Three months ago, I met a woman who I’m really into physically, emotionally, and mentally. She’s someone I could see myself with. Problem is, when we started having sex, she insisted on a condom for birth control. I haven’t worn one in probably eight or nine years. (I’m 33 now.) I would be hard, then put on the condom and start having sex, and go limp because of the feel. This happened many times over the first couple months, leading to frustration on both our parts. She went on the pill a couple weeks ago to deal with the issue, but now I’ve got a mental issue going on and still go limp once we start having sex. As soon as I get inside her, it’s all I think about and things turn to shit. I feel like it’s not a physical problem, as it hasn’t happened before, so I’m not sure that drugs would even work. I don’t know what to do. It’s at the point of ruining this relationship.
Futile Limp-Ass Cock Is Dreadful
Before I get to your question, FLACID, I wanna pull rank—it’s my column, people—and briefly mention the staggeringly amazing thing that happened two weekends ago while I was in New York: the 8:00 p.m. performance of The Book of Mormon at the Eugene O’Neill Theater on the Saturday of Pride weekend. I didn’t think it was possible, but Trey Parker, Robert Lopez, and Matt Stone’s brilliant new musical about well-intentioned Mormons on a mission exceeds the hype. It’s the funniest, dirtiest, smartest thing that this showqueen has ever seen on Broadway.
Yeah, yeah, something else happened in New York while I was in town: A bill legalizing same-sex marriage was approved by the state legislature, and signed by Governor Andrew Cuomo, the night before we saw The Book of Mormon. And, hey, being in New York for the marriage-equality victory was nice. It was great. But The Book of Mormon—holy shit!
Okay, FLACID, if your dick goes limp once you put it inside her, stop putting it inside her. Just for now. Have oral sex, masturbate together, have lots of imaginative, nonpenetrative sex, all the while paying careful attention to her vulva, clit, orgasms, etc. A few dozen successful, low-stress sexual encounters with your girlfriend should help break the association your dick has made with her and failure. Good luck.
Yay, we won gay marriage in New York. I’m so happy, I could cry. But not tears of joy. Here’s the deal: I support gay marriage. I’m a freakin’ lesbian. I’ve been with my partner for 10 years. We live together. We’re the proud parents of the two cutest dogs ever. We suffer through each other’s families, and we’re treated as a married couple for all intents and purposes by everyone in our lives. I’ve made passionate speeches to friends and family members about the importance of gay marriage. So in 30 days, we can get married in New York. Everyone will expect us to get married. But I don’t want to. I’m happy in my relationship, I have no plans to leave, but I don’t want to be married. I think part of the strength of our relationship comes from being together because we want to in the moment, not because we promised to in a moment that has long passed. How do I tell my partner and everyone else that I love her with all my heart but don’t want to marry her? Or anyone else, ever?
Defense Of Marriagephobic Asshole
Same-sex marriage is legal in New York, DOMA, not compulsory. But instead of telling your partner that you don’t want to marry her, or anyone else, ever, tell her you need time. This freedom is new, hard-won, and not going anywhere. There’s no rush to commit to committing, DOMA, and no rush to commit to never committing. And you might want to ask your girlfriend how she feels. If she hasn’t been dropping hints, picking out china, or proposing, it’s possible that she feels just as conflicted or ambivalent about marriage as you do.
I’ve just ended a four-year relationship with a great man who didn’t lay his kink cards on the table until way too late. He’s your typical straight guy with a she-male fetish. Apparently, the dom pegging I provided wasn’t enough, because I found a secret e-mail account where he was soliciting she-male escorts. I’m genuinely more pissed that he didn’t tell me he wanted to explore this—real cock—and didn’t give me the opportunity to make his fantasy fit into our life together. I can’t tell if any of these escorts ever met with him, and in usual hetero-male fashion, he is mortified that I know about his darkest cock-fetish secret at all. So my question is this: As a GGG girlfriend who would honor just about any fantasy, is this secret search for a stranger the betrayal I think it is? I get it that our play isn’t the same as the real thing, but isn’t cheating cheating?
Willing But Not Enough
The snooping-is-wrong absolutists will shit themselves if “snooping is wrong” doesn’t appear somewhere in this response. So here it is, gang, right at the top. Heck, I’ll toss it out again—”snooping is wrong”—even though I disagree. No long-term relationship is snoop-free, just as no long-term relationship is lie-free, porn-free, or thinking-about-fucking-someone-else-while-I’m-fucking-you free. And when a little snooping uncovers something like this, well, it’s retroactively self-justifying.
