I’m a longtime reader who
thought I’d never have a reason to write since I’m universally known as
the “good girl.” I have a close male friend. Even though I knew he was
dating someone else, we became friends-with-benefits several years ago.
Because of his relationship (and the fact that he lives with her!),
sometimes it felt like a booty call; other times, it felt like it was
leading to something more. He once admitted that if things were
different, he could see us together. But a while ago I discovered that
while he was unfaithful to her, he had also been unfaithful to me.
On to the point: He recently proposed to his
girlfriend. I’m happy for him if it’s what he truly wants, but I feel
like he did it out of desperation. All I know is that there were some
ultimatums involved. Here is my dilemma: I don’t want to out myself, I
don’t want to hurt him, and I don’t want to ruin our friendship, Dan,
but I feel like she has to know what her fiancé is really like
before they get married. Should I anonymously contact her and let her
know that her man is a cheating man-whore? Thanks!
One Of Many Other Women
Gee… it must have come as a real shock
when you realized that a man who was capable of cheating on his live-in
girlfriend was also capable of cheating on the girl with whom he was
cheating on his live-in girlfriend. No one could’ve predicted, huh?
On to your question: I hate to think of some
poor woman marrying a cheating piece of shit (CPOS)—a CPOS is not
to be confused with an honest nonmonogamous dude (HND)—in
ignorance of his cheating-piece-of-shit-ness. It’s possible that the
CPOS’s fiancée already knows and has forgiven him; perhaps one
of those ultimatums touched on cheating. But odds are better that this
woman doesn’t know, and someone really ought to clue her in before the
wedding. But should that person be you?
I’m not comfortable with your motives,
OOMOW. You may be known throughout the universe as a “good
girl”—as the good girl—but your actions prove that
you’re something of a “bad girl.” And there’s more: Your desire to
destroy your FWB’s relationship proves that you’re something of a
“vindictive girl,” your attempt to pass your vindictiveness off as
concern for a woman you’ve repeatedly wronged proves that you’re a
“self-deluding girl,” and your desire to accomplish all of this without
paying any price yourself—you don’t want to out yourself or risk
ruining your “friendship” with the CPOS—proves that you’re a
“selfish girl” and a “cowardly girl.”
Come on, OOMOW: The reason you want to do
this anonymously is because your top concern is having the CPOS all to
yourself, and that means sticking a knife in his current relationship
without leaving any fingerprints. So it’s a good thing—a useful
thing—that you weren’t the only “other woman” in his life, OOMOW,
because he’ll never know for sure which one of his other women ratted
him out.
Setting your highly suspect motives
aside…
If I were in the fiancée’s shoes, I
would want to know what was going on before the wedding. So I do think
you should tell her. But if you have any shred of decency—even
the tiniest bit—you will tell her personally, apologize
profusely, and provide her with some proof. An anonymous tip won’t cut
it: A CPOS who has successfully hidden a collection of other women from
his fiancée will be able to talk his way out of an anonymous
accusation of infidelity. He’ll either claim the e-mail was sent by a
vindictive ex-girlfriend of his, which has the benefit of being very
nearly true, or he’ll claim that an ex-boyfriend of hers is trying to
destroy her happiness.
Finally, OOMOW, why do you want to be with
the CPOS? He cheated on his fiancée, he cheated on you, and he
probably cheated on the women who he was cheating on the both of you
with. He’s a piece of shit, his fiancée is a fool, and you’re a
vindictive, self-deluding, selfish coward. I’m not sure if you can all
do better, or that any of you deserve better, but I do think you should
all try.
I’m a hetero girl. I love
masturbating, but I get nothing from hetero porn. I can’t stand the
girls’ annoying voices. So I rely on gay porn. I tend to go for what
you gay guys call “twinks.” (Who the hell is a twink, technically
speaking? Please don’t tell me it’s anything statutory!) I’m not
concerned, just curious: I get really intrigued when I meet gay guys in
real life because I get off to so many in porn. I would love to watch
two twinks in reality at some point, but I’m not sure if gay guys would
be into that.
Twink Lover
Twinks are boyish gay men—boyish
men, not boyish boys—in their late teens to
mid-20s with slim-to-slightly-muscular bodies and relatively hairless
chins, chests, crotches, etc. So long as you’re getting your
live-action porn from reputable porn sites and companies, TL, you don’t
have anything to worry about on the statutory front.
