I’m glad Lindy West loves herself and her body, and I’m happy that she’s done with shame, and I think she’s beautiful and charismatic and hilarious and I always have. I take issue, however, with Lindy’s setting me up as some sort of boogey/straw man, attributing prejudices to me that I do not feel, and attempting to purge her fatshame by fathateshaming me. Arguing that the obesity epidemic should be off limits for discussion on Slog—or that Stranger writers, a notoriously snarky bunch, must slip on kid gloves before we sit down at our computers to post about this issue and this issue alone (really? at a publication that’s joked about child rape, AIDS, and the Holocaust?)—because “fat people know they’re fat” is simply ridiculous.

There are two things I’d like to clear up before I really get going…

Thing 1: I’m not Lindy West’s “boss.” I didn’t hire her, I don’t have the authority to fire her, I don’t edit her. Lindy’s post was courageous and it was inspiring—until the ad hominem attacks began—but it wasn’t standing-up-to-the-boss brave. Because I’m not her boss. I could probably get her fired, I suppose, but I wouldn’t try to do that, because she’s brilliant and funny and, even if she disagrees with me, even if we come to rhetorical blows on Slog, we all argue all the time on Slog. What would Slog be without our intramural battles? What’s different about Lindy’s post is the personal nature of Lindy’s attack. She’s accusing me of bigotry and malice—she’s accusing me of attacking her personally, which I’ve never done and would not do.

Thing 2: I was out of email, cell, and Internet range all weekend, starting Friday afternoon, and didn’t get a chance to really sit down and read Lindy’s post until late last night, and that’s why I’m only just responding to it now.

Okay! Let the record show that I love that Lindy loves Lindy—everybody loves Lindy and so should Lindy—but I’m not so in love with the way Lindy used this quote from a Savage Love column I wrote more than seven years ago:

I am thoroughly annoyed at having my tame statements of fact—being heavy is a health risk; rolls of exposed flesh are unsightly—characterized as “hate speech.”

That sounds bad floating out there in space like that, all removed from its original context and shit.

That’s one sentence from a column that came at the end of a series of columns—a series of columns from 2004—that was not about the general unsightliness of fat people. It was about the late, unlamented fad for skin-tight, low-rise jeans coupled with midriff-baring tops. (The columns are here, here, and here.) The columns weren’t just critical of overweight or obese women in low-rise jeans and midriff-baring tops, but of women who didn’t have the right “proportions” to pull off that look; “most women” didn’t look good in these getups, not just fat women. (Men came in for some slamming too.) In its original context the remark was not a reference to fat people’s bodies generally, or a suggestion that fat people didn’t have a right to live in their own bodies without shame (or wear those stupid jeans if they wished), but to a particular kind of pants that do not flatter most bodies, pants that created and exposed unsightly rolls of flesh on fat women, not-so-fat women, and not-at-all-fat women alike, pants that have mercifully been consigned to the dustbin of fashion history. I suspect that Lindy was casting around looking for the most damning possible sentence, found that one, and tossed it up on Slog. It’s that or believe that Lindy was intentionally dishonest and manipulative. (And, yes, it could’ve been better put. Allow me to amend the record: “I am thoroughly annoyed at having my tame statements of fact—being heavy is a health risk; the rolls of exposed flesh created by low-rise jeans/high-rise tops are unsightly—characterized as ‘hate speech.'” And thank God no one wears those fucking things anymore.)

As for the rest of the evidence of my supposed bigotry that Lindy links to in her post—sometimes snarky posts of mine linking to news stories about the obesity epidemic; links to research that gives lie to the diet-and-exercise-have-nothing-to-do-with-the-obesity-epidemic lie pushed by dishonest, vindictive, and codependent fat activists; a post of mine featuring a Tim Minchin song that I labeled “brutal” and “bullying” but whose title I happen to agree with strongly (can we all agree that people shouldn’t feed donuts to their obese children?); discussions in a book I wrote a decade ago about the crazy fat people at the NAAFA convention (there are crazy fat people out there, Lindy, just as there are crazy gay people out there; be careful who you crawl into bed now that you’re a “brave” hero to the FA movement for standing up to your bigoted “boss”)—the bigotry in my posts exists only in Lindy’s imagination. (Okay, I totally crossed the line when I made fun of Kate Harding’s arms, which I’ve never even seen (they could be made of steel for all I know), and for that I apologize. I could dig up a few hundred emails from FA movement folks calling me a cocksucker, if it that would help balance the scales.)