On to your question, WBNE: Your ex’s secret search is the betrayal that you think it is. No question. Cheating is cheating, and the kind of cheating your ex was engaged in or contemplating amounts to a Very Serious Betrayal. He put you at risk of acquiring a sexually transmitted infection*, assuming he saw a sex worker, or he was thinking about putting you at risk, assuming he was about to. And it was all so unnecessary: He had a GGG girlfriend who he could’ve opened up to about his secret kink. He could’ve negotiated a deal that allowed him to explore this without betraying you or putting you at risk. But he didn’t ask for permission because he was deeply ashamed, first, and terrified of losing you, second. And now he’s really got something to be ashamed of—the lying and sneaking around—and he’s lost you. Unless…
Unless you can find it in your heart to forgive him.
His kink cards are faceup on the table now; you know his deepest, darkest sexual fantasies, and, more importantly, he knows you know. Yes, he betrayed you, but forgiveness is meaningless if it’s limited to trifles and never comes after a Very Serious Betrayal. If his kink is something you would’ve signed off on had he gone about things differently, perhaps you could take him back on the condition that he go about things—finding things, sucking things, getting fucked by things**—very, very differently from now on.
*I’m not saying that a man who visits a sex worker is automatically going to get a sexually transmitted infection; a good sex worker is typically more thoughtful about sexual safety than your average freebie slut. But outside sexual contact is outside sexual contact. Whomever it involves, it involves risk for the insider back at home, and it should be disclosed and discussed in advance.
**I’m not calling MTF sex workers “things.” I’m calling their things things.
Find the Savage Lovecast (my weekly podcast) every Tuesday at thestranger.com/savage.
@101 Shit happens and you either learn to deal with it in order to survive or you don’t.
Sorry about your situation. People can become so enamored of a new relationship that they are oblivious to the consequences and forget that they still have responsibilities. Mea culpa. Hopefully it will stop being so distressing once the new relationship energy dissipates. In any event, good luck.
This:
It just seems wrong somehow when many of the most ardent and vocal advocates of social change refuse to participate once society caves to their pressure.
is a false paraphrasing of the LW. You don’t know that she is/was the “most ardent and vocal” advocate – she does say she supports the right – much as I would defend the right of Baptists to have their wives-submit marriages, even though I want nothing to do with it.
I personally believe a lot of tax-dodging cultists operate as “churches” based on abusive “theology” and are a pernicious influence on our society, involving a way of thinking and seeing the world that is damaging to the individual and the larger society. Moreover, they are constantly pursing a lifestyle agenda – seeking to force the practice and acceptance of lifestyle on the rest of us – often through legislation, and when that fails, through the courts. Worst of all, they seek to proselytize our children – often trying to push their values into our public schools, using our tax dollars to support their agenda. You know, the fundamentalist evangelicals…
Still, I’d fight for the freedom of religion, even though I’m an Atheist and would never ever practice religion myself.
@101 Reread my first line. Just because you are attracted to someone and have the opportunity to pursue them doesn’t mean you have to. I prefer to avoid the drama and choose to interact with like minded individuals as much as possible. It doesn’t matter to me how hot the potential sex might be, no guaranty there either. Exquisite short term physical pleasure would not even begin to compensate me for everything else that I could lose. My wife almost died of breast cancer (the doctors did not expect her survive). Waiting for her to come out of surgery just after Mother’s day is probably the worst experience of my life. The thought of life without her is still unbearable. How do you replace someone you’ve been in love with for more than 30 years? You don’t and even thought of trying to is inconceivable. For me there really is only the “ONE”.
Wow! Dan thinks The Book of Mormon show was more “staggeringly amazing” than NY legalizing same-sex marriage?? I can’t wait to see it! But I don’t think I can get to NY so I have to wait until it comes to Seattle. Hey, any Ex-Mos reading this, check out my Ex-Mormons in Seattle Meetup group!
http://www.meetup.com/Seattle-Area-Ex-Mo…
@94: I’ve had dogs. And I’ve had cats. Fish, frogs, chickens, rabbits, more dogs, more cats, a salamander, a canary, scorpions…
And yes, I have kids. There’s a difference.
If you don’t see a difference, I hope to hell you don’t have kids.
@92: I think 86 was saying that choosing to actively engage in high-intensity bonding behavior (e.g. sex, romance) with people other than your primary partner creates a greater risk that you will replace the primary bond with a bond to the new person. Compare that to maintaining emotional/physical boundaries that are more reserved with other people, and directing your romantic energies towards your partner.
