I am a 16-year-old female. I have been in a monogamous relationship with a boy for seven months. My first, his too. A couple of months in, we began to explore masturbating each other and oral sex. He has gone down on me three times, but I have never given him a blowjob. I’m scared to because I’m scared he will be disappointed. We fight sometimes because he feels it’s unfair that he goes down on me and I don’t go down on him.
On top of this, he started doing something when we are in the midst of being sexual that I don’t understand. He will stick the tip of his hard penis just inside the opening to my vagina, again and again. I guess you could call it “probing.” I know enough to know that there’s a slight risk of pregnancy, as pre-come can get a woman pregnant and he doesn’t wear a condom when he does this. We are planning on having complete vaginal intercourse in the next few months, with condoms and birth control, but this is happening now and it worries me.
This is what I need advice about: I know that there is a very small risk of pregnancy even if we use condoms and birth control. I couldn’t handle a child at my age or the humiliation of being pregnant at 16 and having to walk around town with the evidence out for all to see. I would have an abortion. He disagrees strongly with abortion, but he’s not the one who would have to go through it all! So I would probably end up having an abortion without telling him, which seems completely unfair.
No Clue What To Do
I’m going to take your problems one at a time, NCWTD, in ascending order of importance/assholery.
1. A disappointing blowjob is always less disappointing than no blowjob at all, NCWTD, particularly for teenage boys. So it’s always better to err on the side of blowjobs.
Yes, you’ll probably be pretty inept at first. Take things slowly and only take him as far into your mouth as you feel comfortable with. (Feel free to wrap a fist or two around the base of his cock so you can control how fast and far his dick goes into your mouth.) Don’t let your boyfriend rush or guilt you into blowing him until he comes by pointing to all the times—all the three times!—that he went down on you. Sucking cock is physically trickier and more taxing than eating pussy. That may seem crazy unfair—hasa diga eebowai—but on the bright side, it frees you from having to get him off with your mouth the first few dozen times you attempt to blow him.
2. Probing is low-risk for pregnancy, NCWTD, but there’s still some risk. What worries me is that this activity makes you uncomfortable and either you haven’t said anything to your boyfriend or you have said something and he’s doing it anyway. Tell him no more probing, if you haven’t already, and if he initiates probing after you’ve made it clear that you’re not comfortable with it, break the fuck up with him. Which brings us to…
3. You’re going to have to go Bitch Puddin’ on his ass, NCWTD. Memorize this, say it to him, and mean it: “If I let you stick your dick in my vagina and I get pregnant, I am getting an abortion. If you can’t live with that—if you aren’t willing to shoulder the psychic risk of knowing that your girlfriend would get or actually got an abortion, while she shoulders the actual physical risk of an unplanned pregnancy—then I am never going to let you stick your dick in my vagina. You’re free to disagree with my choice, of course, but you can’t prevent me from making that choice. So what’s it going to be?”
I’m a 25-year-old gay male with a foot fetish. I have a wonderful boyfriend who lets me indulge by rubbing his feet. When I brought him home to meet the folks, at one point he took his shoes off and casually rested his feet in my lap while sitting in the living room with my parents. I felt really weird about rubbing his feet with my parents looking on. My boyfriend thinks I shouldn’t worry because my parents don’t know about my kink and a foot rub looks innocent enough. Am I right to feel weird about this?
Bear Foot Fetishist
Let’s say your parents ran across shitloads of gay foot fetish porn on your computer when you were still a teenager. Are your mom and dad the kind of open-minded, sexually progressive parents who would ruin your sex life forever by initiating a mortifying conversation about what they found? Or are they the kind of closed-minded, sexually inhibited parents who would do the right thing and never, ever mention what they found? Hopefully the latter.
So it’s entirely possible that your parents do know about your kink, BFF, and that they were deeply weirded out when your new boyfriend went out of his way to give you a boner while they were sitting there. For all you know, your parents are at home right now questioning your judgment and wondering how they can get out of inviting your boyfriend for Thanksgiving without seeming like homophobes.
