“I‘m gonna pray first, I hope you guys don’t mind,” said Redmond pastor Ken Hutcherson at the start of a meeting he’d requested with The Stranger staff at our offices on April 22.
“Lord,” Hutcherson said, “thank you for the opportunity to express ideas and get answers.”
Hutch, as he’s known to most people, had a lot of ideas to express. Ideas about masturbation, evolution, journalism, Matthew Shepard’s “irritating” behavior, and, most important to Hutch on this day, proper sexual conduct for students at Seattle Pacific University. He felt he had to “come face-to-face” with The Stranger in order to share those ideas, and he also wanted to learn more about an article I published on March 30 titled “The Secret Sex Lives of SPU Students.”
Hutch didn’t believe I’d been fair to SPU; he thinks the majority of the school’s students are just as chaste as he—or, in Hutch’s telling, He—demands. But Hutch also expressed alarm at a possible lack of leadership at SPU that could be leading to unholy student sex (“The leadership needs to take more responsibility”), and he had a message for students at SPU who, as they recounted in their own words in “The Secret Sex Lives of SPU Students,” have been having a lot of premarital sex in direct violation of school rules.
Hutch’s message: Be more like Hutch.
“I was a renegade when it came to sex,” Hutch said of his youth. “I was the guy on campus who thought I should conquer every woman who walked by… Until I met Christ, and [then] that attitude had to change.”
The meeting with Christ happened when he was 16, Hutch said, and as soon as it occurred, he stopped having sex. Full stop. Did Hutch even allow himself to masturbate? “Thank you very much, I did not,” he said. “Can you masturbate without lusting?”
His sexless life went on for 17 years, Hutch recounted, until he was married at age 33.
“The issue was obedience,” Hutch said. “There are certain things I’m going to do and not do as a Christian, regardless of how strong my body acts. Because I have said I believe in Bible.”
What else does Hutch believe?
According to Hutch, dinosaurs and humans lived together on this planet at the same time.
“Absolutely,” Hutch said. “Pretty difficult for dinosaurs to get on the ark with Noah and not both be on the earth.”
He continued: “The earth is probably, biblically, six thousand, seven thousand years old, a young earth. And during that time, even Noah, even Adam, if you look at the Bible and the years that they lived—at the end of the antediluvian period, early antediluvian period, uh, antiquity, early antiquity—there’s man and animal. Both walked together. All the way back. Because they was created at the same time in seven days. Absolutely, baby. Isn’t it sweet?”
Uh. Okay. But back to sex: What does Hutch say about SPU students who aren’t being Hutch-like with their young bodies? Simple: “They’re sinners.”
Also a sinner in Hutch’s brain: Matthew Shepard.
“Matthew was a person who irritated a lot of people,” Hutch said, dismissing parallels between the deadly violence Shepard experienced and the violence other marginalized Americans have experienced, sometimes with the tacit approval of bigoted religious leaders.
Hutch continued with his sinner list: gay students at SPU, Stranger staffers (duh), and certain members of his own Antioch Bible Church. “Do you believe that everyone at Antioch, my church, is following all the biblical rules?” Hutch asked at one point. “No! We have to discipline people almost every year and kick ’em out when they don’t repent. Should I change the rules?”
His answer was quick and merciless: no.
While Hutch was on the subject of gay SPU students, he made clear to us that he’s unhappy with a decision made earlier this year by SPU officials to relax their own rules and allow a gay student group, Haven, to use campus meeting rooms. “If I was president, it wouldn’t have happened,” Hutch said.
Stephen Michael Newby, an associate professor of music at SPU and director of the school’s Center for Worship, joined Hutch partway through the meeting with The Stranger.
Asked about life at SPU since the publication of the article, Newby said things like “It is the community’s responsibility to be concerned for the concerns that are on the table, and that is my concern.” On Hutch’s worry that SPU leaders may be failing their students: “Perhaps we should explore having a dialogue on that.” On next steps: “I would really like to consider inviting Eli, in a room, where we can sit you down where we can have our camera and our crew around you.” Newby hoped Hutch would be there, too. After all, Newby said, Hutch is a good role model for SPU students and “a friend of the university.” 
Video on the right, you can also watch the video HERE.
@50
One last thing…in your opening statement you say “God would not curse his children”
Read Genesis and you will see that God did curse us after we sinned. We are still living with that curse right now…but the good news is there is a way out per my previous post.
There are many things I dont understand about God either…but if it were possible to understand God fully then we would be God ourselves…consider this verse:
As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Isaiah 55:9
@21 The girl eggs are pink and the boy eggs are blue. Derrrr. 🙂
@56-58: Worst. ASCII art. Ever.
@54
“Rarely do we find men who willingly engage in hard, solid thinking. There is an almost universal quest for easy answers and half-baked solutions. Nothing pains some people more than having to think.” – Martin Luther King, Jr.
