I’m glad Lindy West loves herself and her body, and I’m happy that she’s done with shame, and I think she’s beautiful and charismatic and hilarious and I always have. I take issue, however, with Lindy’s setting me up as some sort of boogey/straw man, attributing prejudices to me that I do not feel, and attempting to purge her fatshame by fathateshaming me. Arguing that the obesity epidemic should be off limits for discussion on Slog—or that Stranger writers, a notoriously snarky bunch, must slip on kid gloves before we sit down at our computers to post about this issue and this issue alone (really? at a publication that’s joked about child rape, AIDS, and the Holocaust?)—because “fat people know they’re fat” is simply ridiculous.

There are two things I’d like to clear up before I really get going…

Thing 1: I’m not Lindy West’s “boss.” I didn’t hire her, I don’t have the authority to fire her, I don’t edit her. Lindy’s post was courageous and it was inspiring—until the ad hominem attacks began—but it wasn’t standing-up-to-the-boss brave. Because I’m not her boss. I could probably get her fired, I suppose, but I wouldn’t try to do that, because she’s brilliant and funny and, even if she disagrees with me, even if we come to rhetorical blows on Slog, we all argue all the time on Slog. What would Slog be without our intramural battles? What’s different about Lindy’s post is the personal nature of Lindy’s attack. She’s accusing me of bigotry and malice—she’s accusing me of attacking her personally, which I’ve never done and would not do.

Thing 2: I was out of email, cell, and Internet range all weekend, starting Friday afternoon, and didn’t get a chance to really sit down and read Lindy’s post until late last night, and that’s why I’m only just responding to it now.

Okay! Let the record show that I love that Lindy loves Lindy—everybody loves Lindy and so should Lindy—but I’m not so in love with the way Lindy used this quote from a Savage Love column I wrote more than seven years ago:

I am thoroughly annoyed at having my tame statements of fact—being heavy is a health risk; rolls of exposed flesh are unsightly—characterized as “hate speech.”

That sounds bad floating out there in space like that, all removed from its original context and shit.

That’s one sentence from a column that came at the end of a series of columns—a series of columns from 2004—that was not about the general unsightliness of fat people. It was about the late, unlamented fad for skin-tight, low-rise jeans coupled with midriff-baring tops. (The columns are here, here, and here.) The columns weren’t just critical of overweight or obese women in low-rise jeans and midriff-baring tops, but of women who didn’t have the right “proportions” to pull off that look; “most women” didn’t look good in these getups, not just fat women. (Men came in for some slamming too.) In its original context the remark was not a reference to fat people’s bodies generally, or a suggestion that fat people didn’t have a right to live in their own bodies without shame (or wear those stupid jeans if they wished), but to a particular kind of pants that do not flatter most bodies, pants that created and exposed unsightly rolls of flesh on fat women, not-so-fat women, and not-at-all-fat women alike, pants that have mercifully been consigned to the dustbin of fashion history. I suspect that Lindy was casting around looking for the most damning possible sentence, found that one, and tossed it up on Slog. It’s that or believe that Lindy was intentionally dishonest and manipulative. (And, yes, it could’ve been better put. Allow me to amend the record: “I am thoroughly annoyed at having my tame statements of fact—being heavy is a health risk; the rolls of exposed flesh created by low-rise jeans/high-rise tops are unsightly—characterized as ‘hate speech.'” And thank God no one wears those fucking things anymore.)

As for the rest of the evidence of my supposed bigotry that Lindy links to in her post—sometimes snarky posts of mine linking to news stories about the obesity epidemic; links to research that gives lie to the diet-and-exercise-have-nothing-to-do-with-the-obesity-epidemic lie pushed by dishonest, vindictive, and codependent fat activists; a post of mine featuring a Tim Minchin song that I labeled “brutal” and “bullying” but whose title I happen to agree with strongly (can we all agree that people shouldn’t feed donuts to their obese children?); discussions in a book I wrote a decade ago about the crazy fat people at the NAAFA convention (there are crazy fat people out there, Lindy, just as there are crazy gay people out there; be careful who you crawl into bed now that you’re a “brave” hero to the FA movement for standing up to your bigoted “boss”)—the bigotry in my posts exists only in Lindy’s imagination. (Okay, I totally crossed the line when I made fun of Kate Harding’s arms, which I’ve never even seen (they could be made of steel for all I know), and for that I apologize. I could dig up a few hundred emails from FA movement folks calling me a cocksucker, if it that would help balance the scales.)