Take Lindy’s reaction to my “Ban Fat Marriage” post. Opponents of marriage equality in Iowa claim they want to ban gay marriage because gay men are unhealthy. By that logic, I wrote, “fat marraige” would also have to be banned in Iowa. Did I mean that fat people shouldn’t be allowed to marry? Of course not. Does pointing out that there are a lot of fat people in Iowa—30% of the population of that state is obese—somehow “stigmatize” fat people? Um, no, not unless the existence of fat people is somehow inherently stigmatizing. I did point out that there are health risks associated with being obese—I had to in order to make the point that Republican legislators in Iowa are bigots—and you know what? There are health risks associated with being obese. There are also, as I’ve written until my fingers were numb, health risks associated with being gay and sexually active. (They’re not the ones the bigots in Iowa are talking up; more on those health risks in a minute). Citing the prevalence of obesity in Iowa and mentioning the health risks associated with obesity to make a point about bigotry isn’t by itself bigotry. So what was up with Lindy’s reaction to that post? I think this reader is on to something:

I read your “Ban Fat Marriage” post. Applying the arguments for position X to analogous position Y in order to show that both arguments are spurious and indefensible is a standard and often effective tactic. Perhaps as a matter of discretion, you left out the “ick factor” that is often applied to gay (man-on-man, that is) sex, which could easily go with fat-on-fat sex as well, but when I mentioned the article to my spouse, I threw that in. Then I saw Lindy West’s reactions “RE: Ban Fat Marriage” and “Hello, I am Fat.” Apparently, Lindy isn’t very good with reading comprehension, which is kind of startling since she writes for a living. Or maybe she suspends her reading comprehension and reasoning skills whenever the subject of “fat” is broached. I’d wager the latter is the case.

I’m going to start numbering these things, à la Lindy, because I wanna get through this and return to my regularly scheduled life:

1. Lindy cites that particular quote, above, as proof that I’m a bigot. She claims to know what I think about fat people and how I feel about fat people and leaps from there to claims that I think fat people are gross and that I don’t want fat people touching me (no more hugging my relatives, I guess), which she then condemns me for. Ad hominemineminem. (I’m on an airplane sitting next to a fat person RIGHT NOW, Lindy! A fat person I’m sharing my NYT with! I even let her do the crossword! Because I HATE!) It’s hard to disprove a charge of bigotry without resorting to some-of-my-best-friends-are—and on this subject I can resort to I-once-was-myself (relevant email from my brother after the jump)—but I’m not an anti-fat bigot ,and one piece of material evidence I could point to might be all the people of varying sizes that I have hired or had a hand in hiring over the years. The first thing I said to Lindy when we met in person wasn’t “Unsightly! Unsightly!” but “Your film reviews are amazing—we’ve got to get you on staff.” If that’s bigotry… (Discrimination in the workplace is a huge problem for the obese… but not at the Stranger, despite the place being partly run by a fatpohbic bigot. Weird.)

2. I never claimed to be concerned about Lindy’s health. The science is in: obesity has serious potential health consequences. Which is not to say that all the obese folks are unhealthy and all the skinny bitches are healthy. Individual results may vary. But being seriously overweight is likely to harm a person’s health. That said…

I have always maintained that people have a right to live their lives and pursue their pleasures, wherever they find them, even if there are potential negative health consequences, even at the risk of shortening their lives. There are health consequences to being obese—the First Lady agrees, Lindy, go get her!—but like I wrote at the end of the gluttony chapter in Skipping Towards Gomorrah, we should all have the right to live however we damn well please without being stigmatized or discriminated against. But we don’t have a right to demand that other people pretend that there aren’t health consequences involved with being obese, with smoking, with eating meat, with skiing, and, yes, with being gay and sexually active. Sexually active gay men have much higher rates of sexually transmitted infections, higher rates of HIV transmission, higher rates of drug and alcohol abuse (sometimes that drug and alcohol abuse is rooted in self-hatred, which the wider society is responsible for creating; sometimes it’s rooted in destructive community norms, which gay men are responsible for creating and perpetuating). I’ve written about the risks gay men face—the potential negative health consequences of being gay and sexually active—until my fingers were ready to fall off. Was that bigoted of me?

3. I could give a shit about health-insurance premiums. I support a government-run, single-payer health care system, one that spreads everyone’s risks around—the obese, the gay, the smoker, the skier, etc. I’ve no doubt linked to stories about the health care costs associated with the obesity epidemic because, you know, it’s an aspect of the obesity-epidemic story and I’m interested in this story. (I’m a sex-and-relationship columnist; I could no more avoid questions about bodies and health and size than I could avoid questions about blowjobs and assfucking and cunnilingus.) I believe that the extra burden the obese place on our health care system should be borne without complaint just as the extra burden the HIV-positive place on the health-care system should. (And, hey, have I mentioned that my seventy-year-old dad is a smoker and on Medicare?) But there’s nothing bigoted about encouraging the obese to take steps to improve their health—that usually means making the kinds of changes that lead to weight loss—any more than there’s something bigoted about encouraging gay men to use condoms, fuck fewer people, stop using meth, etc.