And speaking of questionable judgment: I’ve watched a lot of hot boys from small towns wash up in my urban hellhole over the years. These boys typically leverage their good looks to get jobs making coffee/burritos/drinks/whatever, and then, over the course of a year or two, throw their good looks away with the assistance of booze, cigarettes, tattoo artists, and professional piercers. I get it: Nothing stays the same, all things die, and these guys aren’t trying to earn social or sexual currency with the old fags in the hood.
But there’s this one waiter/barista/bartender/whatever who works in a place near my office—I’m not going to say exactly what he does—who, having already gone in for full tattoo sleeves on both arms, recently stuck a pair of plugs in his earlobes. His plugs are moderately sized, but I worry that they’re going to get bigger and bigger until this boy—who’s just so damn lovely—turns his earlobes into
earlabia. (That’s what they look like when people walk around without the plugs in.)
They’re not my ears, I realize, and this boy, like all the other hipster boys, can do what he likes with his own earlobes. But earlabia don’t look good on anybody. Please make a note of it, hipster boys.
I’m a 20-year-old female girl. I’m sure you’ve addressed this qualm many times: I’m wondering if it’s bad that I use porn to masturbate. I can pleasure myself without porn, but I enjoy it more when I do. I feel bad after I do it. Is it bad? Should I stop?
Worried Porn Girl
Not bad, WPG, don’t stop.
You should, however, be a conscientious female girl porn consumer. Superstar sex writer Violet Blue does an amazing job covering and uncovering porn that’s nonexploitative and female-girl-positive/female-girl-created, WPG, and reading Violet will help cure you of that niggling case of postorgasmic porn shame you’ve got. (For the record: Straight porn created by and for men can be female-girl-positive, too.) Read Violet at www.tinynibbles.com.
Website of the Week: www.gayhomophobe.com.
Find the Savage Lovecast (my weekly podcast) every Tuesday at thestranger.com/savage.
To Karenforeplay, I don’t think eating pussy is any easier than giving a blow job to a guy. Those tender lips are very fragile and a guy has to really master his mouth to truly give good oral to a woman. One false move with teeth, even beard stubble can wreck the whole experience. You have to move your mouth in unison with her body, grinding down with tongue, lips (maybe even teeth if she likes that) at just the right time and really get into synch with her body. Conversely, you need to know just exactly when a subtle, tender lips and tongue approach is more appropriate. If you feel and listen for just the right cues, you’re rewarded with a wonderful experience an in-your-face orgasm, and you hang on, tasting, riding with it and experiencing it up close and personal. My ex wife spent 17 years teaching me the fine art of giving good head and I’m grateful for that.
@218
It didn’t look like bragging!
I was just pointing out to him that he was singling me out for the reason of not liking me when I was hardly the only person claiming a little talent in that department.
Sorry if I wasn’t clear. Nothing wrong with admitting when you’re good at something.
Fingers aren’t soft enough for your taste?
Soft is good? Women who like oral sex baffle me… haha.
@Atlas #7…. you can’t generalize about child support. Some pay a lot, some pay a little.
@225 Hunter78,
I have been in a monogamous relationship most of my life, (over half) but I still had other partners before my wife. I plead guilty to serial monogamy.
Peace.
To NCWTD – from a moms perspective.
I just has been talking to my daughter about some of the things NCWTD is worried about.
About pregnancy worries my suggestion was:
1. “Just say No to unprotected sex. Take your boyfriend condom shopping. Choose fun condoms to try. Use different brand each time. Buy them with your own money… whatever. But don’t allow entering your vagina without protection. By the way, there is no need to get into arguments. Be nice but firm! Figuring out birth control is sooooo much easier than getting an abortion or having a child! Trust me – I done both.
