My life is not horrible. I’m an American college student. Compared to most people in the world, I’m pretty well-off. I go to college in Bellingham, Washington—the weed is awesome, the weather is great, and there are lots of hot guys. Score! But! I’m a homo. And I didn’t know how horrible my life was until I got here…
It seems like every gay/queer person who is involved in anything gay/queer on campus has this idea that gay people are SO oppressed that we need to constantly discuss it and feel like victims. Don’t get me wrong: We are a ways away from equality, and I recognize this. But it seems like the constant thread on college campuses for queers—other than talking about Lady Gaga or sucking dick—is complaining about how oppressed queer people are.
How do I respectfully say, “STFU, we’re doing just fine, you white, upper-class American kids” without sounding like an insensitive assdouche?
MG
You know, when I came out to my parents in 1981ishwhateversomething, telling my mom and dad that I was gay didn’t just mean telling them I liked to kissandotherstuff boys. It meant telling them I would never marry, never have children, and never be a marine. Or at least that’s what I thought I was telling them. But here we are, three short decades later, and I’m married. And I have a child. And now I can be a marine. (Not that I want to be a marine—well, not anymore. After seeing a pic of a shirtless Navy Seal in last week’s New York Times, I want to be a Navy Seal.)
And I live in Seattle, where the weed is awesome (I’m told), the weather is great (if you like to snowboard), and the boy I marriedandkissandotherstuff is a lotta hot guy all by himself.
I agree with you, MG. Things are good. Things have gotten better—and not just for me.
But we have work left to do. We have our full civil equality to secure, homo- and transphobic violence to confront, bigoted lawmakers to defeat (hey there, Rick!). But the discrimination and challenges we face shouldn’t prevent us from appreciating the good things. Yes, it has gotten better. That doesn’t mean we can ignore the bashings (tinyurl.com/42lqr55) and outrages (tinyurl.com/27ugxtz) and tragedies (tinyurl.com/3lk5h3l). But we shouldn’t be so in love with our victimization—or so insecure about our progress—that we can’t acknowledge the triumphs (tinyurl.com/3uzulpr) and joys (tinyurl.com/2g3pwry) and Navy Seals (tinyurl.com/68xol6p).
So I’m with you, MG—up to a point.
I disagree about the STFU part. You don’t have to hang out with the kind of LGBT activists who aren’t capable of fighting the good fight—fighting for their civil equality and mine and yours—while also appreciating all the good things about their lives. Not all LGBT activists are humorless scolds. Some are, for sure (and they tend to be overrepresented on college campuses), but there are plenty of people out there who can organize a protest one night and a good party the next.
Guys like you and me, MG, people who have it pretty good, have to remember that there are LGBT folks out there who have it lousy and not all of them are in a position to speak up for themselves. Let me see if I can think of an example… okay: There are bullied and isolated and abused LGBT kids out there who don’t live in places like Bellingham or Seattle, who don’t have the love and support of their parents, and who aren’t “doing fine.” If we don’t speak up for isolated and bullied LGBT kids, who will? (For the record: There are lots and lots and lots of loved and accepted LGBT kids out there, too—not all LGBT kids are miserable—who are doing fine and fighting for their own rights and the rights of other LGBT kids.)
We don’t have to mope. We don’t have to pretend that we feel oppressed 24/7. And we don’t have to attend pointless queer events that are run by LGBT whiners who mistake wallowing in self-pity for activism. You’ll find, once you get out of college, that most of us aren’t moping, pretending, or attending. Most of us are getting on with our lives and doing fine.
But, again, not all LGBT people are doing fine, MG, just as not all LGBT people are white or upper-class or in college or lucky enough to live in Bellingham. If you’re in a position to do something, MG, you should. You don’t have to do everything. Make your contribution. It doesn’t have to take over your life, and you don’t have to pretend to be any more oppressed than you actually are. But you should do something.
Remember: The only thing more annoying than a whiny, college-age queer with a persecution complex is a smug, college-age queer who takes his good fortune for granted and couldn’t give a shit about other people because, hey, he’s got his (his weed, his boys, his education).
I’m a 26-year-old lady who just broke up with a man I thought I wanted to marry. We had incredible, playful sex, were very kind to each other, are both a little queer, and share many interests in spite of our 20-year age difference.
Six months into our relationship, I moved to a bigger city four hours away, and we could see each other only every other weekend. Because of our careers, it wouldn’t be possible for us to live in the same place again for at least two or three years, maybe more. That was one reason I broke up with him. I also feared that he needed to be with a man—even though he loves me to sit on his face. He’s definitely bi, but he’s never been with a man. I am, too, but having had girlfriends makes me comfortable knowing that I mostly want to be with men. Part of me is excited to be free to explore my new city on my own and trusts I made a mature decision. Part of me thinks I really fucked up to let go of a kind, fun—if slightly flawed (but they all are)—relationship. What do you think?
