“I‘m gonna pray first, I hope you guys don’t mind,” said Redmond pastor Ken Hutcherson at the start of a meeting he’d requested with The Stranger staff at our offices on April 22.
“Lord,” Hutcherson said, “thank you for the opportunity to express ideas and get answers.”
Hutch, as he’s known to most people, had a lot of ideas to express. Ideas about masturbation, evolution, journalism, Matthew Shepard’s “irritating” behavior, and, most important to Hutch on this day, proper sexual conduct for students at Seattle Pacific University. He felt he had to “come face-to-face” with The Stranger in order to share those ideas, and he also wanted to learn more about an article I published on March 30 titled “The Secret Sex Lives of SPU Students.”
Hutch didn’t believe I’d been fair to SPU; he thinks the majority of the school’s students are just as chaste as he—or, in Hutch’s telling, He—demands. But Hutch also expressed alarm at a possible lack of leadership at SPU that could be leading to unholy student sex (“The leadership needs to take more responsibility”), and he had a message for students at SPU who, as they recounted in their own words in “The Secret Sex Lives of SPU Students,” have been having a lot of premarital sex in direct violation of school rules.
Hutch’s message: Be more like Hutch.
“I was a renegade when it came to sex,” Hutch said of his youth. “I was the guy on campus who thought I should conquer every woman who walked by… Until I met Christ, and [then] that attitude had to change.”
The meeting with Christ happened when he was 16, Hutch said, and as soon as it occurred, he stopped having sex. Full stop. Did Hutch even allow himself to masturbate? “Thank you very much, I did not,” he said. “Can you masturbate without lusting?”
His sexless life went on for 17 years, Hutch recounted, until he was married at age 33.
“The issue was obedience,” Hutch said. “There are certain things I’m going to do and not do as a Christian, regardless of how strong my body acts. Because I have said I believe in Bible.”
What else does Hutch believe?
According to Hutch, dinosaurs and humans lived together on this planet at the same time.
“Absolutely,” Hutch said. “Pretty difficult for dinosaurs to get on the ark with Noah and not both be on the earth.”
He continued: “The earth is probably, biblically, six thousand, seven thousand years old, a young earth. And during that time, even Noah, even Adam, if you look at the Bible and the years that they lived—at the end of the antediluvian period, early antediluvian period, uh, antiquity, early antiquity—there’s man and animal. Both walked together. All the way back. Because they was created at the same time in seven days. Absolutely, baby. Isn’t it sweet?”
Uh. Okay. But back to sex: What does Hutch say about SPU students who aren’t being Hutch-like with their young bodies? Simple: “They’re sinners.”
Also a sinner in Hutch’s brain: Matthew Shepard.
“Matthew was a person who irritated a lot of people,” Hutch said, dismissing parallels between the deadly violence Shepard experienced and the violence other marginalized Americans have experienced, sometimes with the tacit approval of bigoted religious leaders.
Hutch continued with his sinner list: gay students at SPU, Stranger staffers (duh), and certain members of his own Antioch Bible Church. “Do you believe that everyone at Antioch, my church, is following all the biblical rules?” Hutch asked at one point. “No! We have to discipline people almost every year and kick ’em out when they don’t repent. Should I change the rules?”
His answer was quick and merciless: no.
While Hutch was on the subject of gay SPU students, he made clear to us that he’s unhappy with a decision made earlier this year by SPU officials to relax their own rules and allow a gay student group, Haven, to use campus meeting rooms. “If I was president, it wouldn’t have happened,” Hutch said.
Stephen Michael Newby, an associate professor of music at SPU and director of the school’s Center for Worship, joined Hutch partway through the meeting with The Stranger.
Asked about life at SPU since the publication of the article, Newby said things like “It is the community’s responsibility to be concerned for the concerns that are on the table, and that is my concern.” On Hutch’s worry that SPU leaders may be failing their students: “Perhaps we should explore having a dialogue on that.” On next steps: “I would really like to consider inviting Eli, in a room, where we can sit you down where we can have our camera and our crew around you.” Newby hoped Hutch would be there, too. After all, Newby said, Hutch is a good role model for SPU students and “a friend of the university.” 
Video on the right, you can also watch the video HERE.
Ugh, what even needs to be said? This man has so little impact on my life and the lives of my friends…. He’s an ignorant bigot, and his beliefs are going the way of the dinosaur (w/o the benefit of a boat)!
Hutch, don’t let the door hit you on the wa–… oh, fuck it.
Shame on this man who calls himself a “man of God”, yet announces to the world that “his” God hates Gay people. I’m not sure what Diety he and his parisioners pray to…but I positively know it’s not God. This man is a Self absorbed ego maniac who feeds off of media coverage to spread his poisonous spirit. I denounce this EVIL man! May God have mercy on your soul, you miserable excuse for a pastor!
I find it creepy when old guys wear nothing but jackets.
Hutch never said “his God hates gay people”
Like Hutch or hate him at least get the facts straight.
Hutch has never said “God hates Gay people”
Love Hutch or hate him at least get your facts straight.
So who’s the guy on the right?
That’s Newby.
A pair of giant sized carnivorous reptiles on a boad full of animals seems like a supremely bad idea. So does creation science explain mass extinctions in terms of “that dumb T-rex ark idea”.
I had no idea how hateful the gay community truly was until I heard their outrage over choice.
I expected a longer article – can we get access to the video?
The whole concept of “expelling” someone from a church is abhorent to me. God loves everyone, and Jesus would never turn his back on anyone who wanted to come in, sit down, and be a part of the family. It is tough to be a Christian when pastors like Hutch are spouting off – he doesn’t represent my faith!
Jaymz,
If you read through the bible thre are many instances where Jesus “expelled” those who were in sin.
You are correct in saying that Jesus would never turn His back on anyone who wanted to come be part of the family. However if one does become “part of the family” Jesus also instructed His followers in right and wrong and would not tolerate sin.
God loves us all, that’s why he died for EVERYONE. So God loves sinners (any type of sin…homosexuality or otherwise) and he died for us all. But he EXPECTS us to change when we enter a relationship with Him.
This it what bugs me about many in the gay community…trying to call people like hutch out as “haters of gays”. When really, Hutch tries to live according to the righteousness outlined in the bible and Hutch doesnt expect any of you to understand that because God is the only one that can change you…not Hutch.
It’s just his job to tell the truth and pray that God breaks into people’s lives.
Consier this verse:
John 6:44 – No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
No one can make you believe anything…or change your ways for that matter. I was like this before God got hold of me too…I hope and pray He helps some of you see the truth as well some day.
jaymz, as a result of choosing homosexual activity my son is now participating in a lifestyle that exposes him to a high probability of contracting AIDS. Where is the selflessness and sacrifice for the wellbeing of others in that?
@11: I hope in the name of flowing God’s holy word that if you have kids and they month off to you, you will.do the Biblical mandated thing and.stone them to death. And even if you don’ t have kids, I sincerely hope for your sake (and the state of your.soul) that you’be been through your closets and refrigerator with a fine-tooth comb to remove the abominations of poly/cotton clothing.and.prawns, respectively. Or are you in Satan’s thrall too?
Okay, well if the brontosauri were on the Ark too, then it had to be waaaay bigger than I imagined. I mean, seriously, it had to have like, 100 times bigger than an aircraft carrier. How do you keep a brontosaurus in its pen when it gets restless?