2. Depending on the insurance situation of your parents, they might get you birth control. The best kind currently is the IUD. It’s a little more expensive than the pill, but is more dependable and is cheaper in the long run. This is what I am planning to get my daughter.
3. Don’t worry if your mom will get upset that you are having sex. She will be mad at first sure, but will get over it, I promise you. She will have to face the facts and figure out that helping you now will make sense, considering the consequences of NOT helping out. In fact, your mom might be pleased that you asked her for advice, and flattered that you thought she would understand. That is exactly how I felt.
4. Regarding blow job – maybe it seems weird but try looking at a few porn sites to learn to do a blow job. That would be a great investment in your relationship. (LOL I didn’t make this suggestion to my daughter, but maybe I should!)
All the best to you!!! By the way, thanks for sharing your worries! I hope that you would get good suggestions from this discussion!
@228
Isn’t the IUD not recommended for teens? It’s a great birth control option, but if a girl gets an STI when she has an IUD, she has a higher risk of getting PID–and teenage girls, since they are just starting out in their sex lives, are likely to have several partners in the 5 or 10 years that their IUD stays in. Also, women who haven’t been pregnant before are likelier to have their bodies expel the IUD, and it’s my impression that this can happen without the woman noticing, hence the need for routinely checking for that goddamn string. My info on this subject might be outdated, of course.
With respect to your #4, that’s not weird at all; it’s a great suggestion. I would only add that she should seek out gay porn sites–you can see some pretty pathetic blowjobs in straight porn.
@229 – I’m not sure about IUDs for teenagers, but I’ve never had a child and my doctor had no issue with me getting one. And I’m pretty sure that if my uterus decided to spit it out, I would know. It’s small, sure, but not THAT small. You sure as hell feel it going in…
@Hunter
Do you know what hypocritical means?
Try again, moron.
@2 I understand what you’re saying, and it makes sense if you look at the situation kind of myopically, but the reason that courts don’t usually allow men to not pay child support because they didn’t want the child to be born is because there’s a child involved. While it may not be fair to the parents, it’s perhaps less fair to have a kid grow up without getting the financial support that he needs. Maybe the mom’s despicable for having a kid the dad didn’t want, but that’s not really her child’s fault right?
@Nellygirl. Oddly enough, Atlas has a very good very solid point. If the woman holds all the rights to make the choice on having an abortion (aka to hell if the guy wants to have the child) then perhaps the guy should have the right to opt out of child support (aka I ASKED you to have the abortion…)
Sure, I realize I’m going to get hell for this, because after all the GUY should have worn the condom, right? What about the girl? This girl is saying her choice about pregnancy isn’t prevention, it’s AFTER the fact. While I AM pro-choice, what she’s saying is straight out sick. Call it premeditated murder. It’s about the only time I’ll hop on that side of the fence. Abortion is meant for “oh $hit, that shouldn’t have happened” scenarios, or, if the child has some serious problems… not because, well, I kept letting him dicktease me, KNOWING I’d get pregnant. Show some responsibility. Either make him cover up, take the pill, take the shot, wear a diaphragm… I don’t care, do SOMETHING! But allowing it to happen, and using abortion as a safety net, for that… it’s just f’ing wrong.
@233: I don’t think you can call yourself pro-choice. Abortion is meant for anyone who is pregnant and doesn’t want to be.
@142: As far as I know there has never been sperm found in a precum sample. Let me know if you have a source stating otherwise. It’s basically impossible for your cousin to have gotten pregnant from dry humping. It’s much more likely that she did have sex, but didn’t feel comfortable telling someone, or that she had sex but doesn’t remember it, or that she blacked out and was raped.
@145: That’s a great approach to child support and it makes perfect sense! Wish we could have some sane laws in the US.
@233: Ummmmm, yes, but it’s still the WOMAN, not the man being penetrated here. Like Dan Savage has long said in his book, Savage Love, as long as intercourse between heterosexuals—one man and one woman—is a given, the woman assumes the majority of the risk: unwanted pregnancy, STDs, etc. Whereas, SURPRISE!! the man can shoot and walk away. The woman, if pregnant, is left with a kid.