It is true that even in supposedly monogamous relationships, people often seek that energy outside the relationship, so I agree that there is a risk in any case, even the monogamous one. I can even see that in the polyamorous case, there is at least a conscious effort to maintain the primary bond, whereas in cheating withing monogamy, the illicit nature of the affair both makes the experience more intense, and the damage to the primary relationship is usually greater when the affair comes to light.
But the choice that 86 seems to be making — choosing a closed relationship, and choosing not to cheat within it — is attempting to avoid that risk.
@109 – the two of you just went through an incredibly traumatic experience. I’m glad the surgery went well.
@94
I’m with 111 here.
I’m also pretty sure if I were a parent I’d be huuugely offended if someone tried to compare their dog (let alone their goldfish) to my human baby.
I can tell you from experience that anyone who loves their pet as much as their children is a shitty parent.
Mydriasis: I can tell you from experience that anyone who loves their pet as much as their children is a shitty parent.
I see it the other way around: anyone who doesn’t love and care for their pet like a child is a shitty pet-owner.
Avast_2006: no, I don’t have kids. But I resent the idea that my lifetime commitment to my cat is somehow doesn’t count for anything just because he…what? Doesn’t talk? Never actually grows out of the clean-my-poop stage?
What is the magical, mystical difference between children and pets that supposedly disqualifies me from using the word “parent”?
I’ve known a lot people who raised their kids pretty indifferently – parked them in front of the tv all day, seemed annoyed whenever they wanted something, made no attempt at feeding them healthy food, etc. Those people should have to renounce the word “parent”. Not me.
@94
I’m with 111
I love animals but if I was a parent I’d be really offended if someone compared their dog (let alone their goldfish) to my human baby.
I can tell you from experience that parents who love their dogs as much as their children are shitty parents.
Sorry if this comes up as a double post…
No one is saying that it doesn’t count for anything and obviously a good pet owner is better than a shitty parent any day, but I mean come on.
Having a pet requires work and love and people shouldn’t have pets unless they are going to give them loads of love and spend time with them and take care of them etc etc etc. But the word ‘parent’ refers to taking care of human children. If you want it to refer to pets, where’s the line? Does having seamonkies make me a “parent”?
And it’s sad when a pet dies, it’s very sad. But if you like I can ask my friend’s mother if she was as sad when her beloved dog Scout died as she was when her 15 year old son died having a seizure. Loving your child more than your dog doesn’t make you a shitty pet owner.
@perversecowgirl- I think the key difference between a child and a pet is that you are raising the child to become your equal one day, to be able to live on its own. With a pet, you have it because you like having it, and your relationship to it probably won’t change all that much over time. It will never become your equal, and it’ll always be your property, free for you to give away or put down when you feel like it. Maybe you don’t think this is right, but our legal system and society values a human life MUCH more than an animal’s life, and so saying that a pet is worth as much as a child or is as difficult to raise as a child can be seen as insulting.
Did I say “doesn’t count for anything?” Did I? What I said is, “There’s a difference.”
And yes, of course “doesn’t talk” is part of it. Children are enormously more complex than pets. Earth to cowgirl: Do you honestly believe that the intellectual and emotional and developmental life of your pet is remotely equivalent to that of a child, any child? I hope you have sense to stop embarrassing yourself before you say yes to that.
No, you don’t have kids, and so you are talking out your ass. If you ever do have kids, you will know the difference instinctively. Hopefully at that point you also will be duly embarrassed by today’s posting. I daresay your kids won’t be too thrilled at being put in the same category, relationship-wise, as the family dog.
@118
I fail to see why pet owners using the word “parent” is such a big fucking deal. Why be insulted by something so trivial?
Also, I don’t call myself a parent to my cats, but I for damn sure don’t see them as property. They belong to themselves, and my boyfriend and I have made a commitment to care for them for the rest of their lives. Same thing as children? Of course not, but it’s in the same family.
@108
“I’ve made passionate speeches to friends and family members about the importance of gay marriage.”
From that I surmised, perhaps incorrectly, that the LW was generally, openly, and publicly passionate on the subject.
My posts were intended as a general criticism of what I consider to be hypocritical social activism.
Where you as an atheist would fight for freedom of religion, I as a theist would fight to suppress any and all religions that abuse people. All organized religions, like politics, is inherently corrupt and corrupting if only because they are institutions of social control that tend to attract people who cynically use them for their own personal advantage.
@120
because words matter to us, they aren’t really completely trivial. Not to be needlessly inflammatory but when Republicans compared gay marriage to a person wanting to marry their pet* that was considered EXTREMELY offensive. The word marriage means something. The word ‘parent’ means something. Comparing a human relationship to an animal relationship is fair. EQUATING them is not.
