I’m a 21-year-old woman from Canada who sleeps with other women. Two questions for you:
1. My LGBT friends and I disagree about what we girls who sleep with girls exclusively should call ourselves. Everyone else prefers “lesbian” and bitches at me for hating that word. Can’t I call myself gay?
2. I am a really kinky person: I’ve been very sexually active and into BDSM since I was 16. I have a large toy collection and many of the toys are dildos and anal plugs. I like anal a lot, but the thought of vaginal just doesn’t interest me, so I’ve never gone there. I’ve read about how breaking the hymen can hurt and—despite the fact that I enjoy being flogged and scratched—that scares me a little. Should I get over it and go to town or stick with everything else that works for me?
Good Gay Girl
1. You can call yourself whatever you like, GGG, and your friends can call themselves whatever they like. They’re entitled to their opinions, however, along with their preferred labels. Friends should be able to discuss their differing opinions and preferences without bitching and/or being so thin-skinned that a calm discussion about a sensitive subject is mistaken for bitching.
2. “Tearing the hymen doesn’t always hurt and rarely hurts with any severity,” says Debby Herbenick, sex researcher, vulva puppeteer, and coauthor (with Vanessa Schick) of Read My Lips: A Complete Guide to the Vagina and Vulva. “Going slow with a smallish, well-lubricated dildo is a good place to start, or two or three well-lubricated fingers. Doing this while highly aroused sets you up for a better experience.”
But before you explore vaginal penetration, GGG, Herbenick recommends a trip to your nearest female-friendly sex-toy shop.
“If most of your toys have been used in the anus/rectum,” says Herbenick, “it would be wise to get a new vagina toy.”
And if you’re broke?
“Then put a condom over a clean anal toy or clean a nonporous (glass, medical-grade silicone) anal toy before using it in the sensitive vagina,” says Herbenick.
While most women enjoy vaginal penetration, GGG, not all women do. (And most women who enjoy vaginal penetration require additional, focused, and intense stimulation of the clit in order to get off.) If you decide vaginal penetration isn’t for you, that’s also a preference to which you’re entitled.
I was chatting with a guy, and he mentioned that one time this girl accidentally vomited all over him during oral sex. He confessed that this turned him on. I consider myself GGG, but that is not something I’m game for. The thought of puking in a sexual scenario is completely unappealing. Does my refusal to do this revoke my GGG card? Or is this so out of the norm that I can refuse without losing my GGG card?
Pleasing Upchucking = Kinky Extremism?
Let’s revisit my original definition of GGG: “GGG stands for good, giving, and game, which is what we should all strive to be for our sex partners. Think good in bed, giving equal time and equal pleasure, and game for anything—within reason.”
Some kinksters skip past the “within reason” part of the definition when they’re discussing kinks with vanilla partners. They shouldn’t. Extreme bondage or SM, shit and puke, emotionally tricky humiliation play, demanding that your partner have sex with other people because it turns you on (asking your partner to assume all of the physical risks that go along with that, to say nothing of the emotional risks for a partner who isn’t interested in having sex with other people), etc.—all of that falls under the FTF exclusion, or a “fetish too far,” which you’ll find in the fine print on the back of your GGG card, PUKE.
I’m a 20-year-old female college student living with my 23-year-old boyfriend. We’ve been dating for two years, and our sex life has always been awesome. My boyfriend has a high libido, so high that I can’t always get him off when he wants it. He says I don’t want to have sex with him, when we have sex probably four times a week and I’m totally happy to give him head, jerk him off, or take off my clothes for him any other time he asks. Whenever we sit down together, he’s immediately horny and he gets cranky when I have to say no. Is this a ridiculously high libido? I try to be GGG, and he does the same for me, but I hate feeling guilty about not having sex with him constantly. I’ve started just telling him to masturbate to porn, and he does it willingly but usually whines a little first about how I “never” want to have sex. Totally false! My body just can’t take it every day. What do I do?
My Boyfriend Is Incredibly Horny
At two years, your boyfriend is getting vaginal intercourse four times a week, MBIIH, along with handjobs, blowjobs, and you standing there naked whenever he likes? Plus a cheerful okay to watch porn and jerk it whenever he feels the need?
You’re not trying to be GGG, MBIIH, you are GGG.
Your boyfriend doesn’t realize how good he’s got it. He isn’t lacking for sex; what he lacks is perspective. He clearly doesn’t understand or appreciate what it’s like to be on the receiving end of all that dick. Saying something like this might help him understand: “You know I love you, honey, and you know I love having sex with you. But if your hole got fucked every time we had ‘sex,’ you wouldn’t want to have ‘sex’ more than four times a week, either.” (I’m putting “sex” in quotes here because your boyfriend defines sex as “vaginal intercourse.” I do not. Oral, handjobs, and visuals-with-a-partner—all of that counts as sex.)
