My wife and I click on just about every level—parenting, money, religion, politics, etc.—except for sex. After our last child was born, my advances were increasingly rejected. In an attempt to avoid pressuring her, I stopped initiating. One week passed, nothing. A month passed, nothing. A YEAR passed, nothing. Depression and anger set in. But I was committed to being the “perfect husband,” so I did not pressure her, hoping her libido would return. It didn’t. After two years, I finally lost it and confronted her. I expected that an open dialogue would improve the situation, but a month passed and she never brought it back up.
I realize that I’m lucky to be happy and fulfilled in just about every area of my life, but I’ve become fidgety, short-tempered, and hypersensitive. I do not want to have an affair and I do not want a divorce. I love her and our children, but I’m at a loss as to what to do. Knowing there are women out there in the world who actually enjoy sex is devastating (it kills me to listen to you field a call from a sexually confident woman on your podcast). I am mourning the loss of intimacy and connection with another person.
Please Advise Troubled Husband
I’ll get to you in a minute, PATH, but first…
MTV, a cable television channel that has been broadcasting music videos in a continuous loop since the summer of 1981, has elected to speed the moral collapse of the United States by putting me on television. My upcoming sex-advice program is tentatively titled Savage U, and it represents MTV’s first foray into non-music-video programming. (My preferred title for the show—Dan Savage’s Alaska—was rejected by the program’s co–executive producer, Piper Palin.) This news has upset not only my son, who has been in the MTV stage of his development for roughly three years, but also Maggie Gallagher, the head of the National Organization for Marriage, who has been stuck in the raving-bigot stage of her development for nearly three decades.
“Renowned sex columnist Dan Savage, who is an openly gay man,” Gallagher wrote on her blog, “will be taking his popular sex and relationship advice column to MTV in a show appropriately called ‘Savage U’ where he intends to educate your college student about the importance of honesty over just about anything else, including fidelity.”
Gallagher, who once had a child out of wedlock, speaks for the fidelity-over-anything-else crowd (fidelity over honesty, reality, statistics, biology, ability, etc.). Now, some people are capable of abstaining before marriage and being faithful to one partner for life—some people, but not Maggie—but these people represent a tiny minority of sexually active adults. And while those who make this aberrant lifestyle choice should not be discriminated against, the rest of us—the majority of sexually active adults—should be free to engage in grown-up conversations about sex and desire and the more reality-friendly ways in which we define fidelity without being shouted down by the monogamously correct.
I’d like to address Gallagher’s two main objections to Savage U in some detail:
“Savage, for all his experience, does not know what women are like,” says Gallagher.
I may not know what women taste like—I’ve never gone down on one—but I do know what women are like. My mother was a woman, my sister is a woman, my favorite bartender is a woman, my first sex partners were women, and many of my friends, neighbors, and coworkers are women. And as someone who is attracted to men and is in a long-term relationship with a man, I know what straight women have to put up with.
Ironically, Gallagher is a practicing Catholic who cites her faith as a reason for her opposition to same-sex marriage. But not knowing what women taste like has never stopped the pope from offering his unsolicited advice to women—no birth control, no abortions, no oral, no anal, no handjobs—and it seems a little hypocritical of Gallagher to suggest that I’m not qualified to offer advice to women, since I don’t fuck ’em, without first telling that old fag in Rome to STFU already.
“The possibility of taming one’s sexual desire for the sake of another, or of a vow, is not in the Savage moral imagination,” says Gallagher. “Libido will have out, and honesty about that is the best policy.”
The possibility of taming one’s sexual desire for the sake of another most definitely exists within the Savage moral imagination. I frequently discuss the “price of admission,” that is, the personal sacrifices, large and small, that make long-term relationships possible. For some, the price of admission—what it costs to ride a particular ride—includes “taming one’s sexual desire for the sake of another.” If anal sex is something you enjoy, but you’re in love with someone who doesn’t do anal, going without anal is the price of admission. If you’re not into monogamy, but you’re in love with someone who insists on it, then monogamy is the price of admission.
Yes, libido will have out—but “libido will have out” doesn’t translate into “Dan ‘Doesn’t Fuck Women’ Savage says anything and everything goes.” Two people in a long-term, committed relationship should be open and honest with each other about their sexual interests, turn-ons, drives, etc., because, yes, libido will have out. Meaning sexual compatibility and sexual satisfaction have a huge impact on the health of our relationships and marriages, Maggie, particularly if your spouse is your sole source of sexual satisfaction and release. People who can be open and honest with their partners—whether the relationship is monogamous or not—are likelier to have their needs met and likelier to meet their partners’ needs. And when needs are met, people are less likely to cheat and more likely to stay married.
Openness and honesty don’t automatically translate into everyone gets everything everyone wants. Not all needs can be met. But sometimes just having the sacrifices we’ve made for the good of our marriages acknowledged—getting a receipt after paying the price of admission—is good enough. Getting some credit for going without anal, along with the green light to jerk off to anal porn now and then, can make going without anal easier. Indeed, it can make going without anal virtuous, something that speaks well of the going-without-anal partner’s character and priorities.
But there are times when monogamy—its pressures, its discontents, its unquestioned acceptance—can destroy an otherwise decent marriage.
Take PATH’s marriage. If his wife doesn’t come around—if her libido doesn’t kick back into gear after mental or medical intervention—this couple is surely headed for divorce. PATH is not only feeling depressed and resentful, he’s also contemplating an affair (even if he’s in the dismiss-that-idea stage). Sooner or later, he’s going to cheat or walk. But this marriage, a marriage that works on every other level (“parenting, money, religion, politics, etc.”), could be saved if Mr. and Mrs. PATH were encouraged to openly and honestly discuss their sexual needs and their sexual disconnect. If Mrs. PATH is done with sex—for now, perhaps forever—Mr. and Mrs. PATH should be encouraged to come to a reasonable, mutually agreeable accommodation, one that allows for Mr. PATH to get his needs met elsewhere if that’s what he needs to stay sane and stay married.
I’m not sure what to call someone who places a higher value on preserving monogamy within a particular marriage over preserving that marriage itself, Maggie, but I wouldn’t call that person a defender of marriage.