4. I’m interested in the obesity epidemic—what causes it, how it got this bad, what we’re going to do about it—and I’m angered by what I perceive to be the dishonestly of many FA movement activists. I think the obesity epidemic is remarkable, which is why I remark on it, and I will continue to remark on it so long as I’m blogging, and I reserve the right to make the odd snarky remark. I will continue to post the links to stories about the obesity epidemic that catch my eye, stories like this that give the lie to the whole lack-of-exercise-has-nothing-to-do-with-it crap pushed by fat-acceptance crowd:

Adult obesity rates rose in 28 states last year, the report says…. Among the [report’s] findings: In a dozen states, more adults reported getting absolutely no regular physical activity beyond their jobs. It’s not likely a coincidence that the fattest state, Mississippi, also has the highest rate of physical inactivity in adults. There was a lot of overlap in the most-obese and least-active lists.

This stuff interests me not just because it pisses off the FA crowd. It’s interesting all on its own.

5. The takeaway from Lindy’s post—once the euphoria of our pleasure in Lindy’s triumph over her self-loathing fades—seems to be this: Fat people already feel bad, so shut up. Reading about obesity reminds fat people they’re fat and they already know they’re fat and feel bad about being fat, so shut up. And diet and exercise never work and even if they worked for you it’s unpossible for a heavy person to keep the weight off so why bother, so shut up. And shut up because your not shutting up is making it harder for fat people not to hate themselves and only after fat people stop hating themselves and lose the shame can they… begin to lose the weight that they can’t actually lose. And shut up.

I find that very confusing and confused.

And finally…

Look, Lindy, I hear you. You don’t like my posts about obesity. You don’t think they’re helpful. They’re not necessarily meant to be helpful. You seem to assume that I post in the hope that fat people will read my posts and drop the weight. That’s not my motivation; neither is shaming fat people. I’m interested in the obesity epidemic and I’m following the news about it and I assume other people are too and I’m posting about it and I’m ticked off about some aspects of it (including, yes, the vitriol that has been aimed at me over the years). And, yes, I believe that people should be fit—fit, not skinny; active, not sticks—not because Fat Is Gross, but because healthy—which doesn’t always translate to skinny—is better than non-healthy. It’s pretty much the same reason why I think people shouldn’t smoke or fuck strangers without protection or play on railroad tracks or smoke meth or vote Republican.

I am not, however, responsible for your shame (RIP). You arrived at my posts with your shame, my posts didn’t create it, and you managed to conquer your shame despite my posts. Good for you. (No snark intended in that “good for you.” Seriously, Lindy, good for you.) If you don’t want to read my posts about this subject—about any subject—just skip ’em.

And finally-for-real-finallyfinallyfinally… if you had written to me at my column seeking my advice about all of this (and I realize you didn’t and I realize that now I’m the one pretending that I can read your thoughts—but, hey, you pretended you could read mine, so looks like we’re even), here’s what I would have to said after reading your letter: It sounds like you’re externalizing an internal conflict about being fat—you’re projecting your anger and self-loathing onto to me, and seeing malice and bigotry where none exists, and perhaps that’s useful because that anger seems to be liberating and motivating. If having your own personal boogeyman on Slog helps you conquer your shame and love your body and this helps you break out of old, self-destructive patterns and habits (you can’t be losing weight now just because your attitude changed), then I’m happy to be your own personal boogeyman. But honestly, Lindy, you don’t need one. You’re stronger than that.

················

Here’s the email from my brother Bill…

When you do have time to respond to Lindy: note how often these people (LW included) use anecdotal evidence and generalize to the Whole World about it. She cannot lose weight dieting, so it’s not possible. Then you might talk about our family.

You were fat as a kid. You started exercising and eating right and voila, you’re not fat.

Other family members, not so much. Post a link to our CHF talk, where I look like fucking buddha for crissakes. if you and I both have genetically preset weights which our bodies just naturally go to, then we’d be roughly similar given our shared genetic backgrounds. But I don’t exercise as much as you do (my biking not withstanding, I haven’t been to a gym in years) and I don’t eat as well as you do and so I’m 20 to 25 lbs overweight.

You and Eddie exercise a lot, eat right and are in good shape.

If they get to generalize anecdotes about themselves, so do you.

The ultimate irony in all of this? I still feel like the fat kid.

473 replies on “Hello, I’m Not the Enemy”

  1. Oh, Dan! I adore you, but you’re simply misguided here. And I know you’ve dug in your heels and all, so I’m not gonna argue with you (much). But if you’re actually interested, you should read Health at Every Size and the blog fatnutritionist.com.