*I’m going to take the bestiality implication RIGHT OUT of what I’m saying so no one gets sidetracked on bullshit. So let’s assume those fictional I-want-to-marry-my-dog people weren’t abusing their pets.
@92 and 112
The possibility of your primary bonding and forming a new primary relationship with someone else exists in all relationships. However, some types of relationships and/or behaviors increase or decrease the probability of that bonding. Free will means you have choices.
@Hunter78, you’re clearly being judgmental of EricaP, especially when you describe as “predicament” a situation that she herself is much more nuanced about. It doesn’t seem to me at all that this is a “predicament” for her. It might have been for you if you were in her situation, but this would be a different case.
I understand that you don’t like her style. It doesn’t follow that you have to use jabs against her. That is what makes you cruel — and I have to agree with EricaP, you are being cruel — since you chose to, as you put it, ‘raise your voice’, when you could make your points with more civility, without doing that.
@EricaP, it seems to you your husband’s girlfriend is not an existential threat, just yet another thing that gets your husband’s attention. (That’s a frequent problem, the attention one… I also wished my wife would spend with me some of the time she dedicates to her work projects.)
I hope that, all in all, you’re enjoying your lemonade — and even getting to have other juices as well. And that you keep your taste buds awake to make sure the limonade isn’t getting too sour. 🙂
@117: But the word ‘parent’ refers to taking care of human children. If you want it to refer to pets, where’s the line? Does having seamonkies make me a “parent”?
I think the line is the intelligence of the animal. A dog or cat is probably roughly equivalent to a baby when it comes to intelligence and brain-complexity: they have feelings and opinions, express how they feel with easily recognizable facial expressions and sounds, can understand some human speech, and become emotionally attached to their humans and to other animals.
@118: I think the key difference between a child and a pet is that you are raising the child to become your equal one day, to be able to live on its own. With a pet, you have it because you like having it, and your relationship to it probably won’t change all that much over time.
This is an interesting point…although if that’s where we’re drawing the line between “parent” and “non-parent”, people with developmentally challenged children might have something to say about that.
@123: Not to be needlessly inflammatory but when Republicans compared gay marriage to a person wanting to marry their pet that was considered EXTREMELY offensive.
Yeah…because animals aren’t equal to us and can’t consent to anything. Comparing marriage between two consenting adults to marriage between a human and an animal who has no idea what’s even going on is offensive. Comparing taking care of a child (who is small and helpless and needs guidance) to taking care of an animal (who is small and helpless and needs guidance) isn’t nearly the same thing.
Comparing a human relationship to an animal relationship is fair. EQUATING them is not.
I can’t speak for the letter writer who started this whole kerfuffle, but when I refer to myself as a “parent” or to my cat as my little furbaby, I do use a slightly facetious tone…because I am “comparing but not equating” the two things (kids live longer, grow up, move out…obviously it’s not exactly the same). What got me pissed off is people shrieking that nobody’s allowed to even use that word at all unless they have an actual child.
When I refer to myself as a “parent” it’s a form of shorthand; it lets others understand that I’m the sort of person who sees a cat or dog as an independent, thinking being and not as furniture. And I can’t shake the idea that people who scream “BUT RAISING KIDS IS TOTALLY DIFFERENT!” are probably in the “pets are furniture” camp. Yes, if you see a pet as a piece of property with no personality or inner life then it is a completely different thing from having a kid. But I don’t, so…
okay real quick
1. if you’re being (semi)facetious, that’s a whole other kettle of fish. I have no issue with that.
I’m no longer at odds with your use of the word ‘parent’ but… just for the record…
I would actually disagree with your assertion that cats and dogs are roughly equivilant to say, a human infant – and even if they were, the human baby would outstrip them within months. That how fast we grow. I don’t know how much you know about developmental psych/bio/neuroscience but babies are actually mentally capable of wayy more than is commonly realized. ALSO especially in the realm of emotional attachments – animals are in no way capable of the kind of depth and complexity of attachments that a parents and child are.
I want to be reeeeally clear about something else too. I don’t think pets are furniture. I think that pets do have personalities, I had two cats growing up and I loved them to peices. I dream about them sometimes and I miss them, too. I get actually very very angry when I see women carrying around toy-sized dogs in their purses because it disgusts me to see someone treating an atonomous living being with feelings as a fashion accessory. I do NOT think pets are furniture.
Then, I also don’t think it’s anywhere near close to raising a human being to be a happy, well-adjusted adult.
But yeah, making a tongue-in-cheek reference so that someone knows how much you care about your kitty – I have no problem with that.