If that doesn’t do the trick, MBIIH, buy your boyfriend a dildo that’s roughly the same size as his dick. Then tell him he can fuck your hole whenever he wants, for as long as he wants—so long as he fucks his own hole first, while you watch, for at least 20 minutes or so. Then he can fuck yours.
That might help him appreciate how good he’s got it.
Never heard of you until a year ago.
I’m into “ball busting”—getting slapped or kicked in the nuts—but my wife was never willing. I did something stupid and saw an escort, just to get my balls busted (no sex), and my wife found out. She was talking about divorce when she told her best friend what was going on. Her friend told her to read your archives first.
You probably don’t hear this from conservative Christian Republicans in red states very often, Mr. Savage, but my sense of honor requires it of me: Thank you for saving my marriage. This “GGG” concept of yours transformed our marriage—it also led my wife to either discover or open up about her kink—and we are happier than ever. It isn’t lost on me that I have a gay man to thank for keeping us from becoming another sad divorce statistic.
Busted And Loving Life Supremely
You’re welcome, BALLS, and all I ask in return for saving your marriage—besides video—is your support for the full legal recognition of mine. Deal?
@188
“Multiple partners in relationships…can’t keep one together, huh? Not a big surprise.”
Well adjusted folks who live in big cities enjoy each others’ company, and tend to move on to get schooling/jobs thousands of miles away. Problem?
I agree, but I think – as someone else pointed out – the “most men” and “most women” bellcurves are enough seperated that most women on high end can get away with it. I consider myself to have a pretty high sex drive and I’ve never been with a guy who couldn’t match it.
Sex is a fantastic study aid. Helps you focus. 🙂
@210, there are plenty of high libido women who have written to Dan about their low-libido husbands. Women who blog about their secret sex lives are also often in this situation. Prowling with Kat, for one example. http://shackledkat.blogspot.com/
Plenty total and plenty proportionately are different things. I’m usually suspicious of that kind of thing off the bat though. Makes me wonder if something fishy is going on.
That’s pretty much my worst nightmare. I could never cheat. If I somehow ended up with a man like that one day I would drop him in two seconds.
Yeah I read one blog post and it pretty much made me want to pull a Sylvia Plath in the kitchen.
@213
I love my body.
It looks the way I want it to and I have no interest in losing fat (I would look anorexic if I lost weight) or gaining muscle (I have enough tone) which is what going to the gym would accomplish.
But I’m female and blessed with a fast metabolism. If I were a man it might be a different story.
I’m on board with the visual thing, but that energy goes more into lingerie/etc than the gym. Also, being the receptive partner it’s generally the man in the equation that does the heavy lifting sex-wise so I haven’t had much problem getting tired or hitting a wall (erm… metaphorically). I think short sex can for sure be intense, but I know what you mean, you don’t get to that trancelike place. I like a mixture, but if I’m getting off, I’m getting off and I can do that quickly so why not?
I don’t know how other straight couples feel but that’s my two cents.
@212: You and I seem to read off the same page about cheating. I couldn’t do that, either.
And I agree with EricaP: I love the idea of sex as a study aid!
That could work off a lot of tension.
@192:
See, that’s just so odd to me. Intellectually, I understand perfectly well that my priorities don’t represent some universal human norm, but on an emotional level, the notion that a person seeking a partner would prioritize sex drive over personality and looks is just incredibly . . . alien. Given a choice between (a) someone whom I found more attractive and interesting, but who wanted sex only half as much as I did and (b) someone whom I found less attractive and interesting, but who wanted sex exactly as much as I did, I’d absolutely choose (a) and make up the difference with masturbation. (I’m assuming here that the difference between attractiveness and interestingness is significant but not massive — i.e., the higher-sexed partner would still be moderately attractive/interesting, just appreciably less so than the lower-sexed partner. I’m also assuming that there would be no difference in the quality of sex, just the quantity.)
At a certain point, mismatched sex drives would become a deal-breaker for me — offhand, I’d say that once a week would be the lower limit of acceptability for me. But I just can’t imagine breaking up with somebody simply because I had to get myself off some of the time. To me, that would be like breaking up with somebody because we didn’t always take turns cooking each other wonderful homemade dinners and sitting down to a nice meal together every single night of the week. Some nights you just have to make yourself a sandwich, you know? Although I guess for some people, masturbation is less like a sandwich, and more like a single crouton. Which is just . . . huh.
(Again, I’m not saying anybody is bad or wrong for having different relationship priorities than I do; I’m just marveling at the incredibly diverse priorities that people have.)
@201: I like quarky people.
@210, 212: It’s not solely about sex drive. A hetero woman who has a high sex drive and cares about sex probably needs to prioritize not just having a high sex drive in her partners, but also sexual creativity, similar preferences, being GGG, and so on.