    Are extremely obese people subject to increased health risks? Yep, and few fat-acceptance advocates would argue with you there. But the folks whose fat puts them at potential risk are an itty bitty slice of the population (about six percent). And it’s sweet of your brother to defend you, but a genetic predisposition to a certain weight does not mean that two brothers would be identical sizes, just as genetics don’t mean that they’d necessarily share an eye color or the ability to roll the tongue. Also, fat-acceptance experts in the fields of diet and nutrition theorize that our bodies have a roughly thirty-pound rage, not a magical number that’s our set point. And set points can go up with repeated cycles of dieting, weight loss, and weight regain.

    Have a lovely day, and enjoy your high horse. 🙂

  2. Lindy, to judge by the picture she posted earlier, is not obese or even really fat, but merely padded. There is a big difference between the level of adipose that pads your cheeks and prevents you from ever being hired as a fashion model, and the level that will induce your doctor to have a Talk with you. Lindy is well over three times taller than she is wide. She does not qualify as unhealthily fat.

  5. Dan learned a valuble lesson. Anyone willing to put their life at risk for the dubious pleasure of a doughnut is only too willing to throw you under the bus for no reason what so ever.

  6. I loved Dan Savage until about 15 minutes ago when I came across this gaunt and angry, defensive ex-fat kid rant about how bad, bad, bad was/is all things FAT.

    –Current Fat and Queer Femme, tyvm.

  8. I loved Dan Savage until about 15 minutes ago when I came across this gaunt and angry, defensive ex-fat kid rant about how bad, bad, bad was/is all things FAT.

    –Current Fat and Queer Femme, tyvm.

  9. Sorry, but I vote for Dan.

    I’ve been reading his column for years, and I’ve never sensed in anything he’s ever written that he was authentically prejudiced toward any group other than gay Republicans.

    For those who feel otherwise, find a different column to read.

  11. Here’s the thing, Dan. You seem to talk about obesity a LOT more than other people on slog. Also, you made a post a little while back about how if gay marriage is illegal so should be obese marriage. So how does alienating people work towards your goal? You’ve talked before about how ‘these people’ (haters/christians) shouldn’t be engaged in a direct argument, since they don’t deal in facts you can argue. So here you are, arguing a point: they say gay marriage is bad for america’s health, you point out that obese marriage is worse. So now all these obese people who agree that marriage rights should be equal now feel attacked by you. Maybe that’s not your intention, but that’s how the message is received.

    So your comment that you shouldn’t have to put on kid gloves is valid, but you have to realize that you can’t claim you don’t hate obese people when that’s how you come across.

  12. <3 Dan! I, too, love that Lindy loves her body and I encourage people to lead whatever lifestyles make them happy. But pretending there aren’t health risks is a service to nobody, and self-censoring about an interesting current trend just so some people don’t get their sensitive feelings hurt is bullshit.

    Ban Fat Marriage was hilarious and apt juxtaposition to a ridiculous fundie argument, and I saw no reason to take it any more seriously than that. Besides, if you’re going to get pissed every time Dan says something snarky and unflattering — be it “rolls of flesh”, “canned ham”, or any number of cracks about bisexuality — you are reading the wrong damn blog. Also, there are real health risks associated with being angry that I think you should know about.

  13. Dan, I haven’t read your entire post and I’m not sure if you’re going to read all these messages – if you do, just remember that 99.9% of your audience adores you and totally understands what you mean about fat people, bisexuals, whatever – don’t get caught up in this stupidity. You are smart, empathetic, reasonable and even heroic for standing up for the gay community – forget about ‘it’s get better’ which has become so much a part of our culture that it’s almost gone beyond ‘Dan Savage’ and become it’s own thing.

    I imagine there’s millions of people out there whose sex lives you have transformed: I had the most romantic Valentine’s day imaginable last night, and had probably the best sex I have ever had to date (after eating chinese dumplings in a picnic on our bed, not before) where I got to fully experience my sexuality and share my boyfriends – and I am pretty sure I wouldn’t have been able to express myself and submit myself if I hadn’t been a regular, longtime reader. Thanks to your work.

    You speak broadly, for a wide audience, and there are necessarily people out there who want to take offense – and it is their right. But please don’t feel like you have to pander to their malarkey. Love, echovic

  14. @257

    Lindy is not “padded.” Lindy is obese. Her BMI is over 38. She’s getting well into morbidly obese.

    Her clothes are great. She’s attractive. But she is morbidly obese.

    Her weight is shortening her life. It’s her choice. If she’s happy with it, good for her.

    It is sort of life being a smoker, though. Some people find it gross and will say so. If you don’t want them to say you’re gross, quit whining, and get on a fucking treadmill already.

  15. It’s so awesome to watch you sanctimonious white Seattle libtards turn on each other and get eaten by your own retarded ideological dogma!!!!