Take Lindy’s reaction to my “Ban Fat Marriage” post. Opponents of marriage equality in Iowa claim they want to ban gay marriage because gay men are unhealthy. By that logic, I wrote, “fat marraige” would also have to be banned in Iowa. Did I mean that fat people shouldn’t be allowed to marry? Of course not. Does pointing out that there are a lot of fat people in Iowa—30% of the population of that state is obese—somehow “stigmatize” fat people? Um, no, not unless the existence of fat people is somehow inherently stigmatizing. I did point out that there are health risks associated with being obese—I had to in order to make the point that Republican legislators in Iowa are bigots—and you know what? There are health risks associated with being obese. There are also, as I’ve written until my fingers were numb, health risks associated with being gay and sexually active. (They’re not the ones the bigots in Iowa are talking up; more on those health risks in a minute). Citing the prevalence of obesity in Iowa and mentioning the health risks associated with obesity to make a point about bigotry isn’t by itself bigotry. So what was up with Lindy’s reaction to that post? I think this reader is on to something:

I read your “Ban Fat Marriage” post. Applying the arguments for position X to analogous position Y in order to show that both arguments are spurious and indefensible is a standard and often effective tactic. Perhaps as a matter of discretion, you left out the “ick factor” that is often applied to gay (man-on-man, that is) sex, which could easily go with fat-on-fat sex as well, but when I mentioned the article to my spouse, I threw that in. Then I saw Lindy West’s reactions “RE: Ban Fat Marriage” and “Hello, I am Fat.” Apparently, Lindy isn’t very good with reading comprehension, which is kind of startling since she writes for a living. Or maybe she suspends her reading comprehension and reasoning skills whenever the subject of “fat” is broached. I’d wager the latter is the case.

I’m going to start numbering these things, à la Lindy, because I wanna get through this and return to my regularly scheduled life:

1. Lindy cites that particular quote, above, as proof that I’m a bigot. She claims to know what I think about fat people and how I feel about fat people and leaps from there to claims that I think fat people are gross and that I don’t want fat people touching me (no more hugging my relatives, I guess), which she then condemns me for. Ad hominemineminem. (I’m on an airplane sitting next to a fat person RIGHT NOW, Lindy! A fat person I’m sharing my NYT with! I even let her do the crossword! Because I HATE!) It’s hard to disprove a charge of bigotry without resorting to some-of-my-best-friends-are—and on this subject I can resort to I-once-was-myself (relevant email from my brother after the jump)—but I’m not an anti-fat bigot ,and one piece of material evidence I could point to might be all the people of varying sizes that I have hired or had a hand in hiring over the years. The first thing I said to Lindy when we met in person wasn’t “Unsightly! Unsightly!” but “Your film reviews are amazing—we’ve got to get you on staff.” If that’s bigotry… (Discrimination in the workplace is a huge problem for the obese… but not at the Stranger, despite the place being partly run by a fatpohbic bigot. Weird.)

2. I never claimed to be concerned about Lindy’s health. The science is in: obesity has serious potential health consequences. Which is not to say that all the obese folks are unhealthy and all the skinny bitches are healthy. Individual results may vary. But being seriously overweight is likely to harm a person’s health. That said…

I have always maintained that people have a right to live their lives and pursue their pleasures, wherever they find them, even if there are potential negative health consequences, even at the risk of shortening their lives. There are health consequences to being obese—the First Lady agrees, Lindy, go get her!—but like I wrote at the end of the gluttony chapter in Skipping Towards Gomorrah, we should all have the right to live however we damn well please without being stigmatized or discriminated against. But we don’t have a right to demand that other people pretend that there aren’t health consequences involved with being obese, with smoking, with eating meat, with skiing, and, yes, with being gay and sexually active. Sexually active gay men have much higher rates of sexually transmitted infections, higher rates of HIV transmission, higher rates of drug and alcohol abuse (sometimes that drug and alcohol abuse is rooted in self-hatred, which the wider society is responsible for creating; sometimes it’s rooted in destructive community norms, which gay men are responsible for creating and perpetuating). I’ve written about the risks gay men face—the potential negative health consequences of being gay and sexually active—until my fingers were ready to fall off. Was that bigoted of me?

3. I could give a shit about health-insurance premiums. I support a government-run, single-payer health care system, one that spreads everyone’s risks around—the obese, the gay, the smoker, the skier, etc. I’ve no doubt linked to stories about the health care costs associated with the obesity epidemic because, you know, it’s an aspect of the obesity-epidemic story and I’m interested in this story. (I’m a sex-and-relationship columnist; I could no more avoid questions about bodies and health and size than I could avoid questions about blowjobs and assfucking and cunnilingus.) I believe that the extra burden the obese place on our health care system should be borne without complaint just as the extra burden the HIV-positive place on the health-care system should. (And, hey, have I mentioned that my seventy-year-old dad is a smoker and on Medicare?) But there’s nothing bigoted about encouraging the obese to take steps to improve their health—that usually means making the kinds of changes that lead to weight loss—any more than there’s something bigoted about encouraging gay men to use condoms, fuck fewer people, stop using meth, etc.

4. I’m interested in the obesity epidemic—what causes it, how it got this bad, what we’re going to do about it—and I’m angered by what I perceive to be the dishonestly of many FA movement activists. I think the obesity epidemic is remarkable, which is why I remark on it, and I will continue to remark on it so long as I’m blogging, and I reserve the right to make the odd snarky remark. I will continue to post the links to stories about the obesity epidemic that catch my eye, stories like this that give the lie to the whole lack-of-exercise-has-nothing-to-do-with-it crap pushed by fat-acceptance crowd:

Adult obesity rates rose in 28 states last year, the report says…. Among the [report’s] findings: In a dozen states, more adults reported getting absolutely no regular physical activity beyond their jobs. It’s not likely a coincidence that the fattest state, Mississippi, also has the highest rate of physical inactivity in adults. There was a lot of overlap in the most-obese and least-active lists.

