To become a “member” at Mars Hill Church requires more than attending church. Becoming a full-fledged member—a process highly encouraged, and sometimes thunderously demanded, in Pastor Mark Driscoll’s sermons—requires months of classes and a careful study of Doctrine: What Christians Should Believe, Driscoll’s 463-page Mars Hill textbook. To seal the deal, the prospective member must formally agree to submit to the “authority” of the Mars Hill leadership.
Driscoll, the church’s cofounder and public face, has made a name for himself with his strutting, macho interpretation of Christianity, one in which men are unquestioned heads of their households and “chick-ified church boys,” as he calls them, need not apply. He rails against mainstream Christians who imagine a “Richard Simmons, hippie, queer Christ… a neutered and limp-wristed popular Sky Fairy.” Instead, he has molded a doctrine based on manliness, sexual purity, and submission to authority: wives to husbands, husbands to pastors, and everyone to God.
Lance, a soft-spoken ex-military guy whose real name is not Lance, started attending Mars Hill Church in early 2008, became a full member before the year was out, and by October of 2010 was deeply and happily immersed in the life of the church. It was, he says, “like a second family.” Around that time, Lance says he “did something I shouldn’t have done.” (I told Lance I wouldn’t divulge his “sins,” but they were amorous indiscretions that anyone who isn’t a fundamentalist Christian, Jew, or Muslim would find extremely minor.) Lance said he “felt like a hypocrite,” so he voluntarily confessed and submitted to six months of counseling and spiritual probation.
In August 2011, a few months after his full restoration to the church, Lance was enjoying life in a Mars Hill house, living with other men and paying his rent in volunteer labor. But that autumn, he had a disagreement with one of his pastors over a building-safety issue during a church party. As Lance tells it, the pastor said Lance was being overcautious, Lance disagreed, and the disagreement metastasized into a weeks-long debate—not about the safety issue, per se, but about whether Lance was being “insubordinate” and refusing to properly “submit.”
“I began to question their authority,” Lance says, “and their ability to make good decisions.”
In the midst of this, Lance had begun a long-distance relationship with a young woman in Colorado. Lance says that his pastor instructed him to end the relationship, even though their relationship was not yet physical and nothing improper had happened. Lance balked, but his pastor insisted: “I’m the authority over you,” the pastor said, according to Lance. “You agreed when you became a member that I am your authority, and you have to obey us.” Lance was torn—on one hand, he had signed that membership contract.
On the other hand, this was ridiculous.
In a final, tense meeting, Lance got fed up with the leadership’s harping about submission and authority. “How is this not a Jim Jones theology?” Lance remembers asking. “We don’t even think you were a Christian to begin with,” the pastor retorted, according to Lance, and left the room. The church told him to move out and, if he wouldn’t submit to church demands, to cut off any communication with members of Mars Hill.
Lance quit the church.
But the church didn’t quit him. Not only was he barred from speaking with his now-former friends at the church, Lance says his pastor threatened to contact any future church that he might attend. And then Lance’s pastor took the extra step of calling the father of Lance’s girlfriend in Colorado. “They were warning him how dangerous I was,” Lance says. “That I was on a path of destruction that could result in the death of his daughter.”
That father, Lieutenant Colonel Mike Hanyok, is a retired marine and evangelical Christian who says the Mars Hill leadership overstepped its authority. “There is church leadership to guide and provide order,” he says, “but not lordship over the congregation.” Hanyok spent 21 years in the US Marines and says, “Poor leadership is one of my pet peeves… the church isn’t to come in and tell me how to manage my family.” Hanyok says he used to watch Driscoll’s sermons online, but doesn’t anymore.
Lance calls the church culture “manipulative” and says, “I don’t want this to happen to other people… It’s how people wound up drinking Kool-Aid.” He adds, “I still love Jesus. But I can continue my spiritual walk just fine at a different church… Mars Hill seems crazy to me now.”
Last week, a similar story from a former Mars Hill member named Andrew erupted into an online firestorm that left some church critics, including longtime members who’ve since departed, wondering aloud whether Mars Hill is crossing the line from church to cult.