I think I’ll let Ayelet Waldman take this one. Her take on post-birth non-coitus certainly explains a lot:
“But the real reason for this lack of sex, or at least the most profound, is that the wife’s passion has been refocused. Instead of concentrating her ardor on her husband, she concentrates it on her babies. Where once her husband was the center of her passionate universe, there is now a new sun in whose orbit she revolves. Libido, as she once knew it, is gone, and in its place is all-consuming maternal desire. There is absolute unanimity on this topic, and instant reassurance.
“Except, that is, from me.
“I am the only woman in Mommy and Me who seems to be, well, getting any. This could fill me with smug well-being. I could sit in the room and gloat over my wonderful marriage. I could think about how our sex life – always vital, even torrid – is more exciting and imaginative now than it was when we first met. I could check my watch to see if I have time to stop at Good Vibrations to see if they have any exciting new toys. I could even gaze pityingly at the other mothers in the group, wishing that they too could experience a love as deep as my own.”
More than anything, men suffer from the almost-universally held notion that , after kids, they are/should be regarded as “less than” and should be happy that way.
Women can also be on the other side of this unfortunate equation-for example, when a new father views them as less-viable sex partners after birth- but this is regarded by most to be an unacceptable position, whereas the mom’s new indifference to the husband is perfectly acceptable, given the constraints of children. And how long this indifference lasts is literally anyone’s guess…but that shouldn’t be a problem, right?
I’m in the same boat as PATH… since the night our kid was conceived 4.5 years ago, we’ve had sex four times, all within a 3-month span that ended just over a year ago. After reading most of the comments, I’m not sure whether to feel solace that there are others in my situation, or appalled that so many women would do this to their husband.
I understand the exhaustion of being a (first-time) parent, and it doesn’t help my wife that she is a stay-at-home mom. But I work full time and help with chores/child care whenever I’m at home, and as a reward get to choose between my right and left hands for sexual release. I thought we had solved our sex drought last year, but since then I’ve gotten my head ripped off for daring to state the obvious. Meanwhile, my resentment grows day after day and never gets released.
Divorce isn’t a realistic option, and neither is cheating (all else being equal, I’d rather just fuck my wife), but this is unsustainable. If it wasn’t for the fact that we’ll see relatives and other in-laws this weekend (whom we never see except for holidays), I’d schedule a marriage counselor appointment today.
@366 Read sylvia browning’s letter in the Shit Storm thread… In order to stand up for yourself, you may need to be able to envision those other options (divorcing, or going outside the marriage for sex)…
Oh, and speaking of that thread: Hunter78, since you seem so enamored of mixing discussions between threads (which has got to be more annoying to readers than any of my posts)… You wrote, over there, “But you have to give us a break.” Actually — no. No, I don’t have to give you a break. That’s not how the internet works.
If I were to take advice from anyone, troll, it wouldn’t be you.
Here’s how helpful your own recent posts have been. Of your last 10 posts, 6 have been complaining that other people aren’t posting what you think they should post. We’re not here to fucking entertain you, you twit. Besides the ones ragging on me, here are the others:
today: Getting back to last week’s column (probably a lot more germane than a lot of msgs here)…
Apr 19: Professor, What the fuck is the matter with you? I thought I could always count on you to be totally hard-boiled, and now you’re getting soft on us.
What a desultory Savage Love week. One single letter– another replay on the desirous husband routine. Then the regular (writing) women (and their femomen allies) pitch in, hook up and we have tons of mutually supportive msgs. Subject of the week long gone.
Apr 12 Ok, now that the universe of not caring for oral women has be heard from, can we move on?
Mar 29 The thread is dead.
@362
There are a lot of things left unmentioned in my original comment. I’m not denying the fact that I may be treating him unfairly. It could be a result of the feelings of resentment that I have towards him. Maybe it’s because I work 9-11 hours a night to support his unemployable self and I expect him to help out so I can get some rest and quality time with my daughter. And it’s not because I have a problem being the bread-winner and him being a stay at home dad but that involves actually doing things (like feeding OUR child and cleaning up OUR messes) instead of always handing the child over to my mother and then I have to get lectured about how I’m a horrible mother because I work too much (and being angry at my mother for trying to take over raising my child). It’s not like I can just stop working and spend all day playing with the kiddies. As it is, I have nearly zero time to myself. So, yeah, I have issues. Maybe it’s my fault our marriage went to hell. I’ve considered marriage counseling but I’m more concerned with my own mental health right now before I decide whether this marriage is even worth trying to save. There’s a lot more to this story but I won’t bore you with all the details. But maybe in time we’ll get to know each other better.
I also wanted to add…
Thank you EricaP for the welcome.
@363 jenesasquatch
in regards to lack of communication, I find myself trying and failing quite often to talk to him. He always seems to be just about to leave the room every time I want to have a serious discussion. Or if not, he’ll find a way to make light of everything (which is frustrating when it’s something that is important to me and, I expect, to our relationship). If lack of communication is the problem, it is not because I am unwilling to communicate. And often when I am angry and he tries to play it off by being all huggy-kissy with me, I may say “don’t touch me” but it’s usually followed by “i’m upset because …” and/or he already knows why I’m upset and that is why he’s acting that way. I feel like I’m married to a child so you can imagine why it would be difficult for me to have sexual feelings towards him (it wasn’t always this way; we used to have amazing sex and he was actually the best I ever had at one point… which may be why I married him?). Anyway, I think i rambled enough. Sorry if I’m being defensive.
@365 Hunter78
You’re right. I can’t see how she could let two years go by without saying anything either. Of course, we don’t know what she’s feeling/thinking/doing about it. But if she’s also doing nothing, she has to be equally frustrated. She can’t possibly be happy in that situation. Maybe she thinks he’s not interested because he doesn’t bring it up. But that still doesn’t excuse her from not trying to communicate with him. I’d say the blame is equally on both their shoulders in this case.
mommyducky @371: Thanks for the clarification. All of that additional info certainly sounds like reasons for the breakdown both in intimacy and in communication. It’s a substantially different story when you include all of that.
However, I still see a crying need for couples therapy there. Maybe backed up by a credible threat of divorce if things don’t get better. But I can’t imagine opening the relationship solving any of the things that you mention. You aren’t going to feel any less resentful about his parenting or his household help if he doesn’t improve it, and finding someone else to fuck is merely going to take your affection out of the home relationship entirely, while making him, if anything even more alienated. Given the situation, opening the relationship might as well be divorce in all particulars except mailing address and the signatures on the court decree.