This stuff interests me not just because it pisses off the FA crowd. It’s interesting all on its own.

5. The takeaway from Lindy’s post—once the euphoria of our pleasure in Lindy’s triumph over her self-loathing fades—seems to be this: Fat people already feel bad, so shut up. Reading about obesity reminds fat people they’re fat and they already know they’re fat and feel bad about being fat, so shut up. And diet and exercise never work and even if they worked for you it’s unpossible for a heavy person to keep the weight off so why bother, so shut up. And shut up because your not shutting up is making it harder for fat people not to hate themselves and only after fat people stop hating themselves and lose the shame can they… begin to lose the weight that they can’t actually lose. And shut up.

I find that very confusing and confused.

And finally…

Look, Lindy, I hear you. You don’t like my posts about obesity. You don’t think they’re helpful. They’re not necessarily meant to be helpful. You seem to assume that I post in the hope that fat people will read my posts and drop the weight. That’s not my motivation; neither is shaming fat people. I’m interested in the obesity epidemic and I’m following the news about it and I assume other people are too and I’m posting about it and I’m ticked off about some aspects of it (including, yes, the vitriol that has been aimed at me over the years). And, yes, I believe that people should be fit—fit, not skinny; active, not sticks—not because Fat Is Gross, but because healthy—which doesn’t always translate to skinny—is better than non-healthy. It’s pretty much the same reason why I think people shouldn’t smoke or fuck strangers without protection or play on railroad tracks or smoke meth or vote Republican.

I am not, however, responsible for your shame (RIP). You arrived at my posts with your shame, my posts didn’t create it, and you managed to conquer your shame despite my posts. Good for you. (No snark intended in that “good for you.” Seriously, Lindy, good for you.) If you don’t want to read my posts about this subject—about any subject—just skip ’em.

And finally-for-real-finallyfinallyfinally… if you had written to me at my column seeking my advice about all of this (and I realize you didn’t and I realize that now I’m the one pretending that I can read your thoughts—but, hey, you pretended you could read mine, so looks like we’re even), here’s what I would have to said after reading your letter: It sounds like you’re externalizing an internal conflict about being fat—you’re projecting your anger and self-loathing onto to me, and seeing malice and bigotry where none exists, and perhaps that’s useful because that anger seems to be liberating and motivating. If having your own personal boogeyman on Slog helps you conquer your shame and love your body and this helps you break out of old, self-destructive patterns and habits (you can’t be losing weight now just because your attitude changed), then I’m happy to be your own personal boogeyman. But honestly, Lindy, you don’t need one. You’re stronger than that.

················

Here’s the email from my brother Bill…

When you do have time to respond to Lindy: note how often these people (LW included) use anecdotal evidence and generalize to the Whole World about it. She cannot lose weight dieting, so it’s not possible. Then you might talk about our family.

You were fat as a kid. You started exercising and eating right and voila, you’re not fat.

Other family members, not so much. Post a link to our CHF talk, where I look like fucking buddha for crissakes. if you and I both have genetically preset weights which our bodies just naturally go to, then we’d be roughly similar given our shared genetic backgrounds. But I don’t exercise as much as you do (my biking not withstanding, I haven’t been to a gym in years) and I don’t eat as well as you do and so I’m 20 to 25 lbs overweight.

You and Eddie exercise a lot, eat right and are in good shape.

If they get to generalize anecdotes about themselves, so do you.

The ultimate irony in all of this? I still feel like the fat kid.

473 replies on “Hello, I’m Not the Enemy”

  1. To the tl;dr commenters, I trust you’re devoting your reading energies to Proust or Dostoevsky or Rawls or Nozick or some other likewise tl;mr work. Or something involving angry cats or birds or whatevs. Luckily for you, you won’t have the time to wade through the following.

    ———————————-

    This exchange is the quintessence of a serious, extraordinarily well-articulated discussion (in the internet sense, which is to say public and relatively immediate) of a subject that is important in many, many ways. How often does this sort of thing happen online?

    My gut (biggish but not huge) goes with DS on this one. Having read/listened to him for many years, I’ve not detected a significant anti-fat animus, though I must admit there may be a “dog whistle” effect at work here (i.e. I’m not fat and so don’t hear things that others might). The links LW posts in the “here are some links” part of her post seem all to be situational – DS’s responses to particular problems wherein fat was presented in a problematic way – rather than evidence of systematic anti-fat hate. I can think of more than a few examples when “fat” is raised as an issue by the writer/caller and DS responds thoughtfully and with compassion (e.g. most recently the first call of SLCast 207).

    All of that said, two sentences from LW’s post distress me a bit:

    1. “I don’t have kids, but I pay taxes that fund schools.”

    and

    2. I don’t give a shit what causes anyone’s fatness.

    First off, that taxes-that-fund-schools thing is a positive externality for the childless. Nobody wants to live in neighborhood rife with unemployable late-teen droogs. So, from those of us taking the time and expense to raise non-droog kids, you’re welcome. More to the point though, I think that if LW did have kids she might be more concerned about what causes kids’ fatness. Not to go all anecdotal (though pretty solid research backs me up), but I have two daughters, the oldest being nine. Both are in the same public school. Our nine-year-old was on the school lunch program for a while, in part because it was convenient and in part because it was cheap, really cheap. After a little while, my wife looked into the menu and the various nutritional claims and that was it for school lunches. The fat, sugar, and sodium were staggering – and this from a school that claimed to be aware of these issues and, in fact, was doing reasonably well vs. national averages.