“It is easy to hate and it is difficult to love. This is how the whole scheme of things works. All good things are difficult to achieve; and bad things are very easy to get.” – Confuscius
“Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you’d have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion.” – Steven Weinberg
I’ll say this much, I do believe in God and God’s love. But my beliefs are my own. You may say that
But the rest of us? Those of us that have made the more difficult choice to think for ourselves? What we see you doing is using guilt, fear, and coercion in an utterly futile and puerile attempt to make us think the way you do.
The Bible, which you may say is the final authority, was written by men half a century after Christ’s death. And as far as I’m concerned, men are fallible.
And the men I’ve quoted? I have much more respect for them, because they don’t have to turn to any source outside of themselves (like a big fat book) to know right from wrong, and they don’t have to turn to coercion and fear to gain my respect.
God dwells within us. So maybe for some it’s God, for others it’s Nirvana, for others it’s the Universe or Destiny, and for the rest it’s just basic human decency, but we don’t need you or the Bible dictating to us what right and wrong are.
Jesus was a cool dude. I can absolutely get behind his preachings without accepting him as my lord and savior, and you know why? Because all the stuff about loving thy neighbor, I figured out on my own. You, on the other hand? Boy howdy, if it takes brainwashing with a Bible to keep you from murdering your coworkers, then I guess I’m glad that all we have to put up with from you is a little trolling and some arrogant evangelizing.
Wow Eli, I didn’t think you could sink to a worse journalistic low after the SPU sex article, but you just did. Dropped the ball, missed the boat. You could have presented some thought- and discussion-provoking material for us, but nope, you opted for the cheap shots and predictable sensationalist crap that I liked to think writers at The Stranger were rising above in recent years. Yes, Hutcherson has a few screws loose and I’d have a hard time restraining myself from removing a few of his teeth if I were in the same room, but wow, was the hour-long conversation really that void of substance? And what the hell is your obsession with SPU? When I went there 15 years ago, I was surprised that nearly every prof I had spoke out clearly on behalf of gay & lesbian people. You had to go and pick one wingnut who supports your case…. pretty shoddy reporting, Eli.
My gratitude and respect go out to Rev. Riz, who wrote a moving response (#24) to some of the heartless “Christian” zombies giving the same line that I used to give regarding AIDS. I was deeply involved in that religious scene in the early 80’s, and I can say that the response to AIDS was far more “I told ya so!” than it was a compassionate one. This has changed in a large way since then, to be fair, and I like to think that the dinosaur Hutcherson speaks for a nearly-extinct species. Whatever the case, I hope this is the last I have to hear from him, because I’ve had about all I can take.
@54
It’s alright, I know most of my evangelizing is futile. I am under no pressure to make you think like me, the way you think is your choice and I am not going to convince you otherwise. Only God can change minds…and that truly is a miracle.
I just try to share the truth and you can take it or leave it, I dont hate you or despise you, I just dont agree with you.
As for me, I will trust in God and His word, as for you…good luck with trusting only yourself and the few other humans you have put your faith in.
above I meant @61!
gah…cant edit responses ;P
@number 2, you said “The bible is the final authority on what is right and what is wrong.”
Would that be the earliest writings from 100 a.d. or so? In ancient Hebrew or Aramaic or whatever language they were originally written in? Are you fluent in that language? Were any writings lost? Which translation is the the most accurate throughout the centuries, throughout the millennia? The Greek translations? The Latin translations? The middle English translations? Or are the earliest ones the most accurate? Or is the one you read the most accurate? Are the translations of the Bible, and the writings that got included in the Bible, really what Jesus said, and perfectly translated and free of adulterations over the course of 2000 years? Is the Bible being modified even in the present day?
Society will improve when leftist newspapers finally learn to stop writing articles about crazy, idiotic conservatives like Sarah Palin, the WBC, and this guy.
You are just giving him attention, Eli! Psychologists agree that people only change their behavior based on rewards (they will repeat the behavior that earned the reward), and that ignorance is more effective than punishment in discouraging bad behavior. You have just rewarded this Hutch guy with attention.
@MacGruber
That is a very good question, and one that I have questioned greatly myself. I realize that putting ones compete faith in something is a big deal and should not be taken lightly.
Let’s consider this verse:
2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness
In my research/study of this very subject (it’s an important one) when I was a young believer I considered the above verse (and others) while trying to prove that the bible was just a storybook written by man.
While I am unable to prove physically that the bible is the true inspired word of God, there are a few things that greatly influenced me and helped me come to my own conclusion.
1. First of all you must have some measure of faith to believe what God said is true about the bible. This is the part most people get hung up on but if you think about it you have faith in things you can’t prove all the time.
For instance, others have said (in previous posts) that the earth is billions of years old. Well they can’t prove that…in essence they are placing their faith in some information that they have heard or seen and thus their “belief” is that the earth is billions of years old. But nobody alive today was there to see the earth’s first moments so it is completely unprovable. Even the scientists who claim this have made “assumptions” that they really can’t prove…so in essence evolution is just another religion that you cannot prove to me.