On January 23, Andrew released some internal church disciplinary documents to the blog Matthewpaulturner.net. Andrew had sinned by kissing a woman who wasn’t his fiancée and then confessed the sin to his community-group leader. In Mars Hill parlance, “community groups” are breakout sessions that happen throughout the week. Everyone attends a weekend service at one of the 11 Mars Hill campuses to watch a live broadcast of Driscoll preaching from his Ballard church, and then attends various community groups—often in people’s homes—to discuss the week’s lesson.
After Andrew confessed his sinful kissing to his community-group leader, he says he was asked to step down from church responsibilities, forced to attend lots of meetings and confessions over the course of a month about his sinful action, and asked to agree to a “discipline” plan, which included the following acts of repentance and submission: “Andrew will not pursue or date any woman inside or outside MH; Andrew will write out in detail his sexual and emotional attachment history with women and share it with [redacted]; Andrew will write out in detail the chronology of events and sexual/emotional sin with [redacted] and share it with [redacted] and Pastor [redacted]…”
After thinking it over, Andrew refused and quit the church—but just like with Lance, the church didn’t quit him. In a letter Andrew says is from Mars Hill, one pastor told members to shun Andrew because he refused to “submit to his church leaders” and to not discuss anything with him besides repentance. It even offered a few helpful lines for awkward encounters: “Andrew, I would enjoy time with you, but I can’t because you’re under church discipline. You can join me if we can talk about your refusal to listen to God and the church.”
Once Andrew leaked the documents, the Christian blogosphere exploded with indignation. People were furious about the church’s invasive demands: to stop dating until told otherwise, to write “in detail his sexual and emotional attachment history with women,” to cut off ties with his friends at Mars Hill. It seemed less about getting right with God than public humiliation and congregation control.
Blog posts appeared with titles like “Never Mind Andrew’s Sin, What About Mars Hill’s Sin?” And “Spiritual Abuse Must Stop.” And “Mark Driscoll: Worst Pastor Ever?” The blog Marshillrefuge.blogspot.com was launched, full of stories similar to Lance’s and Andrew’s. “This,” the blog’s preamble says, “is meant to be a safe haven for those who have been wounded by their experience with Mars Hill Church.”
The woman who runs the blog is an on-fire-for-the-Lord type who tried, with her husband, to join one of Mars Hill’s new spin-off churches. They were frustrated by what they saw as demagoguery and poor leadership by the young, inexperienced men running the community groups: “EVERYTHING,” she writes, “always comes back to DOCTRINE, not JESUS.” Eventually, the couple left. Even though they had not become full-blown members, their community-group leader demanded an explanation from the husband anyway. When the husband said, in essence, it’s none of your business, he says the group leader questioned his faith in Jesus and ability to lead his family, and accused the couple of stirring up division (a common charge from Mars Hill). “We have never again heard from any of our friends from that group,” his wife writes.
Mars Hill pastor Jeff Bettger responded to queries from The Stranger about these stories with a long, heartfelt e-mail. He confirmed some of the stories, did not deny the rest, and wrote:
I personally have never known anybody at Mars Hill who would harass, blackmail, verbally abuse, or belittle ex-members. I would actually say that over the last few years Mars Hill has increasingly become more loving, kind, generous, and humble. I have been seeing this over and over from leadership at Mars Hill, and from members. We know we are not perfect, but we believe in an active God who loves us… The way God is growing this Church, I don’t believe anybody would even have the time, let alone the interest, to follow ex-members around. We have a difficult enough time maintaining all the work that needs to get done from week to week as well as meeting with all the people who want counsel and are hurting.
The Stranger attempted to contact several current members of Mars Hill, but none of them responded to requests for comment.
The music critic Chris Estey, who used to attend Mars Hill in the early days, remembers the moment he started drifting away from the church. He was walking out of one especially long-winded service by Driscoll and joking to a friend: “Hey, that guy needs an editor!” He says he was “accosted” by other churchgoers: “They were saying, ‘How dare you! He has vision and you have no idea!’ I kinda started separating then. That was the first time I’d had that culty feeling.”