Guys should KNOW this before going in, even “just a little”!
So BEFORE you launch into a Ridiculous-Right diatribe about a man’s “rights” being violated if a woman seeks an abortion but he “suddenly wants to keep the kid”, I have a suggestion for you and all other clueless “How’d That Happen?!?” doofuses who keep playing dumb about the inside of a woman’s body, mainly because you don’t know, don’t care, and because it doesn’t physically, hormonally, or emotionally effect you:
Get yourselves knocked up and we’ll talk.
Hmmm. Maybe you need a cattle prod in the bodoobies.
To Auntie (aka 235)
Yes, she is the woman, and as the WOMAN she has an important role to play… called not letting her body be impregnated if that isn’t what she really wants. Granted, shit happens. Condoms break, birth control is never 100%, etc… however, if she wants to romp, or let him “tip her”… she’s basically just rolling the dice, and accepting abortion as a standard means of birth control.
So, clueless. No more than you. I know how it happens, in fact, I have two of my own (BOTH while using b/c). Had the option of abortion, no thanks. But, since we at least tried to prevent BEFORE conception… we have more of a right than most to terminate. Still didn’t use it.
Sorry to kick the soap box out from under you, but yes, the man has many RIGHTS which are trampled by the woman who forces her rights above all else.
Oh, and as much as I enjoy reading Dan’s columns, you’re an absolute fool if you read this book and pulled “the woman assumes the majority of the risk (specifically on STDs). If the man got the STDs… it most likely wasn’t from another man. Risk of STDs are perfectly 50/50.
But I digress, my apologies. Point here really isn’t about the rights of abortion/child support. The woman “assuming the majority of the risk” should be far more responsible than playing the “How’d that happen”, knowing her body as you said and take PREVENTATIVE measures… not using abortion as a “just because”. Be proactive, not reactive. That’s just ridiculous.
Turn the cattle prod on yourself, thank you.
@236 “I have two of my own (BOTH while using b/c).”
If that happened to you twice, then you aren’t using birth control correctly. And if access to abortion were based on proper contraception use, you’d go to the back of the line. But you’re the only one proposing that scheme…
Oh god, now this “reckless” person is just trolling. It is well established that the risk of STDs is not 50/50 in hetero intercourse.
@238: Not that I think reckless is in this category, but it is possible (though unlikely) for a careful, intelligent, responsible person to use birth control correctly and still get pregnant twice. If 10,000 couples use a method of birth control perfectly, and it has a 99% per year effective rate with perfect use, in two years, one couple on the average will have gotten pregnant twice. With 100 million couples or so in the US, this should happen to 10,000 of them on the average, even with perfect use.
@239, yes, but — if you were the person who had that happen to you once, would you stick with your method of birth control? Anyone sane & sensible would think, hey, maybe I’m exceptionally fertile, or my partner is, since we were trying hard not to get pregnant but it still happened.
So a sane & sensible person would take extra precautions — the pill plus condom plus morning-after pill any time the condom broke. I think your partner’s odds of getting pregnant under that regimen would go down significantly.
@239, yes, but — if you were the person who had that happen to you once, would you stick with your method of birth control? Anyone sane & sensible would think, hey, maybe I’m exceptionally fertile, or my partner is, since we were trying hard not to get pregnant but it still happened.
So a sane & sensible person would take extra precautions — the pill plus condom plus morning-after pill any time the condom broke. I think your partner’s odds of getting pregnant under that regimen would go down significantly.
(apologies for the double post)
@236: No, recklesstroll, the cattle prod honor goes to you. Congratulations, and wear it well. All the best when you start soloing at The Met in the leading soprano role.
And one more thing—I never recommended use of repeated abortions as a birth control method. You did. So much for the validity of your safety net argument. So who’s the fool? You are.