  16. “I am thoroughly annoyed at having my tame statements of fact—being heavy is a health risk; the rolls of exposed flesh created by low-rise jeans/high-rise tops are unsightly—characterized as ‘hate speech.'”

    Yeah… you still got that wrong. Here, let me fix it for you:

    “I am thoroughly annoyed at having my tame statements of fact—being heavy is a health risk; AND MY OPINION- the rolls of exposed flesh created by low-rise jeans/high-rise tops are unsightly TO ME—characterized as ‘hate speech.'”

    …And the fact that you can’t see the difference between the two just illustrates how big of a pompous ass you really are.

  17. @246

    I don’t think smoking and “obesity” are very good parallels, because smoking does not have the same complexity around it. Smoking is smoking. You smoke, or you don’t. (With a small exception for people who smoke when drinking.) But being “fat” can veer widely based on opinion and a misunderstanding of the current scientific literature on the subject.

    Is “obesity” a health issue? Does “obesity” affect your health? Yes. But what exactly do we define as “obesity?” What measures do we use? (BMI? Hip to waist ratio? Resting heart rate? Body fat content?) How, exactly, does obesity have an affect on the body? Yes, it wears down joints… But so does running. Many marathon runners that need their knees replaced as “obese” people. Sports can be just as grueling and demanding on the body as extra weight.

    So what exactly do we mean when we say “health?” Yeah, eat right and exercise… But there doesn’t seem to be much of an agreement on WHAT is “eating right.” And WHAT exactly is the proper amount of “exercise?”

    Yes, weight is a factor in SOME diseases. But there are several behaviors that are more directly linked to life threatening diseases (sun tanning <-> skin cancer) that are not discussed. Some studies even suggest a “few extra pounds” may PROLONG life and prevent CERTAIN diseases, while causing others. (I have yet to see smoking prevent a disease or prolong life.)

    I don’t want to see Dan stop discussing the obesity “epidemic.” (Another interesting observation: an epidemic is usually a term reserved for contagious diseases. Why do we apply it to weight gain? Does obesity actually ACT like an epidemic?) What I want is for him to discuss it in the complex matter it deserves.

  18. Anyone who actually reads/listens to Dan regularly knows that:

    A) he is the most open-minded, accepting person out there

    B) he often pokes fun at the people seeking advice, BECAUSE IT’S FUNNY

    I’m not saying he’s a saint, but anyone who would doubt that he’s ultimately compassionate and kind, has clearly missed what he’s all about.

    I love Lindy, she’s hilarious and brilliant, but Dan is not the bad guy here. And I definitely would want to defend myself if I had been so unfairly attacked in a public forum, at length.

    Love you Dan.

  20. I am a smoker. I am also a grown woman and I have to listen to people talk about my smoking continually, for crying out loud there are commercials and websites dedicated to telling me how horrible it is. Strangers stopping on the street to tell me that smoking will kill me, make me old and ugly. I watch people fake cough while staring at me from across the street like my second hand smoke crossed a four lane street. If I have to put up with that, fat people can put up with their end of the stick. Do we have to appreciate what other people think of us? Agree with them? Hell no! But to sit there a huskier person and expect that no one is going to say anything, no one is going to hand you a ww flier or a free gym membership is just,ridiculous. You cant sit there, a fat person eating icecream or a smoker taking a puff of their inhaler before lighting up and expect people keep their mouths shut. If you honestly do then your stupid as well as unhealthy.

  21. No one will probably read this, but I felt that I should say something. I am not sure I would be called fat, but I am certainly heavier then I have been in the past, despite relatively healthy eating habits. I can buy clothes in regular sizes, but only just and I am on the verge of no longer being able to do so. My personal feelings about the fat acceptance movement are complicated. Although I agree that learning to love and accept your body when it does not fit the industry standard is a great thing that will hopefully lead to a healthier ideal being perpetuated overall, I don’t think self-acceptance should be used as an excuse for unhealthy or irresponsible behavior. My lifestyle is not one of total ease and immediate pleasure. Sure I have fun, sometimes I eat things that are bad for me or drink too much, but I do not see these as aspects of my life that defining and non-negotiable. Lindy and many other FA people act like eating a bag of dorritos is just a fact of life, one that cannot be changed, one that they’ll just have to learn to live with. They know it’s tied to their weight, but somehow see being fat as an inalienable right. I guess it is, but what confuses me is that they do not seem to take this philosophy with them to other aspects of their life. Lindy is obviously educated and accomplished. Clearly writing/intellectualism in general came more naturally to her than athletics, but to dismiss exercise and healthy eating all together as not who she is seems hypocritical. College is hard. I am finishing my final semester at an ivy league university, and as much as I would like to stop working and go back to bed; just giving up and saying I accept my academic non-conformity is stupid, short-sighted and really just a bad idea. Why is this attitude only acceptable in our eating/exercising habits? I agree it is hard to eat and exercise when so much neuroticism is attached to those activities, and I think it’s great that Lindy has finally overcome those feelings, but why must we continue to stigmatize doing something that is good for us and calling out people like Dan Savage, who in the grand scheme of things is not the enemy, for suggesting that we strive for more than complacency and immediate gratification? I hold myself to the highest personal standard in all areas of my life. If you think that being fat is the only thing that our society and the media tells us we should be and the rest of your life is pure personal choice, you’re wrong.