As for watching a couple of twinks go at it,
there are lots of bisexual twinks out there—perhaps you could
date one and have the odd three-way with others? There are also,
without a doubt, some twink couples out there as turned on by the idea
of some straight girl watching them go at it as you are turned on by
the idea of watching. And thanks to the World Wide Interfluffer,
finding them—or renting them—is easier than ever. And
speaking of twinks…
However much Playgirl paid Levi
Johnston for that photo shoot, it wasn’t enough. Most people thought
Playgirl—which ceased publishing in print a while
ago—was dead and gone forever. Prior to this photo shoot with
Johnston, who even knew that Playgirl had a website? Or that
Playgirl had a publicist? A publicist who had this to say
after the shoot: “We were talking in the greenroom about gay
categories—bear, cubs—and Levi asked what his type would
be. We decided a twink, but older, so we anointed him a ‘twunk.'”
I love the idea of a twunk—an older
twink—but Levi Johnston is 19 years old. How old is a
twink supposed to be if a 19-year-old is already an aged twunk? No, no:
Johnston was never a twink. He is a high-school jock—the hockey
variety, to the delight of gear fetishists everywhere—gone
slightly to seed. But what’s more interesting than sorting Johnston
into his exact gay etymological category is watching Johnston, once a
major homophobe, become increasingly comfortable with teh gays.
Celebrity—that’s what he is now—means having to hang out
and work with (and work for) a certain number of out homos. Homophobia
is a luxury that Levi can’t afford anymore.
And, psst, Levi? If you did that
Playgirl shoot only to drive your former future mother-in-law
crazy—and if that was your plan, kiddo, it worked—imagine
how much crazier she’ll get if you do a little gay-for-pay porn. Just
sayin’. 
ATTENTION HOLIDAY SHOPPERS: The
Stranger‘s annual holiday auction—Stranger-crombie—is
on now and benefits several worthy local charities. Go to thestranger.com/strangercrombie for details, bargains, and hotties.
Twunk. Ha.
I wonder what her friends are like if she’s “The Good Girl?”
I don’t think OOMOW needs to say anything to anyone… just get the fuck out. Leave. Don’t look back. That guy, and his so-called marriage are a disaster about to happen anyway. Just leave. Let them sort their massive shit out (or more realistically, let that massive shit hit the fan and spread out like a mushroom cloud) and don’t be there. Just leave.
I also don’t think Levi was truly homophobic, just ignorant. He’s dumb and opportunistic (like George W. Bush), but he doesn’t seem outright evil (like Phelps).
Re OOMOW Dan, I’m not sure about your advice that she *should* tell the fiancee. She seems far too flippant about being the “good girl” and him a “cheating man-whore” – surely she should be honest with herself and realise that she is just as much a cheater as he is. If she was so good and moral and concerned in the first place, she should never have started sleeping with him. You have alluded to all of this and I think most of your advice is spot on, however, we don’t know what has gone on with the fiancee. Why should she, he or they rub the fiancee’s nose in it, non-anonymously or otherwise? I think the “good girl” should stay good and keep quiet.
no dipshits have said first yet
“and someone really ought to clue her in before the wedding.”
Never. Everyone should just mind their own business. OOMOW’s business needs to be not sleeping with guys in relationships, and she doesn’t need to expand her business into dramatic confrontations and wedding sabotage. OOMOW does not have adequate information to make or second guess life-decisions for the other women.
Dan, your advice to OOMOW was on the money. Kudos for seeing through her motives and calling her on it and for putting the naive fiancee’s needs in the forefront.
Now that you’ve told OOMOW exactly how she should handle the situation, my guess is that she won’t take either decent option (tipping off the fiancee in person or anonymously). Please let us know how this one plays out in future, if possible.
@ #3 you’re right on, dude. Just leave!
and to #5…oh yes they have!
Good advice Mr. Savage, especially to OOMOW. I have the feeling OOMOW might be acting passive-aggressively towards the CPOS, wanting revenge for lying to her, but she won’t actually say that because she’s the “good girl” that wants everyone to win in the end.
As for the last letter, speaking of heteros watching same-sex porn, has anyone else read the research study that compared the quality of sperm between men watching heterosexual porn and lesbian porn? I’m sure a lot of people have, because the news spread across the interwebs pretty quickly. As it turns out, watching hetero porn improves a man’s virility. It’s because he sees the other man in the video as competition, so he produces better quality sperm to better his odds at impregnating a woman. I cannot be the only person that knows this. I read it on Pharyngula:
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/…
Apparently, the more men present in a porno, the better a heterosexual man’s quality of sperm. I wonder though, maybe the men watching lesbian-sex produced lesser quality sperm because they are not very comfortable with homosexuality … as unfavorable that conclusion may be. I also wonder what would happen if they tested this on homosexual men … would they find the same thing? More men in a video means better quality sperm all around? I don’t fucking know, I don’t know what goes through a man’s head while they watch porn … but a girl can wonder. A girl can wonder.