Mars Hill began in the late 1990s, bouncing between apartments, parks, and spare rooms. It appealed to young people who felt out of place in other churches. By 2008, it was the 23rd-fastest-growing church in the United States, with a 38 percent bump in attendance in a single year, according to Outreach magazine. New campuses opened across the city. The Acts 29 Network, founded by Mars Hill and led by Driscoll, “planted” dozens and dozens of new churches across North America, creating a dense network of churches that are not tied to a denomination, but to Mars Hill. In 2006, Mars Hill claimed $31,110,000 in assets. (According to a church-generated report—since it’s a church, Mars Hill is not required to publicly disclose its tax returns.)
As the church grew, Driscoll became more visible, landing high-profile gigs (like an appearance on Loveline with Dr. Drew) where he drew more criticism. Also in 2006, he infamously commented on Ted Haggard’s meth-and-prostitute scandal by casting aspersions on Haggard’s wife: “A wife who lets herself go and is not sexually available to her husband in the ways that the Song of Songs is so frank about is not responsible for her husband’s sin, but she may not be helping him either.”
Around the same time, one of Mars Hill’s three cofounders suddenly left the church with little explanation and started a pizza restaurant in Redmond. Two prominent and well-liked pastors (Paul Petry and Bent Meyer) were fired during a debate over how to restructure the church—one for “displaying an unhealthy distrust in the senior leadership,” and the other for “disregarding the accepted elder protocol for the bylaw deliberation period” and “verbally attacking the lead pastor.” In other words, for not being submissive. (When contacted for this story, Petry simply said: “I don’t really have anything to add at this time.”)
The congregation was in an uproar. “That was a wild time,” says Dusty Wisniew, who has since left the church but says he still respects it. “There were tons of people asking a bunch of questions.” Driscoll answered questioners in a sermon: “Some adults are just always questioning… these are people with critical spirits. These are people that if you answer their question, they’ve got 25 more questions, and they’ll have questions forever. And it’s not that they have questions, it’s that they’re sinning through questioning. The heart is not good.”
All church memberships were suspended, Wisniew says, and people were encouraged to reapply under the new organizational structure, with new requirements—or quietly leave. One day during that period, Wisniew delivered some money from the Wedgwood campus to the Ballard campus. “All over the place, there was this poster that said ‘membership = discipleship.'” He decided not to renew his membership. He’s still close to many at Mars Hill and still admires Driscoll. But, he says, “I believe that what unites us isn’t a piece of paper. It’s the blood of Jesus.”
Last Sunday morning, a few hundred people filled the downtown branch of Mars Hill Church to hear Pastor Mark Driscoll deliver a sermon titled “Men and Marriage.” It was the third in an 11-week series based on his new book ($12.49 at Amazon.com) and DVD curriculum ($24.99 at Christianbook.com), cowritten with his wife, Grace, called Real Marriage. I attended to see if Driscoll was going address the recent storm of criticism online.
After the band played two indie-rock hymns, Pastor Driscoll appeared on a live video feed from his Ballard church. His “Men and Marriage” sermon was relatively tame: A husband should be the firm and responsible head of his household, the leader of a “little flock called home and family.” He should think of his wife as “a garden” and himself as “the gardener.” If you look at your garden and don’t like how it looks, Driscoll preaches, just remember: “You are the gardener.”
He said he knows his views are unpopular—that he’s even been called a misogynist. “And I don’t even know how to give a massage,” he joked, his eyes twinkling roguishly toward the camera that was beaming his image to 11 screens in 11 churches across the city, as well as churches in Oregon, New Mexico, and California.
The thing his sermon didn’t address—the thing I came hoping to hear about—was when submission to human authority goes too far.
Whatever the controversies, Driscoll shows nothing but confidence in himself and in the future of Mars Hill, including a plan for the next generation called “Mars Hill Kids.” “I want to start preparing our children for ministry at age 2,” he said in a video last summer. He has proposed building a “Nickelodeon-type studio” to broadcast kids’ shows and indoor play structures at every Mars Hill property to attract kids, “especially the boys, the kinesthetic learners, so they can get a little activity.” (Imagine being the gay kid—or the kid everyone thinks is gay—at that playground.)