In the same manner I cannot prove that God created the earth in 6 days since I was not there, so a measure of faith must be exercised by a person believing in God or evolution, or any other religion etc. etc.
2. In my research on the subject I have found that the bible was written by 40 different authors over a 1500 year span of time. I believe God worked through those men and allowed them to write His words in their own style but ultimately God in His wisdom completely controlled what got into the bible and what didn’t…what got canonized and what didn’t etc. In a nutshell I believe that God used men as His instruments to get His word into a book but also had complete control of its contents.
I have traveled to Israel and seen the book of Isaiah on display at the museum there. What is incredible about this is it was found in modern times but nearly matches WORD FOR WORD the bibles that we have had in our hands for centuries. I encourage you to research this yourself as there is much information on this topic alone.
Yes three are many translations of the bible out there and some of the more modern ones I would question…especially ones that have changed the text to be “more readable” etc. etc. So one must be careful which translation to read as man is always messing with things and can mess it up. Thankfully there are enough good translations in circulation today that you can find one to read along with other tools to help with your understanding of the text. I always encourage people to get other resources (ancient language translators, concordance, many different bible translations for comparison etc.) to help them study the bible more effectively.
3. The bible is the only book that I know of that is completely unselfish and not about man but about God.
When I pondered the entirety of the bible a very unique revelation came to me that you too can ponder:
How could man have written the bible? It is not possible! Why? The bible tells the story of God alone…and His son who did things for us that we cannot even understand or even conjure up. If man wrote the bible there would certainly be more in there about man and how great man is. If men wrote the bible don’t you think there would be more in there about how awesome we are? Or more about the heroic deeds of men and how we figured it all out? But there’s not…the book is about God, and tells a story about how man was HELPLESS and that God did something for mankind that man could not do for himself.
This is terribly long winded but consider this final verse:
Isaiah 53:10
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
If you really ponder this verse you will see that it is really incomprehensible to mere man. How could ANYONE be pleased to give their only son up to a brutal death to save a wretched people that don’t deserve saving. Take that a step further and you see that God did this for ALL of us even those that will never come to him and will continue to spit in his face. As a man I couldn’t do it…I could NEVER be pleased to watch my son die a 3 hour death on a cross for someone that murdered my wife.
This is what God did for us!!!
How could ANY man come up with that story??!! I am convinced that the bible is straight from God. There is much more to discuss about this…I tried my best to hit some of the main points. I appreciate that you are asking an intelligent question rather than insulting me etc.
Again consider this verse:
As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Isaiah 55:9
@MacGruber
Forgot to mention one of the other mojor factors for my belief in the bible…
The prophesies that are coming true as we speak!
I wont be long winded but consider this:
The bible was written centuries ago but has predicted correctly what we are going through today for instance:
1. The Bible talks about a one world government in th end times
2. The Bible talks about moving to a one world currency in the end times
3. The bible talks about a cashless society in the end times
4. The Bible says there will be disasters/wars and an increase in earthquakes in the end times.
Take number 4 for example…
With our modern instruments we can even see the dramatic increase in earthquakes worldwide from 1990 until now.
You can just read the news and see that the world is moving to one central government and we are moving to a central currency.
And you can see that with credit cads, ATM’s etc. etc. that a cashless society is not far from reality.
All these things were in the bible a century ago before people could even understand some of these concepts…but we are LIVING in it right now!!
I’d be happy to provide verses for some of the above…and theres more!!! Trying to keep this post short winded 😛
Endless virtual debates of religion are pointless. Go do something useful with your time. Nobody is going to change anyone else’s mind. Jesus.
@69
You are correct, I can’t change anyone’s mind, but God can, and maybe God will use this “pointless” conversation to work miracles. Plus I see conversations like this differently than you. Where you see them as pointless, I see them as important as life and death itself.
@67: “Even the scientists who claim this have made ‘assumptions’ that they really can’t prove…so in essence evolution is just another religion that you cannot prove to me.”
Please read this before you make such a ridiculous claim in the future.
@71
Not sure I get your point…reading that does not make my statement “rediculous” at all.
Are you implying that science and it’s methods are to be trusted 100% and that science has answers for everything?
While I feel that science is wonderful and much of it actually proves the bible rather than contradicts it there is no way I believe that science has all the answers.
I like talking about science…here’s something to ponder:
Many scientists look at the Grand Canyon and say that it proves the earth is billions of years old due to the many many layers of sediment/fossils etc. And that it would take billions of years for water to create such a vast/deep canyon such as this.
Well…interestingly enough we have a great example of this in our own backyard. Mt St Helens blew up and within HOURS rushing water and debris cut canyons into the earth that some scientists would have claimed to be impossible.
So…couldn’t it be plausible that the great flood of Noah’s time may have been able to cut the Grand Canyon out within a couple years? Wouldnt this also explain some of the fossils they have found far inland that are sea creatures?