@216: I would without any hesitation choose (b), assuming I had to be monogamous with one of them. As I’ve said before, for me masturbation is like being hungry and looking at a picture of really delicious food. It’s not even in the same category as partnersex.
Choosing (a) is incredibly alien to me. Aside from not getting enough partnersex, it would cause all sorts of problems in the relationship. I’d be resentful and feel unloved and taken advantage of. She’d feel constantly pressured. It would just be emotionally painful and lead to a lot of fighting.
@217
Having a sex drive doesn’t necessarily mean that the person is also kinky. But you’re right, they usually go hand in hand. I’m pretty GGG (in my mind) but I’m happy with fairly vanilla sex so long as it’s with someone attractive and it’s good. I usually use food as an analogy. Some people like things that are exotic or interesting or fancy. Some people are fine with simple meals as long as they’re made with high quality ingredients. A really amazing steak doesn’t need much, you know?
But that’s me, and I’m definitely weird in that way, I’ll admit it. Most high sex drive women are more along the lines of being kinky. Don’t get me wrong, I went through the adventurous phase, but nothing stuck.
Your masturbation analogy is DEAD ON. I could not agree with you any more than I already do.
@216
I agree. I would never choose a relationship with someone who lacked other qualities because of their sex drive. I don’t need to. If I’m not attracted to someone, I wouldn’t want to have sex with them all the time. Who would?
But I will admit that maybe other qualities might take a back seat, but they’re icing qualities, they’re sprinkle qualities, they’re not dealbreakers.
You people criticizing Dan for telling the GGG Horndog Boyfriend he has it good have probably never been married.
4 blissful times a week before marriage equals 1-2 times per month after about a year of marriage.
Gee, I wonder what 4 exasperated, ‘accommodating’ times per week before marriage equals after? Twice a year maybe with a go jack off to porn the rest of the time? If they stay together the putz will learn the meaning of the word “never” and you can take that to the bank.
For our lesbian friend, she is into BDSM but afraid to break her hyman? This smells to me like some aversion to cock. She sounds like a man-hating lesbian to the point she can’t even engage in role play with her girlfriends that even resembles M-F traditional intercourse.
Finally, since I have pissed off the lesbians, let me pis off the gay men and answer for our conservative religious friend. Many, perhaps most Conservatives are fine with laws permitting civil unions and conferring THE SAME RIGHTS and protections as marriage. The objection to changing the definition of the word ‘marriage’ is mostly semantics. Strangely, most gays have hooted down these suggestions. Could it just be there is another agenda at work besides granting gay men the stability of a legally supported long-term relationship? Conservatives see these attacks on tried and tested social institutions by gays as a backdoor (sorry, had to say it) assault on our culture. Not judging, just educating.
Professor, I’m sorry you had such an unhappy marriage.
http://www.letmejerk.com for more info
http://www.letmejerk.com for more info
Prof, from my own encounters with conservatives, you’re not right. Most of them are not OK with equal rights even via civil unions.
Oh, and I’m married, and believe me: 4 times per week is not enough. To us it’s more like once per day, twice on weekends and holidays. 🙂
@ BlackRose, mydriasis:
Huh, different strokes for different folks, I guess. Me, I love masturbating. (The things one admits in the Savage Love comments section . . . ) It can’t replace all the best parts of partner sex — kissing, feeling naked skin against your own, giving somebody else pleasure, playing around with power dynamics — but it’s a quick, easy, reliable way to make my body feel realllly good.
@218: Hmm? No, I wasn’t talking about being kinky… I just meant that compatibility is about more than just drive. Even if you have two people with the same high sex drive, one might love doggy style and the other hate it, one might love dirty talk and the other hate it, one might be interested in age play and the other refuse to date someone with any interest in age play, and so on.
So, a high sex-drive woman may easily be able to find a high sex-drive man, but finding one who is sexually compatible and good in bed might be more difficult and require prioritizing sex over other things you want in a partner.
I take for granted that Professor is trolling, but he (she?) does bring up an interesting point. If there is any truth to the idea that frequency of sex goes down after marriage, what causes it?
The passage of time in that many people’s sexual desires go down with the ebbing hormones of age?
Sleeping with the same person over time?
Seeing that same person over time in so many non-sexual situations like doing housework or working on the computer?
Or something about commitment?
All of the above, plus children.
Children =
people who physically get in the way;
a new, non-sexy role for the wife;
preceded by a period of extreme body change;
accompanied by a period of lack of sleep;
I can understand what the Professor is going through. When my gf and I were dating we were doing it almost daily with anal as least once a month. Now that we are married it’s maybe once a week and we’ve done anal once in 6 years.
How do you test for libido compatibility if it changes after marriage.