There would be special child worship time conducted by adults and handpicked child apprentices. That cadre of children would grow up through the ranks, studying a children’s version of Doctrine, along with DVD classes and Doctrine-related homework to ensure, Driscoll says, “an integration between church and home.” Driscoll has also said he wants to commission a new illustrated children’s Bible. “Kinda cool, dark, a lot of the bloody Old Testament stories so the boys’ll like it, too,” he said on one video, winking. “We’re gonna do it Mars Hill–style.”
The point of Mars Hill Kids, Driscoll says, is continuity:
So that when the kids grow up, they don’t do like most kids and just leave after high school, but they realize: “Well, I’m ready for the Doctrine class. I can become a member. I’ve been doing this curriculum since I was 2! Of course I’m going to join a community group: I’ve been in one since I’ve been in a diaper. And I know how to sing songs, and I’m okay with video because that’s what I’ve been doing for a really long time—so I’m an old-school, 18-year-old veteran.”
What does it mean that Driscoll imagines keeping people, who’ve been studying his Doctrine from the age of 2, in Mars Hill after high school? Does he want to keep kids from growing up and moving away from Seattle to go to college, start jobs, and begin their own lives? Or does he imagine that, in 20 years, Mars Hill churches will be everywhere?
Either way, Driscoll imagines his flock—the membership model, the community groups, the Doctrine—as permanent. Womb to tomb. Just as long as you don’t ask too many questions. 
This article has been updated since its original publication.
Driscoll and Ramtha should form some sort of psychotic religious villian super team.
jesus christ!
I attended MH off and on when it was in the U Dist. I had friends that went and I wanted to stay connected to the church though my own faith was dwindling. I’d been in churches like this before and it didn’t take long to realize that it was turning into a cult of personality just like all of the churches prior did. It’s been years since I attended MH, the last time I was there Mark finished a sermon stating that questioning him was demonic. It’s a huge church and I know people don’t like being called a cult but I’d really encourage members who might read this to do some research into what a cult is, how it maintains control and do some thinking about it.
Thank you so much for writing this. It needs to be made abundantly clear that there is not one iota of difference between Mars Hill and any other fundamentalist mega-church, regardless of how they market themselves.
This is great. I hope it leads to healing for so many of the people hurt so badly at Mars Hill.
@4, That’s one of the reasons why I’m always surprised when people engage the theology of Mars Hill rather than its structure and practice. Theologically, there’s nothing new or different from hundreds of churches around the country. But the structure of the church, the aesthetics, the size, and emphases on some of those standard theological stances (rather than the stances themselves) are what sets it apart.
Is this some kind of joke? What the fuck is wrong with these “church” people and their stupid behavior? Bunch of holy twisted dipshits.
“A wife who lets herself go and is not sexually available to her husband in the ways that the Song of Songs is so frank about is not responsible for her husband’s sin, but she may not be helping him either.”
To be fair, isn’t this the same view Dan Savage has, minus the religious aspect?
Also, who could think a religious group named “Mars Hill” was anything other than a cult to begin with?
“There would be special child worship time conducted by adults and handpicked child apprentices. That cadre of children would grow up through the ranks, studying a children’s version of Doctrine, along with DVD classes and Doctrine-related homework to ensure, Driscoll says, “an integration between church and home.” Driscoll has also said he wants to commission a new illustrated children’s Bible. “Kinda cool, dark, a lot of the bloody Old Testament stories so the boys’ll like it, too,” he said on one video, winking. “We’re gonna do it Mars Hill–style.””
So, how does this not sound like mental programming?
“His ‘Men and Marriage. sermon was relatively tame: A husband should be the firm and responsible head of his household, the leader of a ‘little flock called home and family.’ He should think of his wife as ‘a garden’ and himself as ‘the gardener.’ If you look at your garden and don’t like how it looks, Driscoll preaches, just remember: ‘You are the gardener.'”
The really messed-up part is, that IS relatively tame, and it still makes me sick to my stomach. What a dreadful man.