@239 Black Rose and @242 Erica P: Thank you and right on!!
@236 I may have misinterpreted Reckless’s post, but I didn’t read it as stating you were advocating abortion as a birth control method, just that it is just as important, if not more for a woman to be aware of possible birth control options since she is the one who would get pregnant.
It’s definitely not fair to say that only people who make smart decisions about birth control should have access to abortions, but at the same time, it seems ridiculous that someone could, in theory, choose to never use any preventative method, and just have an abortion any time they came up pregnant. Sure it’s an option, and there are people who do it, but why would anyone want to. I am all about a woman’s right to choose. While I don’t know that I could personally have an abortion, I’ve never been in an awful position where it seemed to be my only option, so I’d like to know it is one. But I think it would be great if people who went for abortions, instead of (in some places) being forced to see things that make them feel guilty, be taught proper use of birth control for the future.
Sorry, meant @ 244, posting to 236… oops
@246 & @247 KateRose: I missed something in the translation. Are you responding to me or @236? It sounds like you and I basically agree about abortion.
@248 I do think we basically agree. What I was saying was that after rereading 236, I believe reckless basically holds a similar opinion (not entirely) but had a hard time spelling it out.
@249: No sweat. Thanks for the clarification.
I’m still not 100% in agreement with reckless, however.
Erica P and Black Rose best corroborated my viewpoints.
@249: No sweat. Thanks for the clarification.
Reckless has been stumbling out since his mouth flew open and a foot got stuck.
RRRRRRGHHH!
Like Erica P, I’m sorry about the double post!
@246: Why would that be ridiculous? Abortion is a type of birth control, after all — it controls births — although it’s not a contraceptive. Why shouldn’t people be able to choose abortion over other methods if that’s what they want? It’s a perfectly “proper” use of birth control, though I certainly support providing information about other methods as well.
@ 253, yes, it would be her choice technically to use it as a birth control method. However, while there are complications that can result from any form of birth control, abortion has more physical risks than other forms. Not only do some abortions result in a live birth because they weren’t performed correctly (so it would make sense in my mind to try to prevent the pregnancy in the first place), but every abortion is a medical procedure. Medical procedures can result in infections and inevitably cause some, albeit minute (hopefully) damage. The more abortions, the more chances for infection and the more possibility of damage.
The women I’ve known who have had abortions have had to deal with some pain, or at least discomfort for several days afterward. And many have guilt. While that may not be the case for everyone who has an abortion, it does hold true for a lot of people. Even if it’s not immediate, many do feel bad about it later.
I do fully support the right to abortion. Whether you believe a fetus is a human or not, it is still “alive”. Even if you consider it to be alive in the same way some do as parasites. It is alive as a separate entity from the person it is inside. Again,I suppose, in theory because I support the right to choice, it’s up to the person, but I think prevention is the more responsible choice over removal, especially considering the added risks involved in removal.
I’ll admit that some of this may be biased since I don’t see myself as capable of having an abortion myself, even in more extreme circumstances. But as I’ve not been in those extreme circumstances, I can’t say that with 100% certainty.
I’ll always support a woman’s right to abortion, but I will consider someone who uses that as their only form of birth control irresponsible because of the risks they are taking on themselves. Just like, I imagine, many people consider me irresponsible for becoming a smoker at 15. And I’d have to agree with those people. Smoking is a risk to my health that is unnecessary. Abortion is a risk to health that could have been unnecessary if precautions were taken. Yes, those precautions are not 100% effective. But even 50% would be better than 0.
@253 and @254: That all makes perfect sense to me.
@254: Sure, there’s always a risk of infection. But abortion is a very safe procedure, and there are risks with other birth control as well. The pill can have side effects. Condoms can cause allergic reactions. IUDs can cause infections or pain. As far as I know, abortion is not significantly riskier or more irresponsible than other forms of birth control. Unlike smoking, which has huge negative health effects.