I talked to my husband tonight, told him I was feeling upset about his girlfriend. It felt good to get my feelings across. He was receptive; we didn’t talk about concrete changes, but at least he knows more about what I’m feeling. I hate to be the bad guy, the one shutting down the fun – and I admit that my desire to be GGG does complicate things when it comes to understanding and expressing my unhappiness. Thanks, everyone, for helping me see that I needed to say something. At least 18 years haven’t gone by before I spoke up… (Wait, that’s the other thread.)
@ #3
as it should be
Thank you for the update, EricaP. It sounds like you are more than just a little relieved that the lines of communication are open now.
I’m reminded of another old saying: “Things work out best for those who make the best of the way things work out.”
— John Wooden
I’ve got everything double crossed for you and am hoping that things will get better soon.
My good friend had the same problem as FLACID. He got whiskey-dick for his first time the first time he tried to have sex with her. Just couldn’t get it up because he was too drunk and the next morning blamed it on the hangover. He was 22 and didn’t think it was a big deal. Then it happened again the next time he saw her.
And again.
He really liked this girl and he had never had this problem before. He talked to his doctor who told him to relax and that nothing was wrong but that didn’t help. I hooked him up with some of my dads rigidity aids and it was virtually an over night cure.
I’m not saying it would work for everyone, but it did for him. With him being really nervous about the whole thing, and her getting rather upset that he couldn’t produce, it was quite the situation to observe. He’s normally a very relaxed, calm, and confident person, but this really rattled him. The drugs seemed to make a huge difference, it broke down some sort of mental barrier he had constructed.
@ Hunter78,
I didn’t call you either a troll or a bully. What I did express was that your jabs were not adding anything to the discussion. Just the opposite I find them distracting. And, yes, I do think that jabs are a way of taunting someone, which in my opinion, is a means to bully someone. Hence the request for you to stop.
If you think yourself capable of loving Erica than why not treat her that way? Why not treat her with the compassion that you would have yourself treated with? Or how about with just basic courtesy? Isn’t there enough unkindness to be found in the world, without knowingly choosing to create more?
There is no need to worry about my confusing you with my childhood bully. My bullies rarely stopped with taunts, they were also fond of their fists and their followers.
Best wishes,
k
EricaP (@129): I’m glad you spoke to your husband. I think one of the traps of being sex positive and enlightened/GGG is that it doesn’t seem to allow room for other, equally valid human emotions without the fear of being labeled uptight, sex-negative, or unenlightened and old-fashioned.
You were upset and you’ve started the dialogue. I hope you two come to a happy resolution.
Wanting your husband’s attention and being jealous of the connection he’s establishing with a new girlfriend doesn’t make you any less of a kinkster, or sexual good adventurer. We’re all of us blazing our own trails.
re: DOMA
Many couples I know have taken to throwing themselves non-legal “commitment ceremonies”.
My husband and I are Canadians who moved to Seattle after he got a job at Microsoft. Shockingly, English literature grads have a more difficult time obtaining work visas than people with computer science degree (You mean MY knowledge of artsy things isn’t just as valuable??)
If my husband and I weren’t married for real, I wouldn’t be able to live here with him — at least not legally. I could try to stay here under the radar, but I’d have no health care and would be forced to cross over into Vancouver for birth control. (We knew some unmarried, Canadian ex-pats who actually lived like this for a while).
Just remember that unless you’re married, the government doesn’t recognize you as a real family.
Dan, you’ve done great things for gays. But otherwise, you’re a total fucking dick and a shit advice columnist. You obviously care more about being entertaining than in helping people, unless it’s in your interest (like a gay rights or sex-positive cause).
132– Thanks for you answer. I’m glad for real life anecdotal evidence of what worked over theory of what should work. Dan, if you’re out there, here’s a guy who says drugs worked better than non-penetrative sex play. Anyone else with the same problem? What helped?
@123
Um, the meaning of words matters to me too, but I maintain that thinking a person who casually refers to him/herself as a “parent” to their pet is somehow impugning the value of your child’s life is just plain silly. “Parent” is also one of those words that has more than one usage pattern, and given that pet owners act as protectors of their pets, the usage is not incorrect. Perversecowgirl is dead on when she says that no one is equating pets and children, just comparing them. This really is a trivial issue
Ms Erica – Good for you. As far as GGG concerns go, you might think of being open with your husband as part of the second G, that part of being Giving is not withholding your measured response when something is painful. I certainly sympathize about any pressure you might have felt not to be the party pooper.
@perversecowgirl
I’m a father with one child, a son. I have cats. One of my cats touches a need in me for a daughter I’ll never have. Yes, she’s “just” a cat, but there is no denying the transfer of feelings to her that genuinely meets an otherwise unfulfillable need in me. Animals are not furniture. Sometimes we form emotional bonds with them that are deeply significant to us.