I think therapy is a good idea. Both for myself and for the marriage. I went to a psychiatrist recently who told me I shouldn’t go to therapy and tried to put me on all kinds of new meds. So I’m going to see a new psychiatrist next month and hopefully start therapy for myself first. Then couples therapy will follow. I know that I have a lot of mental issues and everyone tells me I’d be better off getting divorced but in my head, I know I’m no catch with all my baggage and just the fact that someone would want to be with me and put up with all my abuse and rejection is enough. I guess I don’t want to be alone and I haven’t reached a stage yet where I expect to ever be happy (whether it be in a relationship or life in general). So yeah, lots of therapy in my future.
I <3 you Dan.
Thanks for everything.
Wow, Mr. Path, I am YOU, except I am the wife of a man who couldn’t care less about sex. Just like you, everything else is great. Wouldn’t it be great if you and I could just get together for sex only, both totally understanding where the other is coming from? I’ve never cheated, but your letter made me think this would be a win-win situation. Is there a website for that? Anyway, I hear ya. It’s very frustrating.
Wow, Mr. Path, I am YOU, except I am the wife of a man who couldn’t care less about sex. Just like you, everything else is great. Wouldn’t it be great if you and I could just get together for sex only, both totally understanding where the other is coming from? I’ve never cheated, but your letter made me think this would be a win-win situation. Is there a website for that? Anyway, I hear ya. It’s very frustrating.
So, there is such a thing as sex therapy, and not all therapists are tiny Jewish grandmas like dr Ruth, if that’s what’s keeping people away. There are even Centers for Sexual Health around. After a few months of zero libido post-childbirth, my husband & I were helped immensely by working with the johns Hopkins center for sexual health. They had really great advice, and helped me with both physical & mental barriers that were hindering our sex lives. Sex has changed throughout our relationship, but I think that is what has kept it sexually healthy. Big life changes can mean big sex life changes. Working frankly with guidance from pros can start a couple back on the road to a fulfilling sex life.
Great column, Dan. The absolute-fidelity-or-divorce mentality that reigns supreme in America is folly, as far as I’m concerned. I am not the type to need great quantities or varieties of sex, but I acknowledge that people differ widely in their sexual needs. An intact family with “accommodations” is far, far superior, in my book, to a dual-household family torn apart by a sexual mismatch.
p.s. My kids (age 14 and 13) have read and much enjoyed your books. I hope this doesn’t put Child Services on my case.
Great column, Dan. The absolute-fidelity-or-divorce mentality that reigns supreme in America is folly, as far as I’m concerned. I am not the type to need great quantities or varieties of sex, but I acknowledge that people differ widely in their sexual needs. An intact family with “accommodations” is far, far superior, in my book, to a dual-household family torn apart by a sexual mismatch.
p.s. My kids (age 14 and 13) have read and much enjoyed your books. I hope this doesn’t put Child Services on my case.
Dan, you missed an excellent opportunity for a teaching moment.
I strongly suspect that PATH’s wife had her reasons for no longer finding him attractive. They had a new child: was he helping with the housework and childcare, or leaving it all to her? Too often new mothers are exhausted and overwhelmed and have no leftover energy for sex, but instead of trying to make life easier for her and free up that energy for her, their husbands just bitch about not getting laid, which is also NOT attractive and just leads to resentment.
Hey everyone, PATH here. Sorry for the delay, but I’m a Savage-newbie and didn’t realize you could respond to Dan’s articles. I know, I know…a rookie move. Forgive me.
Before anything, I should thank everyone who’s participated in the discussion. Really, I’m overwhelmed and appreciative of those who contributed to the thread. It was incredibly therapeutic to read through the comments and advice, regardless of whether they sympathetic to my wife or I. I probably don’t need to say it, but everyone’s opinions here were/are completely valid. All I can say is thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts. It meant a lot to me and I hope that helps other readers as well.
With that said, let me clarify a few things:
1. Our youngest child is now 7 years old, so the responses centered on child-rearing stress (although absolutely valid and understood) don’t necessarily apply in this case. I can remember those years vividly and get where you’re coming from. Giving birth, going without sleep, dealing with colic, spit up, quickly changing needs & moods, etc. is tough enough, but to add an unsupportive partner would be crushing. But I’m not that guy. My wife would not describe me that way. I’m extremely close to my children and have been very involved in their upbringing from the beginning. From changing diapers to playing at the park to schoolwork, I’ve been very involved. My wife and I shared in both child care and daily chores through the years. Still, I recognize that she has done far more than me around the house mostly because she’s been a stay at home mom since our first was born. Also, I am not a workaholic. I know life is short and I’d like to absorb as much of my children’s lives while their young and still like having us around. The bottom line is that neither one of us is abusing the relationship. We’re both conscientious and hard working.
2. I always thought sex was great, consistent, etc. but have to confess that after reading Dan’s articles for a few weeks, my wife and I are still in the “vanilla” column. We have A LOT to learn, but feel like Savage Love is a good place to start. I’ve tried introducing variety into our sex life in the past, but my ideas were typically rejected (any ass play, outdoor sex, toys, etc.). My “M.O.” was to give her oral to the point of orgasm before any vaginal intercourse. Not only does it turn me the hell on, it ensures heavy lubrication, yet another turn on. We would explore each other’s bodies during sex and generally have a good time. Although I referenced some weight gain, it wasn’t all that much and it was temporary (eating and drinking helped me deal with the pain of the situation). I’m HWP now, having gotten back into the gym and jogging with regularity. BTW, for those of you out there like me, exercise is the best way to burn off “testosterone poisoning”.