@12 I feel very sorry for your son. Because he has you as a parent.
Jaymz, if you choose to be part of a church like that, you choose to be at risk of being expelled over random interpretations of morality. It’s one of many reasons why mainstream and liberal churches exist.
I will only address the doubters of dinosaurts on the Ark… No where in the account of Noah and the Ark does it state that the animals taken onto the Ark were full grown, adult animals. Eggs travel, quite nicely as it turns out.
Hutch doesn’t hate gays nor does God. Same Sex attraction is not a sin, it is a disordered attraction. The attraction by itself is not a sin, but if acted upon that is a sin.
Homosexual activity as described in the New Testament and Old Testament is severely against God’s will and you will not enter Heaven if you persist in this disordered behavior.
We all have many crosses. For some it is same sex attraction, for others it is anger issues, others it is drinking too much alcohol or any action that goes against God’s will.
All homosexuals will inherit Heaven if they believe and accept Jesus Christ as their savior and repent from their sins. If they do not repent, there is no salvation. God respects our free will. We choose Heaven or Hell by our actions. God doesn’t send anyone to Hell, but we by our actions against God send ourselves to Hell.
To the doubters of dinosaurs on the Ark:
No where in the accounts of Noah and the Ark does it state that the animals were full grown, mature animals. Eggs travel quite nicely, not to mention compactly.
As a Christian I do believe the earth is millions and millions of years old, and I also believe the Bible does not count days from a chronological sense as we count them today.
So much hatred against Hutch or any Christian who holds God’s views. For all you gays out there who have AIDS, the vast majority of Gay men who have aids would not be alive if it were not for the thousands of Christian volunteers who donate countless hours serving them in Hospitals. Last year, I personally logged over 100 hours of service to AIDS patients alone. Christians dominate the service to AIDS patients, Cancer Patients, Homeless, single mothers who need help. We provide food, clothing, medical help, counseling and temporary housing to those in needs.
Without us Christians and our strong faith in Christ to serve others, millions of people would be without the basic neccessities of life.
Stop the hatred and increase love despite our differences. Our views do not come from hate, but from a God who loves you and wants the best for your lives, and we have free choice to choose our own path or God’s path for our life. With His path, we will gain Heaven. With your own path, you will not.
How does one tell a female dinosaur egg from a male dinosaur egg? In order to ensure they had one of each. Just asking?
@12 That’s the most ungenerous, uneducated, hateful thing I’ve heard a “person” say in quite some time. He’s your son, dude!
You need to get educated. First of all, being in a different group as far as health *statistics* does not reflect on one’s ethical makeup. Also, who you’re attracted to is not a choice. You know this, because your attractions were not choices either, right?
So, get to studying and also hang out with him to try to feel more comfortable and understand things better. He’s done nothing wrong; it’s up to you to do the work on YOUR feelings of discomfort. OK, dad? Go be a dad. And use PFLAG to talk to other dads with gay sons:
http://community.pflag.org/Page.aspx?pid…
Sigh. I know this is hard, but some people do not believe in the existence of God. They aren’t mad at some Christian, they didn’t have a terrible experience at a church. They just don’t believe. Perhaps they think it is lunacy? To many of those individuals religion is something to be kept private and thus the enthusiasm of some to “witness” is obnoxious and frustrating, that is stating it mildly. They wish to be left alone. They wish that their lack of hospitality for evangelical witness would garnish the shaking the dust off of the evangelist’s feet. It is Biblical after all. It is best to take your opinion or “message” to those who wish to hear it, and stop insisting that actions that appear un-loving to one’s neighbor are loving because you believe them to be. They aren’t loving, because actions speak louder than words. They don’t see the love.
That said, thank you for sharing your opinions or “messages”.
@20.. well well well..it’s nice to know that all my dead friends had loving christians that fed them, clothed them, visitesd them and comforted them..
..except most of my dead friends – and i’ve had way too many – didn’t . most of my dead friends were rejected from their christian families and their christian churches. some of them suffered and died rejected terribly alone. i’ve known aids patients that doctors wouldn’t see. i’ve known aids patients that lost their jobs and their homes. i know of aids patients that were denied visits from their partners. i’ve had three die in my family. all brothers. the first in a room in a flophouse in ny. the second mysteriously in d.c. and the third. well he couldn’t tell his mother what he had. at his funeral service no one was allowed to eulogize him lest some one slip and spill his secret.
the church was as late to the service of aids patients as our politicians were.
and even today the loudest judgement of gays comes not from buddhists,jews,agnostics or atheists but christians. chirstians don’t want us to marry, christians picket our funerals, christians don’t want us to teach children – theirs or ours. it’s american christian missionaries and evangelicals that fan the fire of homophobia abroad.. even unto the death of gays .i won’t even get into how many gays still suffer silently within the church, how gays within the church endure vociferous condemnation from the pulpit. i know some personally. my own pastor never condemned anyone except gays. and again from the pulpit and never lost any respect doing so.
frankly i think you ought to be ashamed. to list your services. to suggest that anyone owes you gratitude sounds haughty and full of pride. your last sentence reeks of condemnation and judggement.
and i say this as a christian who believes that the strongest love of humankind, which we are commanded to do, involves empathy, compassion, humility, tireless often thankless service,and, much much more often than not, silence.
@24, tell it, brother. Would love to hear you and Hutch go one-on-one.
Amen, brother riz, amen. you said it so beautifully.
and @12 is a troll.
As a bisexual man who mostly prefers the company of men to women, I find Ken Hutcherson hilarious. Unfortunately, he has some influence.
@24, Thank you.
@20, Actually, the Earth is billions and billions of years old, not millions and millions.
@ 20. Why don’t we thank the DOCTORS and the SCIENTISTS who advanced medicine to he point where people can survive with a disease as terrible as AIDS?
Thanks goodness they didn’t stop at studying the Bible and just pray for people to get better. Thank goodness they didn’t just LOVE away the virus… and all the other maladies that kill people everyday. Why is it so hard for people who believe in the Bible and God to see that the stuff people were wrong about 100 years ago is the same stuff people are wrong about today. The earth is not the center of the universe. The world is not 6000 years old. Acting on homosexuality is not a sin. All those qualifying details in the Bible probably aren’t even translated correctly from the original text. THINK.
What will the next generations of Christians hang on to?
And Paster Hutch, and all who think the earth is 6000 years old… If you don’t believe in radiogenic dating (which is what the earth’s age, the lifespan of the dinosaurs, and the appearance of humans in the fossil record), if you don’t believe in that use of radiogenic isotopes, then;
1. You don’t believe in X-RAYS.
2. You don’t believe in radiology.
3. You don’t believe in chemotherapy.
Be sure to inform your doctor of these facts when you get cancer, or break a leg, or have a perforated colon one day. They can gladly refer you somewhere that uses more godly technology.
#19…so, you’re saying the big argument among Noah’s sons each day was about who had to hatch the brontesaurus eggs?
Also…if the dinos survived the flood, shouldn’t they be here NOW? I don’t remember any mentions of velociraptors in the Gospels, let alone having seen any at the local game preserve.
Sorry, Eli, but this was really, really lame. You just went for the cheap shots (dinosaurs? come on).
Why not try to seriously engage Hutch on his own ground?
Ask him how he can celebrate Rush Limbaugh’s fourth marriage when Jesus specifically condemns remarriage as adultery?