Anyway, this is a big discussion…so I offer just a morsel of food for thought.
@72: Yes it does. Read it again.
Here’s one of the key points regarding the scientific method:
“If the hypothesis is truly scientific, it should be possible to design an experiment to test it. An experiment should be able to tell the scientist if the hypothesis is wrong; it may not tell him or her if the hypothesis is right.”
This is the fundamental difference between science and religion: Scientific hypotheses can be tested and disproven. There are no tests of religious tenets. Nothing can be disproven, as any evidence that might disprove a religious tenet can be hand-waved away by saying “God did it.”
Science takes nothing on faith and assumes nothing is proven. All science claims to do is present a working hypothesis that explains, in scientific terms, how something works, and that has not yet been disproven.
“Is it plausible that the great flood of Noah’s time cut the Grand Canyon?” is not a scientific question – I might well ask “Is it plausible that the Grand Canyon was excavated by magic dwarves?” It cannot be disproven.
In contrast, all the current scientific explanations for the Grand Canyon, and for inland fossils of sea creatures, are based on scientific hypotheses that are testable and disprovable. For example.
This is The Hutch. I guess we can all agree that since the article and video has come out all have talked about God and the Bible. So I can say to all of you, you will have no excuse when you stand before God face to face. Can I get an aman?
@74
I see where you are going.
With the subject matter at hand, things like the origin of the universe or the birth of planet earth there is no way to prove or disprove this since no one was there to observe or record these events.
Yet I have talked personally with scientists that have told me evolution is FACT, and the big bang is FACT when in reality there is NO scientific method or process (as you have stated above) to prove these supposed facts.
Therefore to me anyone who claims things like evolution is fact, and the big bang is fact is really practicing their religion.
With provable/testable phenomena such as gravity, I completely agree with you. But with what we are talking about weather you believe in the big bang or God’s creation…it’s a religion (or call it what you will but it’s not provable).
So as we discuss these unprovable topics, I find it fair that each side present their thoughts/evidence/beliefs with as much factual information as possible and we have great things to ponder.
Your statement about me being ridiculous would be true if I were challenging gravity for instance…but not Evolution, or the origin of our planet.
@76: Gravity and the origin of the earth are intimately connected. For that matter, gravity and the origin of the universe are intimately connected.
Scientists will sometimes talk of facts as a shorthand for “the theory has been tested and is robust; the evidence in support of the theory is overwhelming; the current explanation has not been disproven and is not in any way likely to be disproven.” The scientific method has been used to demonstrate that theories such as evolution and the Big Bang are true beyond all reasonable doubt. There are still parts of biology and cosmology that these theories do not fully explain, or course, and these areas are the subject of ongoing research. But to be clear: the theory of evolution is not in any real scientific doubt.
But at the end of the day, science does admit the possibility that today’s theory may be tomorrow’s mistake. (Though in truth, what typically happens is today’s theory becomes tomorrow’s special case; for example classical physics which was not so much proven wrong as it was proven inaccurate in the case of very small sizes or very fast speeds.)
This can be contrasted with religion, which does not admit the possibility of doubt and which cannot be tested. If my wife falls sick and I pray that she is healed, if she recovers it cannot be disproven that her recovery is a result of my prayer. And if she does not recover, that doesn’t disprove the efficacy of prayer either. Perhaps my prayer was not sufficiently sincere. Or perhaps God’s plan for me, or for her, required her to not recover. There is no test – there is only faith.
@76
Here is where we differ and where this discussion possibly reaches it’s logical conclusion:
I believe it takes more faith to believe what scientists say about the orgin of our planet than it does to believe in what God has revealed to His creation through the Bible.
Judging by your final statement about God and religeon – “there is no test – there is only faith” How do you feel about my post #68?
Is it not strange to you that a book written thousands of years ago could be correct about what we are experiencing in the world today? Only God knows the future so it would make sense that the Bible be spot on with the world events it speaks of. And remember the writings in the bible have been available for centuries…far before the economic/technical revolution.
To me these types of things are facts that cannot be swept under the carpet.
@ 77 i meant above ha ha!!
@74–are you implying that the Grand Canyon was NOT excavated by magic dwarves? Though it is sad that since Noah had used up all the room on his boat with those silly dinosaurs, there wasn’t enough room for the magic dwarves and they all drowned in the great flood. Until god sent the rainbow, so Noah could find its end and swipe the pot of leprauchan gold, thus further postponing the end of the world because, lo, there was cash, and it was good.
@ 68, 78
Hey, good for you (and B.Bomber) for having a civil discussion. I’d like to pick up your question, going back to 68.
