winning combination known as monogamy.
So, this is really not about you being bored. It is about you making a bad decision in getting married in the first place. It is about your willingness stop being a lazy douche and do your work.
Or…@TYTF….you just tough it out. Every hetero, average, horny, regular dude sees 100 women per day he wants to bang. I’m sorry, you are not special in this regard.
And those guys, you know what…They don’t do it. Why? Because boredom in a marriage is normal and inevitable. People that are successful in relationships find a way to make their relationships interesting and fulfilling. They don’t cheat and they don’t bail. They figure it out. They communicate, experiment, fail, and try again, all the while working towards that evolving, winning combination known as monogamy.
So, this is really not about you being bored. It is about you making a bad decision in getting married in the first place. It is about your willingness stop being a lazy douche and do your work.
@266 – funny thing about anal, I’m actually open to the idea, I just insist on the basics: lots of time getting me ready (esp. with a new partner), lots of lube, more time, more lube… The NSA guys don’t like that. It makes them nervous that they won’t stay hard that whole time. They say, “why don’t you get yourself ready”? Two guys stuck in in, without lube, after I’d been very clear that wasn’t okay.
It’s not intimacy, Hunter78. They just want a tight hole. The tenser I am, the hotter it is to them. Fuckers.
@266 My point is that by the time you make it to bed with someone fat is irrelevant. You owe that person respect.
@ 260 – If you come up with the word marriage on the second date, I’d say you’re lesbianing the relationship (you know, the joke about the u-haul truck).
What you can do as early as the first date (depending on the type of first date, obviously) is slip into the conversation that you’re ultimately looking for a serious relationship, and you can mention that you want children. I did say “slip into” and “mention”, ok? Not talk about it for an hour. Not say that your life won’t be complete without marriage and children. Just mention it.
If he balks then, gee, how much time and effort have you just saved yourself?
In my experience, there are two types of straight guys: those who want a family (the majority, yes) and those who don’t. They’re not as obvious about it as women, generally, but if you see the guy grow uncomfortable at the mere mention of these subjects, he’s part of the latter group. It’s easy!
If a woman thinks that ultimatums are sometimes necessary, it’s because she’s not very good at reading cues, or she’s good at it but she keeps hoping that her guy will change (in violation of your rule…). No other guy in the world ever has, but of course, hers will. Because she’s so special.
Ladies, I have some news for you: rocks are more prone to change than men. What a guy wants the first day is the same as what he’ll want after ten years (remember TYTF?). But what no guy wants is to imagine his life turn into a set of responsibilities. That’s the waters you have to navigate.
Every man is still an adolescent inside, so if you shove the word “commitment” in his face at every turn, he’ll go running the other way. (Careful: if a man talks about commitment, he’s really thinking about the woman’s). If getting married seems like an obligation, forget it. If having kids is a duty, he won’t want to. Unless he’s succumbing to societal pressure, that is, but then he’ll blame the woman who “did that to him” for everything that’s wrong about his life ten years later (remember TYTF?).
Men who want kids actually want to literally re-produce themselves, to have a “mini-me”; basically, a toy in their image. “Fun” is the key word, not “obligation”.
The same goes for the relationship. If he thinks he’ll have fun with you for a long time, he’ll be willing to go a long way; if you make him feel that you’re on a tight schedule to achieve your family-oriented goals and that he looks like the set of genes you’d like to do that with… good luck.
(OK, I exagerated a bit here to get my point across, I admit it.)
@268 You really need to catch before you’re permitted to pitch.
@268 Also, you’re earlier call for quality time spent with fingers, tongue, and Hitachi equally apply to anal.
Your
@ 268 – I still get that after 20 years. Now it’s the fear of not staying hard, before, well, they always had some other excuse.
Men are children. Big spoiled brats. They want their toy and they want it now.
@269 Hunter78 is a jerk. He has admitted that he wants to figure out what’s wrong with me, because it’s hardly possible that I could have encountered 11 selfish guys in a row. Yet I don’t see any women posting here about all the hot NSA sex they’ve been having, to undermine my results.
How about you gay guys? When you have NSA sex, how often is the other guy too selfish to help you get off? 25% of the time? 50% of the time? more? (I know you yourselves are all sweeties and the epitomes of generosity 🙂
@271 – in an ideal world, yeah.
@274 – yep. Especially if you take accountability off the table with NSA sex (I’m not girlfriend material; I can’t rat them out to their real friends).
@275 Ideal? Bring your own dick along and demand he self-demonstrate his technique. It’s called an entrance exam.
“Only 1 time out of 100 is non-monogamy going to be what the wife is looking for, too. “
I guess this person never met any swingers. HaHa!