Btw, we do not have kids.
@ 211. That’s true. I think what happens is that certain couples get together and marry, and then have no idea enough yet, through life experience, to know to be around a partner who wants it as much as they do, or at least, in similar-enough measure.
I’ve always found emotional connectedness to a partner to be the most sexual thing, the most fulfilling thing: being able to feel it enough to be comfortable to engage in a new thing or two between the two of you..
It takes all kinds, I suppose. You have to wanna boink the one you’re married to, though. Marrying your best friend who is also the best fuck in the world, too. THAT’S what it’s about! Some settle for less. Some have no choice to. Some have no choice to not settle for less, somehow.. It takes all kinds. Just know what your actual kindly taste is in what you like in life. If more people did, they wouldn’t wind up so much in sexually-loveless marriages and relationships. I’m 42: I’m not wasting Any time on a connection that doesn’t mean shit, hasn’t withstood the test of time or brings no genuine cool and joy to the picture. I get to thinking no one else should, either.. Everyone has their own path..
BALLS made me well up , actually. I was an exchristian for years, but I never really got out from those views on sexuality, even though I thought I had, until I found your column. Now? Well now my g/f pegs like a master amongst several other things.
@233 – what does your wife enjoy, sexually? Can you open up a conversation about what you each like, and explain that you would like to reboot your sex life, to make it more fun for both of you, and not feel like another chore she is supposed to do?
@blackrose
Oh – hm! Yes, I suppose you have a point there. But wouldn’t that be just as true in relationships where sex is a low priority? I mean, if you’re already stuggling to keep up with your partners libido, wouldn’t it be even HARDER if they want to do things you’re not really into?
@236, I know she likes riding me (I love it too!). I’ve tried talking about it but it only makes me more frustrated. Based on our last conversation, no woman likes oral or anal either though we used to do plenty of both.
@238 – How old is she, and are you her first sexual partner? Does she masturbate at all? Will she tell you what she thinks about when she masturbates? Does she have a vibrator, that maybe she could use during sex with you? Does she enjoy it when you go down on her?
When women use sex to move the relationship forward, sometimes they forget to focus on their own sexual pleasure. I would start by trying to refocus on her orgasms (by whatever means she enjoys to get to orgasm).
During a calm conversation sometime, you may also want to explain to her how her rejections make you feel bad. If none of that works, you may need to tell her that you love her, but you need more sexual connection — something has to change or the marriage will collapse.
@239 – In her 40s, I’m in my 30s. We are both pretty experienced before we met. She has toys, I’ve suggested that we used then before with no response. I’ve asked her is she wanted to use one on me. She used to play with herself, I don’t know if she still does. I’ve asked her if I could watch sometime and she said no. When I’m in the mood to go down I get turned away. Her favorite way to get there is by riding, which she does, every time. She always comes first although sometimes I come at the same time she does. Only certain positions are allowed and only in the bedroom. This is in complete contrast to when we were dating. Oh, guess I’m doomed to a Fleshbot.
@240 – you have no kids, you’re young, your wife is refusing real intimacy (sharing what turns each of you on, being open to trying new things)… Why are you unwilling to consider leaving her?
230, 231– An answer to my own question. I’d guess that a big part of the frequency of sex going down after marriage has to do with the knowledge that it will always be available later. I thought of this today while at the library browsing for entertainment fiction. I have a house full of books I haven’t read. I was reaching for something and wondered if I had it at home. I thought of how I like library books because I have 3 weeks to read them. The due date helps. With the books at home, I can read them any time so too often I don’t.
That’s a wild comparison for sex, but there might be something to it. When dating, sex is special, something you might not be able to do later. You don’t know where the relationship is heading so you get it in while you can. Once married, you can do it now, or you can do it later. The temptation to put it off becomes ingrained.
For 240– If she doesn’t view the (non) frequency of sex as a problem, she has no reason to fix it. I’d suggest that you first tell her that you’re unhappy. Then get her to her GYN as quick as you can. If she’s in her 40s, her hormones may be dropping naturally as she enters peri-menopause. (She’s in her 40s. There’s a much bigger difference between 41, 45, and 49 than there is between 31, 35, and 39. Which is it?) It could be happening so slowly that she doesn’t realize how that’s affecting her desire.
I can’t say from here, but in this case, I’d look for a physical-medical explanation/solution first and mental-medical explanation/solution only when the former is exhausted.
I suspect that when a lot of people become more familiar with someone, they lose attraction. New shiny things are exciting. And someone who only has or wants sex when he/she’s feeling the intense attraction butterflies will be much more likely to reduce the frequency over time.
240: From here it appears that roles you have fallen into are that your wife is the one who sets terms unilaterally, while you are the one who makes suggestions, accommodates, or works around the situation, but you have no power.