3. When I stopped initiating sex over two years ago, I wanted to know TRUTHFULLY what my wife’s labido was. Her rejections increased slowly during the 3 years leading up to this “experiment”, when our youngest was already past the infant stage. We still had plenty of intimacy at that time (kissing, hand holding, hugging, cuddling, etc.), but I felt like I was becoming a predator when it came to the bedroom. I didn’t want to be the guy who pressures his wife for intercourse just to get his rocks off. That’s not me, it never has been. At the same time, I wanted to understand, honestly, to what extent our sexual interest differed. So I just removed any pressure/expectation for sex and waited. If she had shown any discomfort or anxiety, brought it up in conversation, ANYTHING at all, I would have responded positively. She never did. As the months passed by, I became confused and anxious. It took about a year for me to realize sex was, to put it simply, optional for her. I felt abandoned and angry and naive and it only got worse over time. I wrongly assumed that everyone needed emotional, physical (hugging, holding hands, etc.) and sexual intimacy. Turns out that although I did, my wife only needed (wanted?) the first two. That was hard for me to process.
4. Neither one of us has had a traumatic sexual experience, is gay or has had an affair. Also, we’re monogamous by choice. Just lucky to agree on that point I guess.
5. As an update since I sent Dan the email, my wife and I have started having an open dialogue. Her responses can be summarized as 1.) she didn’t realize that I needed sex so badly (a suprise that I’m still skeptical about), 2.) that I was moody, especially over the past year (very true) and didn’t want to confront me (another suprise as this was never a problem before), 3.) it’s “complicated” (very true, there are many other moving parts in our relationship and lives that contributed to this), 4.) she’s self-conscious about her weight (I’ve tried reassuring her that the biggest turn on for men is an actively interested partner, not appearance), and 5.) medications that are libido-killers (self-explanatory, but we were already aware of this). Also in the past month we’ve both entered marital counseling. I selected a seperate therapist only because my wife’s therapist is female and I wanted a man’s point of view on this topic, preferably one who’s gone through this before. It’s our intention to come together for counseling at some point as well. I’m both open and interested in this.
With that said, here are some things I’ve realized while reading (and re-reading) your comments:
1. I am a total asshole for not speaking up sooner. Two years is too long. I will apologize to my wife about this later today. Although my intentions were sincere (not wanting to pressure her, only wanting to know if she still desired sex, etc.), it was a bad idea to not talk about our intimacy issues sooner. This only lengthened the path to restoring our relationship (if that’s what we decide). On top of that, my “blowing up” was a bad idea as well, as was my countless, aggressive attempts to revisit this topic over and over again (sorry, I’m trying to have a softer approach, but it’s…really…hard…to…do…).
2. I underestimated the general stresses of life. Although moms need a lot of leeway after any child is born, I didn’t realize that sex is impacted for many years afterwards as well. With one/multiple little people running around the house, intent on interrupting your relationship at the most opportune moments, it’s difficult to be present sexually. You can’t just run upstairs for a romp in the middle of the day, evening, etc. anymore. In other words, our daily window of opportunity has diminished. This isn’t anyone’s fault, just a fact of life. We’ve taken romantic trips together in the past about once a year, but that’s not enough (well, for me at least). We should/will change that when the time’s right.
3. When I became angry in our relationship, I basically killed it at that point. I mean, who really wants to fuck an angry person, right?
4. Although I tried to paint myself as “the perfect husband” in my original email to Dan, I’m glad many of you called “bullshit”. You are all right in your own ways. With Dan’s format, he doesn’t always have the time or editorial length to capture a comprehensive and accurate picture. Truth is, I’ve been practicing blaming my wife for about 18 months, so will need to spend some time backing that out. My gut feel is that the majority of this problem is actually mine. In our recent conversations she claims that she wants sexual intimacy back in our lives. At this point, I sort of believe her. With what’s happened, my trusting that what she’s saying is true will not be an easy task.
Again, thanks to everyone who stepped into my little hell. Love should not be so complicated, yet we’re so creative at making it so, eh? I’m starting to hear my kids getting out of bed upstairs, so will have to end it quickly here, but I’ll be back to Dan’s column (and responses!) soon I’m sure.
Life’s short, be nice to each other.
PATH
Wow, PATH, thanks for writing!!
Could you explain this a little more?
>> she claims that she wants sexual intimacy back in our lives. At this point, I sort of believe her.>>
She claims that she wants more sexual intimacy – what do you think she is up for, at this point? being naked in bed? you going down on her? mutual masturbation? Does she mean some sexual interaction is okay, but not intercourse, yet? Or does she mean – “some day, when all the housework is done and the kids are asleep and we’re both well rested (ie, never), then we can fuck”?
Thanks for writing with the update and further info, PATH! I would think that since so much time has gone by, you’re both feeling kind of self-conscious about starting up sex again. I hope you can both find a way to get beyond that. If she’s game, sometimes reading erotica can help, I think sometimes women tend to respond to things they read better than things they see, like porn. Good luck!
@385
Thanks for the response, EricaP. We had a long weekend of talking between kid events, errands, etc. and she wants to first get back to where we were, then go from there. Sex was great in the past and I, too, want the connection we used to have. Above all else, I just need to know that it’s sincere. Is that too much to ask? On a side note, she must think I’m crazy because I keep citing Dan’s podcasts and articles. Although I’ve only recently started following SL, I’m pretty sure Dan is the most well-rounded sexual therapist on earth. Honest, direct, fair and…well, you can enter your favorite adjective here. Having a fanbase like his, with message boards to support it, is just icing on the cake. It feels healthy and right to be able to just TALK about sex. I actually plan to show her this thread when the time’s right. This site may be a lot to take in all at once. It should be a great conversation start, don’t you think? 😉
@386
Good point Canuck. I don’t even know where to begin. Can you provide recommendations?
@387 – I still don’t understand what she means. “She wants to first get back to where we were.”
Um, several days & nights have gone by — what happens if you hug her and then caress her breast. does she pull away? If she wants to start having sex again, and so do you, then wouldn’t it be reasonable to actually have some sex? Can you explain more why this is still at the level of talking, rather than physical interaction?
And not to step on Canuck’s toes, but here’s the list she gave me a year ago:
**************LIST FROM CANUCK*************
These are my favourite “field guides” to men’s feelings:
“The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands” by Dr. Laura Schlessinger
“Men, Love & Sex” by David Zinczenko
“What Men Won’t Tell You But Women Need to Know” by Bob Berkowitz
“How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It” by Patrica Love and Steven Stosny
“I’m Not In The Mood” by Judith Reichman
Well, Erica, I have become a bit of a smut *connoisseur*, and judging by the subject material, I’m not the only one who gets turned on by kilts and vampires:
Gena Showalter: The Nymph King (if she likes that, then The Darkest Kiss and The Darkest Pleasure)
Kresley Cole: Kiss of a Demon King (hottest!, but the whole series is good)
J.R. Ward: Dark Lover (there is a whole series after this one, good too)
Sherrilyn Kenyon: Fantasy Lover, Night Pleasures, etc. (huge series)
Larissa Ione: Pleasure Unbound, rest of the series is great!