Drowning My Sorrows In Glee
I think it’s a wonderful thing to be 26, bi, single, employed, and living in a big city. I think that a guy who’s single, bi, and amazing in bed at 46 is likely to be single, bi, and amazing in bed at 48. (No guarantees, of course.) You should enjoy the next couple of years, DMSIG, and then revisit the issue of Mr. Wonderful if and when you two or circumstances conspire to put you in the same place again.
I have to take you to task for your answer to Sent From My iPhone. In your answer, you compared condoms and withdrawal as methods of birth control. As a former Planned Parenthood volunteer educator, I will tell you that, like withdrawal, condoms alone are NEVER a recommended form of birth control. To compare these two “methods” is a little irresponsible. In fact, condoms alone weren’t even on our list of birth control methods. The good news is that condoms PLUS spermicide were on that list. When used together and properly, condoms and spermicide are almost as effective as the pill in preventing pregnancy.
Loud Mouth About Birth Control
Thanks for sharing, LMABC.
Find the Savage Lovecast (my weekly podcast) every Tuesday at thestranger.com/savage.
as always Dan, very decent column. can’t wait to see you on MTV!
Something’s telling me this week’s column won’t get 400+ comments.
DMSIG–
but what does HE think? does he want to marry you? did he make a fuss when you broke up with him? he may be still available when you get back in 3 years, but he might want to stay unmarried and on the playful, irresponsible side of relationship-hood.
@2, is that a challenge?
😉
DMSIG
Given his age, he isn’t going to wait around hoping you will realize you’ve made a mistake. Someone closer to your age might be willing to take a chance on you, but look at it from his perspective. Granted there are no guaranties in life, but you’ve bailed on him once. I don’t think that there is anything that you can say or do to convince him that you won’t do it again.
Does being gay mean you’re obligated to contribute to the cause of gay rights or to be interested in LGBT politics? I mean, I can see why that battle needs to be fought primarily by LGBT people, but isn’t it kind of everyone’s battle? And what about people like MG who just aren’t into it? I know gay people who feel ill-at-ease with the gay community because it’s just a group of people with whom they share nothing in common other than sexual orientation. I’m guessing MG is like this, and I don’t totally blame him.
Interestingly, MG also could do with being reminded that It Gets Better. I remember coming out in graduate school in 198[CENSORED], and meeting one dyke in particular, a couple years younger than I, who voiced it pretty well: she was tired of the other dykes because they were going on and on 24 hours a day about oppression. She just wanted to hang out and have a good time once in a while. She wasn’t alone. Turns out even the activists got tired of struggling and needed to just hang out and experience life.
Once you’re out of college, MG, it will get better. You’ll live a life that is too full of work, hobbies, worship, pets, friends, family, and hopefully a wonderful relationship for you to remember to whine 24 hours a day about oppression.
LMABC, as someone who volunteered for PP, you should know that spermicide is terrible for women. I’m really shocked you would recommend it. And Dan, I thought you would know better too!
I was recently told the same thing about condoms at the sexual and reproductive health clinic – that they just aren’t reliable enough. That is why, here in Calgary, they are putting IUDs in the teenagers assembly line style in mass clinics. I got one too now and it is fantastic. So far, I feel that it is healthier than the pill, spermicides, condoms as far as birth control goes…I would still use a condom with a casual partner. I wish I had got it at 16 instead of 40.
“Not all LGBT activists are humorless scolds. Some are, for sure (and they tend to be overrepresented on college campuses)”
Ooooh is that not true! Dan speaks the truth. Sure not all activists are humorless but most of them sure are. Whether it is the oppressed gays, the blacks, the hispanics, the women, or the environmentalist activists it seems the order of the day is bitch, bitch, bitch. They look under every rock for something that gets them offended and then spend their entire lives flailing and railing about every real or imagined slight.
These over privileged fucks live in the richest country in the world and spend their time whining constantly about how bad they have it. I think if we took the time we all collectively spend whining and moaning about how this group gets this and this group doesn’t get that and spent it on science(and I am talking about REAL science NOT Women’s or African American studies) we would have transporters and warp drive by now. Beam me up Scotty- there’s no intelligent life down here.