Speaking of which, adultery is one of the ten commandments–you’d think Hutch could keep track of them. Ask him to quote what Jesus said about homosexuality (hint: nothing).
Ask him why, if Jesus was so concerned about rich people not getting into heaven, Hutch focuses his ministry on stigmatizing gays rather than stigmatizing the rich.
Ask him which of the laws in Leviticus his congregation is expected to follow, which they can ignore, and why.
Ask him why the most fundamentalist Christian cultures (South Africa and the southern United States) are the most racist.
Ask him, if the Bible is literally true, which came first, plants (Genesis 1) or humans (Genesis 2).
So many missed opportunities. All so you can be snarky about sex. He played you well.
Great. Another dumbass christian spouting his idiotic beliefs. Just what the world needed.
@18, you’re wrong. For Christians, even without acting on the attraction, it is a sin to have the lust in your heart.
Rev. Hutchinson is a poor representative of Christ. Not just because his science stinks and he’s full of bigotry, but because he doesn’t really understand his own theology.
He makes a number of basic errors, starting with the presumption that the Bible should be taken literally. It is allegorical. Hello! Christ spoke and taught in parables. Second, he picks and chooses which biblical laws he will follow and which he will discard – which is fine except that he denies others the same privilege.
Worst of all he neglects the primary teaching of the Christian faith: that we are ALL sinners and that only through acceptance of the unconditional love and sacrifice of Jesus can we be redeemed to a state of Grace and be worthy of everlasting life in heaven.
The goal is not to stop sinning – that’s impossible. This is the truth that Jesus taught – you can’t stop sinning because you have the impulse in you and the impulse by itself is a sin. Therefore, it is only through the sacrifice of Jesus – and the acceptance of that sacrifice – that people can be saved. The goal is for people to acknowledge their sin and to accept Jesus. The key is for people in Rev. Hutchinson’s role to welcome people unconditionally and guide them along the path of accepting the unconditional love and sacrifice of the saviour – not to pick and choose for himself who is worthy and who is not.
I’m not even a Christian and I know this. He’s sadly misguided.
@ #13
Read the verse in my post John 6:44. You prove that verse perfectly with your uneducated comments.
The reason we don’t stone people to death in this day and age for certain sins is because the old testament law is no longer in use today since Jesus Christ ushered in the new era of Grace.
If you were caught in homosexual behavior back in old testament times a death by stoning would have been the outcome…but not in our world today and you should be thankful for that.
God has grace and patience and he wants you to know His love, which is the only love that satisfies.
But if God hasnt opened your eyses yet then it will be impossible for you to see…I pray he does some day.
Also to those who say “well I was born with this attraction to same sex etc etc” Well I AGREE! God made you that way and some people have different likes/dislikes etc. But that doesnt mean its right to act on it! God wants you to rely on Him to take care of all your needs.
For instance, I was born with a VERY STRONG desire to have sex with beautiful women. But I don’t ACT on that desire because I know it would not please God to do so. Therefore I CONTROL myself and pray and let God take care of me when the urges get overwhelmingly strong.
Some people have a strong desire to grab a gun and shoot people at random…heck they were “born” with it!!! Well, it’s a sin to go shooting people for no reason and God expects us to control our sinful desires.
@35
I agree with you about coming to christ and getting unconditional forgiveness and that we are all sinners.
But once you become a christian don’t you think Christ wants you to change your ways if some of the things you were doing before you accepted His forgiveness were sin?
I used to drink alot and get drunk before I came to know Jesus. Afterwards it was a struggle and I didnt just change overnight…but I did change…and I was growing and eventually I kicked that habit. Now I dont get drunk anymore.
Likewise Christ expects you to change your ways as well once you accept him as savior. All of us sin, and we will continue to do so even after we become christians. The key is as christians we are constantly seeking forgiveness when we do sin, and constantly working on avoiding sin and getting rid of habitual sin. This is what Christ calls us to do. Consider these verses:
1 John 2:4
1 John 2:6
So if you think that you can accept Jesus Christ and then just keep on sinning I think you are fooling yourself. If you actually have accepted Christ you are losing many blessings and rewards by continuing to sin and not try to change.
Just to clarify on my post #36, I am a married man so God expects me to have sex with my wife and only my wife. Thus I am expected to not act on the desires I still have to engage with other women.
Just because I am a Christian it does not mean I am free from the desire to sin. I just try to make the right decisions when presented with the opportunity to sin. Sometimes I fail, and thankfully I can ask God to forgive me and I can keep striving to grow and sin less and less.
Jesus never fucking existed. End of story. You all can keep arguing with these christ-tards if you want, but its the same as trying to convince the legions of teenage tarts that vampires don’t exist and no, edward does not want to fuck you.
@38..
i’m a married man and god expects me to have sex with my husband and only my husband. that’s a struggle i can work with.
I think we are looking at a picture of the proverbial “missing link”… proof that there is such thing as evolution… or arrested development… or whatever…
SPAM ALERT ON AISLES 42 AND 43! SPAM ALERT ON AISLES 42 AND 43!!!!
@36: “Also to those who say ‘well I was born with this attraction to same sex etc etc’ Well I AGREE! God made you that way and some people have different likes/dislikes etc. But that doesnt mean its right to act on it!”
Let’s break this down:
1. God made gay people gay.
2. If gay people engage in gay behaviour – if they act in accordance with how God made them – God will punish them with eternal hellfire.
Dude, your God sounds like a fucking asshole.
P.S. I think Hutcherson’s alleged self imposed celibacy/abstinence wasn’t as self imposed as he is letting on… I mean- hell, look at him… Who would wanna have s(intimate relations)x with THAT?!!!
People like Hutcherson literally have nothing of value to contribute to adult conversation. I’m confused why media outlets continue to offer him and other bigoted, sado-masochists like him a platform. Really, the guy didn’t even masturbate for 17 years? Why even take a meeting with him, let alone publish a story about it. Doesn’t this guy have a whole church full of idiots to infantalize? I didn’t learn anything from this interview that I couldn’t have extrapolated simply by knowing his type.
@35 Charlie Mas, best post so far. Thank you for calmly and rationally setting it straight. The fact that you aren’t a Christian speaks to an ugly (but apparently frequently true) assumption I’ve had for quite some time…that for many people, their overt attempts to embrace an organized theology tend to end up warping their brains and actually magnify the worst aspects of their own personalities.
@45
Do I know why God did what he did? no…
He made me the way I am too and I could choose to use that as an exuse to sin but I try not to.
I know you wont understand this because you can’t at this point but I will say it anyway…
I believe God made us the way He did…and God allowed sin to come into the world so that we would learn that:
A. We need God – If we have free reign just to follow our feelings then we have no need for God.
B. God uses our sin and imperfections to prove to us that we need Him. In fact there is no way to get out from under the power of sin without God.
Bottom line for me is this:
Just because it feels good doesnt make it right. Who are we to be able to know what is right and what is wrong? If I just did things based on how I “feel” at the time I would have murdered all my co-workers at one point or another 😛
The bible is the final authority on what is right and what is wrong.
I know this sounds narrow minded and tough to understand…see john 6:44…so I dont expect you to understand it until Got allows you to.
@49: A loving God would not treat His creations the way that many Christians seem to think He does. He would not curse so many of His children with temptations towards sin and then punish them when they fail to resist the urges He has given them.