Ha ha ha….
Dan’s response to OOMOW is what I read Savage Love for. Dishonest, cheating FUs put in their place.
OOMOW basically has two choices:
1) STFU, or
2) Tip off CPOS’ girlfriend, in person, or at least over the phone, and then prove she still has a few shreds of dignity left by never speaking to CPOS again, ever.
Of course, if she had enough backbone to cut CPOS out of her life, she would have a long time ago. So that basically just leaves option 1.
Oh, and women in straight porn totally have annoying voices. Are there guys that are actually turned on by high-pitched faker-than-fake moaning? I always mute that shit. Ugh.
Oh man, I could have written TL’s letter. Only thing is, I have a thing for twinkish straight boys “experimenting” with each other rather than if they were just gay boys… is there even a name for that? But conversely, I do get a similar kick out of imagining a young gay boy curious about women and I get to help with that particular experimentation… seriously, there’s gotta be a name for the kind of orientation-bending I love!
Great advice for Levi!
Dan – I always love reading your column, but I’m not sure that I agree with your advice to OOMOW. She’s not friends with the fiancee, so she doesn’t owe her anything personally. If she gets in the middle of this circus it will only cause terrible drama and recrimination.
I would say she should either 1) STFU or 2) Make the CPOS come clean. Tell him that she’ll say something if he doesn’t, but give him the chance to be honest about it first. If I were the fiancee, I’d rather hear it from my boyfriend with the subtext that he’s trying to be honest and put his bad conduct behind him… then there’s at least some chance of rebuilding trust, because it looks like he cares enough to start the marriage right.
ps. for proper inspiration, OOMOW should watch the Star Trek: TNG episode The First Duty, in which Patrick Stewart lays down the law on integrity and coming clean.
Incredible that OOMOW is a ” good girl.” I agree with all these other comments – she has no right to tell the fiancee, no reason to, and really no involvement in the situation. She just wants to feel as if she has had some sort of victory.
Yep, agree with your suggestion to OOMOW. However, given her professed whimpy behavior and lack of fibre (which she perceives as being a ‘good girl’), she probably will say nothing, stay friends with the cheating fiance and may even continue their relationship after he is married. So further suggeston should be if she chooses to keep her mouth shut she should stop her cheating with the guy.
“And, psst, Levi? If you did that Playgirl shoot only to drive your former future mother-in-law crazy—and if that was your plan, kiddo, it worked—imagine how much crazier she’ll get if you do a little gay-for-pay porn. Just sayin'”
Oooo, Dan! You read my mind! I would love both to see the porn, and to see that “lady” driven crazy (-er) 😀
3 – absolutely agreed! Even if she does tell the fiancee and provide proof, which she doesn’t want to do because it will risk her “friendship”, she would have to be willing to break off her relationship (friend and otherwise) with the CPOS.
If she tells naive fiancee (NF) anonymously, NF won’t believe it and will go ahead with the wedding anyway. When a woman is in “wedding-mode”, sound advice goes out the window.
She should really think about what she wants and what is motivating her. If she wants him, then tell him! Put the ball in his court, but don’t warn him you’re going to tell her. That will only make him think of something to say to NF to head OOMOW off at the pass. It’s all just a big ball of crap. Extract yourself from it, and don’t talk to any of them. Find other, better quality friends.
RE: Levi Johnston:
Who still thinks the Left lost the culture wars? We freakin’ WON, people! And we will win, forever, because our culture is popular culture!
OT, but “teh gays”?
I’m a professional editor, so I always notice typos, and this is the first time I’ve ever seen one in Dan’s column. Mazel tov on your staff’s fallibility, dude!
@Wayne: I’m all for typo pedantry, but that was intentional LOLspeak/L33Tspeak. As in, “teh ghey pr0n.”
I spend way too much time on teh Intarwebz.
“But a while ago I discovered that while he was unfaithful to her, he had also been unfaithful to me.”
Still laughing at that. Priceless.
Oh no, OOMOW, don’t delude yourself that informing the fiancee will make any difference in her plans. I’ve seen this go down before. The fiancee will rationalize it, discount it, make peace with it and marry the guy anyway.