You need to decide whether this is important enough to walk away from the marriage over. If it is important enough, tell her that this is a partnership, and you are done being the junior partner. That things need to change such that your needs are taken care of with equal importance to hers, or you will leave.
As #242 says, if it isn’t a problem to her currently, then she has no incentive to change. Right now everything is just the way she likes it. Why would she want to change? It has to become a problem to her. Hopefully the prospect of you divorcing her will be seen as enough of a problem to get her up off her comfortable throne.
If it isn’t important enough to follow through on that, then resign yourself to accepting that whatever she says goes.
avast, again your approach to relationships somewhat disturbs me.
“As #242 says, if it isn’t a problem to her currently, then she has no incentive to change. Right now everything is just the way she likes it. Why would she want to change? It has to become a problem to her. Hopefully the prospect of you divorcing her will be seen as enough of a problem to get her up off her comfortable throne. “
Again, suggesting punishment/threats/enforcement in a relationship. Do you see that as healthy? What about empathy? If the only way that she’ll care is if she’s threatened than the relationship has deeper problems. She should care if he has a problem, she should care because she loves him. That’s how relationships work. Not based on blackmail, ultimatums and threats.
But whatever, that’s just my opinion.
@231 EricaP: You just listed many reasons why I chose to remain childless.
Plus, I had unshakable beliefs of being a shitty mom, compared to my amazingly selfless incredible mother.
@245: That’s the ideal, but real life seldom works out so nicely. She doesn’t care. And 240 seems very passive about the whole thing, so it’s possible she doesn’t realize the full extent of the problem. It’s also possible that because 240 is so passive, she sees him as weak and stopped caring for and loving him for that reason, and the love will return once he stands up for himself.
Don’t you think that you can’t let people mistreat you, and that you have to disincentivize them from doing so? A lot of times people in LTRs take each other for granted, and it’s important to set up personal boundaries (which is a nicer way of thinking of threats or enforcement).
245: Of course she SHOULD care. Did you read the comments to which I’m responding? He has already tried the reasonable approach. He talks to her. He makes suggestions, he asks questions, et cetera. His suggestions either get no response whatsoever, or get shot down. Things get done the way she likes it, period.
I’m not suggesting “punishment” or “threats”, I’m suggesting that he has a right to get his needs met. Surely you don’t disagree with that premise? If she won’t meet them then he should get them met somewhere else. But he also owes it to the relationship to give her fair notice that he has reached his limits, to give her a chance to reevaluate the fact that she has been being lazy in meeting him halfway. Or would you prefer that he simply serve papers?
@237: True, it’s probably easier for a hetero woman with a high sex drive to find someone compatible, but at the same time having a sex drive means you’re more likely to care about and value sex. A person with a low drive might be less likely to think of sexual compatibility as important in choosing a partner, even though you’re correct that such an incompatibility is only going to make the sex drive mismatch worse later on. My point was responding to 205 and 208, where we were talking about prioritizing sexual compatibility over other things at the beginning, where you’re choosing who to date.
Because I have a high sex drive, sex is one of my values, right up there with love and happiness and good conversations and all that good stuff. So I’m more likely to want to prioritize it, seek out someone who feels similarly, and value compatibility in that area above other areas. A hetero woman with a low drive probably wouldn’t be as likely to do that, and one with a high drive might be much more picky about compatibility because sex is so much more important to her.
I like Lucy’s presence on the show. I’ve been so busy that I got far behind on my podcasts and I’m listening to about 5 in a row. It’s shocking to hear the negative comments from people. I believe those people have a problem with change but it’s refreshing to have things tossed around a bit. I wish I were at the airport in Queens when Lucy got home.
@240(b51), mydriasis, avast, BlackRose, it’s an interesting conversation you’re having. I’ll add only one comment: it’s not clear to me why the woman in question is not responding or empathisizing with her partner’s lack of satisfaction with their sexual life. When he said he brought the topic up but was refused, I wondered whether she was ‘shy’ about sex; but what he said about how frequent and varied sex was before suggests that it’s not the case she considers sex a shameful topic per se (I assume that, before, in their ‘dating’ phase, she not only had more and more varied sex with him, but also talked about it more freely).
So indeed it has to be changes in the libido. And that may be something she’s ashamed to talk about. You see, you are (especiallly avast) suggesting that she’s just being mean: since I don’t feel I have a problem, I, the High Queen, don’t think there’s anything I should do. I suggest she may be in some sort of denial: she feels that something has changed (her level of desire, either in general or for him in particular, has dwindled), feels guilty about it at some level, and, as people often do with things they feel guilty about, simply avoids and denies the problem to herself and to him. Because it’s always less hurtful to pretend that nothing is happening, when you think (correctly or not) that it’s “your fault.”