All sort of ancient texts foretell prophecies and quite a few of them seem valid. But, upon closer study, we can see that the statements made about the future are vague enough to be applied to many different moments in history. This is an issue of perspective, and studying history (and literature) might do some good in noticing how these predictions manage to remain convincing after thousands of years. However, one major obstacle is in assuming the Bible is inerrant. This goes back to the difference between science and religion, you both commented on. Saying the Bible’s prophecies are obviously true shows a sort of bias that cannot exist within an honest discussion about actual truth. Why? Because the moment it is suggested that the Bible is not completely true, any more statements from this point of view are labeled.
I’ll take all of your points:
1. One world government…as far as I know, as imperialistic as “the West” is, there is no government that controls the entire world. Also, I would think the manner in which people saw the expansion of Ancient Rome seemed more like a one world government then anything we have now, considering that was most of the “known” world. If you’d like to debate this point, please let me know what one world government you think controls the earth in present time.
2. There is not one currency. Dollars, Yen, Euros, etc.
3. Please cite the verse a “cashless” society is mentioned. Bartering occurred throughout history, and I’m more prone to believe that’s what the writer was referring to, rather than my amex.
4. Disasters and Wars…pretty vague. Despite how it seems from watching the news, we have fewer wars, globally, now then in the past. They are generally less bloody and because of mass media, such atrocities cannot go unnoticed for long. This doesn’t stop people from killing each other, but in many areas dictators and warmongers can’t operate on their every psychotic whim because of the reaction of the rest of the world. I’m not saying this stops every dictator or that every conflict results in less death, just on average, humanity is learning from its mistakes.
However, even if any of these made a more convincing argument, they are not accurate enough to accept (unless you already believe the Bible to be 100% true)as prophecy. If the prophet had described the inner workings of an ATM machine, that would be something solid. If they had pin pointed the exact time and date and nature of a disaster, that would be another valuable bit of evidence. Does it mean anything to you that your exact argument has been made by Christians of every generation, starting with the forming of the church? Even the original 12 disciples believed, or at least assumed, that the “end times” were to occur within their lifetime.
Sorry for being long-winded, kind of a large topic.
@81
Thanks, thats a great reply. I will gather some of my notes and write a proper response when I have more time (probably tomorrow morning).
For now I can offer this:
In the old testament the Bible made hundreds of prophecies to very detailed events all of which have come to pass.
I would suspect you wont accept these because you would argue that someone changed the new testament to match the prophecies written in the old. Although through science we can prove that the old testament was written long before the new testament. What do you think about that?
I will find more modern world examples and present them tomorrow. I for one am very interested in this subject so I dont mind digging up my research.
Long live civil discussions!
Eli-you should check out N.T. Wright’s latest work entitled After You Believe: Why Christian Character Matters, the third in a series, preceded by Simply Christian and Surprised by Hope. Whenever there is a new release by N.T. Wright, the content is guaranteed to be both substantive and challenging. You need to be challenged in your thinking
While I generally ascribe to the reformed theological tradition, Wright comes from both an Anglican background as well as embracing the “new perspective” on Paul that seeks to relegate “works of the law” to ethnic exclusivity. Additionally, while he does passingly affirm the penal substitutionary view, he tends to emphasize the Christus Victor motif of the atonement.
Thus, in reviewing this book I must simultaneously affirm these soteriological and ecclesiological differences as well as seek to find areas of agreement, and I’m pleased to say that I found much to appreciate not only in Wright’s usual debonair literary style, but also his lucid articulation of the call to Christian character. Good luck baby!
@83
Holy smokes, those are some long words…time to break out the dictionary )
@78: “I believe it takes more faith to believe what scientists say about the orgin of our planet than it does to believe in what God has revealed to His creation through the Bible.”
Then I must say, with respect, that you clearly are very poorly informed as to the current state of earth sciences, cosmology, and, well, pretty much everything. It takes me no faith whatsoever to believe what I have been taught about the origin of our planet; it takes an understanding of high school physics and biology, and an open mind.
Your post @68 is unconvincing. I suggest you take some time to learn about confirmation bias, as well as a few other pertinent logical fallacies. I have read the Bible, cover to cover, more than once. I have heard countless sermons on its lessons and I have studied parts of it closely. Having done so, I know that it is a long book full of inconsistencies and internal contradictions. It can be read in many ways to justify and support many conclusions – just look at the vast range of religious belief and practice that falls under the heading “Christianity”, all of which claim to be divinely inspired by the Bible.
There are a wide range of Biblical prophecies which have from time to time been interpreted to mean different – sometimes inconsistent – things. As @81 points out, your interpretation of certain Biblical prophecies is not that convincing.
And, again, none of what is said to be true in these prophecies is falsfiable. The history of Christianity is full of those who have propeshied that the End Times are coming, complete with predictions of the exact hour and date. When the time has come and passed, no one said “Well, so much for Christianity then; theory disproven.” They just went back to the Bible and pulled out another hour and date.
@85
No doubt throughout history and today there are people who use Christianity wrongly to prove a point or justify their actions.
I agree with you that it is very confusing to someone who is looking at Christianity as a viable world view to see all the different denominations and interpretations etc. etc. I agree that this type of thing certainly turns people away, turns them to reliance on science or other means.
