Definite article somehow vague.

Perfect response. At the age of 47, I now cringe at how much I thought I was making life-long decisions at the age of 20. Nothing in my life looks remotely like I imagined back then. I wish I had learned earlier that you can never hold on to anything tightly.

Sounds like excellent advice.

Glad the LW has moved on, and moving on means it's not your job to save him.

I'd say if there's even a chance the LW might not follow Dan's advice not to fuck him, then make sure you're never, ever alone together. Don't walk him to the car, don't take the same elevator alone together, etc.

" All fucking Matt in his current state will get you, BBB, is seeing yourself cast as the evil gay villain in his stupid immorality play. He'll blow you then he'll blame you—blow you, blame you, blow you, blame you—until he succeeds in making you as miserable as he is."

Eesh,yeah. You're not the boyfriend, you're SATAN'S MINION, forever tempting him to "sin" and "backslide" in the overdramatic play that is his life.

(If anybody's scratching their head over @1, the original post header was SL Letter of the Day: The. Mudede-esque repair-without-acknowledgment applied. S'awright.)

But I don't think BBB should "[s]end your gay ex-boyfriend a copy of Bishop Gene Robinson's terrific book..."—controlling parents may well open the package, and then the feces will impact the overhead rotary air-circulation apparatus.

Consider Dan's oft-repeated advice that kids in fear of their parents should not come out (or be inadvertently outed) until they're fully educated and living independently. Get the book and save it for when you're both back on campus, and hand it off when you're at the coffeehouse or something.

Dan's advice is perfect, but with rob!'s addition of waiting until he's away from his parents and back at school before you give him the book and back away. (Then say a prayer for him.)

I believe the point was that he shouldn't keep meeting up with the guy if that was going to be the outcome. That, and he can always send it to the dude's dorm or notify the dude beforehand.

Along with Gene's book, include "Loving Someone Gay" by Don Clark.

Matt is poison at this time in his life. He is probably hot and that's why the LW was probably putting up with it initially. Stay away and get a BF who is out. Don't be afraid to take him to school events.

Perfect, perfect response from Dan, not only for the self-hating Christian gay but for the LW. He needed a jolt from all this "I hurt for him so much" emotional bullshit that is understandable but definitely not helpful.

I think LW sounds like a very caring, empathetic and generous person.

Aww, you've "already moved on". You're totally over this guy, the first guy you've ever been with, who dumped you three weeks ago. And the only reason your heart hurts for him and you weep at his words and you fiercely resolve to be the best damn friend you can be...... is out of CONCERN for him and his closeted little heart.

Because you're totally over him.

Right. You're not over him, kiddo, and it's going to take a while before you feel okay about this again. But that's normal. It just means that in the meantime it is gonna take Herculean effort to stay out of his life and his pants, to remember why it's not a good idea to become his BFF or fuck his brains out or a confusing swirly sundae combination of the two.

Just remember: Dan is right on this one. Your heart and brain will deceive you. Do not trust them and do not bury yourself in this guy's shit because NO GOOD CAN COME OF IT.

Religion poisons everything.

I've never understood people who romanticize youth. BTW, this is the second time you've fucked up my day this week, Dan- the idiot judge in Billings, Montana being the first.

send him the book, they're at the same College. Hell send him "Uncommon Calling" by Chris Glaser if he is all that down with the Christianists. E-mail him that youtube link for Matthew Vines Homosexuality and the Bible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OiDrbipW…

That said, Dan is right Don't Fuck Him, No Sex of Any Kind.

Dan, why do you think it's a good idea to reinforce the delusion of god's existence?

Because it's useless to say "There is no God" to a person of faith in crisis.

Dear LW - There is nothing wrong with Mr Savage's response or his proposed course of action. I have something a little more ambitious to offer if you're up to it.

But there are little things to clear up first. How big is the experience gap between you two? It's not clear whether you were coping with your guilty feelings the same way he was. Also, noting the same point as mentioned in #12, for someone staking out such grand emotional territory, so quickly to be over a real love comes across as unworthy.

While there's nothing wrong with dialing it back as suggested, especially if that's what you need to do for yourself, what isn't mentioned is that in that case he'll almost certainly just write you off as someone too prejudiced against religion to be worth giving a hearing. Nothing is wrong with that path. But there is another path.