  22. Here’s the thing, Dan. You seem to talk about obesity a LOT more than other people on slog. Also, you made a post a little while back about how if gay marriage is illegal so should be obese marriage. How does alienating people work towards your goal? You’ve talked before about how ‘these people’ (haters/christians) shouldn’t be engaged in a direct argument, since they don’t deal in facts you can argue. So here you are, arguing a point: they say gay marriage is bad for america’s health, you point out that obese marriage is worse. And now all these obese people who agree that marriage rights should be equal feel attacked by you. Maybe that’s not your intention, but that’s how the message is received. And then you claim to never have made any negative comments on fat people.

    So your remark that you shouldn’t have to put on kid gloves is valid, but you have to realize that you can’t claim you don’t hate obese people when that’s how you come across.

  24. Dan, you don’t realize how much you sound like Perkins & LaBarbera here. You really do. Just substitute “fat” for “gay”. And like them, you’re on the losing end of this because your “concern” for the health of obese people doesn’t ring true. I’m sorry, but I don’t think you want obesity eliminated to improve the general health, you want obesity eliminated so that you won’t have to look at obese people. And that’s bigotry. You’re a bigot, Dan Savage. Own up to it, and work on it. And no, don’t worry, “working on it” does not involve having sex with a fat guy.

    It’s cool, bud, we still love ya, warts and all. You’ve been part of my life for 15 years now, and if this was a problem for me, I would’ve stopped reading long ago (and my first, and best lover was in the obese category). But at the very least, give this a rest.

  26. @265: the tiptoeing by staffers is really apparent. I’m betting that in the office, Lindy is the super funny, fun, too-cool-for-school chick (which, I’d point out, are all coping mechanisms for being fat) that everyone wants to be friends with.

    So they chime in to circle jerk the FA crowd initially — and note that it was only the women and gay staffers who spoke up…~so oppressed~

    Then on the other hand, there’s Dan, and they see now that he’s right. And shoot, he isn’t technically their boss, but only because he chooses not to be and relinquished editorial duties to do other things. Make no mistake: the Stranger would not exist if not for Dan and Tim. This is their baby. He could snap his skinny little fingers and have any one of them dismissed.

    So they are measuring their statements, and it’s obvious. They are like the family members who got involved when they shouldn’t have and are now trying to assert their neutrality to avoid further damage of their own credibility with the parties involved.

  28. I was going to say that the fat advocates are externalizing an internal conflict about being fat and projecting their anger and self-loathing on to Dan (or anyone else who dares call them on their bs) and seeing malice and bigotry where none exists, but I got to the end of Dan’s post and realized he already knew that.

    I’m sorry to see that Lindy had trouble accepting her body; she’s what Mexicans call, in their total and absolutely refreshing lack of political correctness, a “gordibuena”, which would roughly translate as “hot fat chick” (BBW just doesn’t cut it, as far as I’m concerned). Indeed, the other day, I spotted a shop called “Ropa para gorditas”, i.e. Clothes for fat girls. That’s fat acceptance. It does not preclude wanting to be healthy and adopt healthier habits. The Mexican government recently prohibited the sale of junk food at schools, and everybody agrees it’s a good idea. But fat girls here proudly expose their “unsightly rolls of flesh” in public because they feel sexy, and believe me, they’ve got their fans.

    Once fat people accept themselves, they can start seeing Dan’s arguments for what they are. Until then, they’ll just keep projecting their self-hatred on him and everyone else who hints that there’s a link between size and eating/exercizing habits.

    I’m an ex fat kid and a proud chubby chaser. The fact that I now have a quick metabolism and can’t seem to get any weight has not made me perfectly healthy, since I could eat all the sugary stuff I wanted and am now borderline diabetic. But that’s my fault. I know I’m responsible for my health, and I’ve taken appropriate steps to change my diet. So all you fat-advocacy ostriches, please do me a favour: just don’t insult my intelligence, ok?

  30. I can’t believe you start out with, “I’m being personally attacked! That person’s calling me a bigot which is meanmeanmean my feelings are hurt!” You sound like all those religious whack-jobs who cry victim when they’re stripped of their god-given right to keep gays out of B&Bs.