Your God is a trickster and a psychopath. “I’ll show them how much they need me; I’ll make them love me!”
I don’t need God to tell me not to lie, cheat, steal, or kill; or to tell me to be fair and just in my dealings. I just need love and compassion for my fellow human beings.
I know this sounds open-minded and tough to understand, so I don’t expect you to. Just stick to your book and let it tell you what is right and what is wrong; it is probably easier that way.
Well, this is a completely useless article. Wouldn’t it have been more interesting to try to look for common ground? Or to get a sense for Hutch as a human being? Or to make any attempt at all to surprise us? The only information conveyed by this article is that Hutchison is a fundie and the Stranger holds him in contempt, which is not new information. You’ve written interestingly an insightfully before, Eli, why not now?
@17
Wow, I actually did a spit take. That was hilarious!
Mental illness is sad.
@50
I like to debate so no hurt feelings here…but to your points:
Man brought sin into the world so all of the pain and hurt and misunderstanding we endure in this day and age is our fault.
God loved me and you so much that he sent His son to die a brutal death so that we would have a way to regain eternal communion with Him.
This communion can only be achieved by a choice you make…so although God can do many things, he won’t make you accept his free offering of redemption through Jesus.
You state “I just need love and compassion for my fellow human beings.”
I would argue that I am showing love to you right now by sharing who Jesus Christ is and what He did for you. You dont agree with this and only God can change your heart on the matter john 6:44 again.
You also state: “Just stick to your book and let it tell you what is right and what is wrong; it is probably easier that way.”
And I agree 100% and I am thankful that it’s easy…why would some want to make t so difficult?
@50
One last thing…in your opening statement you say “God would not curse his children”
Read Genesis and you will see that God did curse us after we sinned. We are still living with that curse right now…but the good news is there is a way out per my previous post.
There are many things I dont understand about God either…but if it were possible to understand God fully then we would be God ourselves…consider this verse:
As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Isaiah 55:9
@21 The girl eggs are pink and the boy eggs are blue. Derrrr. 🙂
@56-58: Worst. ASCII art. Ever.
@54
“Rarely do we find men who willingly engage in hard, solid thinking. There is an almost universal quest for easy answers and half-baked solutions. Nothing pains some people more than having to think.” – Martin Luther King, Jr.
“It is easy to hate and it is difficult to love. This is how the whole scheme of things works. All good things are difficult to achieve; and bad things are very easy to get.” – Confuscius
“Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you’d have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion.” – Steven Weinberg
I’ll say this much, I do believe in God and God’s love. But my beliefs are my own. You may say that
But the rest of us? Those of us that have made the more difficult choice to think for ourselves? What we see you doing is using guilt, fear, and coercion in an utterly futile and puerile attempt to make us think the way you do.
The Bible, which you may say is the final authority, was written by men half a century after Christ’s death. And as far as I’m concerned, men are fallible.
And the men I’ve quoted? I have much more respect for them, because they don’t have to turn to any source outside of themselves (like a big fat book) to know right from wrong, and they don’t have to turn to coercion and fear to gain my respect.
God dwells within us. So maybe for some it’s God, for others it’s Nirvana, for others it’s the Universe or Destiny, and for the rest it’s just basic human decency, but we don’t need you or the Bible dictating to us what right and wrong are.
Jesus was a cool dude. I can absolutely get behind his preachings without accepting him as my lord and savior, and you know why? Because all the stuff about loving thy neighbor, I figured out on my own. You, on the other hand? Boy howdy, if it takes brainwashing with a Bible to keep you from murdering your coworkers, then I guess I’m glad that all we have to put up with from you is a little trolling and some arrogant evangelizing.
Wow Eli, I didn’t think you could sink to a worse journalistic low after the SPU sex article, but you just did. Dropped the ball, missed the boat. You could have presented some thought- and discussion-provoking material for us, but nope, you opted for the cheap shots and predictable sensationalist crap that I liked to think writers at The Stranger were rising above in recent years. Yes, Hutcherson has a few screws loose and I’d have a hard time restraining myself from removing a few of his teeth if I were in the same room, but wow, was the hour-long conversation really that void of substance? And what the hell is your obsession with SPU? When I went there 15 years ago, I was surprised that nearly every prof I had spoke out clearly on behalf of gay & lesbian people. You had to go and pick one wingnut who supports your case…. pretty shoddy reporting, Eli.
My gratitude and respect go out to Rev. Riz, who wrote a moving response (#24) to some of the heartless “Christian” zombies giving the same line that I used to give regarding AIDS. I was deeply involved in that religious scene in the early 80’s, and I can say that the response to AIDS was far more “I told ya so!” than it was a compassionate one. This has changed in a large way since then, to be fair, and I like to think that the dinosaur Hutcherson speaks for a nearly-extinct species. Whatever the case, I hope this is the last I have to hear from him, because I’ve had about all I can take.
@54
It’s alright, I know most of my evangelizing is futile. I am under no pressure to make you think like me, the way you think is your choice and I am not going to convince you otherwise. Only God can change minds…and that truly is a miracle.
I just try to share the truth and you can take it or leave it, I dont hate you or despise you, I just dont agree with you.
As for me, I will trust in God and His word, as for you…good luck with trusting only yourself and the few other humans you have put your faith in.
above I meant @61!
gah…cant edit responses ;P
@number 2, you said “The bible is the final authority on what is right and what is wrong.”
Would that be the earliest writings from 100 a.d. or so? In ancient Hebrew or Aramaic or whatever language they were originally written in? Are you fluent in that language? Were any writings lost? Which translation is the the most accurate throughout the centuries, throughout the millennia? The Greek translations? The Latin translations? The middle English translations? Or are the earliest ones the most accurate? Or is the one you read the most accurate? Are the translations of the Bible, and the writings that got included in the Bible, really what Jesus said, and perfectly translated and free of adulterations over the course of 2000 years? Is the Bible being modified even in the present day?
Society will improve when leftist newspapers finally learn to stop writing articles about crazy, idiotic conservatives like Sarah Palin, the WBC, and this guy.
You are just giving him attention, Eli! Psychologists agree that people only change their behavior based on rewards (they will repeat the behavior that earned the reward), and that ignorance is more effective than punishment in discouraging bad behavior. You have just rewarded this Hutch guy with attention.
@MacGruber
That is a very good question, and one that I have questioned greatly myself. I realize that putting ones compete faith in something is a big deal and should not be taken lightly.
Let’s consider this verse:
2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness
In my research/study of this very subject (it’s an important one) when I was a young believer I considered the above verse (and others) while trying to prove that the bible was just a storybook written by man.
While I am unable to prove physically that the bible is the true inspired word of God, there are a few things that greatly influenced me and helped me come to my own conclusion.
1. First of all you must have some measure of faith to believe what God said is true about the bible. This is the part most people get hung up on but if you think about it you have faith in things you can’t prove all the time.
For instance, others have said (in previous posts) that the earth is billions of years old. Well they can’t prove that…in essence they are placing their faith in some information that they have heard or seen and thus their “belief” is that the earth is billions of years old. But nobody alive today was there to see the earth’s first moments so it is completely unprovable. Even the scientists who claim this have made “assumptions” that they really can’t prove…so in essence evolution is just another religion that you cannot prove to me.