Just as you would, honey, if you got half the chance, thereby signing yourself up for more of the same shit-cake he’s serving up to her. Walk away—and count yourself lucky. And be a little more selective, OK?
I thought your insight and comments to One of Many Other women was right on time!!! I’ve recently gotten hooked on your column and look forward to it every week.
A long time ago, I had a fuck buddy who was engaged and living with his gf. He later married her, and has three kids with her, and is still married to her more than 20 years later. During the first few years of that 20 years, I was still fucking him. I was married at the time, so I didn’t worry much about it, but I’m sure I wasn’t the only one on the side that he had. Is their marriage happy? I don’t know. Did she know about it? I think she probably did. She told me not to tease him once when she caught me flirting with him at a party. Then she said that he already called out my name when they were having sex.
Ya know what kills me about this girl’s delusions? It’s that she’s imagining the fiance making better emotional choices than she does for herself.
It seems to me that her fantasy is that the fiance learns of the affair and breaks off the engagement. So, if the “man-whore” returns to the “good girl,” good girl wins. If the “man-whore” doesn’t return but is hurt by the breakup, “the good (vindictive) girl” still wins.
The problem is that that fantasy presupposes that the fiance isn’t doing precisely what the good girl has been doing for several years–making rationalizations or turning a blind eye to the reality of her relationships. I mean, c’mon, “good girl’s” been cheating with someone who she claims is a “friend” but who she also clearly holds in contempt (gotta love that) and, during that whole time, convincing herself that she is “good.” By what measure? (What a way to treat your friends–keeping them mired in drama and then pointing to that drama as evidence of their moral inferiority.)
Is there a psychological term for projecting onto your sexual competition the backbone you wish you had???
@26 — You’re bragging about that scuzzy history??? ewwww….
Here’s what’s going to happen with OOMOW:
She ain’t gonna say shit to anyone – other than whatever it takes for her to keep getting the FWB action. She is ultimately too chicken to either sabotage the upcoming marriage or walk away from the whole mess. I predict this because it is the easiest course of action for her. Sooner or later, the bride to be will be writing to Dan – or, God forbid, Abby.
Who wants to bet OOMOW doesn’t follow anyone’s good advice? She just wants to make herself feel better.
And the awful moaning noises most women make in porn is criminal. I want to hear sexy noise, but when they’re super-shrill and shrieking “oh, yoh, yoh” at the top of their voices or just sounding like they’re being subjected to uncomfortable medical procedures, it’s a dreadful turn-off. Mute.
For Twink Lover –
There are bi guys who will do that for you. My boyfriend is one of those “I like sleeping with men but can’t fall in love with them” bi guys. Which works out great for me, we have a great relationship, a great sex life, and he is more than happy to satisfy my need to see guys hooking up. Don’t worry, I do favors for him too (:
“But a while ago I discovered that while he was unfaithful to her, he had also been unfaithful to me.”
And there you have it.
There is no “faithful” in a FWB relationship. That’s what makes them FWB, and not simply a boyfriend or girlfriend. She wants to come off as open and GGG, but yeah, she’s either deluding herself or she’s a fully aware manipulator and hypocrite.
Dan, why do you recycle SL of the day to the weekly column? I wait eagerly for everything you write (or voice) especially the column and get really disapointed when I see that material already appeared/originated on SLOG.
I am sure you can find plenty of fresh material for the column from the thousands of emails you receive every day.
You answering someone has probably the same odds as winning the lottery so just make someone’s else’s day instead of the same person twice.
@32: Nice call. Bang on.
@26 – great anecdote. @28 – spoilsport much?
Great…now when I am singing along with The Grinch Who Stole Christmas I will be singing: Twink…Twank…Twunk!
Thanks again for improving my vocabulary. I was VERY recently wondering what a ‘former twink’ would be called, and twunk fits the bill, so to speak.
So what if OOMOW doesn’t have a relationship with the fiancée?
When the lack of information may markedly effect how someone proceeds and has the potential for painful consequences, it is part of our obligation to care for each other, to speak up…
– You dropped something.
– Your house is on fire.
– Isn’t that your kid?
– I’m calling from inside the house.
– Your fiancée’s dick appears to be in a lot of other women.
Certainly, it would be better if this information was always provided altruistically and not as part of some manipulative fantasy, but the option to make an informed choice still has it’s own intrinsic worth.