I think he should talk to his wife about a need for adventure and doing fun stuff again, date nights etc. And then I think they should work their way into a little swinging. A sexual adventure they could enjoy TOGETHER. It is not cheating if you are doing it together. Many if not most swingers are “same room only”. Maybe if he saw how much someone else wanted his wife it would make him appreciate her more. Plus variety for both of them. Assuming she has a wild side that she has suppressed as of late- she might love it if they are able to communicate about it.
Just a thought. He obviously loves her if he still wants “to take care of her.” Maybe they can find a “win-win”
Yeah, Ricardo, I know enough about men not to scare them off. I’m just saying a LOT of them get itchy when marriage/kids come up, even the most loving, committed ones. It’s still a scary big deal. See “cold feet”, see every person getting married ever, see the razzing, last chance bachelor parties, and generally freaked-out-edness of most men re: marriage. I think you’re making a molehill out of a mountain. You can be as awesome as anything, and it doesn’t make getting married any less scary. Especially if you ARE the right kind of man – because the right kind of man doesn’t run the fuck off like TYTF, who seems to think the world is a merry-go-round of gratification. And yes, there are definitely signs he DOESN’T want to get serious. There are a lot less signs he does. He can be happy as a pig in a pile and still have this idea that he’s not getting married til X, or he needs to do Y first, or whatever. You don’t intuit that crap.
Unfortunately, EricaP, men get off a lot easier than we do. So I imagine the “success” rate of a penis-penis encounter would be higher than a penis-vagina encounter. As a veteran of NSA world, I’d say 1 in 10 is good. I posit that you have to hold out in NSA land. As in, I’m not going to fuck you on the first date – that’s for determining if I like you and can tolerate your company for this purpose. If I do, then you get a second meeting, but you still need to hang out a minute first. You’ve gotta be a person to him or he’s not going to care about your pleasure. And if it’s not good, stop and leave. He doesn’t get to get off if he doesn’t make a damned good effort to get you off. FWB land is kinder to women than NSA land. In NSA land, you’re pretty much looked at as a free hooker. And we all know men treat them soooo well.
@279 – “a free hooker” – ding ding ding! That’s what it feels like.
My new gameplan (and thanks for helping me think about this, Slogsters), is to develop a social circle of sex positive people, whether poly or BDSM, so that there will be accountability, and they know they’ll be seeing me again. Oh, and so we can become friends first.
Hopefully I’ll be able to send more cheerful reports from the field!
@ 279 – I was still in a rhetorical mood; it’s obvious that you, personally, know a thing or two about men.
@EricaP
I have been in open relationship for 25 years. I was in my 30’s, and like a kid in a candy shop, during the first 4+ years. I had some strong connections with a few men and women, who I spent time with sporadically.( I was traveling a lot in those years.) I also had sex with strangers. I could have skipped 75% of those encounters with men.
The sweet man I lived with wanted children. I didn’t and we always knew we weren’t going to stay together forever.
Now I’m 21 years into another open relationship. When we got together,sexual safety issues were up in a way they had not been before. I decided condoms slip and condoms break and sex with strangers wasn’t worth the risk.
I still like being able to follow through on a strong attraction. If there isn’t a really big pull, it’s almost always not enough fun to bother with. I still occasionally connect with someone I’ve just met, who I have potent chemistry with. I have been very fortunate that my choices have been good, and most of those partners became friends, who I care for and have ongoing relationships with – whether we’re being lovers or not.
I don’t connect as often as I used to,and when I do connect,it’s potent. Much better for me.
Would you and your partner be as excited if you made up stories about encounters? Sex you don’t enjoy seems like a bad idea. Wonder how it was with the one woman. I know, from experience, it’s hard to hook up with women if you’re in a primary relationship with a man, and if you liked it, you might want to put more attention toward hooking up with women. Also wonder if you and your partner want the sex to be good with others, or if part of the excitement is that other men disappoint you and he makes you happy.
Be careful woman! NO means NO. Most women I know, call penetration without permission rape.
best
@EricaP
Just read #280. hurray for you and your new plan!
I am astounded that it took 278 comments to get to swinging (granted, I skimmed after the first hundred or so). I know a lot of couples that have revived their sex life this way, and you would be shocked to find that who you assumed would never indulge, become the most enthusiastic (as in your wife, TYTF). Best of all, there is NO deceit involved! #278 is spot-on.
The other GOP hopefuls just got santorumed:
http://www.awkwardsnail.com/2011/02/gops…
mylita @282, yeah, good points, all.
I thought this was a pretty bland week for SL, but the comments more than made up for it.