    I look at some of the kids (and in particular girls) in my oldest daughter’s class and it’s not too hard to see the “lard prisons” forming at this incredibly early age. The parents don’t seem to be helping. We’ve had sleepovers the morning after which some young friends were dismayed to learn that there were no Danishes for breakfast. Or bacon.

    So, yeah, I give a shit about what causes people’s fatness, and in particular the under-twelve set. I understand that that there genetic/hormonal factors. My oldest daughter is, right now, what you’d call “chubby,” but she’s likely to be around 6′ tall, so there’s a good chance she lucked out. But she’d likely get a lot chubbier if we let her eat crap and play her Nintendo DS all day. And then A LOT chubbier at college when the only food she knew was crap – a specialty of most college meal plans – and she didn’t think to go swimming or biking or whatever. And then she graduates into a stressful job and why not eat to relax? (I can, from personal experience, attest a bit to that last part)

    I understand that this is not the universal path to bigness/fatness, far from it. But it is one path, and an increasingly broad one in this country.

  2. Sounds like The Agenda is finally unravelling at the seams.

    Women rebelling against being made to look like 14 year old boys to feed the unisex marketing globalism.

    Dan Savage castigating them for not toeing the line.

  3. If obesity is related to deep-seated psychological problems or an explosion in metabolic disorders, what precisely has triggered that in the last few decades and how did it happen?

    Hint: that’s not how it happened. It happened because for the vast majority of us, we’re eating more and exercising less. For the overwhelming majority of fat people, being fat is a choice. There are many things in life we shouldn’t make light of people for – being short, being gay, being disabled. These are all things that AREN’T the result of choices. If you make bad choices – eating too much/exercising too little over a long period of time, wearing ridiculous clothes, getting bad tattoos, getting a DUI – be prepared to live with the consequences and Deal With It.

  4. Oh Dan… wouldn’t it be easier to just admit that you’ve said hurtful things, try to improve your attitude, and move on?

    Seriously, I used to be fat too, so I see where you’re coming from on this. You internalized all that hatred of fat, and apparently that’s still what’s fueling your desire to stay thin. Well, whatever works I guess, but that set of tactics is deeply self-destructive for some of us. For example: I was fat, then in my teens I got thin, then I got anorexic. I used to exercise until I got lightheaded. I had to crawl back home from a 2 hour run once because I hadn’t eaten for nearly a day.

    You know what was really important to getting over that eating disorder? Letting myself get chubby again! I got back up to a size 10 and realized I was still cute, and much happier than at size 4. I drank and ate and had a great time, and didn’t watch my weight at all.

    Now I’ve started exercising, (just low-impact stuff because running triggers me to starve myself) and eating very carefully, and life is even better. But you know what? 7 years after I got away from anorexia, I had to go back to therapy because I figured out my self-hatred was still in there somewhere, just buried. When I bought a new pair of pants that was 2 sizes smaller than my regular size, my euphoria over my weight loss suddenly turned into a COMPULSION TO STARVE MYSELF. Suddenly, improvement and health were my enemies, because they made me look at my body through that anorexic lens of “better, but still horribly fat”.

    My therapist is now making me keep a food diary to make sure that I don’t fall back off the anorexia wagon as I try to get fit. I’m not allowed to weigh or measure myself because the numbers are an instant trigger toward my old anorexic goals.

    So please watch out with the tough love on this subject, Dan. You never know what tofu-eating, bike-commuting, Pilates-doing part of your audience is going to be wincing and compulsively pinching the fat on their sides in response to some offhand comment about muffin tops. Self hate can motivate, but it can also destroy.

  5. Oh, and I don’t see you as “the enemy” Dan, and I doubt Lindy does either. You’re a great, thoughtful commentator and advice-giver, so we know you can do better on this issue. I for one am being demanding because I like your work and feel you could improve. So the defensiveness is pretty uncalled for

  6. Canuck@158 You know, if somebody said that smokers had the most unsightly disgusting habit, I’d agree. But, if they said that and then said they weren’t biased against them or didn’t hate them, I’d be questioning their sanity. Wouldn’t you? I think smoking is a dirty digusting habit, and I won’t say that I am not biased against them just because I have smoking friends. I won’t even date a smoker, just as Dan won’t date a fat dude. But Dan says, “I’m do care about fat people…look, I even hired one!”

    I don’t think Lindy is telling Dan to take fat off his discussion table. But, she is saying that he needs to either alter his rhetoric (by putting on kid’s gloves as he put it), or own up to his participation in fat shaming. Just as one should own up to it with smoker shaming.

    @198 What conversation? The one about Dan getting called on his bias? Of course nobody is hosting that conversation. That’d be silly.