In the same manner I cannot prove that God created the earth in 6 days since I was not there, so a measure of faith must be exercised by a person believing in God or evolution, or any other religion etc. etc.
2. In my research on the subject I have found that the bible was written by 40 different authors over a 1500 year span of time. I believe God worked through those men and allowed them to write His words in their own style but ultimately God in His wisdom completely controlled what got into the bible and what didn’t…what got canonized and what didn’t etc. In a nutshell I believe that God used men as His instruments to get His word into a book but also had complete control of its contents.
I have traveled to Israel and seen the book of Isaiah on display at the museum there. What is incredible about this is it was found in modern times but nearly matches WORD FOR WORD the bibles that we have had in our hands for centuries. I encourage you to research this yourself as there is much information on this topic alone.
Yes three are many translations of the bible out there and some of the more modern ones I would question…especially ones that have changed the text to be “more readable” etc. etc. So one must be careful which translation to read as man is always messing with things and can mess it up. Thankfully there are enough good translations in circulation today that you can find one to read along with other tools to help with your understanding of the text. I always encourage people to get other resources (ancient language translators, concordance, many different bible translations for comparison etc.) to help them study the bible more effectively.
3. The bible is the only book that I know of that is completely unselfish and not about man but about God.
When I pondered the entirety of the bible a very unique revelation came to me that you too can ponder:
How could man have written the bible? It is not possible! Why? The bible tells the story of God alone…and His son who did things for us that we cannot even understand or even conjure up. If man wrote the bible there would certainly be more in there about man and how great man is. If men wrote the bible don’t you think there would be more in there about how awesome we are? Or more about the heroic deeds of men and how we figured it all out? But there’s not…the book is about God, and tells a story about how man was HELPLESS and that God did something for mankind that man could not do for himself.
This is terribly long winded but consider this final verse:
Isaiah 53:10
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
If you really ponder this verse you will see that it is really incomprehensible to mere man. How could ANYONE be pleased to give their only son up to a brutal death to save a wretched people that don’t deserve saving. Take that a step further and you see that God did this for ALL of us even those that will never come to him and will continue to spit in his face. As a man I couldn’t do it…I could NEVER be pleased to watch my son die a 3 hour death on a cross for someone that murdered my wife.
This is what God did for us!!!
How could ANY man come up with that story??!! I am convinced that the bible is straight from God. There is much more to discuss about this…I tried my best to hit some of the main points. I appreciate that you are asking an intelligent question rather than insulting me etc.
Again consider this verse:
As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Isaiah 55:9
@MacGruber
Forgot to mention one of the other mojor factors for my belief in the bible…
The prophesies that are coming true as we speak!
I wont be long winded but consider this:
The bible was written centuries ago but has predicted correctly what we are going through today for instance:
1. The Bible talks about a one world government in th end times
2. The Bible talks about moving to a one world currency in the end times
3. The bible talks about a cashless society in the end times
4. The Bible says there will be disasters/wars and an increase in earthquakes in the end times.
Take number 4 for example…
With our modern instruments we can even see the dramatic increase in earthquakes worldwide from 1990 until now.
You can just read the news and see that the world is moving to one central government and we are moving to a central currency.
And you can see that with credit cads, ATM’s etc. etc. that a cashless society is not far from reality.
All these things were in the bible a century ago before people could even understand some of these concepts…but we are LIVING in it right now!!
I’d be happy to provide verses for some of the above…and theres more!!! Trying to keep this post short winded 😛
Endless virtual debates of religion are pointless. Go do something useful with your time. Nobody is going to change anyone else’s mind. Jesus.
@69
You are correct, I can’t change anyone’s mind, but God can, and maybe God will use this “pointless” conversation to work miracles. Plus I see conversations like this differently than you. Where you see them as pointless, I see them as important as life and death itself.
@67: “Even the scientists who claim this have made ‘assumptions’ that they really can’t prove…so in essence evolution is just another religion that you cannot prove to me.”
Please read this before you make such a ridiculous claim in the future.
@71
Not sure I get your point…reading that does not make my statement “rediculous” at all.
Are you implying that science and it’s methods are to be trusted 100% and that science has answers for everything?
While I feel that science is wonderful and much of it actually proves the bible rather than contradicts it there is no way I believe that science has all the answers.
I like talking about science…here’s something to ponder:
Many scientists look at the Grand Canyon and say that it proves the earth is billions of years old due to the many many layers of sediment/fossils etc. And that it would take billions of years for water to create such a vast/deep canyon such as this.
Well…interestingly enough we have a great example of this in our own backyard. Mt St Helens blew up and within HOURS rushing water and debris cut canyons into the earth that some scientists would have claimed to be impossible.
So…couldn’t it be plausible that the great flood of Noah’s time may have been able to cut the Grand Canyon out within a couple years? Wouldnt this also explain some of the fossils they have found far inland that are sea creatures?
Anyway, this is a big discussion…so I offer just a morsel of food for thought.
@72: Yes it does. Read it again.
Here’s one of the key points regarding the scientific method:
“If the hypothesis is truly scientific, it should be possible to design an experiment to test it. An experiment should be able to tell the scientist if the hypothesis is wrong; it may not tell him or her if the hypothesis is right.”
This is the fundamental difference between science and religion: Scientific hypotheses can be tested and disproven. There are no tests of religious tenets. Nothing can be disproven, as any evidence that might disprove a religious tenet can be hand-waved away by saying “God did it.”
Science takes nothing on faith and assumes nothing is proven. All science claims to do is present a working hypothesis that explains, in scientific terms, how something works, and that has not yet been disproven.
“Is it plausible that the great flood of Noah’s time cut the Grand Canyon?” is not a scientific question – I might well ask “Is it plausible that the Grand Canyon was excavated by magic dwarves?” It cannot be disproven.
In contrast, all the current scientific explanations for the Grand Canyon, and for inland fossils of sea creatures, are based on scientific hypotheses that are testable and disprovable. For example.
This is The Hutch. I guess we can all agree that since the article and video has come out all have talked about God and the Bible. So I can say to all of you, you will have no excuse when you stand before God face to face. Can I get an aman?
@74
I see where you are going.
With the subject matter at hand, things like the origin of the universe or the birth of planet earth there is no way to prove or disprove this since no one was there to observe or record these events.
Yet I have talked personally with scientists that have told me evolution is FACT, and the big bang is FACT when in reality there is NO scientific method or process (as you have stated above) to prove these supposed facts.
Therefore to me anyone who claims things like evolution is fact, and the big bang is fact is really practicing their religion.
With provable/testable phenomena such as gravity, I completely agree with you. But with what we are talking about weather you believe in the big bang or God’s creation…it’s a religion (or call it what you will but it’s not provable).
So as we discuss these unprovable topics, I find it fair that each side present their thoughts/evidence/beliefs with as much factual information as possible and we have great things to ponder.
Your statement about me being ridiculous would be true if I were challenging gravity for instance…but not Evolution, or the origin of our planet.
@76: Gravity and the origin of the earth are intimately connected. For that matter, gravity and the origin of the universe are intimately connected.
Scientists will sometimes talk of facts as a shorthand for “the theory has been tested and is robust; the evidence in support of the theory is overwhelming; the current explanation has not been disproven and is not in any way likely to be disproven.” The scientific method has been used to demonstrate that theories such as evolution and the Big Bang are true beyond all reasonable doubt. There are still parts of biology and cosmology that these theories do not fully explain, or course, and these areas are the subject of ongoing research. But to be clear: the theory of evolution is not in any real scientific doubt.