Shannon K. Butcher: Burning Alive, Finding the Lost
Karen Marie Moning: Kiss of the Highlander, The Dark Highlander
(liked these the best, but they’re all worth reading)
Lora Leigh: Wildcard, etc.
Just so you know, there tends to be a rather sizable population of incredibly good-looking, 6’4″ men in these books who have paint-roller abs and rather deadly cunnilingus skills….so, not really bearing much resemblance to any universe I’ve experienced, but it does the trick!
EricaP, cool, thank you! I would have been starting from scratch with that list. Although “Dr. Laura” is an appalling homophobe, she does a good job in that book detailing the way men see and process continued rejection from their wives, mainly because the book works off of a bunch of letters men have sent to her over the years.
As far as the sexy books, I’d add Emma Holly to that list. I suppose it’s stretching the truth to call this “erotica,” as that suggests something a bit more erudite, but PATH, these books get the job done in terms of getting someone to think about sex again.
PATH, for me, reading through the SL archives was possibly the single biggest mind-changing, eye-opening experience I’ve ever had regarding the broad spectrum of relationships. For all the teasing we do here, Dan really deserves the Nobel prize of sex, or something. Your wife could read slog, or she could also read through his book, which covers the years before the archives, I think? And when you start trying to get things going again, keep it light. No one does well if they feel like they’re about to have sex for England…and my personal advice, gleaned from a talk show years ago on how to start having sex again after birth: “Inebriation and lubrication”, and of course, I’d add one of those smutty books to that mix.
Good luck!!!
*sorry, I meant “your wife could read through the SL archives”, not slog. (Mustn’t type and make PB&J sandwiches at the same time… 🙂
@388 (EricaP)
Good question (why are we still talking about it and not actually doing it?). To simplify, she hasn’t initiated intimacy. There is a bigger problem here than just having sex. I’m concerned about the fact that she says she’s interested in intimacy, but hasn’t actually initated any intimate discussion or touching for over two years. Before we do ANYTHING at this point, I’d like to understand why. Thus, all the talking.
On a side note, thank you (Canuck) for the book recommendations. I’m going to review the list with my wife, see what she thinks. I really like the idea of reading to each other in bed. 😉
Also, just out of curiosity, does the title “The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands” seem condescending to anyone else? Doesn’t it imply that men are either 1.) dogs or 2.) babies?
PATH: “does the title “The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands” seem condescending to anyone else? Doesn’t it imply that men are either 1.) dogs or 2.) babies?”
Yeah, very condescending. Dr. Laura really is an awful person in a lot of ways, but there are some very worthwhile messages in that book. There is a bit of that vibe that you get from some people, the “FFF” thing (that all men need is Food, Flattery, and Fucking), which my husband finds incredibly demeaning, too, fwiw. If you can read it knowing that she does paint a simple picture of men (who, in my experience, are as nuanced and freakishly hard to understand as women supposedly are), but take away the good parts–and there are plenty of those–then it’s an eye-opening read. I just think that rarely do we read things from a man’s point of view, it’s almost always, “if you’re not getting sex, it’s because you aren’t helping your wife out enough, or being considerate enough,” you don’t often read about how the continued rejection makes men feel. It’s worthwhile for a woman to read that, and be chastened when she thinks about her own behaviour. Well, for me it was, anyway.
Re: the initmacy/no sex yet: Your wife may be saying that (that she wants intimacy) because she thinks it’s what you want/need to hear–she may be aware that you could walk if things don’t improve–but mentally/physically, she isn’t feeling it. Some questions I’d ask her: regardless of you, PATH, how does she see herself? How would she define herself? Does she primarily see herself as a mother? Does she think she’s sexy? Is she aware of other men looking at her when she goes out? I really do think that in these cases, a woman has to rediscover her own sexuality, and rediscover that feeling of other people finding her sexy in order to get those feelings back. I would also suggest that the women on these threads who are mothers, and who also still love sex, and never had a drought, have always seen themselves as sexual beings, that they managed to avoid that “mommy trap” where we stop seeing ourselves as women who enjoy sex. It’s a bit of a head game (no pun intended), and I think while you’re talking, you need to find out where she falls in that spectrum. If you’re feeling dowdy, it’s hard to envision yourself as a sex goddess 😉
And if she’s in her old mom clothes all the time – encourage her to buy something new and in a different style. I highly recommend throwing money at the problem (new clothes, sitters, a night at a hotel). Whatever you spend, it’ll be a bargain if it rekindles the spark and saves your marriage.
Addressing your point about how you’re still waiting for her to initiate intimacy – doesn’t it seem as if both of you are standing on principle, and that principle is going to destroy your marriage? Have you read the old story, “Get Up and Bar the Door”? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Get_Up_and_…
Start having sex again, or at least massages, foot rubs, tongue-kisses, touching each other’s genitals, heavy petting… Once you remember that you want each other, then you can start working on the problem of how to encourage her to initiate more.
Hello, Ladies. It’s lovely to see you.
Hi Mr. J!
Well hello, Mr. J!! Glad I checked back in before heading off…have a good evening on Savage Love!
Thanks for hanging around, Canuck and EricaP, while the masses seem to have moved on to other topics. I find it both surprising and reassuring that the two last standing contributors are both female. On this topic I sort of expected all of the women to flee. I do appreciate your advice throughout. It’s been consistently positive, balanced and future-focused.
So I wanted to let you know that I’ve disclosed to my wife about my writing into SL, asking that she both read all of the comments above and post an uncensored response. She seemed interested (yah!), so come back in a few days for an update on her perspective. 🙂
Wow – great! If she wants more attention, she could write directly to Dan. He loves running follow-ups.
Conversely, if either of you wants someone to bounce ideas around with, I’m at EricaPSavage@gmail.com.