“Even though I knew he was dating someone else, we became friends-with-benefits several years ago. Because of his relationship (and the fact that he lives with her!), sometimes it felt like a booty call…”
Wow. Ya think?
Been there. It felt like a booty call because it was one. Those times when it didn’t feel like a booty call where when you were deluding yourself into thinking that you were The One He Really Cared For. As you now know, not only were you not TOHERCF, but he’s not even much of a friend. Walk away, feel lucky you finally wised up, and get over it.
Dear OOMOW;
The good girl is the one he is marrying. He has a madonna/whore complex, where only madonnas are good enough to marry, and whores are for screwing. Madonna may be utterly naive, or more likely she fully appreciates her position and has already told him she just doesn’t want to know about what else he does. Dan is spot on about looking at your real motives. And give up on building a relationship with him. In this game, you are a whore, not a madonna.
– Been There.
I agree with Dan that “Good Girl”‘s motives are way out of wack, but I also agree that she should inform the fiancee… Not out of penitence, but to protect the health and long term happiness of the fiancee. Ideally, she would give the cheating guy the ultimatum to tell his Fiancee in 24 hours, then call if he doesn’t, but that may not work.
I think saying that It’s ‘None of her business’ and she should ‘STFU’ is a cop-out. I don’t expect her to do the right thing, but I think the right thing is informing the fiancee – At that point, the fiancee has more information on which to decide whether to DTMFA.
I am surprised by the advice to OOMOW. It seems like the advice all the advice that Amy and Prudence and Caroline, et. al. would give. OOMOW paints herself as someone who has been cheated on, but I see no evidence that he has made a vow to her that he will only have one relationship on the side.
The surprise is that since Dan usually says monogamy is not a realistic choice for most couples, that with this advice he seems to take for granted that an assumption of monogamy is the default mode for heterosexual relationships. I say he’s not a cheater unless he has made a vow to ‘foresake all others’.
Never be the messenger about someone else’s infidelity. The messenger will always get shot.
No matter whether the couple breaks up or stays together, neither one of them will want to have anything to do with you again. Even if you’re blameless 9which OOMOW isn’t) you will still be a painful reminder.
I had a friend an abusive relationship w/guy. It ended. She said she worried about the next GF. I said she should contact the woman. She said No, she’d only think I was jealous. Which in this case it certainly sounds like OOMOW is.
I have to disagree w/Dan. She shouldn’t say anything to the fiance. She (OOMOW) has caused enough problems. (“good girl” my aunt fanny!). She should simply never talk to either one again. Period.
Hey Dan, you should hire me as your copy editor. I used to edit your column for the Anchorage Press, and I would never let you write “teh” vs. “the.” Also, way to stick it to OOMOW, it sounds like she wants to rock the boat a lot more than “warn the fiancee.”
“Because of his relationship (and the fact that he lives with her!), sometimes it felt like a booty call; other times, it felt like it was leading to something more.”
Jesus, OOMOW, this sounds exactly like a situation I just went through. Maybe I’m one of your Many Other Other Women. If so, do what I did: I told the fiancee, provided ample proof, and walked away. Was I vindictive? Sure. But it felt good. And you know you want to do it, too. Don’t pretend you’re doing this for her benefit, though. This isn’t a UN humanitarian mission. It’s all about you wanting him to pay for his shitty behavior.
However, don’t be surprised if they stick together (a week after my confession, I spotted the happy couple strolling arm-in-arm past the winter squash at the farmers’ market). She probably already knows about his extracurricular activities, OOMOW. For some women, having a man in their life, even if he’s a CPOS, is more important than having dignity.
I would like to point out that the above person wrote, “For some women, having a man in their life, even if he’s a CPOS, is more important than having dignity,” not 10 sentences after having written, “this sounds exactly like a situation I just went through.”
Just sayin’.
I just have to say, the illustration this week is great.
That’s why my signature is “Older But Not Any Wiser”, PinKisses. Get it?
OOMOW is like a theif who steals from someone who then is the victim of theft. She now wants to go to the police and report her stolen goods have been stolen from her. There is no doubt the fiancee is wrong but, OOMOW help to facilitate that wrong doing and now wants to “warn” the bride to be. GTFOH!!! As Black chruch folk like to say “what you do in the dark will always come to the light.” Long term affairs never end well and they always come back to bite you in the ass. Just ask Tiger Woods….lol
@38 – exactly. I don’t get the comments that say not to tell fiance because OOMOW doesn’t have the right to make life decisions for another woman. The fiance has a right to all the information so she can make the decision for herself.