Stating the obvious, there are only so many hours in a day and everyone has to prioritize the use of their finite resources. The more commitments and/or relationships you have the less time you have available for anyone of the them. You subtract work and sleep and divide what is left between them. Ultimately something/someone is going to get shorted and feelings hurt. Being GGG and sex positive doesn’t change the physical laws of the universe.
The basic scam of advertising and entertainment is that new is always better.
In product packaging new and improved isn’t and just means smaller portions for the same price.
@Chicago girl
First off, I don’t have a child.
Second off, like I said, if someone’s doing it somewhat jokingly then I’m okay with it – but if someone’s trying equate it like I said, it is mildly offfensive. But that’s me.
“I’m the parent of 7 lovely potted plants”
Life exists on a near-continuous spectrum of sentience ranging from the cold virus I appear to be parenting right now to human beings. I think the appropriate place to draw the line for the word ‘parent’ is at human beings but like I said, if someone wants to (humourously, which implies comparison) refer to themselves as a parent to their cat, they’re allowed to. (I will roll my eyes a little.) If someone wants to seriously call themselves that way (which to me implies equating), they’re still allowed to, it’s free speech. But on the same coin I’m allowed to tell them that they’re fucking crazy.
@141/2
hahaha… yeah I’m basically with you. But I’m in favour of people being openly poly so that I don’t have to date them.
And also because I think diversity makes the world go ’round. (I’m Canadian)
Ugh. If someone wants to call themselves a parent to their pets, then let them do so. Does it somehow make your role of being a parent any less important? And what about people who cannot or choose not to have children? Would it be wrong for them to consider their pets as their ‘babies’?
In all actuality, intelligence is subjective. Those who live in remote villages with little to no technology wouldn’t place great value on computer technicians, regardless of how great they are at their job. Likewise, a person with an extensive knowledge of hunting and local medicinal herbs wouldn’t be seen as the important corner stone his fellow villagers saw him as if he moved to New York. With that said, how many humans can adapt to change as readily as animals can? Animals have been able to predict massive storms and other disasters long before humans could do without the help of machinery. Isn’t that intelligence in itself? We only thing we’re so great because we’re able to fall back on the creations of those before us. How many of us can personally build a car or create a battery? How many of us can build a house or create an antidote to poison? If we stuck a random human buck-naked in the middle of the wilderness without a single tool and with no civilization in sight, just what are the odds that he would survive?
It was mentioned that humans and pets can’t be considered roughly equivalent because we’re of a higher intelligence and are able to form more complex bonds. It was also mentioned that “animals are in no way capable of the kind of depth and complexity of attachments that a parents and child are.”
And you are forgetting that not every person is the same. Children with Autism and Asbergers Syndrome have a much hard time forming bonds and understanding social cues. Those with Autism may also have harder time learning empathy than their peers. Many children with Autism also have learning disabilities of varying levels. Some children have such severe developmental delays, they will never be able to move out of their own and take care of themselves fully. According to your statement, the parents of some of these children wouldn’t be considered parents simply due to things they cannot help. (I really don’t agree with this statement, I’m just throwing it out there.)
You may feel like calling yourself a ‘parent’ to your pet is somehow degrading to people who have children, however, I feel that your remarks are very devaluing to those that consider themselves a damn good pet ‘owner’. I’ve never called myself a parent but I can’t help but feel like your comments portray all the time and effort I’ve expended and the love I have as somehow being of lesser value just because it’s going towards a furry ‘baby’ rather than a bald one.
I don’t know how well stated this all is since I haven’t slept yet, but hopefully it’s understandable enough.
Ugh. If someone wants to call themselves a parent to their pets, then let them do so. Does it somehow make your role of being a parent any less important? And what about people who cannot or choose not to have children? Would it be wrong for them to consider their pets as their ‘babies’?
In all actuality, intelligence is subjective. Those who live in remote villages with little to no technology wouldn’t place great value on computer technicians, regardless of how great they are at their job. Likewise, a person with an extensive knowledge of hunting and local medicinal herbs wouldn’t be seen as the important corner stone his fellow villagers saw him as if he moved to New York. With that said, how many humans can adapt to change as readily as animals can? Animals have been able to predict massive storms and other disasters long before humans could do without the help of machinery. Isn’t that intelligence in itself? We only thing we’re so great because we’re able to fall back on the creations of those before us. How many of us can personally build a car or create a battery? How many of us can build a house or create an antidote to poison? If we stuck a random human buck-naked in the middle of the wilderness without a single tool and with no civilization in sight, just what are the odds that he would survive?