If it really was love (or at least if you want to tell yourself it was twenty years from now), can you give him a semester, or half a semester, and then re-evaluate? You offer your platonic friendship on his terms and support him as best you can. He doesn't try to convert you, does you the favour of reading one book with as much of an open heart as he can muster, and accepts that it would be too painful for you to boink someone not your boyfriend. In the advanced version, you can eventually express mild appreciation for others along the lines of Patrick Tisbourne to Ralph Odmore about Williamson minor in An Accidental Man, but that's not essential. During the whole time, you remain as supportive as possible of whatever fantastical course he charts for his life, and you keep things chaste. If you can last out a semester of this, you ought to have a better idea of things when it concludes, and, whatever happens, at least at age forty you won't reproach yourself with not having been sufficiently giving.

This is not exactly what happened with my Positively Last Boyfriend, but he was straight-presenting and Mormon when we met. I was not looking and it wasn't strategic, but we'd been close for about the length of a semester when he took to pursuit. He's now quite happily and openly out a few years after moving on, and makes me quite proud of him.

By some running shoes and run the fuck away from that guy. He is bad news and will drag you down like a drowning swimmer. Seriously, dude. Run!

The guy basically told you the entire current Mormon response to gayness. "We all have a burden and yours just happens to be gayness; being gay isn't a sin, only gay sex (or any gay activity, really) is a sin so never do that and you'll be golden; the best cure for a case of the queers is to get hetero married and have kids -- problem solved!!!" His self-hate goes deep. But there's hope. It'll take a long, long time, but there is hope. It's also not LW's job to help him get there. That's the kind of shit you only figure out after you realize how full of shit the people who feed you this crap are.

Believing that God "challenged" you with a "special burden to overcome," like a divine personal trainer giving you a customized exercise routine, is more optimistic but not substantially different than believing that the erupting volcano is full of angry demons who are pissed that your tribe hasn't sacrificed enough virgins lately.

Totally with Dan on this one. In fact, I'd really avoid the guy as much as I politely could, mostly because whether anything physical happens with him or not this guy is likely to want to spend time with the LW just to 'challenge himself' by hanging out with someone he loves and hates himself for loving. (I know Dan suggests as such, but I'm also offering that specific context)

What they all said.

Don't spend any more time with this guy than you have to. Give him the book, your best wishes, then go find some nice, self-accepting gay boy who can suck your dick without feeling bad about himself afterwards.

If this guy ever comes around and needs support coming out then sure, be there for him. But otherwise stay away.

If nothing else remember, he has pretty much told you that every time he was with you he felt "dirty" afterwards. But he led you on and let you think there was something more while you were at school, but only told you all this when you were apart.

He's deluding himself and using you. Keep your distance.

Be distant. But be kind, in your thoughts and words.

Grieve. Process. And go find yourself a proper gay boyfriend. And be happy.

I hate to disagree with Dan about the book but as Matt is in his 20's and in college I doubt he will crack the thing open.

I would recommend you send him the link to the excellent blog by John Shore; a fan of Dan's and vise verse. John in his own witty and heartfelt ways covers the numerous issues of Christianity and Homosexuality. I'm a non Christian and find John's views well worth the read. http://johnshore.com/

I do agree with Dan about distancing yourself from Matt. As he sees you as the source of his conflict any advice you give may make Matt think you're turning him to the "dark side". In addition given the current situation every time you see Mat will only result in your pain.

@ 27, I read books all the time when I was in college and my 20's. Moreso than my assigned books.

vennominon@19, thanks for sharing a bit of that heart-warming story! Glad to hear it ended well.

In my experience... I'm old, first started the endless coming process in 1970... men in the closet mostly need to witness the happy lives of out gay men. Eventually, they can't stand not having a decent life for themselves. Let him see you -- even from a distance -- having a great life.

People don't fall in love in one month.

@ 31, they do when they're young, or if it's for the first time if they aren't so young.

@22: It's also (as Dan pointed out) extremely narcissistic. Self-destruction feels gooooood to some people, while it's culturally different I do wonder if it's just another way to express a personality disorder.

Reading this SLLOTD reminded me of this classic Mr Show sketch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFo8NGO4n…

OMG, this brings back memories two decades old where I could have been the LW in a straight-ish version. I met a bi guy who came on to me with tremendous confidence and I was intrigued and turned on. He said he was Catholic AND Pagan. Imagine my shock - and disgust - to find out months later that EVERY TIME WE HAD SEX he went to confession. Sorry, bub, but sleeping with me is NOT a sin.