Maybe if these feelings are addressed in a converation, she might be willing to talk calmly about the problem and face it as something that they might still solve as a couple, i.e. as a team of two who do really care about each other’s well-being?
@242(Crinoline), you may be onto something there: what looks like a sure thing also looks like something that will be there later, so I can postpone it now and do something else instead.
At least in my experience, that is especially strong when there are other distractions, like a challenging/interesting work (due to my research, I am sometimes off to South America for months at a time, depending on which project I’m working on), or, especially, children. All EricaP said about children is true.
To my wife and me, it was important to keep the sexual connection going despite the distractions that took energy away from it. It did help, for instance, that the kinks we shared could sometimes be used to sexually energize us even when other things were going on. Even when we were taking care of our daughter, as she played with cubes on the floor or crawled around, I could massage her shoulders in a special way that slightly arouses her and makes her giggle that special I-know-what-you’re-thinking-about giggle that makes her feel desired; or she could play with my kinks (say, the submissive one by discreetly offering me her hand to kiss; or the cuckold one by saying something indirect that suggests she’s having an affair, and then smiling and raising her eyebrow in that special way that sends butterflies up and down my body). Granted, this is not sex, especially not if it has to stop there, because the daughter is in the room, and we’re taking care of her, and in a few minutes one of us has to prepare her baby food and vitamins or put her in a stroller for a walk or change her diapers or… or… or… But still, these little actions that mean there is sexual energy flowing between us — we share a little secret, I desire you, you desire me, wink-wink — keep the sexual/fantasy part of our minds working in the background even as we go about the business of taking care of our daughter. Later on, when we finally do get an opportunity of having sex, things feel better — even if we only have time for a quickie, it feels like it had started several hours before already.
Again, it’s not the same thing as actually having the entire day for yourself. But it helps. Especially because of the team work feeling (something that @240(b51) above, alas, is not having): sex does feel like this thing we both care about, and if we can’t get to it because of external circumstances (our beloved daughter), then darn it, but we still see in each other’s eyes that we want it.
I guess feeling desired is important, even to a man, and can to some extent keep the sex thing going even when you don’t have much time for actual sex.
@252:
Ankylosaur, you nailed it when you wrote:
“I guess feeling desired is important, even to a man, and can to some extent keep the sex thing going even when you don’t have much time for actual sex.”
THIS is what is so often missing in long-term relationships, after a while. The phrase “taken for granted” is an attempt to address it, but it’s used as a catch-all for so many other things that the sexual element, the link to expressed desire, gets dropped out of the explicit meaning.
@251
Thank you for that. That is pretty much exactly what I would have said (except more eloquently).
@Blackrose.
Ah that’s where we got tripped up. The difference between what happens and what should happen. You’re right, I think people with low sex drives probably don’t factor in sexual things when picking who to date. Which is a shame because I think it’s almost more important for them in a sense, for the reason you mentioned.
I guess I just balk at the word “prioritize”. Do I prioritize it over music preference? Yes, sure. But I don’t prioritize it over important things (like looks, compatibility, shared values). In a partner I want all the important things. Without them, someone isn’t an option. If that makes sense.
I don’t know about other people but I don’t have a ranked-by-importance-list of the traits I want. I have a list of things that must be there and then a couple “likes” that would be nice to have. Sex is on the first list, and a low sex drive woman might put it in the second list. But the situation that Erica suggested where one may have to choose between an average looking man with an average sex drive and a gorgeous man with a low sex drive. I’d pick neither. In my experience it’s been worth it to wait for what I want.
Just want to say thank you. Keep the thoughts rolling please.
233,238, 240, and the whole discussion– I’m certainly not in b651’s wife’s situation, but I know enough about insecurity to think I understand her a little.
I realize it’s not the same thing, but when I was in my 20’s, I was so insecure about not coming that I couldn’t talk about it– to anyone, not the guy I was sleeping with, not my best friends, certainly not a doctor or therapist. I was insecure about sexual performance. I was just sure I was doing something wrong though the men I was sleeping with were enthusiastic enough. When there was a break-up, deep down I assumed it was because I was inadequate in bed. I never talked to anyone about that either. I turned some dryness and first-time jitters into a whole complex. I was insecure when I wasn’t attracted to a man I thought I “should” be attracted to. I blamed myself and lectured myself about how he fit the physical type I’d told myself I liked and was nice and smart and said all the right things. That was the one I was finally able to talk about a little. The others took me years before I could even acknowledge to myself much less articulate in words to others.