It was mentioned that humans and pets can’t be considered roughly equivalent because we’re of a higher intelligence and are able to form more complex bonds. It was also mentioned that “animals are in no way capable of the kind of depth and complexity of attachments that a parents and child are.”
And you are forgetting that not every person is the same. Children with Autism and Asbergers Syndrome have a much hard time forming bonds and understanding social cues. Those with Autism may also have harder time learning empathy than their peers. Many children with Autism also have learning disabilities of varying levels. Some children have such severe developmental delays, they will never be able to move out of their own and take care of themselves fully. According to your statement, the parents of some of these children wouldn’t be considered parents simply due to things they cannot help. (I really don’t agree with this statement, I’m just throwing it out there.)
You may feel like calling yourself a ‘parent’ to your pet is somehow degrading to people who have children, however, I feel that your remarks are very devaluing to those that consider themselves a damn good pet ‘owner’. I’ve never called myself a parent but I can’t help but feel like your comments portray all the time and effort I’ve expended and the love I have as somehow being of lesser value just because it’s going towards a furry ‘baby’ rather than a bald one.
I don’t know how well stated this all is since I haven’t slept yet, but hopefully it’s understandable enough.
I realized that I shouldn’t have put ‘your’ because there were several people making rude remarks.
Put DOMA’s and Willing’s letters together and you have a great example of something everybody knows about relationships, but almost everybody denies about their own relationships: things change.
And when things change for the worse and a relationship ends, there are a combination of assets, debts, property, children that must be addressed, typically at the worst possible time emotionally. As a domestic relations attorney, all I can say is that marriage is a defined relationship with defined rights and defined structures to help divide things and deal with family. I’m not saying all divorces go smoothly, they often don’t. I’m also not saying unmarried couples can’t deal with these issues. What I am saying is that if things go bad, and agreements can’t be reached, then marriage/divorce at least provides a framework to address the conflict. (Partnership agreements or other property and custody agreements can provide the same structure, but they require more individual attention up-front, and must be updated as time passes, just like wills and other long-term agreements.
Okay, I’m going to speak up from a trans point of view here guys. I’m a transguy, female to male. I am a man, I have always been a man, it’s just that my body didn’t match my mind. Being called ‘tranny’ and ‘she-male’ (because yes, FTM’s get called this too) leaves me feeling absolutely horrible.
I am not half female, half male, I am not some inbetween because of what my genitals happen to look like. I am male, and I would like to be called as such. In the same respect, MTF women are real women. If they still have a penis, then they’re REAL women who happen to have a penis. Not half male half female.
And at 104: it’s great that your friend is able to call himself that, but that’s HIS choice to make, and his own personal label for himself. I would surmise this is such because your friend’s gender is more fluid than most trans people, he’s happy being somewhere inbetween, so he has no issues identifying as such. But just because you can call him she-male does NOT mean you can use the term for any other trans person.
The terms ‘tranny’, ‘trap’ and ‘she-male’ are very offensive, and I can tell you from experience that being called these things is very hurtful. It invalidates one’s identity, and reminds them of something that they would much rather forget. We don’t want to spend every day of our lives being reminded of all of the pain and bad experiences we’ve had to go through, we’d just like to get through the day without being reminded that we’re not a ‘real wo/man’ which is what these terms imply.
I’m sorry this post has been long, but I wanted to educate some of the people on here. Our genitals are our own concern, not yours. Please don’t call us names because of them.
@138: Must have misunderstood at 94, when perversecowgirl seemed to be implying that there was no functional difference.
I’ve got no problem with it as shorthand or facetiousness.
@146: I doubt the parents of Aspergers or autistics or Downs kids would appreciate you comparing them to your dog either. (I have an Aspergers kid, by the way. He’s fucking brilliant in the ways that he is brilliant, and he has problems where he has problems. But there is no possible comparison to your dog, or your parenting of your dog, that would not be highly offensive.)
I know exactly what it takes to take care of a dog, and I know exactly what it takes to take care of a child, having raised both. If I treated my dog like I treated my child, that would result in one neurotic relationship, and one neurotic dog. If I treated my child to the sort of acceptable standard of care required for a dog, Child Protective Services would be wanting a word with me.
I’m not devaluing anybody. I’m simply saying (all together now)…
There’s a difference.