People who call themselves Christians and really aren’t…or those that ARE Christians but have wrong views on God and the bible will all have to answer to God one day.
I myself am not perfect and make mistakes all the time. But I know that God will forgive me for those things when I finally meet him face to face, and I know he will forgive you too if you ask for it. The issue is you need to ask God to forgive you while you are still breathing. After you die it’s too late.
I for one wouldn’t want my worst enemy to spend eternity separated from God.
Don’t let bad Christians or painful history keep you from making the most important decision of your life…accepting the free gift of Jesus Christ.
There’s not much more I can say…you will always be able to find a hole in my arguments, just as I will be able to find holes in yours.
As I have said before until God opens your eyes (which is beyond my power to do) you will not be able to see the truth.
When I get some time today I will provide some additional prophecy info that you all may find interesting.
Cheers!
I understand the need to be polite to someone who drops by for a conversation, but not for the need to publish their words. This man is not newsworthy, he’s nasty. This man is not a community leader, he’s a cheerleader for hatred. This man is not even Christian by any definition I can see in their biblical writings. When will we be strong enough to simply ignore the hateful publicity whores among us? Sigh.
@number2- Christian witch-craft is what you believe in. Spiritual mumbo-jumbo.
You cannot tell me that I am godless- I spent 13 years after my salvation walking with god/jesus trying to ‘overcome my sin’ and live the life of a straight man, including marrying and having two kids.
At the end of that 13 years, I was in so much agony on a daily basis that 5 minutes did not go by without thoughts of my own death and ending myself. This was after years of prayer, fasting, doing everything I was told to be ‘right with god’. A loveless life, devoid of meaning and purpose, even with a loving wife and children. This is what ‘god had for me’. Never once did I indulge in ‘the sin of homosexuality’, tho it was a constant behind my eyes, in my head and heart.
You know what? After 13 years of denying who I was, I was not one iota closer to being a straight man, much less a happy, filled-with-the-joy-of god man.
So I stopped, left my wife and sons, and decided to live what was on the inside, the way I was made, not what I was told I should be. By any measure (christian or not), my life is a blessed life today, 26 years later. I believed as I was taught that god would smite me, in his gentle ‘love’ to bring me back. God did not smite me, if anything he blessed me.
Today I have the love of my husband of 19+ years, the love of my ex-wife as the mother of my kids, a dear friend and the only woman I would have spent my life with, if I could have been what she and I wanted me to be. I have the love of my sons and their families, who also love my husband like a step-dad.
My biggest regret is that the likes of you and your ilk taught me my life was SO WORTHLESS, there was no sense protecting myself from AIDS when I first came out at 29, and so *I* caught the virus. Why bother if god has only misery and death for a homosexual, right?
I wish you people would ‘pray in silence’ for others (read your book about what Jesus had to say to the religious), rather than ‘pulling splinters out of our eyes, ignoring the logs in your own’. Is that so hard? Until you have walked 10 minutes in my shoes, in my skin, and with my heart (that was OH, SO DEDICATED TO THE LORD so many years ago), you have not one breath to judge & criticize me or the right to even look sideways at me. Struggle with your own ‘sins’; leave the ‘sins’ of others to god, you wicked, evil soul you.
PS: Please don’t preach your bible verses to me- I heard enough of that tripe to last me a life-time and beyond. They are hollow, meaningless words, devoid of anything life-giving.
Thanks Dr Riz for your counter arguments to this believer.
Eli- @31 has the best feedback to your article. Why all the missed opportunities? It would behoove you to consult with a former fundie before talking to the likes of Hutch in the future.
To all former ‘sinners’ turned christian- You CHOSE to live the judgemental, deprived and miserable lives that god has for you in this one, in the hopes of something decent after you die.
I and my people chose nothing about what gender we could find love with. The only thing chosen was whether or not to be true to the way god made us. If ‘choosing’ had anything to do with it, most of us would be straight.
We harm no one by this, and to all my experience are the *true* Lambs of God, wanting only what’s best for each individual on this planet. We do not harm your children, but love them as our nieces, nephews, students and yes, sons and daughters. We do not harm your marriages, families or ways of life.
Yet you persecute us with your beliefs, seek us out for special harms in the public square, and would jail us or have us put to death, if the contents of your hearts were laid bare for all to see. Look what your kind is trying to do in Uganda.
God will judge all your actions in this world, and preaching hate for any of his creations is ‘causing many of these children to stumble’. Be aware when you open your mouths in judgement.
@ 88 & 89
Sorry to hear that you have struggled so much.
But don’t think you are the only one…remember you don’t know me and what I have been through either.
If you want to see a decent example of a man who struggled greatly with suffering yet remained righteous before the Lord then you need look no further than the book of Job.