  8. I presume Dan just forgot to put a poll at the end of his post. I’d click on the “Dan is right” button. Lindy clearly has a lot of emotion around this topic, and I think she lashed out at Dan unfairly.

  10. on the other hand….about every three years, some women’s magazine like Cosmo goes and puts out a BBW issue where they claim that women are “becoming more comfortable with their bodies” and that “plus sizes” can be fashionable.

    so, us guys roll our eyes and wait…until next month when they have some hot bikini babe with a flat stomach and size 2 behind.

  11. It makes sense that people would be wondering why so many Stranger staffers cheered Lindy’s post.

    Who would dare speak for anyone else after all this, but for myself:

    I cheered Lindy’s post for many reasons, the most basic being that it was fucking great writing, in form and substance. Ballsy, raw, funny, painful, wonderful.

    I agree with Constant that Michael Wells @121 is the reaction to read in this thread. And as Michael @121 said, Lindy’s post was the same kind of naked, fearless gut punch that Dan has so wonderfully delivered himself, so many times, to tremendous effect and great admiration—including from me.

    Who’s most right on this particular issue? I actually do care, but I care more that people understand how rare it is to have this kind of talent tangling, and how lucky we are that Dan and Lindy both have the sort of compulsion/curse/conscience that makes them Slog it out.

    Thank you, Dan, for this post—and for this whole damn forum.

  12. Hey Dan, I have no idea if you’ll even read this or not, but I just have to say this.

    I really don’t think you have anything to prove to people who know you, read you regularly and aren’t dealing with unresolved personal issues of their own. *cough* I think you’re generally perfectly fair in your columns – you don’t pull punches and sugar-coat shit, and that’s a GOOD thing. It’s that straight-shooting that makes you occasionally vulnerable to people who take snippets of what you say out of context to back up their own personal feelings of victimization (asexuals, bisexuals, fat people, the list goes on…), but I hope you never change because it’s part of what makes you so awesome.

    Frankly, as far as I’m concerned all this says a lot more about Lindy (and people’s need to find a target for their frustrations with how society treats their particular “group” – however unfair) than it does about you. I don’t think you did anything wrong, and none of this hysteria is going to change that fact. Yeah, maybe you could have phrased some things better, but so fucking what? People don’t read Savage Love or SLOG for its sensitivity or delicate turn of phrase, they read it because it’s good advice told in a direct and no-nonsense way.

    I guess what I’m trying to say is please try to ignore the band-wagoners, drama queens and people trying to treat you as a voodoo doll for their personal hangups – all this will pass, and I hope you won’t let it get to you. You’re a good guy, you help a lot of people, and nobody with anything worth saying can do it without offending a few people along the way. The vast majority of your fans understand that, and I hope you do too.

  15. C’mon, dudes. Both of you did great things for humanity in 2010. Now shake hands, have a heart-to-heart away from all of us, compare notes, and see what you can accomplish in 2011.

  16. Awesome response Dan.

    As a bigger person myself, I’ve never felt hurtful vitriol from your words about the obesity epidemic, despite the fact that I enjoy being a fat guy at 5’6″ & 250.

    I accept who I am, and unlike Lindy, I don’t want to change me, because I love me. And because of your work, I know that I will find someone who loves me as well.

    Hell, I may already have…lol…

  17. So, missing a piece of Seattle, I decided to go to the Slog, and, something is apparently up Dan Savage and Lindy West’s asses again. This time, it’s each other and something having to do with fat people. And I know my opinion does not really matter, but I just had to say: Dan Savage can be funny on occasion, but is usually a jerk who was a marginally successful theater type who gives advice that is taken seriously, even though he isn’t some sort of trained doctor or lettered scholar. He started out a joke columnist for the Onion, and now everyone takes him serious, including major mainstream media. And he considers himself VERY IMPORTANT. Thus he fits in at The Stranger perfectly.

    And Lindy West is a twat. I have stated this many times. And I’ll plug in a million links to back it up. And she considers herself so funny and brilliant and…well, she fits in at The Stranger perfectly.

    You both DO care about your targeted audience, who thinks you are brilliant, funny, sophisticated, talented, beautiful, and most of all, always has the right opinion. And you see that audience that you care most about every day when you brush your teeth.

    There.

    Now move along, folks. There’s bigger things in the world then two self important “writers” having an argument in public.

  18. 95% – that’s how often diets fail, ie. long-term weight loss is not achieved. YOU are the exception, not those of us who have tried and tried and tried and are still fatty fatty fat fats.

  21. First, an introduction. I’m a fat lady (with a pretty face, ha), BMI in the 30’s, clothing size 16-18. I exercise a lot but I overeat under stress and that’s how I stay fat.

    Dan, I wonder if you realize that what you said here about gay men’s self-destructive habits applies almost word-for-word to fat people. I quote (from #2):

    “Sexually-active gay men have… higher rates of drug and alcohol abuse (some of that drug and alcohol abuse is rooted in self-hatred, which the wider society is responsible for creating; sometimes it’s rooted in destructive community norms, which gay men are responsible for.”