My heart is hurting for people who have been deeply hurt by a church in my area. As a leader in a church I know that it is not hard to offend someone. As someone who goes to a church I know that it is not hard to be offended.
But the stories that I am hearing lately are too much. Church discipline is intended to ultimately be redemptive, to help people get closer to Jesus. It’s not intended to show your power or authority over your followers.
Pastors can you please take a moment to pray for the people in your area who are hurting because of church leadership. It’s not fair to those people that their image of Jesus is tarnished because of human agents.
The truth is that we are all incredibly broken people. The grace of Jesus is the only thing that helps us get our lives back together. Can we talk more about that? Can we humbly recognize our need for Jesus?
Leaders, let’s get out of the way of people who are trying to find Jesus. We are not meant to be gatekeepers of faith. We are guides. The only reason that we can guide anyone in their faith journey is because some one guided us. That person was a broken human too.
Let’s be honest.
Let’s be humble.
Let’s celebrate Jesus’ transforming love and grace.
Let’s help people walk away from sin and towards the grace that we find in the Cross of Christ.
I think that’s what people are looking for when they come to church for the first time.
Love.
Hope.
Healing.
Forgiveness.
Compassion.
Community.
We should be the best at creating environments like this because we have received all of this from Jesus in the first place.
My heart is hurting for people who have been deeply hurt by a church in my area. As a leader in a church I know that it is not hard to offend someone. As someone who goes to a church I know that it is not hard to be offended.
But the stories that I am hearing lately are too much. Church discipline is intended to ultimately be redemptive, to help people get closer to Jesus. It’s not intended to show your power or authority over your followers.
Pastors can you please take a moment to pray for the people in your area who are hurting because of church leadership. It’s not fair to those people that their image of Jesus is tarnished because of human agents.
The truth is that we are all incredibly broken people. The grace of Jesus is the only thing that helps us get our lives back together. Can we talk more about that? Can we humbly recognize our need for Jesus?
Leaders, let’s get out of the way of people who are trying to find Jesus. We are not meant to be gatekeepers of faith. We are guides. The only reason that we can guide anyone in their faith journey is because some one guided us. That person was a broken human too.
Let’s be honest.
Let’s be humble.
Let’s celebrate Jesus’ transforming love and grace.
Let’s help people walk away from sin and towards the grace that we find in the Cross of Christ.
I think that’s what people are looking for when they come to church for the first time.
Love.
Hope.
Healing.
Forgiveness.
Compassion.
Community.
We should be the best at creating environments like this because we have received all of this from Jesus in the first place.
@8 Dan Savage wouldn’t make the caveat exclusive to the female halves of the marriages.
I’m sure that all complaints about the behavior of church members will be met with the “No true Scotsman” defense.
Any church that is unwilling to face the scrutiny of questions is a church to run away from. In my mind, religion went wrong when people stopped listening to God and starting speaking on God’s behalf. Authority without accountability is not religion, it’s Fascism.
Turn off the TV, shut off the phone and sit quietly for awhile. You can connect with God without the middle man.
@8 and @13 – also, dan doesn’t put the responsiblity for the CPOS’s cheating on the spouse. driscoll draws a causal line b/w the unattractive/unavailable spouse and the cheater’s cheating. dan simply acknowledges that refusing to take care of oneself can be damaging to a sexual relationship for a whole host of reasons. but, ultimately, the cheater is always responsible for his cheating. period.
Almost all Evangelical churches hate the congregation questioning the leadership, but Dribble has been able to take that to a new level of signing contracts, cutting people off from their community, friends and families, literally demonize it, and mix it with fear of women and gays, while adding a violent sort of macho jesus into the mix. This is new higher level toxic concoction we’ve seen from other area cults similar to Mars Hill like Community Chapel (look it up, great parallel story line) and Casey Treat’s Christian Faith Center.
Brendan – thanks for staying on top of this story. It’s going to get worse. As church members get cut off from their non-church friends and families, they will completely dedicate their lives and finances to Dribble and Mars Hill, and we’ll soon get another Jonestown. Hopefully the leaders of Mars Hill won’t get the local political power that Jim Jones got. Their hate of women and homosexuals should limit that.