Oh, that’s great, PATH! I’ll definitely check back. Also, if you post and we don’t see it, make a comment on the Morning News on Slog, and we’ll run right over…!
Canuck, dumb question, but what do you mean “make a comment on the Morning News on Slog”? I get that SLOG is Savage Love’s Blog, but where do I navigate to post a comment? And how will that make it easier for you to find? Sorry, just starting to learn my way around on the site.
Thanks for sharing your email, EricaP. That’s awfully brave of you. Hopefully Gmail’s spam filtering is as strong as they say it is or your Inbox will be full within hours.
I know, I thought that the first time I posted it. I braced for the onslaught. But actually, only the people I wanted to write me have ever written me. Weird. It’s not my regular email address, of course.
On Slog (listed under Blogs in the menu at the top of the screen), the first post each day is the Morning News. Click on comments, under the post — that’s where non-staff people, regular people like you, me and Canuck, can post any important news we think might interest other Slog-readers.
I’ve always avoided jumping into the fray, and you’re already in good hands with EricaP and Canuck– they’re great folks and very insightful. But since it seems like it’s only us here now, I’ll weigh in a bit in case it’s any help.
I’ve been clawing my way out of a similar situation for the past two years. It hasn’t been easy and things aren’t yet fully back on track, so take anything I say with a grain of salt. But solid progress has been made, so I thought I might share a few things that did and did not work.
Just for background, my wife and I had been married for ten years before we starting trying to have kids. We wanted two, we had two, I got a vasectomy. My wife’s libido flatlined after the second child and never recovered.
Trying to initiate sexual touching or trying to discuss the situation would cause her to become intensely depressed. She flatly refused the suggestion of counseling (bad experiences with counselors in her past). So I stopped initiating sex, and stopped discussing the situation, in hopes that her libido would eventually recover on its own. A year and a half later, we still hadn’t had sex.
At that point I said “We need to work on this or it’s going to cost us our marriage, and we love each other too much to let that happen.”
We opened a bottle of wine and spent a long time trying to sort out all the related issues. At least in her case (some may apply to your situation, others may not), her issues were A) body issues– not feeling sexy made her uninterested in having sex, B) role issues– the ‘mom’ role had taken over to the exclusion of all else, C) physical changes– her body responded differently than before giving birth, things that used to feel good no longer did, her sexual interests and focus had changed, and D) opportunities for sexual intimacy seemed to be limited to after the kids went to bed (at which point we’re both exhausted).
So here are ten observations from the long road back:
1. People tend to discount general compliments from long-term partners. Saying “You’re sexy” has very little impact on body image / self-esteem. Very specific compliments (“you have tremendously sexy legs”, “you should wear this particular dress, you look stunning in it”, “when your eyes are smiling like that, you’re irresistible”, etc) often get past that filter and make a difference.
2. Take her shopping to pick out lots of sexy but comfortable underwear, so she can wear sexy underwear any time. The act of picking it out together is bonding and sets the tone, and later she’ll feel sexy while wearing it. Throw out all the grandma-underwear if possible.
3. Find ways to have dates and other uninterrupted together time. Try to spend a high percentage of that time NOT talking about the kids. Talk about each others interests.
4. On that note, facilitate each other having time for hobbies, friends, and outside interests. It’s too easy for your life to become all about the kids, and you’re both more interesting and alluring partners if you have your own identities and can talk about something you don’t both already know.
5. When you’re bottling up frustrations, even in the interests of helping your partner, that can eventually bleed through into coming across as sullen, brusque, irritable, etc. Resentment comes through and that’s *not* sexy. Odds aren’t bad that she feels like she’s being attacked as the bad guy for not doing something you weren’t asking her to do and for not feeling like initiating sex with a sullen, brusque, irritable person. So you both have to genuinely get past feeling like the other person is some kind of an opponent and find ways to feel like you’re on the same team. “We are working together to find ways to get more sexual intimacy back into our relationship.” If you’re not both genuinely bought in to fixing things and not looking to blame the other, it’s not going to work.
6. If you don’t have a lock on your bedroom door, get one. Train the kids that sometimes Mom and Dad need some time to be alone and rest and not be disturbed, short of an emergency. This can allow for the occasional quick daytime tryst. Also try waking up before the kids to fool around.
7. All the time, and especially early in the process, spend a lot of time touching in intimate ways explicitly *without* the expectation of things proceeding on to sex. I’d usually initiate this by saying “Let’s just cuddle– no sex” and then curling up together to watch a movie or read books. Lots of body contact. Maybe an arm around her back, wrapped around to cup and hold a breast while you read. It not universally true, but some women take much longer to get into a sexual mood than men do, so if she feels like any time you touch her intimately you’re angling for sex and she’s not yet in the mood, she’ll react negatively. If she gets a lot of intimate touch without the expectation for sex, she’ll likely see it as pleasurable and be in a sexier mood later. Plus, having intimate touch feel familiar and comfortable will make the transition to actually having sex after so long without it less jarring. Trust me, the first time will feel like you’re trying to have sex with a stranger. It’s creepy and off-putting.
8. Especially when you’re just beginning to resume having sex, the word “thank you” anywhere close to sex is somewhere between a bear-trap and a land-mine. “That felt wonderful”, “I had a great time last night”, “You really drove me wild this morning” are all fine. “Thank you” can be interpreted all kinds of wrong ways. Just avoid it. Trust me.
9. People’s physical responses and sexual tastes change over time, even moreso in the absence of a shared sexual routine. You both have to recognize that re-initiating things is going to involve a LOT of communication and discovery. Frustrating as it is, you have to treat it a bit like you’ve just started dating again. You need LOTS of communication, LOTS of attention to body language, and NO assumptions based on the past. You’ll also want to both keep a good sense of humor about it all. It’s not a bad bet that you’ll discover that some things you used to do before and loved don’t rock one or the other of your worlds anymore. If you’re brave and mutually agreeable to a ‘no-fault for respectful experimentation’ rule, it’s worth trying some things you used to dislike. Sometimes they turn out to be hot now.