    I think you know that this is true if you replace “gay men” with “fatties” and “drug and alcohol abuse” with “overeating”, but it’s not clear so I want to make sure. I ask because I’ve been having an argument with myself for a few years now, and I still can’t decide. What I’m debating is this: should I keep trying to lose weight in hopes of finding someone to love, when it’s like running to stand still (fighting your natural urges, as unhelpful as they may be, takes a lot of energy)? Or should I give up and enjoy the hell out of my food in hopes of eating myself to death? If I could choose the latter and be guaranteed that it would work in a year or two, I’d do it, no question. But what with all the exercise I get and the fruits and vegetables I eat, I don’t think it would be that easy, so I remain on the fence. Too bad I can’t wear a sign that says LOVE ME I EAT MY 5-A-DAY.

    I’m not telling you and the rest of Slog this to be maudlin. Just trying to be honest about a real phenomenon. You say you’re being honest too, about the obesity epidemic.* I like honesty. You’re an influential guy (great power, responsibility, all that). Before you write again about obesity, I just hope you’ll ask yourself if you’re helping to create the kind of environment, even inadvertently, that makes me wonder sincerely whether I’d be better off dead.

    *And I’m the first to decry the supersized portions, the corn syrup in EVERYTHING, the environment that makes walking and climbing and lifting things a hobby instead of a natural part of life. I’m not just fabulous with my scooter and my Thickburger, TYVM.

  22. I actually like the skin tight low rise jeans coupled with midriff baring tops look of a few years ago. I find it attractive. Dig the tunnel.

  23. Shocking to see that Dan is taking so much heat over this. Fat people need to get over themselves. Newsflash: Dan Savage is insensitive and abrasive. Stunning. Wonderful insight. Asking Dan to tone it down is like asking Sarah Palin to go vegan. It’s not going to happen. It’s who Dan is, and Jeebus bless him for it.

    Anyone that says lessening the amount of food you eat and increasing your amount of exercise does not lead to weight loss is extremely ignorant. I understand arguments against anecdotal evidence, but you don’t need a peer-reviewed study to prove that eating less and exercising more will lead to weight loss. The laws of thermodynamics prove this. It’s basic physics people. If a person burns more energy than it consumes, a person will lose weight. This basic scientific fact cannot be disputed. Yes, some people have higher metabolisms and burn more energy at rest than others, while others have slower metabolisms and store more of the energy they consume as fat. It does not change the laws of physics.

    Dan is a huge supporter of people being free to live their lives as they want. He just tries to encourage them to be honest about the risks/benefits associated with their decisions. I don’t see what’s wrong with that approach. Dan mocks everybody for their likes/dislikes/lifestyle. It’s part of his schtick.

  24. Shocking to see that Dan is taking so much heat over this. Fat people need to get over themselves. Newsflash: Dan Savage is insensitive and abrasive. Stunning. Wonderful insight. Asking Dan to tone it down is like asking Sarah Palin to go vegan. It’s not going to happen. It’s who Dan is, and Jeebus bless him for it.

    Anyone that says lessening the amount of food you eat and increasing your amount of exercise does not lead to weight loss is extremely ignorant. I understand arguments against anecdotal evidence, but you don’t need a peer-reviewed study to prove that eating less and exercising more will lead to weight loss. The laws of thermodynamics prove this. It’s basic physics people. If a person burns more energy than s/he consumes, a person will lose weight. This basic scientific fact cannot be disputed. Yes, some people have higher metabolisms and burn more energy at rest than others, while others have slower metabolisms and store more of the energy they consume as fat. It does not change the laws of physics.

    Dan is a huge supporter of people being free to live their lives as they want. He just tries to encourage them to be honest about the risks/benefits associated with their decisions. I don’t see what’s wrong with that approach. Dan mocks everybody for their likes/dislikes/lifestyle. It’s part of his schtick.

  25. Dan, I’m with you.

    I spent a lot of life throwing jeans out because my thighs rubbed holes in the legs. I have been that sweaty-faced girl with about 5 rolls between my bra strap and my ass. I’ve been fat and known what that feels like, and invisibility and judgment it brings, and being broken up with for “not being pretty enough” and from all this I have learned one thing: skinny feels better. And I don’t mean to be too harsh–I think gently of myself then, but I wish I had made the effort a long time ago. Also, it was always within my power to get there, even though it took years of hard, hard work. And obesity isn’t just about eating and exercise–there’s a lot of underlying stuff going on with almost everyone. There are underlying issues! I was terrified of relationships, and being fat was a nice thing to fall back on to justify not having any. Once I got over that, I was suddenly ready to let my ass go.

    Yes, you could have approached this whole issue with a bit more compassion. This caustic thing of yours seems like it takes a lot of energy. But you’re dead right.

    I was overweight as hell and made all those lists of things I liked about myself and why I was worthy of love and an ode to my beautiful complexion and all that insufferable Oprah-fied women’s magazine bullshit. Yeah, none of that worked as well as running my ass off and developing a keen taste for vegetables.

    People are so up in arms about this line “Nothing tastes as good as skinny feels.” Yes, it’s bad that its used as an anorexic cheerleading slogan. That is no good. But what I can’t get out of head is–within reason, that line is not wrong. Food is delicious. I fucking love food. But the immediate tasting of food doesn’t have the all day whiz bang “fuck yeah!” as catching my cheekbones in a window reflection or re-aquainting the world with my waist. And sex is SO MUCH better. Good holy God it’s better. Not only are people more attracted to me, I am more attracted to myself. I want it more and I have so much more energy. So man, I’m with you. You’re right. Sorry everyone is throwing rotten tomatoes at you.