I don’t sit my dog in my lap and read to him. I have not started a college fund for my dog. I don’t take my dog to Disneyland. Nor do I teach the dog table manners. Nor do I worry about whether the dog is making friends at park day. I don’t teach my child to “heel.” I don’t take my child out twice a day (on leash) for poopers. I don’t check my dog’s algebra homework. I haven’t gotten my child neutered to prevent unwanted puppies. I don’t counsel my dog on girlfriend troubles. I don’t make my child stay off the furniture. I don’t install NetNanny on the computer to keep the dog away from porn. How long would you like me to keep going?
There’s. A. Difference.
avast really said it all in one complete go. 🙂
Side note to say that the Pros and Flows thread is still going – BlackRose and perversecowgirl are debating whether anyone really likes cervical stimulation, and there’s been a call for people with cervixes (cervices?) to weigh in…
avast is pretty spot on, although I’ll also agree with the guy who says it’s no skin off his back when people refer to their dogs as their children. But it’s just not the same thing at all, and that’s coming from a guy with a puppy and a 1-year-old.
The key difference, to me, is the time commitment. Those of you claiming “my pets are my kids”…have you ever gone out drinking (or shopping or what have you) and left your dog or cat at home alone? There’s the difference. Being a parent is a 24/7/365 job. If you leave your pet behind, at home alone for ANY reason, well, that in itself makes it a lesser commitment (in terms of time, not love).
As I said above, I have a 1-year-old. I recognize that I will be able to leave him home alone on a dozen or so years, which strains my comparison. But society holds parents and pet owners to different standards, and for good reason. I can leave my puppy alone at home without anything bad happening. If I treated my son that way, the state would take him away from me, and rightfully so.
avast is pretty spot on, although I’ll also agree with the guy who says it’s no skin off his back when people refer to their dogs as their children. But it’s just not the same thing at all, and that’s coming from a guy with a puppy and a 1-year-old.
The key difference, to me, is the time commitment. Those of you claiming “my pets are my kids”…have you ever gone out drinking (or shopping or what have you) and left your dog or cat at home alone? There’s the difference. Being a parent is a 24/7/365 job. If you leave your pet behind, at home alone for ANY reason, well, that in itself makes it a lesser commitment (in terms of time, not love).
As I said above, I have a 1-year-old. I recognize that I will be able to leave him home alone on a dozen or so years, which strains my comparison. But society holds parents and pet owners to different standards, and for good reason. I can leave my puppy alone at home without anything bad happening. If I treated my son that way, the state would take him away from me, and rightfully so.
@Erica
I don’t know if I’ve ever noticed the feeling in and of itself but sometimes I feel something akin to cramps after sex and I assume that it got hit sometime during.
I whimper like a baby every time I have to do a pap smear so I’m firmly in the “leave my cervix alone, thanks” camp.
But as long as there’s broads who like getting hurt during sex, there will likely be ones who like getting their cervix rammed.
@39 – Wow, you packed a lot of assumptions in one paragraph.
“these example letters are supposed to be any threat to some people’s love for and enjoyment of monogamy”
Umm, they’re not? You seem to have overlooked Dan’s love of punny catch-phrases and the distinction he likes to make between Monogamoust and MonogaMUSTs. The question wasn’t addressed to people who love and enjoy monogamy, it was addressed to people who insist everyone must, too (which, I note, you do not in your post). I don’t think I’ve ever read Dan threaten people who arrive at the honest and thoughtful conclusion that monogamy is what they want, only those who assume its intrinsic superiority.
“I’d prefer to be spared from being unknowingly trapped in a false relationship!”
It’s a huge jump from sexual infidelity to the whole relationship is false, or specifically that a cheating spouse is false in everything related to the relationship. The whole point of nonmonogamy is that sex isn’t core of a healthy relationship, but sexual unhappiness (including unhappiness that your spouse wants sex with someone else) can poison everything else that is good. You can be deeply in love, best friends, devoted parents, materially interdependent and reliable and incredibly effective partners, all with or without monogamy. For true.
“Maybe all those things you cherish about your relationship are a lie, so there!”
Really, all the things you cherish about your relationship are sexual monogamy? Nothing else is true?
OK, I’ll weigh in. Without saying anything for or against Erica, there’s no doubt that she is a dominant voice here. I like Hunter78 and his calling her out from time to time.
So sue me.
@112, 124: What baffles me is the one-sided comparison here. Sure, if you open things up it’s possible that your partner might leave you for someone else, as a result of opening things up and forming bonds with other people. But it’s also possible that if you leave things closed, your partner might leave you for an open relationship, or for being single, as a direct result of keeping things closed. It’s not a fair comparison if you only look at one side.
I’ve been in the latter situation, and I just found it ironic that my partner didn’t want to be in an open relationship because she was so scared of losing me… and that’s why she lost me.