It does not JUST GET better, it IS better. Sure there is the bullying thing and the anti-gay violence which Dan has taken firmly by the balls but the fact is gays, on average, have a higher education level and a higher income than straights. I think this is because they do not usually get married. Marriage is definitely a one way street. If the man makes money, he is going to pay when they get divorced. If the woman makes money, SHE will pay almost nothing in the divorce. You know I am right! So if you are going to base your whole idea of oppression on the fact this society is slow about changing the definition of marriage that has been around for, oh about 10,000 years or so then you are being ridiculous. I wanted to marry our 14 year old babysitter and I feel I am oppressed because our awful society won’t let me. Dammit. She was really cute.
As for Drowning My Sorrows: He has never been with a man at age 46 but you just KNOW he is Bi? This makes absolutely no sense to me at all. Dan’s answer was perfect for her though. Oh to be 26 again…
@ 10 – Maybe I’m mistaken, but didn’t you previously say you were a sociology teacher? How close has sociology brought us to warp drive?
A horrific (and ignored-for-two-months-because-I-didn’t have-health-insurance) reaction to spermicide gave me PID. Whoops. I guess my two methods now are condoms and possible infertility.
This is not meant as an attack at anyone here. I’m just trying for understanding and closure.
I realize this off topic, but for personal reasons can anybody tell me whether its all cheaters are habitual liars or all habitual liars cheat? I realize its probably just semantics, but I could use some clarity in a very confusing situation.
Sorry for the distraction.
Ricardo, you’re so obviously a bitter old lonely dried up “gay” who has nothing to offer this conversation other than tired elderly tropes and ill thought “arguments”…like any other that you participate. Go away, old– you humorless dust ruffle.
I see that EricaP’s here giving her enlightened opinions free of charge and quite unsolicited…over and over again. I like the fact that she posts first and reflects later. It’s spontaneous, like a belch.
A lot of women are actually allergic to spermicide and it can increase the risk of STI as it irritates the vaginal tissue. As someone who worked at PP for years, I can tell you that we did teach condoms as a BC method and never recommended spermicide unless the woman was there for a diaphragm or cervical cap. We almost always recommended two methods if possible, but would never tell a woman not to use only a condom if that was all she could do.
Ricardo, you’re so obviously a bitter old lonely dried up “gay” who has nothing to offer this conversation other than tired elderly tropes and ill thought “arguments”…like any other that you participate. Go away, old– you humorless dust ruffle.
I see that EricaP’s here giving her enlightened opinions free of charge and quite unsolicited…over and over again. I like the fact that she posts first and reflects later. It’s spontaneous, like a belch.
oh…Professor is retarded, too. Lotta loud old fucks in the gay community with nothing to say at length (david mixner and many other professional homosexual oppresionalists comes to mind). Thing is they once were young fucks with nothing to say at length…I guess they had their youthful vigor and looks to distract from their relentless stupidity. That’s long gone for you, ricardo and professor. Now it’s just gumming your words and resenting the shade.
hhh
@15 my thoughts exactly, being a woman who’s unwittingly used condoms with spermicide and wondered why they were so uncomfortable. Then I read about nonoxynol-9 and it all made sense. Spermicide is wretched–might as well not have sex at all it makes it so uncomfortable. There’s your birth control method.
Dan, regarding your response to drowning my sorrows in glee you said “I think that a guy who’s single, bi, and amazing in bed at 46 is likely to be single, bi, and amazing in bed at 48”. Well, I am 42 and it has taken me this long to go from denial, to bi, to finally considering gay. I want what most people wnat – love, freindship, intimacy with a partner. Your comment was hurtful and for the first time ever reading your column I have felt that my journey was not up to your standards somehow. This was the last place I would have thought I would be excluded, but now it;s clear where you draw the line.
How do you say STFU without sounding insensitive? The answer has nothing to do with being white, upper class, privileged, or even gay. The answer is found in the annals of etiquette. It’s called changing the subject.
When someone starts to bitch, listen sympathetically, but don’t add your own whine. When they’ve gone on too long, ask about something in their complaint that doesn’t directly impact the complaint.
For example, when a classmate is complaining about the unfair and boring biology prof, ask how she got interested in biology or what professors at the school she recommends as good. When someone is complaining about an unfair policy having to do with gay rights on the political scene, ask about whom he’d vote for or wish was running. Ask about how he envisions the future or even about what it was like for him coming out in comparison to what it was like for the previous generation. When he answers, listen with sympathy again. Then give your own answers.
See how clever this is? You’ve stayed on topic, just let it veer in another direction– a direction that’s not all oppression and activism.