But at the end of the day, science does admit the possibility that today’s theory may be tomorrow’s mistake. (Though in truth, what typically happens is today’s theory becomes tomorrow’s special case; for example classical physics which was not so much proven wrong as it was proven inaccurate in the case of very small sizes or very fast speeds.)
This can be contrasted with religion, which does not admit the possibility of doubt and which cannot be tested. If my wife falls sick and I pray that she is healed, if she recovers it cannot be disproven that her recovery is a result of my prayer. And if she does not recover, that doesn’t disprove the efficacy of prayer either. Perhaps my prayer was not sufficiently sincere. Or perhaps God’s plan for me, or for her, required her to not recover. There is no test – there is only faith.
@76
Here is where we differ and where this discussion possibly reaches it’s logical conclusion:
I believe it takes more faith to believe what scientists say about the orgin of our planet than it does to believe in what God has revealed to His creation through the Bible.
Judging by your final statement about God and religeon – “there is no test – there is only faith” How do you feel about my post #68?
Is it not strange to you that a book written thousands of years ago could be correct about what we are experiencing in the world today? Only God knows the future so it would make sense that the Bible be spot on with the world events it speaks of. And remember the writings in the bible have been available for centuries…far before the economic/technical revolution.
To me these types of things are facts that cannot be swept under the carpet.
@ 77 i meant above ha ha!!
@74–are you implying that the Grand Canyon was NOT excavated by magic dwarves? Though it is sad that since Noah had used up all the room on his boat with those silly dinosaurs, there wasn’t enough room for the magic dwarves and they all drowned in the great flood. Until god sent the rainbow, so Noah could find its end and swipe the pot of leprauchan gold, thus further postponing the end of the world because, lo, there was cash, and it was good.
@ 68, 78
Hey, good for you (and B.Bomber) for having a civil discussion. I’d like to pick up your question, going back to 68.
All sort of ancient texts foretell prophecies and quite a few of them seem valid. But, upon closer study, we can see that the statements made about the future are vague enough to be applied to many different moments in history. This is an issue of perspective, and studying history (and literature) might do some good in noticing how these predictions manage to remain convincing after thousands of years. However, one major obstacle is in assuming the Bible is inerrant. This goes back to the difference between science and religion, you both commented on. Saying the Bible’s prophecies are obviously true shows a sort of bias that cannot exist within an honest discussion about actual truth. Why? Because the moment it is suggested that the Bible is not completely true, any more statements from this point of view are labeled.
I’ll take all of your points:
1. One world government…as far as I know, as imperialistic as “the West” is, there is no government that controls the entire world. Also, I would think the manner in which people saw the expansion of Ancient Rome seemed more like a one world government then anything we have now, considering that was most of the “known” world. If you’d like to debate this point, please let me know what one world government you think controls the earth in present time.
2. There is not one currency. Dollars, Yen, Euros, etc.
3. Please cite the verse a “cashless” society is mentioned. Bartering occurred throughout history, and I’m more prone to believe that’s what the writer was referring to, rather than my amex.
4. Disasters and Wars…pretty vague. Despite how it seems from watching the news, we have fewer wars, globally, now then in the past. They are generally less bloody and because of mass media, such atrocities cannot go unnoticed for long. This doesn’t stop people from killing each other, but in many areas dictators and warmongers can’t operate on their every psychotic whim because of the reaction of the rest of the world. I’m not saying this stops every dictator or that every conflict results in less death, just on average, humanity is learning from its mistakes.
However, even if any of these made a more convincing argument, they are not accurate enough to accept (unless you already believe the Bible to be 100% true)as prophecy. If the prophet had described the inner workings of an ATM machine, that would be something solid. If they had pin pointed the exact time and date and nature of a disaster, that would be another valuable bit of evidence. Does it mean anything to you that your exact argument has been made by Christians of every generation, starting with the forming of the church? Even the original 12 disciples believed, or at least assumed, that the “end times” were to occur within their lifetime.
Sorry for being long-winded, kind of a large topic.
@81
Thanks, thats a great reply. I will gather some of my notes and write a proper response when I have more time (probably tomorrow morning).
For now I can offer this:
In the old testament the Bible made hundreds of prophecies to very detailed events all of which have come to pass.
I would suspect you wont accept these because you would argue that someone changed the new testament to match the prophecies written in the old. Although through science we can prove that the old testament was written long before the new testament. What do you think about that?
I will find more modern world examples and present them tomorrow. I for one am very interested in this subject so I dont mind digging up my research.
Long live civil discussions!
Eli-you should check out N.T. Wright’s latest work entitled After You Believe: Why Christian Character Matters, the third in a series, preceded by Simply Christian and Surprised by Hope. Whenever there is a new release by N.T. Wright, the content is guaranteed to be both substantive and challenging. You need to be challenged in your thinking
While I generally ascribe to the reformed theological tradition, Wright comes from both an Anglican background as well as embracing the “new perspective” on Paul that seeks to relegate “works of the law” to ethnic exclusivity. Additionally, while he does passingly affirm the penal substitutionary view, he tends to emphasize the Christus Victor motif of the atonement.
Thus, in reviewing this book I must simultaneously affirm these soteriological and ecclesiological differences as well as seek to find areas of agreement, and I’m pleased to say that I found much to appreciate not only in Wright’s usual debonair literary style, but also his lucid articulation of the call to Christian character. Good luck baby!
@83
Holy smokes, those are some long words…time to break out the dictionary )
@78: “I believe it takes more faith to believe what scientists say about the orgin of our planet than it does to believe in what God has revealed to His creation through the Bible.”
Then I must say, with respect, that you clearly are very poorly informed as to the current state of earth sciences, cosmology, and, well, pretty much everything. It takes me no faith whatsoever to believe what I have been taught about the origin of our planet; it takes an understanding of high school physics and biology, and an open mind.
Your post @68 is unconvincing. I suggest you take some time to learn about confirmation bias, as well as a few other pertinent logical fallacies. I have read the Bible, cover to cover, more than once. I have heard countless sermons on its lessons and I have studied parts of it closely. Having done so, I know that it is a long book full of inconsistencies and internal contradictions. It can be read in many ways to justify and support many conclusions – just look at the vast range of religious belief and practice that falls under the heading “Christianity”, all of which claim to be divinely inspired by the Bible.
There are a wide range of Biblical prophecies which have from time to time been interpreted to mean different – sometimes inconsistent – things. As @81 points out, your interpretation of certain Biblical prophecies is not that convincing.
And, again, none of what is said to be true in these prophecies is falsfiable. The history of Christianity is full of those who have propeshied that the End Times are coming, complete with predictions of the exact hour and date. When the time has come and passed, no one said “Well, so much for Christianity then; theory disproven.” They just went back to the Bible and pulled out another hour and date.
@85
No doubt throughout history and today there are people who use Christianity wrongly to prove a point or justify their actions.
I agree with you that it is very confusing to someone who is looking at Christianity as a viable world view to see all the different denominations and interpretations etc. etc. I agree that this type of thing certainly turns people away, turns them to reliance on science or other means.
People who call themselves Christians and really aren’t…or those that ARE Christians but have wrong views on God and the bible will all have to answer to God one day.