My situation may resemble the LW's dilemma only slightly, but the religious dogma is still the same. Pleasure must always result in guilt and require atonement. Bah humbug!

@35: "He said he was Catholic AND Pagan"

That really should've been your first warning!

Everybody else here has given some great advice. Just want to second the "don't fuck him" thing or he'll project his crap onto you. I hope you find a nice guy who respects you enough to be out as well.

@27 - MfD is right, I read a ton too at that age, including books about being gay so I could help process the shit I was going through when I was coming out. There are much better resources available now and there's no reason to think that he wouldn't crack the book open and skim at the very least. Youthful curiosity almost demands it.

@31 - I completely disagree. I was head over in heels in love with my man in a month and we've been together six years. It's not the same depth as what we have now, but it wasn't any less love.

Maybe I just haven't talked to enough people, but everyone I've met who claims they are in love so quickly really isn't in love, they are just infatuated. The guy in the letter says he is in love, yet they just break apart their relationship in an instant. Maybe I'm arguing over semantics here, but it seems like real love requires a deeper commitment based on actually knowing the person you're in love with.

@38: Love is incredibly stupid until proven worthwhile, so people do in fact feel the emotion deeply and quickly- it's not something that requires justification or outside verification. It is such an intangible subjective thing that applying qualifiers like "real" is an exercise in futility.

@37: Mazel tov on six years with your guy, Pridge : )

Perfect answer. BBB can't fight this fight for his friend, just like no one could have fought it for him. He doesn't deserve to be treated like he's poison.

I want to echo everything everyone else is saying to BBB, with this thrown in: Be honest with yourself. If part of the reason you want to "be there for" the guy you fell for last semester--if a BIG part of the reason--is that you're hoping that by being near you, seeing how self-accepting you are, by having as much fun as you two might be able to have again with each other, he will want to get back together, you must not, under any circumstances, "be there" for him.

I know you want to help him, but you shouldn't put yourself at so much emotional risk. Think of it as the instructions on a plane to put your own oxygen mask on before helping someone who appears to be more vulnerable than yourself. As you try to help him feel happier, you will undoubtedly feel worse. Maybe someday he will ditch the idea that he is being tested by god and either reject such a dick of a god or god altogether. Hopefully someday he will be out and happy, and proud of who is is, accepting and accepted, loving, and loved by himself, his family, his god, his friends, his boyfriend or husband. BUT IT ISN'T YOUR JOB TO FROGMARCH HIM THERE RIGHT NOW.

You sound like a great guy. You deserve to find a boyfriend who appreciates you.

As for the "too soon to fall in love," thing, not that this letter mentions "love" I don't think there can be strict time formulas for falling in love, for determining love from infatuation, which just may be the first phase of something which, if it continues, ripens into more fully-fledged love, or for getting over someone. Each person and each situation, as well as each couple's issues, chemistry, intensity, are different.

More importantly, there's no point to telling someone that the way he feels isn't real. It's real to him.

Stop responding and mail it to his dorm room

A mulligan for Ms Cute. [ In the short time we had, we really fell in love.]

I'll agree with most of the rest of the paragraph; my only point of dissent was more aesthetic than anything else. Given the sweeping dramatic style the LW displays, genuinely being over Mr Godbotherer would be a bit of a jarring note in his character, whereas it's almost a bit sweet as an attempt at the Falsehood Chivalrous, even if more dangerous.

Much of the day I've been speculating about the letter Mr Savage will soon receive from the hypothetical new boyfriend. It would seem prudent to wait for the ex's first crisis before rushing into another relationship. It's not as if it ought to take that long to occur, and at least the LW will be able to have confidence in what he can handle.

Mr. Ven: Not being a golf player, I think I missed some nuance in your response to me. I get a do-over? As in I got something wrong, but you're giving me the chance to correct it? Oh, the fact that BBB says he and Matt did fall in love. Yes, I saw this initially, forgot it, didn't see it when I responded to TheLastComment's statement @31 about love's timelines, and then saw it shortly after my comment got posted.

I find this time table thing comes up here on SLOG all the time: there's always some "rule." There's some arbitrary formula for figuring out the "allowable" age difference between members of a couple, for instance, how long a couple should be together before they can declare themselves to be in love, or get married or engaged to be married. The SLOG commentariat seems to be big on "shoulds" and "you can'ts" and defined limits set by other people on emotional responses. I don't understand it.