10. Be clear from the start that while sex is pleasurable, what you’re missing is that deeper feeling of sexual connection with her. I think sometimes the lower-libido partner thinks “if my partner is craving sex and I’m not, they can just masturbate”. But that’s like saying “You have a box of granola bars in your cubicle, so why do you keep asking me to go on lunch dates with you?” Help her understand that not being desired by a sexual partner makes you feel like an undesirable, unattractive person. Let her know that being her lover is part of your identity and an important part of how you define yourself. And then just listen. A lot.
Hope this helps!
Henry Paris:
Thank you for that articulate comment. Wonderful advice! Please don’t be shy in the future.
Mr. and Mrs. PATH:
I’m cheering for you. I, like Henry Paris, have experienced similar troubles and am working with my wife to improve our marriage. Thank you in advance for anything you have to share, Mrs. PATH.
Henry Paris, those are wonderful insights. You mentioned things I hadn’t thougt of, but once I read it, thought, “yes, that’s true!” Glad to see there are enough survivors, however battle-scarred, of the mommy drought, that it can give others hope.
@403 – I sent your wonderful list (with your Slog name) to Dan’s email address, in hopes that he will publicize it further. Hope he does – that’s great advice.
As someone who is/has been in a similar situation as Henry Paris, PATH, etc. reading through these comments is alternately comforting and – to be quite honest – depressing.
In an attempt to rise above the latter, what I can say *helped* in my situation – but certainly hasn’t been a cure-all – is that notion of open communication. I don’t mean to beat up on PATH but I think he made a misstep in letting things fester for so long but hey, I probably tried the same thing too…just not for a year!
Every few months, my wife and I have what she calls “The Conversation” and it’s probably the absolutely most painful thing we have to discuss as a couple since it involves us really putting a lot of hurt and resentment on the table in regards to the state of our sex life.
My resentment: sexual intimacy isn’t a priority to her but it is to me and I feel like the other ways in which I address her needs is creating a lack of parity in the relationship where her needs > my needs even though I’ve made my needs quite plain (i.e. because we’ve had The Conversation many times before).
Her resentment: that she feels this constant burden of my expectations and that, as more time goes by between sex, the stakes/tension get higher and that makes her feel anxious and that anxiety easily converts into resentment.
And the thing is: I think both our positions are reasonable. I can understand why she’s resentful to have to be constantly worrying about, “has it been too long? Is he spooning me because he just wants to be close or is he trying to initiate?” On the other hand, I think I’m being reasonable in wanting to feel loved and desired by my wife more than once every few weeks.
I’ll wager this scenario sounds familiar to others here.
So anyway, we’re still working towards a solution. The Conversation actually helps in the short run. At the very least, after having it and leaving ourselves emotionally raw and exposed, it has the (semi perverse) effect of kickstarting her libido for that occasion. I chalk it up to some kind of sexual “fight or flee” response but I also think it’s because The Conversation is, by its very nature, incredible intense and intimate and even if it initially brings up all kinds of bad feelings, the intensity of the moment can translate into a desire for “good” feelings. And usually, for the next couple of months following the Conversation, we’re both more accommodating to one another: I try not to pressure, she tries to initiate (or at least, be receptive).
But inevitably (so far), we haven’t figured out how to maintain a permanent state of mutual grace on this and a few months down the line, things will spiral into a downturn that will result again in…The Conversation.
I don’t know if this will be a permanent state of affairs. I don’t know if this will end with the dissolution of our marriage (which I don’t want) or me finding affections elsewhere (which she doesn’t want). Things are not at that precipice yet, thankfully. But we both know that’s where things may be headed if we don’t actively work and talk to one another.
I should add: we’re in the process of finding a couple’s counselor since I think both of us are holding onto particular stances that can’t be resolved through just the Conversation. I’m not confident that a third person can help us fix this but at this point, it’s worth a shot. It helps that we’re both therapy-friendly however.
Anyways, to stop rambling, I would simply tell PATH that I think you’re doing the right thing in just talking about this openly with your wife, even if it brings up all kinds of bad feelings in the short run. Those conversations may not prove to be a cure-all but at the very least, it suggests that the two of you are trying to work in good faith with one another. That’s crucial to whatever path the two of you end up going along.
I would also suggest to try to get into a joint counseling session on the sooner end. For each of your to have your own therapist may be useful for your own personal issues but speaking from experience, it won’t do enough to help bridge the sexual divide for any number of reasons, least of all that what you’re telling your therapist is probably things you should be telling one another as it pertains to your sexual dysfunction.
As someone who is/has been in a similar situation as Henry Paris, PATH, etc. reading through these comments is alternately comforting and – to be quite honest – depressing.
In an attempt to rise above the latter, what I can say *helped* in my situation – but certainly hasn’t been a cure-all – is that notion of open communication. I don’t mean to beat up on PATH but I think he made a misstep in letting things fester for so long but hey, I probably tried the same thing too…just not for a year!
Every few months, my wife and I have what she calls “The Conversation” and it’s probably the absolutely most painful thing we have to discuss as a couple since it involves us really putting a lot of hurt and resentment on the table in regards to the state of our sex life.
My resentment: sexual intimacy isn’t a priority to her but it is to me and I feel like the other ways in which I address her needs is creating a lack of parity in the relationship where her needs > my needs even though I’ve made my needs quite plain (i.e. because we’ve had The Conversation many times before).
Her resentment: that she feels this constant burden of my expectations and that, as more time goes by between sex, the stakes/tension get higher and that makes her feel anxious and that anxiety easily converts into resentment.
And the thing is: I think both our positions are reasonable. I can understand why she’s resentful to have to be constantly worrying about, “has it been too long? Is he spooning me because he just wants to be close or is he trying to initiate?” On the other hand, I think I’m being reasonable in wanting to feel loved and desired by my wife more than once every few weeks.
I’ll wager this scenario sounds familiar to others here.
So anyway, we’re still working towards a solution. The Conversation actually helps in the short run. At the very least, after having it and leaving ourselves emotionally raw and exposed, it has the (semi perverse) effect of kickstarting her libido for that occasion. I chalk it up to some kind of sexual “fight or flee” response but I also think it’s because The Conversation is, by its very nature, incredible intense and intimate and even if it initially brings up all kinds of bad feelings, the intensity of the moment can translate into a desire for “good” feelings. And usually, for the next couple of months following the Conversation, we’re both more accommodating to one another: I try not to pressure, she tries to initiate (or at least, be receptive).