Where are these young Jesus lovers coming from? Are they born and raised in the northwest? It’s freaking me out they live amongst us. They could be sitting right next to you on a bus or in a restaurant. Very unsettling to think about.
I hope his wife takes good care of herself so he can resist the temptation of male prostitutes and meth.
#16, I think Dan’s position is that you owe your spouse the sex they want as long as it is within reason. If you don’t comply, the spouse has a right to seek it elsewhere, and you are somewhat to blame because you didn’t try harder. Which is what Driscoll seems to be saying, as well.
While Dan doesn’t make the distinction between male and female in terms of responsibility, the fact that something like 99% of these letters come from frustrated guys generally makes it seem like the onus is on the woman.
That guy is a fucking menace.
I googled Mark Driscoll’s pic and he’s kinda hot.. does that make me a self loathing gay man?
PastorJD, I admire your sense of compassion, but church leaders who just ‘pray about it’ and say ‘God will work it out’ are exactly the reason why Mark Driscol and those like them have been allowed to thrive. Modern Christians are cowards, and they shouldn’t be. How about you stop praying about it and start doing something about it?
Mark Driscoll has built his career on subverting the truth and hurting others. There is a new website dedicated to fact-checking him:
http://driscontinuity.tumblr.com
the pants on the guys in the picture are too “skinny” for Mars Hill. lol!
I’m a member of Mars Hill dealing with a lot of my own junk, and I have never received anything but love and help from an awesome group of people who admit that are hurting as well. I’m sorry for anyone who has been hurt, but I come from the Bible belt and was exiled for my sins. Mars Hill has taught me what the love of Jesus really looks like and how very much His grace abounds.
Thank you for the coverage Brendan, I am the husband from the husband and wife part of your article. We were only at the MH Church plant for a total of seven our eight months and with our community group for 3 or 4 months. I cannot imagine how much more difficult it can/ will be for those inside the closed system of MH for years. We ultimately want to Glorify Jesus and edify without becoming bitter, spiteful and vitriolic. That being said the CG in our circumstance had the full support of pastoral staff and used language strikingly similar to that used in Andrew’s discipline letter. I have no doubt they were running us through the channels of discipline but did not state as much to us, probably because they know I would have come unglued on them at that point. We also were very worried about telling the pastor where we planned to attend next after leaving as we were hyper aware of the possibility he would call ahead…. he said as much when I talked to him saying he wanted to “hand us off smoothly to our next church.”
There is something broken in the ecclesiastical structure of Mars Hill and until Mark is humble enough to acknowledge it and fix it, these stories will continue coming out… whether it’s a slow drip of stories or a pounding trip hammer I am not sure, but it will continue. And each one represents someone who has gone through a horrible amount of pain and suffering.
Brainwashing a child from the age of 2 is easier than disabling the kid’s bullshit detector after it has begun to form…of course they want the really young’uns! What I’m trying to figure out is why this isn’t widely regarded as developmental abuse.
You should be free to martyr your intellect on behalf of a ridiculous invisible sky-daddy of your choosing, but doing that to your child’s intellect is disgraceful. Where do the parent’s civil rights end and where does the child’s begin?
Excellent article, Brendan.
Thank you for the coverage Brendan, I am the husband from the husband and wife part of your article. You can read my take at:
http://twocleareyes.blogspot.com/2012/01…
We were only at the MH Church plant for a total of seven our eight months and with our community group for 3 or 4 months. I cannot imagine how much more difficult it can/ will be for those inside the closed system of MH for years. We ultimately want to Glorify Jesus and edify without becoming bitter, spiteful and vitriolic. That being said the CG in our circumstance had the full support of pastoral staff and used language strikingly similar to that used in Andrew’s discipline letter. I have no doubt they were running us through the channels of discipline but did not state as much to us, probably because they know I would have come unglued on them at that point. We also were very worried about telling the pastor where we planned to attend next after leaving as we were hyper aware of the possibility he would call ahead…. he said as much when I talked to him saying he wanted to “hand us off smoothly to our next church.”