I’d agree that an abortion would probably cause more pain and be more of a hassle to go through, and that most women would probably prefer prevention. I just don’t think an abortion is “irresponsible”: what if someone wants one for some other reason (maybe a political one, or to have the experience and write about it?) Or what if someone for some reason really doesn’t like or has negative reactions to all other forms of birth control?
@Blackrose
That’s pretty disgusting.
Honestly.
The reason we deliniate between “birth” as the beginning of life is not a scientific one, but a legal one that ensures women who truly need abortions can have them.
But if someone is using it as a birth control method or a publicity stunt that deeply disturbs me. And to me shows a lack of respect for human life.
I am 10000% pro-choice.
But I’m not for what you’re suggesting, at all.
“Irresponsible” might not be the word I’d choose. But I would be extremely worried about the mental health and/or moral issues of such a person.
@256 I did mention that there are risks with other forms of birth control. And if someone did have a reaction to all other forms of birth control, well, that would be one of those “extreme circumstances”.
I’m all for being open minded, but lines have to be drawn somewhere. While I’m pro choice, I still do believe that it’s a life after conception. I understand and support the people who disagree for having that opinion, but the idea that someone would purposely create (for the sake of argument) a “potential life” then take it away just for experience sake. I’d probably give them a several years late term abortion if I met them on the street.
@255: Further clarification of my opinion on what @253 said: I personally wouldn’t choose abortion as a method of birth control, but I wouldn’t stand in anyone else’s way.
Okay. I’m done.
@258: You care about life so much that you’d kill someone for having an abortion if you didn’t like their reason?
@257: You can worry about my mental health and moral issues if you’d like: I strongly support abortion at any time for any reason, and I don’t think there’s ever anything wrong with an abortion. It’s not a moral issue any more than getting a tooth pulled is.
Now I recognize that my position is in the minority. Without those people who think abortion should be legal even if they don’t think it’s right some of the time, abortion probably wouldn’t be legal. But I don’t really understand how people can say they are totally pro-choice, but still think that there’s something somehow wrong with an abortion because of the reason a woman has one. That’s religious pro-life anti-human rights crap.
@260: Amen!
@260
I feel like that’s a pretty ignorant viewpoint, honestly.
You think killing a person is wrong but abortion isn’t? Where is the line between abortion and infanticide? Is it a legitimate one?
That was the point I was making.
Abortion is a lesser-of-two-evils, not a non-evil.
P.S. I’m an atheist, life-long, not raised religious, don’t believe in an afterlife, don’t believe in a soul, etc. The religion thing doesn’t pertain to me.
@262: Yes, agreed, I’m ignorant of any secular reasonable argument against abortion. I think it’s a pretty straightforward question. People should control what’s inside their bodies. But feel free to enlighten me. I don’t see why it’s a lesser of two evils.
The line between abortion and infanticide is at birth. Some philosophers, like Peter Singer, have made arguments for infanticide, but since a born child is no longer inside someone’s body it’s very different.
But that’s an artificial, arbitrary (but somewhat neccessary) line, hence my comment.
If a baby is viable, but still inside the mother, is it acceptable to kill him/her? What if the baby is half in, half out? How viable is viable? Etc.
I’m not arguing AGAINST abortion. I think in legitimate cases (again, includes a grey area) it’s the right thing to do. If a cop shoots someone because they have a gun drawn on an innocent person, that might be the right thing to do. But I’d still expect a normal person to feel a little weird about taking a human life. And I wouldn’t condone someone shooting someone “just to have the experience” and “blog about it”.
@264: Let’s use correct and non-inflammatory language here: before it’s born, it’s a fetus that gets aborted, not a baby that gets killed. It’s not so clear that a fetus is a “human life.” It may be one biologically, but in the sense that matters here — a person, having human rights, part of a moral community, worthy of respect and dignity — I don’t think it is.