EricaP: yeah, those guys you’ve been with are losers. NSA doesn’t need to be “No Standards Apply” – finding other sex positive people is definitely the way to go (although it may not be easy, depending on where you are). Guys who want anal with a woman they just met are not very sex positive, they’re just greedy assholes. Sex for its own sake, with no obligations, is a gift. Save it for people who deserve it.
jenesasquatch: I’m glad you clarified. It’s true, sometimes a degree of sexual dissatisfaction isn’t enough cause to end an otherwise good relationship – we can’t have everything we want. But if it’s strong enough, it’s a perfectly good reason. Dan’s right, sexual compatibility needs to be very high on the list of requirements for a happy, lasting relationship. Too many people overlook it or regard it as selfish or crass.
And yeah, maybe you were oversimplifying or being glib, but AFAIC a partner who isn’t interested in your sexual satisfaction is a partner who isn’t interested in you.
Ricardo: You rock. That is all.
Nope! Your wife will not surprise you and pleasantly give you permission to screw around on her, TYTF. You wife will scream, cry & then divorce you. You will then find, in a yr or so that you hurt your kids and gave up your entire marriage because you had a mid-life crisis. Mr. Savage is right on two points- 1. The Barista & co. have no interest in screwing you. 2. You DO need to talk to your wife. But instead of asking her to sit home with the kids while you ATTEMPT to indulge your fantasies with pretty young girls…tell her you feel that you’re in a rut & it’s effecting your marriage & see if you can’t start some couples counseling.
Nope! You’re wife will not surprise you, TYTF. She will yell, cry and most likely divorce you. And then you will find in a yr or two that you have hurt your kids and given up your entire marriage because you experienced a mid-life crisis.
Mr. Savage is right on two points however: 1. The Barista & co does not want to screw you. 2. You do need to talk to your wife of 10 yrs. But instead of asking her to sit home with the kiddie while you’re out trying to make it with young (creeped-out) girls, tell her you feel that you’re in a rut & it’s starting to affect your marriage. Then see if you guys can’t enter into some marriage counseling.
To the LW with the “straight” friend- have you ever considered that he IS into guys but denying it may be his convoluted way of saying that he’s just not into YOU?
Sorry for the double post- don’t know what’s going on with the computer this am….
@280. It sounds like you put yourself in some potentially dangerous situations (I agree with the rape definition @282) so the great sex you already have with your husband can be even hotter. Is it really worth it? This doesn’t sound joyful (as you have described it) to me. I am worried for you.
@290 Don’t sweat it. Version 2.0 was better. I often wish I could edit my comments after posting.
About the NSA sex with strangers: I have had my fair share; hey, I had to audition for my lover before I found him, lol! and to answer EricaP’s question about men being good in bed and NSA vs FWB:
I think overall, most men *try*. The difference for *me* in NSA vs. FWB is that as I get older, the emotional aspect of sex gets more and more important. When I was younger, I had many more body issues (thanks in part to douchebags like Hunter! 😀 ), so there was something actually liberating about NSA….I wanted to get off, he wanted to get off, let’s just…do whatever it takes to get each other off, and throw inhibitions to the wind. Thank you, don’t forget your coat on the way out. I do think these guys cared about getting me off, but more to feed their ego, rather then because they really wanted me to feel pleasure. Does that make them bad people? No, it was mutual use, and ok because we were all coming at it from the same, understood place. Some were more accomplished lovers then others for sure; I would say the skill rate being 50:50 decent to crappy? Some of the crappiest ones were downright inconsiderate, but I always got out of there as soon as possible after discovering this.
These days, NSA has little appeal to me. Give me FWB…probably because I have been really, and I mean *REALLY* introduced to chemistry for the first time with my FWB. We do have an emotional connection, and we know each others likes and dislikes. If something happened and we could no longer be together, I would want to find another situation like this, a long term FWD, someone I do get to know and have *chemistry* with. Do I feel that his talents are any more truly advanced then any other guy? Probably not…I mean, he is definitely on the truly talented end of the spectrum, but us together is dynamite. This is because he knows what I like, and he genuinely loves to bring me pleasure, not only to feed his ego, but he really cares about me and likes to make me feel good. Much different then when I was fucking just to get off when I was younger before I met him, or even when we first started out even. We have evolved, and its gotten a lot more intense and I like it. Would beuing in a “real” relationship rob of us this chemistry? I dunno….never had the opportunity to find out.