There is something broken in the ecclesiastical structure of Mars Hill and until Mark is humble enough to acknowledge it and fix it, these stories will continue coming out… whether it’s a slow drip of stories or a pounding trip hammer I am not sure, but it will continue. And each one represents someone who has gone through a horrible amount of pain and suffering.
I grew up in some slightly out-there churches with some qualities in common with Mars Hill, particularly the emphasis on discipleship. They were kinder, gentler churches, often started by ex-hippies of the kind that Mark Driscoll would surely like to beat up. Anyway, these churches could still be crazy-making and manipulative and abusive, though generally in a passive-aggressive way.
What strikes me as funny is that some of the nuttier people in those churches would look at Driscoll’s hyper-masculine approach combined with the name Mars Hill, then would assume that the church is named after the Roman god of war and masculine aggression, and therefore would assume that the church is under the influence of a pagan/demonic spirit of war or something else like that.
It’s so easy to see demons behind those who disagree with you when you’ve outlawed critical thought.
Very well written look at the creepiest group in town!
Anybody remember the anabaptists?
They made aup part of the original settlers from europe to America. They were demonized and driven from europe for… wait for it… refusing to baptize newborns, claiming that they could not be saved since they could not make the decision themselves to accept jesus.
Round and round the mulberry bush…
I went to Mars Hill a few times at the invite of a coworker many years ago – when it was in that lovely (Presbyterian?) church off Marion. Everyone there seemed old to me, though there couldn’t have been many people there over mid-thirties. Someone stole my really great, really expensive-for-me sunglasses.
I kept meaning to go back but never got around to it. Looks like I dodged a bullet there. Of course, I doubt they’d have let me become a member. I always asked too many questions in Bible study. Turns out you can only go if you accept their presentation of Biblical fact and not ask about the nonsensical parts.
if you really think about it…SO many things in our culture could be classified as a “cult” democrat/republican groups, world peace groups, anti-gay and anti-war groups….it goes on forever. and I would like everyone to think about the possibility of the stranger being a cult also! Either way, EVERY organization you MUST take with a grain of salt and be weary of your involvement and ALWAYS investigate your personal involvement in it. and always remember, when you point a finger, there are 3 pointing right back at you!!
I decided to leave MH a few weeks before all this stuff came out for similar reasons. Don’t get me wrong, I still love Jesus and I plan to find a new church that doesn’t exercise extreme control over me. I feel foolish for falling into this trap but I thank God he gave me the wisdom to see what was going on. There are many at MH that truly love Jesus and serve him. I pray for all of them and I trust that God will make corrections where they need to be made.
These cults are all alike, and can be summarized by the saying (oft repeated in my former cult):
“The question mark (?) is in the shape of a serpent [the devil]. Beware the questioning mind.”
Questions about anything were discouraged, but especially those about church authority or dogma. It’s all mind control, with the consequences of ‘rebellion’ [independent thought] being hell, or the equivalent.
@35 – “But when you really think about it, isn’t *everybody* a cult maaaaaaaaan”
*GROAN*
If you’re from Mars Hill, just say so. No need to play the passive aggressive card.
And The Stranger would make a pretty ineffective cult – everybody here is disagreeing and arguing and questioning everybody else ALL. THE FREAKING. TIME.
Just making a note here, the statement “Andrew had sinned by kissing a woman who wasn’t his fiancée” indicates that Andrew cheated on his fiancée by kissing another woman, it’s not to mean that Mars Hill has a policy that a man cannot kiss a woman until they are engaged.
Gloomy Gus, Catalina Vel-Duray and I remember the Reverend Bob Moorhead sex scandal at Overlake Church back in the ’90s, don’t we, kids?
Why is The Stranger so obsessed with Mars Hill? Seems very odd to me. Yes, we get it, Seattle doesn’t believe in God. Just keep flipping until you get to the porn in the free newspaper because that is so much better for people of all ages to view than a pastor who teaches about how God is love.