I don’t think the line is arbitrary or artificial at all. You control your body: that’s a basic principle of human rights. Whatever is inside your body is within your domain of control. You don’t always control things or people outside your body.
I’ve never been a cop. Or an executioner. Or a soldier. Or in any situation where I could rightfully kill someone. I don’t know how I’d feel. But I don’t think abortion is comparable, at all. A fetus is inside someone’s body, completely connected and dependent on it, has never interacted with any other human being, and doesn’t really have any characteristics we’d associate with intelligence or morality or humanity.
My main objection to what you’re saying is that you’re drawing a line for what you think is legitimate based on the reason a woman gets an abortion, and past that is something you wouldn’t condone. Abortion is a right that’s constantly being attacked and criticized. I don’t think we should look at the reasons people have for controlling their own bodies: it’s their right. You say you’re not arguing against abortion, but you’re not clearly supporting it in all cases, and you seem to think it’s something that people should feel bad or weird or guilty about.
It’s not a matter of caring about life, it’s a matter of weeding out morons. I don’t care about life, but kids are innocent. It’s adults that screw everything up. Personally, I think things would be better if we could go around bashing people we didn’t like in the head. Sure, I might end up a casualty of that, but at least I wouldn’t have to deal with the idiots I put up with daily.
I’m glad there’s a healthy debate over all the “potential pregnancy” implications of the first letter from NCWTD, though the divergence into abortion debates doesn’t really help anything.
BUT DAN, DAN, DAN! Why the f&ck did you rail against sleeves, piercings and lobe plugs (a.k.a. “earlabia”) in the middle of a half-assed response to a guy wondering about a FOOT MASSAGE. You short-changed him, went WAY off on a tangent and seemed to countermand your own mission statement.
My girlfriend and I have been big fans of yours for a while, but you’re slipping, buddy. She has an AMAZING sleeve that took 4 years to complete, let alone the years she spent planning, researching and drawing it, then teaming with close artist friends to work on it. She also has 1-inch plugs and “earlabia” that I don’t even really notice, except when I’m riding her hard and sucking on them — like we did just this morning. Oh, and I also LOVE sucking on her double-nipple posts while she rides me. We’re having the best sex of our lives and we’re madly in love. I’m nearly 43 years old with NO tattoos/piercings at all, she’s nearly 32 with lots of tattoos and the aforementioned plugs and nipple posts. Why would I care about them on her?!?!? She’s AMAZING! And she gets REALLY tired of having her “book” read “by the cover”, so to speak. You of all people should understand that.
She does NOT have low self-esteem, and she knows a lot about tattoos and piercings, as she was a tattoo artist in Chicago for a while. She LEFT the industry because of all the junk she was being forced to ink on drunk-assed douchebags and douchettes. So trust me… we know what’s going on when it comes to body modifications and art. Yes, art.
Anyway, PLEASE try to stay on point when answering a sincere question from people who DESPERATELY need good, insightful, mature answers in this deplorably sexually inept country of ours. PLEASE. Thank you.
SRP
I’d like to point out that fetuses don’t vote either, but women do.
I’m just saying.
Before I even check to see the responses to my post @ 266, please allow me to apologize. I had a horrible day, and felt like saying horrible things. I won’t bore you with the details, but suffice it to say my life is falling apart around me. It’s not a good excuse for posting that and putting my bad day on everyone else.
“It may be one biologically, but in the sense that matters here — a person, having human rights, part of a moral community, worthy of respect and dignity — I don’t think it is.”
The seperation between baby and fetus is again, not a hard and fast one biologically, and thus the distinction is hardly secular, in my mind.
Some babies are born premature, do they then become “persons” before those that are carried to term? Is a 8 months old fetus a “non-person” on par with a tooth and a 1-month premature baby is worthy of respect and dignity? Is the head a “baby’s head” and the feet a “fetus’ feet” midway through birth? The head to be cherished and the feet to be discarded at will? What about a C-section, do they become a person upon incision? Or is it, as you suggest, the viability? Whether or not they could survive outside the mother. A baby with Tay-Sachs will never reach adulthood. Are they not a person for that reason?