And to Hunter. Fuck you. A fat girl doesn’t have the right to be respected in bed by her partner? If you aren’t attracted to someone, don’t take them to bed. Fuck you to suggests it ok to take a big girl to bed and mistreat her because she’s not a size 6. I am 6′ and wear size 12 jeans, and run 5K and do yoga, and can do some *amazing*, tantric like things with my body. I try to weed sizest assholes like you out; being not attracted to bigger girls is ok by me, plenty of men think I am hot….lying to a woman, telling her you find her sexy, taking her to bed, and then treating her like a second class citizen, unworthy of your respect….well, you are the fucking loser because you can’t score someone you are really attracted to now, aren’t you?
@291, thanks for your concern; I don’t think I’m in danger of meeting a psychopath, or at least, he’d be easy for my husband to track down. I stay anonymous until the first meeting, but insist that the guys tell me their name & where they work, and I check that out online, and they know I have given my husband the details. At any rate, I think I understand the risks. But see 280 for the new plan to try to get to know guys as friends first before having sex.
EricaP- I’ll weigh in on how common it is to find really selfish men in NSA/FWB. 1 good or decent lover in a dozen is about right, I think. Unfortunately, I’m 100% single, so I don’t have a good lover to get my ya yas out in between. It’s really fucking depressing.
My Grandparents died a few years ago, after 70 years of marriage.
Oddly, I don’t recall a single whiny ‘it’s so BORING’ from my Grandpa. I don’t recall a single moan about housework and child-rearing from Grandma. They had these feelings, undoubtedly. What they did differently from most of the liberal weirdos and perverts here is this- they stuck it out. They kept the oaths they made to each other and they damn well stuck it out. Watching them age in the measureless comfort of 7 decades of intimacy was one of the most inspiring things I’ve ever witnessed. If in 50 years by loving and honoring my wife I have given this same wonderful example to my grandchildren I’ll consider myself a very lucky man indeed.
Granted, this is something an emotional child like Savage and his ilk can never understand. It isn’t instant gratification, after all, but a long term comittment to the well being of your opposite sex spouse. People like Savage are like my dog. They can’t remember for more than a few seconds the connection of their actions to any given outcome.
Here’s the secret, Savage. Happiness is not the goal. It is a by-product. Meet your obligations cheerfully to your family and friends (or fake the cheer when you must), give your boss or customers an honest days work at something for which you have real talent, find healthy and moral ways to express your personality in whatever amuses you, and you’ll be happy. Otherwise you’re just some schmuck forever chasing the pot of gold at rainbows’ end.
Monogamy works. For adults. It just doesn’t work for perpetual adolescents who refuse to accept that marriage really does mean ‘for better or for worse.’ The kind of man who cheats on his wife is the kind of man who cheats in business or anywhere else. It’s a mark of character. Without it, a man is a hollow shell of no value.
@296 Ethical non-monogamy *can be* a “healthy and moral way to express your personality”. It can also be a key part of being able to make a long-term committment to the well-being of your spouse (opposite sex or otherwise).
You’re the one that needs to grow up. Only children and “perpetual adolescents” assume that their answers are the right answers for everyone.
Odd. My vows said ‘forsaking all others.’ Difficult to be ethical and moral and break your promises at the same time. Betraying my wife sexually can NEVER be a key part of anything but the dimunition of our marriage.
Marriage is, always has been and always will be the union of a man and a woman. What Savage has with his boyfriend may be based on love, however perverted. It may be lasting. It may be a lot of things. What it is not and never will be is a marriage.
‘My answers’ are the product of thousands of years of social evidence across time and culture. They are the consensus reached by such different cultures as the Saudis, the Chinese, and those right here in America. Can you say the same about notions like polyandry?
@298 My vows didn’t say forsaking all others. “Love, honor, and cherish, in sickness and in health, for better and for worse, so long as we both shall live.” 15 years later, so far, so good.
@299, exactly. I love how this troll just assumes he know everything about everyone’s wedding vows.
@298, sounds like YOU are shit out of luck, then, when it comes to ethical nonmonogamy. But which part of your vows compel you to harass others for enjoying things you can’t?
Also, polyamory is the word you’re looking for. Polyandry means multiple husbands, which is not the case for the original LW.
But you’re right, it works well enough for the majority of people, the majority of the time (shit, just don’t look too hard at all the cheating going on in those “thousands of years of social evidence”, or at America’s current divorce rate). So you’re essentially arguing that whatever works for the majority should be forced on any minority for which it doesn’t. Care to entertain a few thoughts about where that philosophy might lead you? I would do it myself, but I tire of feeding the trolls.
Regarding “Safety Valve” from “Too Young to Fail,” I agree with you totally that TYTF could find himself right back in a state of sexual boredom all over again. At the same time I think that acting out sexually could be an outcome of a transformational state that is necessary and unavoidable for TYTF.