And Job didn’t even sin or do anything wrong…
Remember God is God and you and I are not…who are we to say anything about what God choses to do. I don’t understand it sometimes…and my life is full of struggle just like the rest of us but I do now this:
God is perfect, and doesn’t make mistakes. So whatever He allows to come into my life I just praise Him and try to do the right thing.
Like I said earlier…we talk about homosexuality but there are other sins out there…sins that I struggle with on a day to day basis. Yeah…I would like to just let go and do those sins but I know it’s wrong so I try my best not to.
You shouldn’t feel afraid because of me, or oppressed because of me I am just a man like you. But you need to fear God because He can take the breath out of your lungs…he can do with you what He wants to and someday you will answer to Him just like me.
Romans 14:11
As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will acknowledge God.
What? That sounds mean and narrow minded? Yeah maybe so but since its true what can you do about it…may as well submit in my opinion.
@89
“We do not harm your marriages, families or ways of life.”
I know it is not your intention to harm others or their way of life. But the homosexual lifestyle does harm me and it harms everyone else in this country as well. This is a huge debate, so I will just list a couple items:
1. If homosexual marriage is legalized nationally American’s health insurance will go up.
a. In general the homosexual lifestyle produces many more health risks and costs insurance companies far more than heterosexual marriage.
b. Homosexuality is a bad reproductive plan. If more and more people embrace homosexuality our people will eventually die out…our nation will collapse. I feel our nation will collapse sooner from national debt but still.
So here’s the deal from my point of view:
If you want to practice homosexuality in your own house behind closed doors then no problem from me. I will be a good neighbor… we would live peacefully on the same block and could even be friends. I don’t hate homosexual people just like I don’t hate the drunk next door so long as he doesn’t light the neighborhood on fire.
But…
The minute you try to change laws, or enter the public arena with your agenda to change teaching in public schools etc. Well, that’s where I will stand up and state my opinion…firmly if need be. This is a great country so may the most votes win.
Much of the turbulence between the homosexual community and people like me is in the political arena where we each have the right to stand up for our values and be counted. If you can sway the voters to legalize homosexual marriage then go for it…but don’t expect me to roll over and play dead.
Remember 3 things…
1. I don’t hate you, I just disagree with you.
2. The most votes wins
3. We will all ultimately answer to God.
where’s the proof for all your baseless allegations, number2? you got any studies to back that up? or are you pulling that bullshit out of your ass, along with your disgustingly fecal appellation?
by the by, you willfully ignorant twit, you don’t put civil rights like marriage equality up for a vote. and it IS marriage equality, NOT homosexual marriage. come on! show us the statistics! thou shalt not bear false witness against your neighbor, mr. holier-than-thou!
@92
Resorting to name calling is proof enough of your character.
Ok, I will provide some health statistics when I get the time.
Also…civil rights is a completely separate issue which is not the topic of our discussion here. Would you like to discuss civil rights as well?
One of the biggest differences between civil rights and homosexual rights is choice. Nobody can choose what race they are…but people choose to be homosexual in the same manner that I choose (or dont choose) to be a murderer.
It’s really quite simple.
@92
Almost forgot…
Don’t try to tell me that “you were born that way and you have no choice”
I wont buy that.
Because then I could say I was born with the strong desire to murder people and you should understand that and have compassion on me and allow me to make laws supporting my behavior since I was born with it.
See the slippery slope we are dealing with here? The CHOICE to be homosexual is NOT the same as being born black or white or asian.
@number2 , wow, just wow. Wasn’t gonna post anything but after reading your post about your godly concerns with homosexual marriage causing health insurance to go up? (post 91) And later you say it’s a choice to be gay……
In your next life you will born gay. That seems to be your only hope in gaining some kind of perspective.
Currently you are a sick and confused individual.
Don’t take any pride in your defense of Christianity on this board. It fell on deaf ears. You’ve only made a fool of yourself.
Well, at least we know that Noah saved some room on the ark for drooling dim-witted troglodytes (see number2 for proof of the species’ continued survival to this day). Whenever someone starts spouting that “I got religion, so I’m totally freaking correct, neener-neener, I can’t hear you” stuff, I make sure my wallet’s still there. And now I’m going to head out and embrace some chosen homosexuality so I can speed up the collapse of the US and push up insurance rates and make everybody miserable. Ta-ta for now.
@96
at least your honest!
@95
How is it that living the gay lifestyle is not a choice? Help me understand.
I get that some people are born with the desire to be gay and I think that is what you are talking about right? I am not contesting that. But it is a choice you make to LIVE OUT that lifestyle right?
Even #88 stated that he tried to live according to what other Christians were telling him but after a long while of suffering he MADE A CHOICE to just give in to what his desires were.
It must be hard I get that…but just because you were born with certain tendencies or desires doesnt make it RIGHT to just live out that desire does it?
Because if that were true then I could live out my desire THAT I WAS BORN WITH to be a murderer…or a thief…or a liar etc etc.