So my situation isn’t anything like b651’s wife’s except that I suspect there’s something very deep in her that she perceives as so horrible that she can’t admit it even to herself. In the light of day, it’s probably nowhere close to horrible and probably fairly common, but she doesn’t know that. She does what anyone would in her situation. She clams up. She brushes off her husband’s questions about what she would like because she doesn’t know. She doesn’t want to talk about it because she doesn’t want to talk about it. She doesn’t know why she doesn’t enjoy the things she used to enjoy either. It sounds like she’s hurting and doing the best she can by avoiding the problem or pretending there isn’t one. Except it’s deeper than that. The way I said it, she acknowledges a problem in her own mind and is pretending for her husband. I’d guess she’s so upset and weirded out about her lack of desire that she doesn’t acknowledge it even to herself. Or maybe I’m just projecting.
(It reminds me of the futility of asking a teenager why he didn’t do his homework. Chances are that if there is a reason, he doesn’t know what it is.)
This is why I recommend an intervention. Many people assume that an intervention is just confrontation, but the idea also encompasses a plan in place to solve the problem. It’s not just telling her that he’s unhappy enough to consider a divorce. It’s telling her that he’s unhappy and wants to do whatever it takes to heal the situation and here’s an appointment with a gynecologist and a therapist that they can go to together or each go alone because he’s committed to making things better including considering that he might be contributing to the unhappiness and is willing to change.
I’d round up the usual suspects: menopause, hormonal birth control, depression, medicines used to treat depression, symptoms or medical conditions that sometimes are associated with sex like an increased likelihood of urinary tract infections or anal bleeding. (If you’re embarrassed about liking anal sex, imagine going to a doctor and explaining about a little blood. Then imagine that the blood has nothing to with anal sex and a colonoscopy is in order.)
But consider that it could be anything. B651 doesn’t say anything about his own physical condition. Maybe she’s not as turned on by him as he’s gotten older and is embarrassed by that. The list goes on and on.
@256(Crinoline), yes, that’s what I was thinking (@251); she’s ashamed of something and doesn’t want to talk about it because it’s always less hurtful to not talk, to pretend there isn’t anything to talk about, especially if you think it’s “your fault”, that “you shouldn’t be like that,” etc.
So, paradoxically, precisely because you don’t want to discuss that which hurts, you hurt. And you hurt others (in this case b651). Aren’t humans fascinating? 🙂
I thought an intervention meant several people together talking to the target person, no? Wouldn’t it be simpler for b651 and his wife to have an open-heart conversation, where both try to empathize with each other? Where he says he understands she may feel insecure or guilty about something that is affecting her libido, but that he is ready to accept it because he loves her, and whatever it is they can assess it together as a team, we’re on the same boat, I don’t just want to satisfy myself, I want us to work better together as a couple, etc. etc.?
@everyone that has commented on my postings. Thank you for your response and feedback. This has been very helpful and informative. Dan won’t be getting a letter for me, please take that as a compliment.
The “no power” comment is spot on. I am a people pleaser. My wife and I have talked about how this is a pro and a con. I am passive except for issues that I have a passion for (biking, science). Otherwise I prefer to go with the flow. I am very passive in bed until she comes (not complaining since I love it when she rides me) and then I want full control. Sometimes I get this, sometimes I get laughed at. For example, I wanted to do doggystyle but then got laughed at because I cannot find the hole covered by bush. Why not offer some help in getting me in there?
I love my wife. When I asked her to marry me I wanted a life long commitment with her. Our sex life has changed dramatically after marriage. I think the book analogy is a great example of what I am going through. I’ve realized that being GGG can also mean accepting less action. I love my wife and have no complaints except for this area.
I will try talking to her again. She is amazing in the sack. She has done things with her hands, mouth, front and back that have made me explode without me doing anything. No women before has been able to do this. I give positive statements and encouragement while we are doing things but do not receive any feedback. The comment about “feeling desired is important” is spot on. I feel taken for granted. She rides, comes, then does the bare minimum for me to come.
My first wife was a CPOS and it was very painful experience. I will not be CPOS and disrespect my wife. As for leaving her, I do not think this is enough to warrant a divorce. Also, divorce is very expensive, at least $10K in attorney fees plus losing at least 60% of my assets. It is not worth it although I think marriage should have a “get out of jail free” card.
As I have gotten older I have gained weight. So has she, I’m not complaining about her weight gain which is more than mine. F*ck, I just want to be inside her more.
Final note, if you see a guy purchasing PIT toys at an adult shop please do not judge. The guy is very lonely or trying to save his marriage. Or Both.
Thank you again for your response and feedback. It has been very helpful.
@253(nocutename), indeed. And the little petty problems of everyday life tend to erode this “sexual connection” between partners (‘what? you forgot to buy bread? so how’re gonna make a sandwich for our daughter to take to school tomorrow? now, in this cold night, I have to take the car and drive all the way to that avondwinkel (shop open after 8pm) to buy bread for tomorrow! and it’s all your fault!’). This kind of thing tends to make you see your partner as a little bit of an enemy (‘s/he could have remembered to buy bread! it was his/her turn, not mine!’), and, if it adds up to some sort of pattern, ends up with people blaming each other in an extraordinarily sexiness-killing kind of way.