I myself am not perfect and make mistakes all the time. But I know that God will forgive me for those things when I finally meet him face to face, and I know he will forgive you too if you ask for it. The issue is you need to ask God to forgive you while you are still breathing. After you die it’s too late.
I for one wouldn’t want my worst enemy to spend eternity separated from God.
Don’t let bad Christians or painful history keep you from making the most important decision of your life…accepting the free gift of Jesus Christ.
There’s not much more I can say…you will always be able to find a hole in my arguments, just as I will be able to find holes in yours.
As I have said before until God opens your eyes (which is beyond my power to do) you will not be able to see the truth.
When I get some time today I will provide some additional prophecy info that you all may find interesting.
Cheers!
I understand the need to be polite to someone who drops by for a conversation, but not for the need to publish their words. This man is not newsworthy, he’s nasty. This man is not a community leader, he’s a cheerleader for hatred. This man is not even Christian by any definition I can see in their biblical writings. When will we be strong enough to simply ignore the hateful publicity whores among us? Sigh.
@number2- Christian witch-craft is what you believe in. Spiritual mumbo-jumbo.
You cannot tell me that I am godless- I spent 13 years after my salvation walking with god/jesus trying to ‘overcome my sin’ and live the life of a straight man, including marrying and having two kids.
At the end of that 13 years, I was in so much agony on a daily basis that 5 minutes did not go by without thoughts of my own death and ending myself. This was after years of prayer, fasting, doing everything I was told to be ‘right with god’. A loveless life, devoid of meaning and purpose, even with a loving wife and children. This is what ‘god had for me’. Never once did I indulge in ‘the sin of homosexuality’, tho it was a constant behind my eyes, in my head and heart.
You know what? After 13 years of denying who I was, I was not one iota closer to being a straight man, much less a happy, filled-with-the-joy-of god man.
So I stopped, left my wife and sons, and decided to live what was on the inside, the way I was made, not what I was told I should be. By any measure (christian or not), my life is a blessed life today, 26 years later. I believed as I was taught that god would smite me, in his gentle ‘love’ to bring me back. God did not smite me, if anything he blessed me.
Today I have the love of my husband of 19+ years, the love of my ex-wife as the mother of my kids, a dear friend and the only woman I would have spent my life with, if I could have been what she and I wanted me to be. I have the love of my sons and their families, who also love my husband like a step-dad.
My biggest regret is that the likes of you and your ilk taught me my life was SO WORTHLESS, there was no sense protecting myself from AIDS when I first came out at 29, and so *I* caught the virus. Why bother if god has only misery and death for a homosexual, right?
I wish you people would ‘pray in silence’ for others (read your book about what Jesus had to say to the religious), rather than ‘pulling splinters out of our eyes, ignoring the logs in your own’. Is that so hard? Until you have walked 10 minutes in my shoes, in my skin, and with my heart (that was OH, SO DEDICATED TO THE LORD so many years ago), you have not one breath to judge & criticize me or the right to even look sideways at me. Struggle with your own ‘sins’; leave the ‘sins’ of others to god, you wicked, evil soul you.
PS: Please don’t preach your bible verses to me- I heard enough of that tripe to last me a life-time and beyond. They are hollow, meaningless words, devoid of anything life-giving.
Thanks Dr Riz for your counter arguments to this believer.
Eli- @31 has the best feedback to your article. Why all the missed opportunities? It would behoove you to consult with a former fundie before talking to the likes of Hutch in the future.
To all former ‘sinners’ turned christian- You CHOSE to live the judgemental, deprived and miserable lives that god has for you in this one, in the hopes of something decent after you die.
I and my people chose nothing about what gender we could find love with. The only thing chosen was whether or not to be true to the way god made us. If ‘choosing’ had anything to do with it, most of us would be straight.
We harm no one by this, and to all my experience are the *true* Lambs of God, wanting only what’s best for each individual on this planet. We do not harm your children, but love them as our nieces, nephews, students and yes, sons and daughters. We do not harm your marriages, families or ways of life.
Yet you persecute us with your beliefs, seek us out for special harms in the public square, and would jail us or have us put to death, if the contents of your hearts were laid bare for all to see. Look what your kind is trying to do in Uganda.
God will judge all your actions in this world, and preaching hate for any of his creations is ‘causing many of these children to stumble’. Be aware when you open your mouths in judgement.
@ 88 & 89
Sorry to hear that you have struggled so much.
But don’t think you are the only one…remember you don’t know me and what I have been through either.
If you want to see a decent example of a man who struggled greatly with suffering yet remained righteous before the Lord then you need look no further than the book of Job.
And Job didn’t even sin or do anything wrong…
Remember God is God and you and I are not…who are we to say anything about what God choses to do. I don’t understand it sometimes…and my life is full of struggle just like the rest of us but I do now this:
God is perfect, and doesn’t make mistakes. So whatever He allows to come into my life I just praise Him and try to do the right thing.
Like I said earlier…we talk about homosexuality but there are other sins out there…sins that I struggle with on a day to day basis. Yeah…I would like to just let go and do those sins but I know it’s wrong so I try my best not to.
You shouldn’t feel afraid because of me, or oppressed because of me I am just a man like you. But you need to fear God because He can take the breath out of your lungs…he can do with you what He wants to and someday you will answer to Him just like me.
Romans 14:11
As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will acknowledge God.
What? That sounds mean and narrow minded? Yeah maybe so but since its true what can you do about it…may as well submit in my opinion.
@89
“We do not harm your marriages, families or ways of life.”
I know it is not your intention to harm others or their way of life. But the homosexual lifestyle does harm me and it harms everyone else in this country as well. This is a huge debate, so I will just list a couple items:
1. If homosexual marriage is legalized nationally American’s health insurance will go up.
a. In general the homosexual lifestyle produces many more health risks and costs insurance companies far more than heterosexual marriage.
b. Homosexuality is a bad reproductive plan. If more and more people embrace homosexuality our people will eventually die out…our nation will collapse. I feel our nation will collapse sooner from national debt but still.
So here’s the deal from my point of view:
If you want to practice homosexuality in your own house behind closed doors then no problem from me. I will be a good neighbor… we would live peacefully on the same block and could even be friends. I don’t hate homosexual people just like I don’t hate the drunk next door so long as he doesn’t light the neighborhood on fire.
But…
The minute you try to change laws, or enter the public arena with your agenda to change teaching in public schools etc. Well, that’s where I will stand up and state my opinion…firmly if need be. This is a great country so may the most votes win.
Much of the turbulence between the homosexual community and people like me is in the political arena where we each have the right to stand up for our values and be counted. If you can sway the voters to legalize homosexual marriage then go for it…but don’t expect me to roll over and play dead.
Remember 3 things…
1. I don’t hate you, I just disagree with you.
2. The most votes wins
3. We will all ultimately answer to God.
where’s the proof for all your baseless allegations, number2? you got any studies to back that up? or are you pulling that bullshit out of your ass, along with your disgustingly fecal appellation?
by the by, you willfully ignorant twit, you don’t put civil rights like marriage equality up for a vote. and it IS marriage equality, NOT homosexual marriage. come on! show us the statistics! thou shalt not bear false witness against your neighbor, mr. holier-than-thou!
@92
Resorting to name calling is proof enough of your character.
Ok, I will provide some health statistics when I get the time.