  26. Lindy is not a saint. Dan is not evil incarnate.

    I *love* the InterWebz where people can basically say “you’re a fucktard” and walk away whistling without repercussions. To the people who just came here to hate on either Dan or Lindy instead of trying to add something substantive to the dialog, I want to say thanks (read thanks=fuck you) for NOT contributing anything of value.

    Dan’s piece is “boring” or “too long” — yet you’ve perhaps followed over 1000 posts on the topic? Please, let’s try to be fair. A lot of crap was leveled at Dan’s door, and this is an emotionally-charged topic. Two paragraphs would have been too little; this was too much. I think at this point, to many, Dan’s damned regardless of what he writes. He has the right to say his piece, though, in whatever form that takes; so again, I say “fuck you.”

    In reading all that has been written, including the posts from Dan’s archive that point to him actually being, if not FAT-positive, at least accepting and believing in the rights of people to live their own lives without being shamed; shamed for being fat; shamed for being kinky; shamed for not being “normal”–whatever the fuck that is. Does he lapse sometimes? Maybe. Yeah, Dan can come off as abrupt and perhaps overly frank, and yeah, sometimes that’s not what people need or want… But Dan is Dan. He always has been, always will be. If you don’t want that type of advice and if it pisses you off to read the words of that type of person, then don’t read his stuff. I sure as fuck don’t read Glenn freakin’ Beck or “Dr.” Laura. Getting them to change is pointless. I have a feeling the same is true of Dan.

    IMHO Both Lindy and Dan are talented, thought-provoking writers. I think Lindy is Seattle’s own Wonder Woman for writing her “I Am Fat” column. I also think Dan’s got balls of steel for being in the discussion, trying to get his point across in the face of a lot of, well, hate. I thank both of them for these threads, but especially Lindy who bravely, eloquently, was the one to lance this boil.

  27. Fantastic column.

    Facts scare people. There might actually be some people in the world who are thin and are going to stay that way no matter what they eat or how seldom they go to the gym. There are also people out there who are immune to AIDS.

    Does that mean people should generalize on the basis of those outliers? No! Most people will gain weight by not exercising and eating crap. And most people will get AIDS by having unprotected sex with someone who has AIDS.

    Is Lindy West eating well and exercising a lot? If not, she should order herself a supersized serving of STFU, because she doesn’t know whether she will lose weight or not by doing those things.

    The perverse logic? Now that she’s been liberated from her shame, she’s also been liberated from the motivation to lose weight. That, in a nutshell, is what’s so perverse about FA itself.

    Anyway, I’m already telling my kids to go to medical school and become gastric-bypass specialists, because, thanks to FA, there’s going to be mountains of fat people in this country for a long time to come.

  29. OH MY GOD Lindy needs to fucking chill out. Her bullshit quotemining aside (and by the way? when you have to resort to distorting your enemy’s words out of context? you might be wrong), wtf? Fat people know they’re fat so you just have to STFU? Telling people to shut up about something that is both important and true just because it makes you uncomfortable is pretty messed up.

    Side note: to all the FA types who get on these threads and then respond to people’s weight-loss stories with stuff like “talk to me in two years you will have gained it all back and more CACKLE CACKLE HAHAHA” – you are seriously fucked up as people. We all understand that there isn’t some sort of one-to-one relationship between weight loss and health improvement, but for many of these people whose failure you so eagerly anticipate, they have made themselves healthier and perhaps even added years to their lives. That you would cheer for them to fail is truly sociopathic.

  30. Fantastic rebuttal, Dan. I must be terribly frustrating to have to respond to an accusation that is based on half-truths, out of context statements, outright lies (“you’re the boss of me”), and feelings.

    You did all of that while showing Lindy a measure of respect that she didn’t show you. Good job.

  32. I’m with dan on this. Could he be more diplomatic when talking about obesity? Sure. Has he been hateful? Um, not really. Is Lindy being overly sensitive? Have the obese tried to expropriate the language of discrimination to try to absolve themselves of the role of individual responsibilty in the obesity epidemic? Emphatic yes and yes!!

    Now can we please get a SLLOTD?

  33. I am now replacing all references to really, really fucking expensive wars on education, Mexico, Iraq, Vietghanistan, Yemen…the Norm Dicks Patriot Act and Boeing’s drone warfare on brown skinned-kids who sleep in houses…with fat, gay or Goldy.

    Not that Goldy is fat, gay or a drone…but you know, if there’s one way to get peoples minds off of Boeing’s wars that are fought by gay people, not fat…well, my hat is off to you Seattle Fusion Center…well played!

    Egypt today…maybe Centralia tomorrow. Spokane is calm like a bomb. Give the Slog a good old fashioned body image battle and you get what we had here last week…Obama change on a Bush tortured plate?

    Well fuck me if I didn’t lose steam there towards the end.

  38. There is a bit of cognitive dissonance in first reading her post and then reading her restaurant review in which she waxes rapturous about a 1/3 pound burger and fries dripping with grease.