  31. @145, Lindy’s post was beautifully written and resonates with women who grow up feeling ashamed of their bodies for multitudes of reasons. Which, sadly, is most of us. She’s great, the post was great, and I’ll echo my colleagues here–it’s incredible to watch smart people argue in a forum like this.

    That said, Dan isn’t a monster. He’s kind, he’s generous with his time, and yeah, he’s blunt. Those gleefully pouncing on their chance to label him as a frothing, fat-hating tyrant are way off the mark.

  32. @ 278 That was not his point on “fat marriage”. If you can’t read, you shouldn’t write.

    SARCASM, you know what that means? Obviously not.

  33. Police will respond to calls from a neighbor that an age-appropriate kid is sent walking 15 minutes to his soccer practice — like the mother did something wrong. Kids being raised like veal is the new normal.

    When people are made to live in fear, they will medicate themselves. Where is the medication in starving yourself and being skinny?

  34. Canuck@246 One can have a conversation about health issues without using words like “unsightly” and “gross” both of which are “fact” to him but obviously not actual FACT. But, that’s not to say I want that. But, I don’t want him to say , essentially, “Oh, yeah…I’m not biased against fat people, but they’re gross.” It’s hypocritical and tacky. He should just own it.

    If we’re going to jump on women’s issues, then Dan also has apologized for his several of his hurtful, sexist statements. Pressed Ham. Using pussy all the time for negative descriptives. Basically, he tends to kowtow to feminists almost to the point of being a pussy.

    He doesn’t back down on fat. He dodges and is avoidant on the topic. And, he hasn’t fought for any fat rights (not that there are any that fat people are really fighting for).

    Where do you see the harm in owning up to one’s bias if you’re going to use language that belittles and shames a group of people?

  36. Shorter Savage:

    “I’m not Lindy’s boss, although I can probably get her fired if I want. You know…because I’m magnanimous that way. And oh yeah, because I totally love her. Totally. blah blah blah I don’t know why you think I don’t like Lindy or why she’s taking this so personally, even though I’m verbally patting her on her pretty little head like a delusional puppy. yadda yadda yadda DEATHFATZ! IT’S SCIENCE! YOU’RE GOING TO DIE! YES YOU, FATTY! blow blow blow Why would you give a fat kid a donut? amirite? That song about parents beating fat kids was totally relevant and NOT about bullying, so my previous work isn’t hypocritical at all! la la la la Also, my hatred of fat rolls? That was *totally* out of context. I hate fat rolls on skinny people too! memelookatmememe I lost weight, even though you said it totally wasn’t possible for any person to ever lose weight, even though you didn’t say that! But I still am insecure about my body, and this totally proves that society’s fat hatred can’t possibly be the cause of that!”

  39. Dan,

    Effective takedown, and gentle enough, considering how much you like this ungrateful, projecting colleague.

    As I said in comment 1000-something in Lindy’s thread, you are not the enemy, and she needs to stop generalizing her experience. Some people wrongfully point to the gay equality movement as an example of political correctness run amok. I think the fat acceptance movement might be a better example.

    Still and all, you have a little way to go to match the precision and brevity and brilliance of Will Wilkinson’s pwnage.

  40. “I was taken out of context”? Really? That’s your response?

    “Rolls of exposed flesh are unsightly” is not a tame statement of fact; it’s a highly charged statement of opinion, really no different from “light skin is prettier.” It’s a judgment based on cultural prejudices–ones shared by a majority of Westerners, to be sure, but prejudices all the same.

    Actually, I have to say I’m totally bored by this little public squabble, but perhaps now you’ll shut the fuck up about fat people and stick to what you’re actually good at, which is giving sex advice.

  42. Different strokes. Honestly, at Dan’s age I think he should GAIN a few pounds to look a little more manly and hot. The super skinny theatre gay look isn’t as effective after 35.

  44. Wow. I am in shock that this ridiculous argument about “fat” has gotten out of hand and that Dan is being assaulted for absolutely no reason. I have never ever felt that Dan was anything but fair on the topic of fat and obesity. I cannot BELIEVE people are calling Dan “fat-phobic”. He is upset about the obesity epidemic, as EVERYONE should be, and has always always always distinguished between ‘obesity caused by bad decisions’ and ‘overweight but happy’. Whether people accept it or not, significant weight loss or gain DOES often affect how attractive a spouse/girlfriend/boyfriend/partner finds you, which is why it often comes up in Dan’s column. On occasion, Dan has brought up gently encouraging a partner to make healthier decisions but has never said anything like “If you’re partner is not a supermodel you should shame them into losing every last pound for my enjoyment” which is what it seems like everyone on this thread seems to think. In fact, if someone wrote in complaining about not being attracted to a skinny person they were dating, I bet that Dan would encourage them to find someone plumper to love. OH WAIT, THAT HAPPENED ALREADY.

    http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Savag&hellip;

  45. Well written.

    Being an advice columnist is bound to offend people. You’re giving people ideas of how to make their life better which implies that some ways of living are worse. You can’t write advice on fashion (for instance) without implying that some ways of dress aren’t flattering (as you did).