Good reporting, thanks! It reminds me how much things have not changed in 2000 years. Like the reference to the Anabaptists above, the entire history of Christianity is chock full of similar stories. Not to insult anyone, but when you start to ‘Believe’ you begin a transformation into a mindless follower. Many can keep a balance between belief and rationality, a sort of suspension of disbelief, but only on Sundays. Its a day off for the rational mind. The rest of the time they can be perfectly reasonable people. As long as you can pass as one of them and your not openly gay, transgender, polyamorus, Islamic, etc. Used to be you couldn’t jewish, too, but they relaxed that once the jews stopped wearing the funny hats all the time.
Well done, Brendan. You are a treasure to this city. If there was a Genius Award for Journalism, I would nominate you, sir!
As a local church leader who is not affiliated with Marshill in any way I have a question. Can we actually trust non biased opinions to come from any of the people that were interviewed? Every person interviewed was a person that was hurt by the church in one way or another. I know Ex Marshill members who go to my church, many of which were hurt during some of these shake ups, and one thing i can say is that you can’t necessarily expect a non biased opinion from these people because of the pain they feel has been inflicted on them. Considering the Church is over 10,000 people now, I believe, if it was as bad as people say it is, shouldn’t that number be much smaller? Especially when you consider that the vast majority of those attendees are Seattle area young adults who have been taught since youth that much of the stuff Marshiil is being accused of is wrong (evil?). Yet they choose to go on their own initiative and continue to go. Despite the harsh criticism they continually get hurled at them. People just need to be honest and say the main reason many people don’t like Marshill, or any other theologically conservative evangelical church, is because they believe that what these churches teach is wrong and what they believe is right. So they accuse any other group that holds to a tradition and teaching other than their own to be dangerous and wrong to plant in the minds of people. Especially children. Even though the other side could lash back with the exact same kind of argument.
I know none of you will probably agree with what i had to say and that’s fine. But I’ll continue to minister to those who feel like they have been hurt by leaders from Marshill or whatever church, and I pray that these other churches will reciprocate the favor when people that I’m sure I will unintentionally hurt go to their Churches.
God Bless.
#44 “Considering the Church is over 10,000 people now, I believe, if it was as bad as people say it is, shouldn’t that number be much smaller?”
We’re talking about believers here. Not exactly the smartest of the bunch. The fact that they believe any of this nonsense kinda plants them firmly in the ‘poor decision-makers’ camp in the first place.
Big deal, the atheists I know are bigger control freaks.
I just fail to see why people complaign about others, whom are going about their own business.
There must be a scripture or two that deals with this issue.
I do like the rare occasion when I am asked I have found Jesus yet. Yes, I can say: “I didn’t realize he was still missing”, with a straight face.
Mars Hill Church — what a waste of time. That’s why I worship at the Church of Jessica instead:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tl7_6X9V1…
@44, I’d be surprised if that many Mars Hill members are young Seattlites who have grown up around Mars Hill. I’d bet a lot are people who have moved to Seattle and attended relatively conservative churches in their hometowns, or are from the suburbs. Could just be because most the people I know personally who go there fall into one of those two camps.
Just to clarify some things for you, Brendan. The sermon preached on Sunday was recorded before the article came out on Matthew Paul Turner’s blog. Hence, why Mark didn’t address it in the sermon Sunday.
I agree with Pastor Jeff’s quote. Also, Mark encourages attendees to educate themselves outside of MH church as well. The articles circulating in the last week have led to a lot of discussion & interpretation inside the community groups at the church, so please don’t assume we are mindless followers. The MH people I know still weigh everything the leaders say against the word of God & the discerning leadership of the Holy Spirit. It’s realizing that every quote, verse, statistic, etc. needs to be analyzed against the context to which it came from, otherwise, yes, it’s very easy to slip into ignorance.
It’s understanding that I call myself a follower of Christ & a Christian before I call myself a Mars Hill member.
Must we all be skeptics. What I’m saying is none of us is perfect. We all know even within our own homes there are misunderstandings and arguments that arise from mostly miscommunication issues. Lets be slow to judge people. About attempting to make everyone sign a contract for membership. What’s wrong with attempting to set a bar of excellence. I wander why more church’s don’t do the same.