My own first marriage broke up over sexual boredom and falling in love with a sexually compelling new girlfriend. In the long run, actually, it was about me changing careers. Two years after the breakup, I transitioned from an discouraging and unpromising academic career in the arts to a professional software developer.
How were the two connected? Sex in early adulthood is very much about growth, transformation, getting-from-here-to-there. It’s about breaking away from our families and transcending the restrictions of our family backgrounds; even the Bible says this. It’s the ultimate upward mobility and eye-opener to new possibilities.
Whatever transformation TYTF needs, returning to that process of liberating sexual discovery feels like the ticket to get there. It may be a strange way to go about things, but who can really say we understand the mysteries of sex and libido?
Greg
Regarding “Safety Valve” from “Too Young to Fail” (2/17/2011), I agree with you totally that TYTF could find himself right back in a state of sexual boredom all over again. At the same time I think that acting out sexually could be an outcome of a transformational state that is necessary and unavoidable for TYTF.
My own first marriage broke up over sexual boredom and falling in love with a sexually compelling new girlfriend. In the long run, actually, it was about me changing careers. Two years after the breakup, I transitioned from an discouraging and unpromising academic career in the arts to a professional software developer.
How were the two connected? Sex in early adulthood is very much about growth, transformation, getting-from-here-to-there. It’s about breaking away from our families and transcending the restrictions of our family backgrounds; even the Bible says this. It’s the ultimate upward mobility and eye-opener to new possibilities.
Whatever transformation TYTF needs, returning to that process of liberating sexual discovery feels like the ticket to get there. It may be a strange way to go about things, but who can really say we understand the mysteries of sex and libido?
Greg
EricaP: my NSA sexual experiences can be divided into two parts: part 1 from before I was married and part 2 that happened between my divorce and meeting my current bf.
The guys of part 1 seemed selfish and “bad in bed” to me. The guys of part 2 seemed mostly pretty good (sometimes even great). There are reasons for this:
1) I ask for what I want now; I didn’t when I was younger. Seems like most guys do want to please a woman, they just don’t know how and they’re so desperate to look all cool and experienced that they don’t want to ask for directions. Give directions and they will largely be followed.
2) When I was younger I was with typical, unenlightened guys who think of sex as a transaction – as something you have to con a woman into “giving up”. The guys I was seeing over the past few years, by contrast, were largely open-minded poly types who think of sex as a fun shared experience. This attitude makes the bedroom stuff way better. It also means the guy is more likely to be up for an ongoing arrangment: that first sex that the two of you shared was a fun activity they’d like to experience with you again, not a sullying thing that rendered you valueless.
Oh and btw the dudes from both sample groups ranged from 19-27 – so age is not a factor in my calculations.
Oh, and also, for the purposes of this discussion, I’m defining “good in bed” as “he did stuff to please me and didn’t just focus on himself”.
Any other definition would be unfair since I think most really mindblowing sex comes from happy anatomical coincidences rather than skill – in other words I’m not gonna label an attentive, sweet, intuitive boy as “bad in bed” just because his wrist gives out under stress or his tongue is shorter than I’d like. 😀
perversecowgirl @303/304 – Do you see a difference between guys with whom you shared a social circle (poly or otherwise), and guys you only met for sex? My current hypothesis is that guys try harder when they really know you and you have mutual friends — but my theory is not based on much evidence. I’m planning on testing it out this year, but I was wondering if it rang true to you.
EricaP: Do you see a difference between guys with whom you shared a social circle (poly or otherwise), and guys you only met for sex?
I have no good answer for this – I actually met all my partners of the past 5 years (including my bf) over the internet, so although many of them were poly I wasn’t part of their “community” per se.
However, my online personal ads have always said either that I was looking for a FWB (emphasis on friend) or that I had no specific agenda and wanted to just meet people and see where it went. If you’re specifically putting yourself out there as looking for anonymous/casual sex, I would imagine that would tend to attract some pretty gross people…or rather, it’d attract all kinds of different people but you’ve had back luck with the particular ones you’ve met, whereas my approach tends to filter the gross guys out.
But I don’t know how you’re presenting yourself, so this is all just speculation.
*bad luck. Not back. Sigh.
“Try to resist the urge to lesbian this thing into the ground by communicating it to death.”
This is brilliant! Can I put it on a t-shirt? Just one, for personal use?
for AHA, There is always the chance that your straight friend is a bottom and feels you are also a bottom, and therefor incompatible.
who knows.
Go meet some openly gay men.
for AHA, There is always the chance that your straight friend is a bottom and feels you are also a bottom, and therefor incompatible.
who knows.
Go meet some openly gay men.