    Someone who is seeking to accept a part of themselves that is shamed by society at large will no doubt see you reinforcing those attitudes. To a point, this is inevitable.

    For example, I had problems finding work when I first started listening. Society puts the unemployed down. Your advice (at the time) seemed like an attack… Saying “be employed to get a date” just made me have a harder time getting to a place where I could accept my situation.

    But it wasn’t an attack. And neither is fashion advice (however subjective) about what’s flattering on people of a certain body type. And neither is advice that people should eat healthier. Or advice that being in shape can help people get dates.

    Keep doing what you do. Much love.

  47. The problem with the obesity epidemic as reported by the news is similar to the problems of ‘binge drinking’ as reported by the news. Seeing as most people don’t actually know what constitutes obesity on a technical level (as @50 says, the terms ‘overweight’ ‘fat’ and ‘obese’ are generally interchanged, despite having clear separate definitions) means that in people’s mind the statistics are far different from reality. That you can be defined as obese by your doctor, and as such add to the statistics for it, while not being considered more then ‘a little bit fat’ by non-medical people you come into contact with means that while obesity is a huge problem in the western world, a lot of people don’t actually know what they’re talking about when they spout statistics (like the poster upthread who referred to 16/18 as not being seriously fat, when it’s likely that someone that size would be termed obese, depending on their height).

    The huge problem with the obesity epidemic (and one that some FA people are willing to tackle, but many others aren’t) is that while *roughly speaking* eat less and exercise, more might result in weight loss for many people, the state of food available to many of these people, compounded with their income and distance from that food means that for many people, eating healthier is a huge burden they can’t meet. (If you have to take public transport for an hour to get groceries, and you work full time, you’re not going to be buying expensive fresh produce that’ll go off before you next get a chance to shop)

    If the only solution to the HIV crisis was to say ‘buy condoms and have less sex’, you’d probably agree that while technically correct advice, it would be woefully underserving those at risk not to do things like have more access to health clinics for education and testing, and to invest money in prevention, treatment and cures. But it doesn’t matter how much the government say ‘eat less’ if half the food most people have available to them is full of additives and corn syrup.

  48. It’s baffling that anybody would think a few examples of times when Savage restrained himself from being a total prick to fat people somehow “disproves” that he nonetheless has the ongoing habit of attacking and shaming fat people. He doesn’t abuse fat people every day, in every utterance. Sometimes he talks about the subject in a polite-ish and sort of reasonable way.

    The problem isn’t all the times when he isn’t making fat people feel like shit for no good cause. The problem is the times when he does, and that keeps doing it. And has the gall to think he’s going to put a stop to the obesity epidemic by indulging in free fire asshollery to the epidemic’s victims.

  49. @290 Misanthrope: I guess I don’t see those comments as hurtful or cruel…snarky, yes, but he’s that way on a lot of issues, and that’s part of what makes him enjoyable to read. He’s not Obama, where he has to moderate every word he speaks. But, to be fair, I was never offened, at all, by the “ham” description, I thought it was funny as hell, so maybe my slightly twisted sense of humour has something to do with it. And I don’t think he should be kowtowing to feminists, either. But, it’s clear that 1000+ people were offended, so it’s obviously a sensitive issue, I just don’t think that muzzling him is the right response. But that’s my take on it, I seem to be in the minority on this one.

  50. Dan, thank you for responding to this nonsense. I really don’t understand what people are getting all upset about. Yes, fat people are discriminated against in society. Yes, fat women are especially demonized. But being obese is a fucking choice. Being big-boned naturally or having 10-20 lbs extra is one thing, but being 50 lbs. overweight? That’s a lifestyle choice.
    I’m not saying it’s easy to choose a different path. People are seriously fucking addicted to food just like alcoholics are seriously fucking addicted to alcohol. You can eat or drink yourself to death, but you are choosing to do so. People DO NOT choose to be poor or gay or whatever fucking age they are or whatever fucking skin color they happen to have. That’s the difference. Fat people weren’t born fat people. They might have a genetic predisposition towards being overweight, just like children of alcoholic often have a genetic predisposition toward being alcoholics, but becoming fat or an alcoholic is ultimately a choice. I don’t think we should actively discriminate against fat people or alcoholics, but to declare their lifestyle choices off-limits for discussion is ridiculous.

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