I have nothing to back this up with (except my memories of being a female, straight, college student who was sure she was oppressed one way or another), but I’d guess that most of your buddies are going on and on about oppression because they think that’s what you have in common. They’re seeking to make friends by sticking to things they think you’re interested in. Let’s guess that some number of them will be only too glad to discuss a hundred other topics of interest. Pursue friendships (and sexual relationships) with them. When you find someone who keeps getting back to oppression in a one-track way, become too busy to get together the way you would with any other bore.
@20 can you explain more how Dan’s column felt like it negated your existence?
@ Matt E, you took that way too personally, Dan was just saying that at that age the guy is likely to be single in a couple years. Dan’s comments almost certainly nothing to do with his orientation. As most of us get older it’s easier to spend more time alone, after all, 2 years single when we’re 20 is 20% of our life up to that point, 2 years single when we’re 46 is less than 5%. I think you taking offense to his totally reasonable advice is a bit weak frankly. (Not intending to hurt your feelings, quite the opposite, I’m trying to tell you to not have hurt feelings!)If you can’t see that now that I’ve pointed it out, or decide to take my post as an attack when it clearly is not, then oh well I suppose.
I think you’re taking that far too personally Matt E. At 46 someone is a lot more likely to remain single for 2 years (less than 5% of their life) than someone who is, say, 20 (10% of their life up till then). I don’t think Dan was trying to say anything more than that, you may have read too deep into his statement.
Sorry everyone for that weird double post, I’m new, had to sign up and I didn’t think my original version had been posted, very embarrassed!
I see someone else got the same thing I got out of post 20 though…
@20
I don’t understand how you got so quickly from “is likely to be” to “ought to be.”
Spermicide raises the risk for STI transmission. What if you want one thing to work as birth control AND STI prevention?
Condoms have worked fine for me, for birth control, for almost 20 years. They’ve also prevented me from getting STIs… and they have done the same for many other people. I would never recommend that a woman use a spermicide unless she is in a completely monogamous relationship (and how many women think their relationships are monogamous and find out otherwise via STI?) Don’t risk it.
@20 is trolling… see, for a long time Dan made statements that could be read as saying most bi guys were actually gay, and that bi was just a point on the way. A bunch of bi people got offended, and so now Dan is careful to say things like “a guy who’s bi now is likely to be bi two years later.”
So 20 is pretending to be a gay gay who went through bi as a point on the way, and pretending to be offended that Dan is now saying that NOT all bi guys are actually gay.
To #2…
I have nothing to add to the column and the first 27 comments that preceded me. But despite having such wonderful life thought I should still make an effort and post my meaningless comment, if only to make it slightly closer towards 400 mark.
Off topic to today’s column, but of interest to Savage Love readers in general– Did anyone catch Keira Knightly on The Daily Show the other night? Jon Stewart had her google on santorum.
Spermicide is nasty and, unless you’re at home and stocked up, you’re not likely to have it with you when you need it. The best option is condoms AND withdrawal. Few things prevent pregnancy better than fucking with a rubber and finishing on her tits.
Condoms alone are 97-98% effective when used perfectly. Instead of teaching women that condoms alone are an ineffective method of birth control, which is a lie, you should teach them how to improve the 86% “typical” failure rate, by inspecting each condom for tears before use and how to unroll it properly with the reservoir in the right place.
correction: 86% “failure” rate should have been 86% effectiveness/14% failure. Switched my terminology a bit without intending to.
Haha, OK here’s my good faith effort to help with the comment count.
Just a few issues to consider: women are taught not to even use soap to wash the outside of their genitals, but they’re supposed to squirt heavy duty chemical irritants inside their vaginae? Really? I don’t think so. It perplexes me that anyone recommends spermicide nowadays.
IUD would be a good option IF women using it were 100% certain they would not get an STI. (The little string that hangs from it is a brilliant way to transmit pathogens from the vagina to the uterus and further, thus making a case of STI several times worse, in terms of symptoms and long term consequences.) I don’t think your average teenage girl who’s has had a nearly foolproof birth control device fitted in her uterus belongs to that group. Actually I shudder to think what happens when she goes to college.
How about condoms + BC pill? Throw in withdrawal too if you’re able to pull it off (or rather, out) in a timely manner. But I suppose it won’t happen every time so stick with the big two.
Best method of birth control: use the other holes.
@ 14&16 – I would ask, PP, that you refrain from using quotation marks when saying that I’m “gay”. It’s grammatically incorrect. Ones uses quotation marks either to quote, or to imply that the word is used slightly differently from the accepted meaning. That’s not the case. I’m definitely gay in the two most commonly accepted senses of the word.
As for the rest of your comments, I may ber “humorless” according to you, but you certainly got me laughing!