Also…civil rights is a completely separate issue which is not the topic of our discussion here. Would you like to discuss civil rights as well?
One of the biggest differences between civil rights and homosexual rights is choice. Nobody can choose what race they are…but people choose to be homosexual in the same manner that I choose (or dont choose) to be a murderer.
It’s really quite simple.
@92
Almost forgot…
Don’t try to tell me that “you were born that way and you have no choice”
I wont buy that.
Because then I could say I was born with the strong desire to murder people and you should understand that and have compassion on me and allow me to make laws supporting my behavior since I was born with it.
See the slippery slope we are dealing with here? The CHOICE to be homosexual is NOT the same as being born black or white or asian.
@number2 , wow, just wow. Wasn’t gonna post anything but after reading your post about your godly concerns with homosexual marriage causing health insurance to go up? (post 91) And later you say it’s a choice to be gay……
In your next life you will born gay. That seems to be your only hope in gaining some kind of perspective.
Currently you are a sick and confused individual.
Don’t take any pride in your defense of Christianity on this board. It fell on deaf ears. You’ve only made a fool of yourself.
Well, at least we know that Noah saved some room on the ark for drooling dim-witted troglodytes (see number2 for proof of the species’ continued survival to this day). Whenever someone starts spouting that “I got religion, so I’m totally freaking correct, neener-neener, I can’t hear you” stuff, I make sure my wallet’s still there. And now I’m going to head out and embrace some chosen homosexuality so I can speed up the collapse of the US and push up insurance rates and make everybody miserable. Ta-ta for now.
@96
at least your honest!
@95
How is it that living the gay lifestyle is not a choice? Help me understand.
I get that some people are born with the desire to be gay and I think that is what you are talking about right? I am not contesting that. But it is a choice you make to LIVE OUT that lifestyle right?
Even #88 stated that he tried to live according to what other Christians were telling him but after a long while of suffering he MADE A CHOICE to just give in to what his desires were.
It must be hard I get that…but just because you were born with certain tendencies or desires doesnt make it RIGHT to just live out that desire does it?
Because if that were true then I could live out my desire THAT I WAS BORN WITH to be a murderer…or a thief…or a liar etc etc.
We’d have people running around saying “It’s not my fault I stole that money…I was born a thief I cant help it”
Come on guys (and gals) don’t tell me you can’t see my point of view on this. Don’t tell me that the CHOICE to live out the gay lifestyle is THE SAME as being born black or white or whatever where there is NO CHOICE in the matter.
The great part is…I know my words will fall on some deaf ears and thats OK. But maybe God will move some of you some day.
People…10 miles up the road the bridge is out…I am trying to warn you because I dont want any of you to fall into the ravine and die.
Take ot or leave it…either way thanks to some of you for the constructive conversation.
@everyone
You want some facts about the health risks of the homosexual lifestyle? Well it’s too much info to write down so here are some links:
http://factsaboutyouth.com/posts/health-…
http://noapologies.ca/daily-news/older-h…
http://www.narth.com/docs/whitehead.html
Note the preceeding articles are all from vastly different sources so you can’t say I got them all from christian web sites.
It’s common knowledge in the general medical community that the homosexual lifestyle is harmful. Whoever thinks that insurance rates and the like wont go up if gay marriage is legalized and as more gay couples enter the mainstream is really ignoring the facts.
Wow! I’m really surprised any SPU students spoke out about Haven. It’s kinda dangerous to stand up for yourself or your peers at SPU, even after you’ve graduated.
I don’t know if anyone saw this article in SPU’s student newspaper-http://www.thefalcononline.com/article.php?id=5840
It’s about how an administrator used the newspaper’s need for a new server to try and get control over the Falcon’s archived news content. The article shows how things at SPU work.
Even though the Falcon article mentions a meeting between Falcon editor Evi Sztajno and Vice President of Academic Affairs Les Steele, what it doesn’t tell you is that in the meeting, Steele totally threatened to ruin Evi’s future career in Journalism if she didn’t do what he said. That’s not really a secret or anything. Steele threatened Evi in front of everyone there. People say Evi had a nervous breakdown and had to drop out of school for a while because of it.
I’m not sure what happened to the Falcon archives, but Evi somehow managed to graduate from SPU and I think she found a job at KOMO radio.
facts about youth: run by the american college of pediatricians: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Co…
NARTH: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_As…
No Apologies:
http://www.religiousrightalert.ca/2010/0…
zero credibility, pal. do you actually know any LGBT people? do you know any gay families? obviously not.
@98
Hey, I did a bit of research on your sources, and I have to say that your sentence: “Note the preceeding articles are all from vastly different sources so you can’t say I got them all from christian web sites.” is bullshit.
Facts about youth is a project of the American College of Pediatricians, whose founder, Dr. Joseph Zanga, has described ACP as being a group “with Judeo-Christian, traditional values…”
No Apologies was easier with the about page on their web site clearly stating: “No Apologies is the media ministry of ChristianGovernance.”
NARTH, however, claims to be secular, but I pretty sure that’s bullshit. First red flag, their headquarters are located at the Thomas Aquinas Psychological Clinic. Secondly, they have a page devoted to Theological Issues. They also have close ties to many conservative christian groups.
Finally, of the two “science” groups that you have listed, both are essentially fringe groups whose membership is tiny compared to more respected organizations.
A few final words. Don’t say that you don’t hate gay people because that’s just not true. You hate them, and you just can’t admit that to yourself. “I don’t hate gay people, but…” is the new “I’m not racist, but…” Please don’t take this as an attack, because it’s not. It is simply the truth.
@101
Well I do believe there is a difference between disagreeing with a behavior vs simply hating the entire person.
If you say that I hate you then thats your opinion and you are entitled to it but consider this so you can at least understand where I am coming from:
I have kids and they do things that I disagree with yet I still love them. When they do wrong things I correct them and we move on…if they defy me and continue to do the wrong thing then I will presist with my correction taking any measure necessary to correct the problem.
But ultimately I still love my kids.
So please…I dont even know you…and you dont know me. Lets just keep the hate comments targeted appropriately like this:
I hate (if you will) the behavior of homosexuality and yes I think it is wrong.
I do not hate you as a person and in fact we may actually get along with most other things etc.
If you don’t like Ketchup do you hate all people who do like it?
If you are homosexual do any of your parents disagree with your choices but still love you? I would suspect so…and if my son chose to be homosexual I would disagree with him etc but I would still love him.
Just be honest when you say stuff about me instead of unfairly blanket labeling me.
@98 again
Regarding my sources…
Yes I was in a hurry so I pulled those off the internet quickly.
If you did your own research I bet you could find similar information from a source you find more credible. There is ALOT of information out there about this issue and if you want to just discount it all and throw it out I think you are ignoring the facts.
@101 above…i keep messing that up!
It’s said there’s no such thing as bad publicity. So here’s a hearty FUCK YOU to the STRANGER for providing this homophobic, self-righteous prick with a forum to spout his hate speech.
Hatey-Hatey Christians: You don’t know me.
Our country is in a lot of trouble if guys like this are running its universities!
Do you christians have any idea how stupid you sound to people from the 21st century?
Why don’t you just hold onto that flat earth theory too? it completes the picture.
In the words of the late Jeffery Lee Pierce
“Gonna be a baptist preacher…..Sooooo I don’t have to work”
Yes, the lone track jacket half-way zipped is extremely creepy.