We’d have people running around saying “It’s not my fault I stole that money…I was born a thief I cant help it”
Come on guys (and gals) don’t tell me you can’t see my point of view on this. Don’t tell me that the CHOICE to live out the gay lifestyle is THE SAME as being born black or white or whatever where there is NO CHOICE in the matter.
The great part is…I know my words will fall on some deaf ears and thats OK. But maybe God will move some of you some day.
People…10 miles up the road the bridge is out…I am trying to warn you because I dont want any of you to fall into the ravine and die.
Take ot or leave it…either way thanks to some of you for the constructive conversation.
@everyone
You want some facts about the health risks of the homosexual lifestyle? Well it’s too much info to write down so here are some links:
http://factsaboutyouth.com/posts/health-…
http://noapologies.ca/daily-news/older-h…
http://www.narth.com/docs/whitehead.html
Note the preceeding articles are all from vastly different sources so you can’t say I got them all from christian web sites.
It’s common knowledge in the general medical community that the homosexual lifestyle is harmful. Whoever thinks that insurance rates and the like wont go up if gay marriage is legalized and as more gay couples enter the mainstream is really ignoring the facts.
Wow! I’m really surprised any SPU students spoke out about Haven. It’s kinda dangerous to stand up for yourself or your peers at SPU, even after you’ve graduated.
I don’t know if anyone saw this article in SPU’s student newspaper-http://www.thefalcononline.com/article.php?id=5840
It’s about how an administrator used the newspaper’s need for a new server to try and get control over the Falcon’s archived news content. The article shows how things at SPU work.
Even though the Falcon article mentions a meeting between Falcon editor Evi Sztajno and Vice President of Academic Affairs Les Steele, what it doesn’t tell you is that in the meeting, Steele totally threatened to ruin Evi’s future career in Journalism if she didn’t do what he said. That’s not really a secret or anything. Steele threatened Evi in front of everyone there. People say Evi had a nervous breakdown and had to drop out of school for a while because of it.
I’m not sure what happened to the Falcon archives, but Evi somehow managed to graduate from SPU and I think she found a job at KOMO radio.
facts about youth: run by the american college of pediatricians: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Co…
NARTH: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_As…
No Apologies:
http://www.religiousrightalert.ca/2010/0…
zero credibility, pal. do you actually know any LGBT people? do you know any gay families? obviously not.
@98
Hey, I did a bit of research on your sources, and I have to say that your sentence: “Note the preceeding articles are all from vastly different sources so you can’t say I got them all from christian web sites.” is bullshit.
Facts about youth is a project of the American College of Pediatricians, whose founder, Dr. Joseph Zanga, has described ACP as being a group “with Judeo-Christian, traditional values…”
No Apologies was easier with the about page on their web site clearly stating: “No Apologies is the media ministry of ChristianGovernance.”
NARTH, however, claims to be secular, but I pretty sure that’s bullshit. First red flag, their headquarters are located at the Thomas Aquinas Psychological Clinic. Secondly, they have a page devoted to Theological Issues. They also have close ties to many conservative christian groups.
Finally, of the two “science” groups that you have listed, both are essentially fringe groups whose membership is tiny compared to more respected organizations.
A few final words. Don’t say that you don’t hate gay people because that’s just not true. You hate them, and you just can’t admit that to yourself. “I don’t hate gay people, but…” is the new “I’m not racist, but…” Please don’t take this as an attack, because it’s not. It is simply the truth.
@101
Well I do believe there is a difference between disagreeing with a behavior vs simply hating the entire person.
If you say that I hate you then thats your opinion and you are entitled to it but consider this so you can at least understand where I am coming from:
I have kids and they do things that I disagree with yet I still love them. When they do wrong things I correct them and we move on…if they defy me and continue to do the wrong thing then I will presist with my correction taking any measure necessary to correct the problem.
But ultimately I still love my kids.
So please…I dont even know you…and you dont know me. Lets just keep the hate comments targeted appropriately like this:
I hate (if you will) the behavior of homosexuality and yes I think it is wrong.
I do not hate you as a person and in fact we may actually get along with most other things etc.
If you don’t like Ketchup do you hate all people who do like it?
If you are homosexual do any of your parents disagree with your choices but still love you? I would suspect so…and if my son chose to be homosexual I would disagree with him etc but I would still love him.
Just be honest when you say stuff about me instead of unfairly blanket labeling me.
@98 again
Regarding my sources…
Yes I was in a hurry so I pulled those off the internet quickly.
If you did your own research I bet you could find similar information from a source you find more credible. There is ALOT of information out there about this issue and if you want to just discount it all and throw it out I think you are ignoring the facts.
@101 above…i keep messing that up!
It’s said there’s no such thing as bad publicity. So here’s a hearty FUCK YOU to the STRANGER for providing this homophobic, self-righteous prick with a forum to spout his hate speech.
Hatey-Hatey Christians: You don’t know me.
Our country is in a lot of trouble if guys like this are running its universities!