Regarding MG, I think one of the problems with the obsessed oppressed is simply that it turns off people who would otherwise support the issue. In other words, it’s not helping the “cause”, it’s harming it. The previous 400+ post discussion last week was likely one of those.
I’ve had the absolute privilege of living in some poor countries, and the entitled certainty of some highly educated people in western countries nauseates me in. Well-fed and SUVed complaining about some injustice or other. Some humility and compassion for each other is certainly in order, and I guess no-one wants to listen to the shrill.
@37 dameedna
Yeah, but half of those comments were just JA5 repeating himself.
@36 Couldn’t PugilistPuck, who totally isn’t Professor, be quoting somebody else when he calls you “gay”?
Maybe PugilistPuck was quoting Professor who is totally not the same person.
@39 – But what would be the point of that? Of course, that question could apply to anything PP says.
@12 – Keep your head up. Try not to lose hope and remember that just because you had PID does not necessarily mean that you CAN’T have kids, it may just be a lil tougher. I got PID at 15 and spent 4 days in the hospital because of it. I had a few miscarriages, but eventually I had a healthy baby girl. I didn’t even have to go to a fertility doc. Not promising it will be as easy/hard for you, or that dealing with miscarriages, etc. wasn’t hard, but remember, it’s not impossible. Best of luck to you!
@13 – I think all cheaters are habitual liars, but not all habitual liars are cheaters….. Generally, you probably have to do a lot of lying to get away with cheating. But, just cause some does a lot of lying, doesn’t necessarily mean that they are doing a lot of cheating, too.
Throw me into the camp of sensitive to spermicide. I am sure that the stuff was about 50% responsible for a string of UTIs I had while in college!
For most of the time I have been sexually active, it has been condoms and HBC – no pregnancy scares.
Dan makes his living as an activist columnist so he has an interest beyond altruism in stirring the pot! But aside from that he IS more fortunate than many (perhaps more accurately, most) gay people, because, through no skill of his own except picking his parents carefully, he’s better looking than average and has parlayed that into a stable relationship with another hottie.
That said though, there’s nothing gained by anyone saying STFU, regardless of circumstances. Whatever a person’s situation they’d do well to either make the best of what’s available, or (in the worst case scenario) run like hell away!
Where does one get condoms without spermicidal lube? Do such things even exist anymore?
Also, I think you missed the point on the first letter (MG) – he’s implying that “middle class” suburban white kids who’s parents pay for them to attend a university don’t have real problems, for the most part. Being gay is just something to work with in college – maybe you’ll have less friends, you won’t go to as many parties, etc – but you’re better off than being the child of immigrants living with 6 cousins and 5 aunts/uncles in a 2-room apartment on a combined $25,000 a year in a shitty, shitty neighborhood. Hearing members of the privledged class complain about the rights they don’t have always rings as hollow. If you want to talk about teen/gay runaways and drug abuse, about REAL gay-bashing (gay people can in fact be assaulted for reasons other than their being gay), about the types of issues you wouldn’t wish on anyone that particularly affect the gay community, fine. But a 20-year old complaining about not being allowed to adopt a child strikes me a spoiled. MG is right.
Yes, 45, they do. Have you been to a drugstore recently? Any size, any color, any flavor, any brand — all available without. It’s all I use, since I can’t use hormonal BC while nursing my child (some can, but I cannot), and spermicide always ALWAYS gives me a UTI. Many women, like me, are allergic to it.
And for years, until I found a HBC method that I was also not allergic to, I solely used condoms without spermicide, and I am STI and unwanted baby-free.
Learn how to use condoms correctly and they work just fine.
@13/42 – If given convenient circumstances, someone can cheat without telling overt lies. I had thought my husband was a bad liar, but it turned out that he was pretty good at keeping a secret from me.
confused fool@13 – we can give you more advice on your liar/cheater (and extend this thread) if you give us more information to work with…
MG – educate your friends about the kyriarchy.
@45, fetish– If you’re looking for non-lubricated condoms without spermicide, you can buy them at any ordinary drug store that sells condoms. I just checked my bedside drawer and see that Trojan and Durex both make the non-lubricated sort. If you’re looking for condoms that are lubricated but not with a spermicide, I haven’t checked, but I believe they exist. Or just get a tube of lubricant separate.
I’m grateful for those writing to say that they find the spermicides irritating. I was young when I learned that the spermicide on condoms and designed to be used with diaphragms was a severe allergen for me. It was embarrassing at the time and an annoyance. Now I just read labels carefully. All the same, there’s comfort in knowing that it’s a widespread problem, not just me.
#20 sounds like he IS 20 and in college. To get butt- hurt at Dan’s reply was absurd.