Like I said, I support abortion, and these arbitrary distinctions NEED to be made to protect the rights of women. I believe every woman is entitled to have an abortion regardless of the reason but I will find certain reasons morally repugnant.
@269: Really sorry to hear, and I totally understand. I feel like bashing idiots in the head most days also. Hope you feel better and feel free to post here or email if you need any support or help.
@270: How is birth not a biological separation? Before birth, a woman has a fetus in her body. After birth, it’s a separate and disconnected organism that’s breathing and making noise and exposed to the world. Did you mean “secular” in your comment? Presumably as an atheist you only care about secular distinctions.
I just don’t understand why you find some reasons morally repugnant, or, put another way, why you care about a fetus.
I don’t think I suggested that viability was relevant. After all, some day we may have incubators with which any fetus is viable, even newly conceived ones. And babies aren’t really “viable” without a lot of support and, often, technology. Some sick or disabled people aren’t either but they’re still people.
You hint at a difficult question: a mother, perhaps without abortion access, kills or abandons her recent newborn. Is this worse than abortion? The end result is pretty much the same. As you point out, a newborn isn’t much of a person either. But it’s not a right to kill or abandon a newborn, the way controlling your own body is.
There is a case to be made that infanticide isn’t wrong, or at least not as wrong as killing someone old enough to talk and think. But we as a society don’t want to condone killing separate, born, human beings, because of where this might lead, and how it might affect people who saw or did this. We do have exceptions for war and self-defense: I could see “recent unwanted birth” being another such exception. Some states have “safe surrender” laws as a way of safely dealing with unwanted newborns, which is one solution. I could also see having graduated penalties that get worse as a newborn gets older. These are difficult questions, similar to mercy-killing questions involving someone dying and in great pain.
“How is birth not a biological separation?”
Biology doesn’t always like to make neat and tidy distinctions and seperations. The law does. Religion does. Biology does not. Much like “girl” and “boy” aren’t always black and white, neither are “baby” and “fetus”.
Please reread, regarding the muddiness of this distinction…
Some babies are born premature, do they then become “persons” before those that are carried to term? Is a 8 months old fetus a “non-person” on par with a tooth and a 1-month premature baby is worthy of respect and dignity? Is the head a “baby’s head” and the feet a “fetus’ feet” midway through birth? The head to be cherished and the feet to be discarded at will? What about a C-section, do they become a person upon incision?
You are pretending something is black and white when really there are gradations of grey.
To say that a person is a trivial clump of cells the millisecond before they leave the birth canal and are a “person, having human rights, part of a moral community, worthy of respect and dignity” the millisecond after is EXTREMELY arbitrary. You truly don’t realize that?
@266 & @269: No worries. No offense taken.
I don’t mind a little doofus-bashing, myself, except that in
a battle of wits, they’re usually unarmed.
@272: You’re confusing two different things I said.
Before birth, a fetus is physically inside a woman’s body. It’s her right to control her own body. After birth, the baby is physically separate. Inside/outside. Fetus/baby. That is a clear, black-and-white biological distinction. That’s why there’s nothing wrong with abortion, but infanticide is a trickier question.
However, being a person with human rights, versus a non-person, isn’t a clear or biological distinction: it’s a moral and a social one. That’s a shades-of-grey issue. A newborn infant is not a full person who is a member of a moral community. An adult is. There’s a gradual transition.
Sigh.
My point applies there as well.
To say that [it is perfectly moral to end the life of a being] the millisecond before they leave the birth canal and [it is a tricky moral question about whether or not to end their life] the millisecond after is EXTREMELY arbitrary. You truly don’t realize that?
You think that is, indeed, a clear black and white?