I remember Dan once expressing exasperation at the fact that his husband Terry apparently couldn’t learn to put the mayonnaise back in the refrigerator. That’s also one of those daily-routine sexiness-killing things. Dan learned to accept that as part of the ‘price of admission’, and part of learning how not to see your spouse as an enemy is doing exactly that.
One often has to make a conscious effort to rise above that; to remember that the same person who forgot to buy bread or didn’t put the mayonnaise back in the refrigerator is also the one who has the sexiest eyebrow-raising reflex and who has that little soft spot between her breasts that feels sooo good to kiss… that these two people are not in contradiction to each other. It’s not as if one of them were a cover, a thin vein for the other.
One of the surprising things in partnered life to me was that doing that does not come automatically, that all the love you feel somehow doesn’t make the erosive power of everyday life any less erosive, and that you do have to make conscious efforts to keep the sex thing going.
@259 – yes, but when we often have an undertone of sexual fun (as you described so well @252), then it doesn’t require much “conscious effort” to keep it going. We have a familiar sexy vocabulary (in body language more than actual language) to defuse little flare-ups of irritation quickly, and to turn a fight into hot sex.
On the other hand, I worry that maybe in the future we’ll find these sexy routines too routine…
@258 I’m glad you’ve found a lot of useful advice in these comments. Personally, I can highly recommend David Schnarch’s book Passionate Marriage. It helped us understand and talk about insecurities we were still carrying from our adolescence (as Crinoline laid out so well @256).
@256, Crinoline, I wonder if you could talk more about what has worked well in fighting your insecurities about orgasms.
I spent my adolescence thinking I wasn’t pretty enough to attract male interest; then in my twenties I figured out how to act sexy and be attractive that way.
In my 40s, dating again, I’ve found that I have the sexy thing down, so I can get men into bed. But the fact that I am good at looking sexy, and happy to get them off, isn’t enough for a long-term sexual connection. Many guys are also looking for that sense of power that comes from giving intense pleasure to their partner. And here my body is letting me down, so much that I almost feel as bad as I did in adolescence, except that the stakes are lower because I’m trying to add spice to a happy life, not worrying that I’ll stay a virgin forever.
Men find it hard to give me orgasms, and that’s a turn-off for them. (It’s not impossible; I can give them a road-map, but it’s not fast or easy and works roughly 50% of the time. Generally, they complain about hand-cramps and want to hear that the orgasm is close at hand. Sigh. Or they could use the vibrator, which works 100% of the time, and makes me happy – but then they’re unhappy that technology was required.) I’m solving this problem by hooking up with kinky men who take pride in pushing my masochist buttons, so we don’t have to struggle with my orgasms. I just get them later, at home. But I am more tempted to fake orgasm with sexy vanilla men than I have ever been before. I haven’t gone there yet, but it keeps insinuating itself into my mind — “our sex would be so much hotter for him if he thought he had just made me come.” And I’m a pleaser, like b651, so it’s very very tempting…
@258, I wish you lots of good luck while talking to your wife! If your marriage is great in all other areas, this means she does love you, right? She would feel empathy with a problem you had (at work, or with your health) and want to help you solve it, wouldn’t she? That should be a basis for a good talk.
If she feels less desire, or even specifically less desire for you (say, because of the weight gain), and is afraid of hurting you by saying so… ultimately it ends up hurting you more that her sexual behavior became so formulaic and repetitive when your pleasure is concerned, right? It will be better to be honest about this issue, so that the two of you can know where you stand and then plan what to do.
Again, good luck!
@260, yes, the body language is crucial (I keep going back to my wife’s personal eyebrow-raising reflex. When she does it on purpose, just because she knows the effect it has on me, it’s both sweet and arousing.) And after you get it going, it’s not terribly hard.
But I did find that getting it started wasn’t automatic. Both my wife and I had expectations, both from previous lovers and from ‘things everybody knows’, about what should or shouldn’t work; and sometimes when an effort at getting the ‘undertone of sexual fun’ going didn’t work, the one who tried it can feel a bit angry at the other (‘but you were supposed to find that sexy!’). It did take us some conscious effort to concentrate on each other, find out what work and what didn’t, and (especially important!) not get slightly offended or angry that something didn’t work.
All in all, we’ve managed well, though. Like you, it seems the next theoretical round of problems will be, “and what if maybe in the future we’ll find these sexy routines too routine…”? But that’s a second-tier problem, I think; that means we’ve already had success in the first phases, which gives us some built-up strength; enough, I hope, to be able to cross that bridge when (if?) we get to it. 🙂