But inevitably (so far), we haven’t figured out how to maintain a permanent state of mutual grace on this and a few months down the line, things will spiral into a downturn that will result again in…The Conversation.
I don’t know if this will be a permanent state of affairs. I don’t know if this will end with the dissolution of our marriage (which I don’t want) or me finding affections elsewhere (which she doesn’t want). Things are not at that precipice yet, thankfully. But we both know that’s where things may be headed if we don’t actively work and talk to one another.
I should add: we’re in the process of finding a couple’s counselor since I think both of us are holding onto particular stances that can’t be resolved through just the Conversation. I’m not confident that a third person can help us fix this but at this point, it’s worth a shot. It helps that we’re both therapy-friendly however.
Anyways, to stop rambling, I would simply tell PATH that I think you’re doing the right thing in just talking about this openly with your wife, even if it brings up all kinds of bad feelings in the short run. Those conversations may not prove to be a cure-all but at the very least, it suggests that the two of you are trying to work in good faith with one another. That’s crucial to whatever path the two of you end up going along.
I would also suggest to try to get into a joint counseling session on the sooner end. For each of your to have your own therapist may be useful for your own personal issues but speaking from experience, it won’t do enough to help bridge the sexual divide for any number of reasons, least of all that what you’re telling your therapist is probably things you should be telling one another as it pertains to your sexual dysfunction.
@rustywarwick, yes, another mainstay of the mommy drought–the Conversation. Amazing how universal these issues truly are. It sounds like what you’re looking for is a way to maintain the momentum you get after the Conversation. I’d suggest your wife needs to find a way to feel sexual herself, not just because she’s afraid of losing you, or because she feels like it’s expected. It might be worth exploring what turns her on, regardless of you, because I think that’s important. Does she read erotica? Watch porn? Do things that remind her she’s a sexual person, like, as Henry Paris said, ditching the granny panties in favour of lace? Those little things may add up to her feeling sexy on a daily basis, which may be what’s missing. I think for most men, they want sex, and while they’d rather have it with their wives, they’ll have it elsewhere if necessary. Women who’ve lost their libido need to get back to that feeling of just wanting sex period, not because they feel like it’s part of a “deal.” Also, please make sure you find a couples counselor who is male-friendly, I’ve read about a number of people who’ve had bad experiences where the husband gets blamed for everything. Good (continued) luck!
@rustywarwick
I hate to add to your depression. My hopefulness varies from day to day. My wife and I have been through the same pattern of conversation coupled with temporary bump in frequency. But it never lasts because she just doesn’t want sex more than 10 times a year. So today I’m feeling pessimistic and I think divorce is inevitable because she will never accept non-monogamy. Sorry to be a downer. I hope you have better luck.
I’m the mother of three month old twins. While I wasn’t allowed to have sex for 6 weeks after the birth, I’ve had sex with my husband regularly since then. Mostly initiated (though eagerly received) by me! Why? Because there is nothing as sexy as a man who really partners you in baby care! He never hands over a baby because they are fussy or needs their diaper changed. He never fails to clean, nurture, organize when he gets the chance. He’ll rock a baby to sleep, then stand up and stretch and look so appealing that I just have to jump him! I think he should give classes on satisfying a wife-and helping her retain her sex drive post-children.
um…”I’ve tried reassuring her that the biggest turn on for men is an actively interested partner, not appearance” – well that would piss me way the hell off, especially if I were insecure about my appearance (who isn’t?). Hope you didn’t phrase it that way to her.
But yeah, I agree with whoever said you need to start things rolling. That whole thing where you waited two years to see what she would do? She was probably assuming you had lost interest in sex. Or specifically sex with her. Which is pretty ego damaging, as you know from feeling the same way for the same reason. It was also probably the most effective way of destroying what was left of her libido you could possibly have found. Don’t pull that stupid shit again. She’s given you the green light by saying she’s interested in more intimacy. That doesn’t mean sex right away necessarily but it means more than nothing. Keeping on waiting for her to initiate when she finds it difficult to believe you are genuinely attracted to her is a losing game for you both. I personally don’t really feel any sort of sex drive unless there is a man/men interested in me. Doesn’t even necessarily need to be a guy I’m interested in as long as he isn’t creepy (which probably explains my fondness for construction workers and way out of line night janitors). I need at least one guy out there who makes it crystal clear that he is blatantly interested (while not being threatening) to make me feel sexually female. Excessive pressure is a turn off, but genuine interest is quite the opposite. Please encourage her to write in. It’s hard to advise without her side of things. Good luck with everything for both your sakes and update us if you can!
@411 – you might just be lucky not to have gotten the hormonal slug of doom/post partum depression. Also, you might be young and/or pretty early on in this relationship. And have a damn fine man who has the time to help out. All things in your favor most aren’t lucky enough to get in quite that combination. The post pregnancy libido death is common to the point that it’s expected – unless you are in your early 20’s or something in which case you are likely immune.
@398 – of course it’s the women who stick with this thread – you don’t think we don’t have an innate horror of ending up in this situation ourselves? That we’re the ones with no libido in a sexless marriage for the rest of our lives? It’s so much more likely to be the woman, god help me if this ever happens to me… Well, it won’t if I can help it, and I’d open it I hope, but who wants to be in this situation on either side? No one! It’s torture all around.
@412-414 You should register. A lot of people have unregistered comments “off” for troll management, and will miss seeing your contribution.
@410 Can’t argue with the frustrations of the day-to-day hope variation. Ironically it’s almost easier to go through a day in which you know there’s *no* chance than those frustrating “it *could* be today” days that almost never work out.
Anyway, it seems to be far more common for it to take a few years of hard struggle with lots of variation to get back to what you had before than for it to switch back on rapidly. It took two years to get from “nothing at all” to “once a month trending toward twice a month” for us. Not claiming I’m happy with the latter, but ignoring the occasional variation things are still headed in the right direction and it’s worlds better than before. If we can claw our way back to ‘once-a-week-ish’ or better, it will do wonders for my sanity.
If you love your partner and things are headed toward right, it’s worth running the marathon instead of giving up after a sprint. But I’d be lying if I said it wasn’t one of the most difficult and grueling trips we’ve ever made together.