    I mean, which of these statements is fat-shaming?

    1. Americans are getting more overweight and more obese
    2. In general, there are more health risks associated with being overweight and obese than not
    3. For the vast majority of people, it’s a combination of calories and exercise, not of glandular problems or fixed body weights.
    4. The American obsession with consumption and quantity means that Americans are eating more and more at meals. Especially when that meal is crap (see Big Gulps, fast food meals, etc.).

    And there’s something so ironic about the fat pride people accusing Dan of privilege. Christ, what a bunch of self-absorbed, thin-skinned, middle class left coasters (says the man posting comment 239, but in my defense I’m home sick today).

  39. Yay, Dan. Good response. Sorry you have to put up with so much anger and hatred from the FA people.

    Just remember like usual there’s a silent majority of us who agree with you, but people who agree are never as noisy as people who disagree.

  40. Lindy and her whine has the same validity as any Republican effort to “protect” marriage. When people get their undies in a twist without valid reason, it usually means they are in their first womens studies class, or have decided they have a particular axe to grind.

    Dan, keep doing what you do, let her be a hater and do not validate her ignorance by paying it any more attention. She is clearly a drama queen, resist the urge to queen back.

  41. Misanthrope @211 By using smoking as an example, I meant that there has been a conversation about its negative effects on health, and knowing that, I would discourage my kids from smoking (and from a health standpoint, not let people smoke in my house.) I guess I’m having trouble with the language: When does pointing out problems with a certain behaviour become shaming? I just think that excess weight, because it affects so many of us (>63%) is such a painful issue that a lot of people don’t want to have any kind of conversation about it. I also think personal preference has gotten mixed up with public education, as in, what Dan likes in his personal life vs. “here’s another article on how our sedentary lifestyle has affected weight over the years.” As I said on the monster thread, I don’t take it as a personal affront that Dan prefers men to women, or that he finds women’s bits “gross.” (That’s as it should be, right?) I don’t think the fact that he doesn’t want to sleep with women negates his right to have a conversation about women’s issues, and I feel the same way about the weight issue.

    Sorry, I don’t agree that he should treat certain groups with kid gloves. While he may appreciate duct tape in his personal life, I’d rather not see it applied to his writing.

  44. Without getting into the actual substance of the post (partially because I’m posting this comment during a 10-minute coffee break I’m giving myself): Let me get this straight. When Lindy writes a post publicly accusing a coworker of outright bigotry, that’s brave, but if Dan attempts to respond, that’s somehow the insensitive ramblings of someone blind to his own privilege? Really?

    I’m not saying that Lindy didn’t make a number of good points; she did. (And I’m with pretty much everyone who’s commented on this series of threads when I say, Lindy, you’re wonderful, you’re beautiful, and I’m genuinely glad to see you’ve moved past all the anti-fat prejudice we see in our society.) But the idea that Dan has somehow committed some grave offense by responding – and doing so in a fairly sensitive fashion – is absurd. It’s downright Palin-esque.

    Seriously, Dan’s comments about overweight people are sometimes insensitive…but so are his comments about, I dunno, gay men, lesbians, women, men, guns, religion, other cultures, occasionally lawyers…you get the idea.

    This kind of reminds me of GLAAD freaking the fuck out over John Mayer’s offhand use of the word “fag” in that one interview. Was it a little insensitive? Sure. But aren’t there better things to do with one’s time than beat the war drum against someone who’s always been more of an ally than an enemy? Yeesh.

  46. @198 “it’s really a discussion between smart people who have strong feelings. And hooray for that.”

    Oh really, Paul? Don’t you mean hooray for that in this case? I’ll look for evidence of your celebration of intellectual discussion in your next Ayn-Rand-was-a-cunt-so-boo-on-anything-associated-with-her-name post.

  47. I give the win to Dan because I laughed (smiled and smirked) more while reading his piece than I did while reading Lindy’s. This is all about informing while being as witty as humanly possible, right?

  48. @246 – Canuck, agree 100%. I don’t get the link between what Dan has said/posted over the years and being nailed up as a bigot here. Especially since this whole thing started with an apparent misreading of Dan’s ‘Ban Fat Marriage’ post.

  49. Wow – this column touched a nerve in a lot of people.

    I do think Lindy overreacted and misinterpreted Dan’s comments – and I understand why he needed to set the record straight.

    Dan, your strong reaction shows that her comments hit home on some level. This feud seems to have gone beyond friendly arguing. Please take it private … both of you.

  50. It’s the American way: blame all your problems on someone else.

    Everybody quit making blond jokes because I am blond and I don’t like your jokes! THEY MAKE ME FEEL BAD and therefore you need to adjust your behavior and never speak a word about dumb blonds again! I CAN’T HELP BEING BLOND! So everyone just zip your lips because my fragile narcissistic ego can’t take the fact that some people think blonds are stupid.

    I hate myself and it is all Dan Savage’s fault!

    Some (a LOT of) people need to put on their big-girl panties and realize that not everyone in this world has to like you or think you are attractive or tip toe around your ego. It’s called LIFE and it’s not fair. Wake the F up.

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