A concept that's become quite important in nursing is that pain is defined by the patient. The nurse or doctor can't tell someone, "that doesn't hurt that much." Though it seems obvious that different people respond to stimuli differently and have different pain thresholds, it's still something that has to be taught in school: you don't get to define someone else's experience of pain. (Even the phrase "pain threshold" is problematic, because it suggests that some people are just "better" at toughing it out). I don't know if humans like rules or simply being able to tell others that they're wrong.

@46 - People can do what they want, but the exception doesn't disprove the rule.

Certainly, people with big age differences can make a great couple. People who meet and immediately get married can end up staying together for life in happy relationships.

Anything that anyone has ever said you shouldn't do, even if it is generally true, has exceptions. Those exceptions don't make the advice wrong. Advice is general. In general big age differences don't work (there have been studies to bear this out. I recall one that showed that a six year difference has the best chance of success). That doesn't mean that everyone in a relationship with a big age difference is doomed to failure.

Dan has said numerous times about his advice, and the same goes to the comments posted by the rest of us, that it is just that, advice, not binding arbitration.

The "rules" you are talking about are the experiences, observations and things that work for the people expressing them. They aren't hard and fast rules that predict outcomes with 100% accuracy and I don't think anyone is suggesting they are.

But if you see a lot of people with a lot of dating experience warn that something like a large age difference, or getting hung up on a closet case, is unlikely to end well, you might want to listen. It doesn't mean you can't make up your own mind, or that your case will not end well if you choose to ignore that, but it does give you an indication of the odds of success in general, and you can then make your decision on what to do with a more informed idea of what your are up against.

Personally when I changed my dating habits to consider the odds of things working out with a person my dating life did a complete turn around for the better. That doesn't mean that everyone just or should do the same, but no matter their choices they should be aware of what they are up against, and if they want to try to buck the odds then more power to them. But one thing that will help them beat the odds is going into it with clear eyes and an understand of what are the possible and likely pitfalls.

That's what all these "rules" and advice are about. Not telling someone what they must do, but what our experiences has told us is the most likely course to result in a positive outcome.

Nocutename @ 46 for the win (especially after the weekly column this past week that ran to over 300 comments): "Slog commentariat." I love it.

well aren't we a bunch of Christian-hating bigots in this ring!

The kid (Matt) isn't having narcissistic delusions. He's believing in what he was taught to believe and it's a miserable place to be. See, God tests everyone, not just Matt, so everyone has to fight their own personal battle, at least this is what the scriptures say.

I think it's shameful of Dan and of the lot of you readers to paint him as evil because he has Christian beliefs that are conflicting with what his heart is telling him is right. I think the lot of you should try and have a little compassion for a pair of young kids stuck in a very sad situation.

Poor PinkieB and her fellow persecuted Christians who make up the vast majority of the population of the US.

No one called the boy evil. He is deluded and hanging around him will be bad for the OP. That's not evil, it's just the truth.

Trust me, we all feel sorry for the kid for having been twisted by what ever religious indoctrination he was forced to undergo as a child. I don't think anyone hates him. But as far as the OP is concerned this guy is bad news just the same.

I have compassion for him, but he isn't the one who wrote in to Dan, now is he? It's the guy he has been dicking around, misleading and basically using that wrote in to Dan, and it is to him that the advice is directed.

If the other boy wants to write in I will not hesitate to express my sympathy for having been twisted into such a state by the whims of his parents and community without regard for his actual well being and future. And my advice to him would be to either find another, gay friendly, church and stop trying to be something he is not, or just abandon Christianity all together, which overall I honestly consider the better option.

And then just like the OP here, he can take that advice or ignore it, and the consequences are his own.

Dear PinkieB, I don't believe you, and I am just being honest.

What? Only Christians are allowed to express their sincerely held beliefs? Sorry, the road goes both ways. If Christians are allowed to fuck up their kids like the letter writer's ex, then the rest of us are allowed to express our opinions of what they do.

That they do it in the name of religion does not give them a free pass or make them immune to criticism.

And being called an ass by an imbecile like you is actually a compliment. I'd be worried if you agreed with me or liked me. If you did I would probably have to re-evaluate my whole life.

But also... BBB doesn't need to be so heartbroken that this guy is going to live the rest of his life this way. He might well come around in a year or two. As BBB said himself, it took him a while to accept himself, it might just take Matt that bit longer.