I’m a 27-year-old gay man. I had a really great first couple of dates with a guy, so for the third date I invited him to stay over. I cooked dinner, we watched a movie, and we had a lovely time in bed. In the morning, we had another romp. At one point, he was rimming me, and unexpectedly, unintentionally, I farted in his mouth a little. His reaction was along the lines of “EW! EWWWW! EW!” Mine was along the lines of trying to apologize through uncontrollable laughter. I said, “C’mere” and pulled him in to kiss me, and we finished with what I thought was minimal awkwardness.

Later in the day, to be cute, and even perhaps start a long-term shared joke, I sent an e-card that read, “I’m sorry for farting in your mouth.” He sent the following text message: “i’m not sure about this. yr a sweet guy but i’m dating some other people… i just can’t have farts in my mouth. i would have handled it a bit more respectfully.”

Is a sense of humor about the inevitable off-color moments too much to expect? I mean, this was one strike you’re out, not even a chance to talk it over. He dumped me over TEXT, for fuck’s sake! Good riddance, I suppose. But did I really handle this wrong?

Flatulent Anilingus Result: Termination

You handled this beautifully, FART—that’s why you got dumped via text message.

They don’t cover this in sex ed, I realize, but the average idiot knows there’s just one thing a person wants from someone who’s just “unexpectedly” farted in his mouth, even just a little, and it’s not an e-card. It’s a lengthy, abject, mortified, immediate, and heartfelt apology. And after a rimmee farts—a blessedly rare occurrence—it’s the rimmer’s response that sets the tone. Your guest was horrified and disgusted. You needed to take your emotional cues from him, FART, make your apologies and express or fake genuine remorse.

Instead, you laughed in his face, pulled him in for a kiss, and sent him a flip e-card. Basically, you did everything you could to give this guy the impression that you’re either an inconsiderate asshole incapable of reading another person’s emotional cues, FART, or that you may actually be into farts—or worse—and that you intentionally farted in his mouth. I would’ve dumped you, too.

Yes, a sense of humor about those off-color moments is not too much to expect. But no relationship progresses to the laughing-off-the-fart-in-your-mouth stage, FART, until after—long after—you’ve demonstrated to the person you’re dating that you’re a fundamentally decent, considerate person, worthy of their time and affections.

Every so often, I have to fight the urge to contact an ex-boyfriend. It didn’t end well (I cheated). I’m happily married, have two children, and live in a completely different part of the country now. Yet, I feel sad that we don’t still know each other. The reasons for the indiscretion include, among other things, stupidity and youth. (Also the fact that the indiscretion involved a different ex-boyfriend who begged and pleaded for one final hurrah—and then I told the then-current [now-ex] boyfriend that it was forced, which it wasn’t, which the then-current [now-ex] boyfriend rightly didn’t believe.)

I know my reasons are selfish: I want to explain myself, I want to move on, I want to be forgiven. But if he wanted to be in contact with me, he would be. And yet, like a crazed idiot, I still hold out hope that someday he’ll contact me or that we’ll bump into each other. Should I contact him?

Can’t Let Go

You should suck it up, CLG.

It’s killing you that someone out there might hate your guts (with cause), might think you’re scum (because you behaved like scum), and, we can safely presume at this stage, is content to have you out of his life (otherwise he would’ve looked you up on Facebook by now). This bothers you because you’re not scum, of course; no person is defined by the two worst mistakes she ever made. (I’m referring to (1) cheating and (2) making a false accusation of rape. What would’ve happened if your then-current [now-ex] boyfriend had gone to the police? Or taken the law into his own hands? Thank God your then-current [now-ex] boyfriend didn’t believe you.)

I don’t think you should contact him, CLG, not until you’re a little more interested in what you could give him (a long-overdue apology) and a little less interested in what he could give you (absolution).

My wife and I divorced three years ago. Six months ago, I began seeing a good friend of my daughter’s. I knew this was dangerous territory, but I really liked this girl. A month ago, we took our relationship public. My daughter reacted poorly. She did not demand that we break up, but she let me know that the relationship made her uncomfortable. And she was rightfully upset about some personal information my girlfriend had told me about her.

During the past four weeks, my daughter has gradually edged my girlfriend out of her personal life. She has also begun to spend less time with me. She tells me she does not want me to have to choose between her and my girlfriend; although, if she stops spending time with me, that’s exactly what she’s doing. I know she’s upset. But I’m a grown man, and I just want to be happy. And in spite of the age difference, my girlfriend makes me very happy. What can I do to make my daughter more comfortable with my new relationship?

Father Doesn’t Always Know Best

P.S. The information my girlfriend shared about my daughter was inconsequential: the name of a young man she was seeing and that my daughter purchased an expensive dress.

It’s nice to know that your girlfriend manages to make you happy “in spite of the age difference.” Too many late-middle-aged men succumb to despair in the arms of their much-younger girlfriends. Anyway…

What can you do to make your daughter comfortable with you fucking her friend while her friend blabs to you? Nothing. Your daughter may eventually become comfortable with your relationship, FDAKB, but there’s nothing you can do to artificially force up her comfort level. And while emotional blackmail—”My girlfriend makes me happy, but I will sacrifice my happiness for you, darling, if that’s what you want…”—may result in your daughter spending more time with you and your girlfriend now, her resentment at being blackmailed will do irreparable damage to your relationship with her over the long run.

So just shut the fuck up, Dad, stop whining, and continue to enjoy the girlfriend in spite of the age difference. Then apologize to your daughter for (1) keeping the relationship from her for so long (your daughter may be losing sleep over things she told her friend before she found out you were fucking) and (2) the “inconsequential” invasion of her privacy that already took place. Then give your daughter the space she needs and the privacy she has a right to.

I will be answering love and sex questions in Questionland on April 22. Visit thestranger.com/questionland to ask me questions and see my answers.

mail@savagelove.net

198 replies on “Savage Love”

  1. -My daughter reacted poorly-

    Excuse me? What did he expect, Cheers & Champagne?
    She reacted in an adult and respectful manner, IMO.

    Dad is acting like a spoilt child.

  2. Bunch of narcissist P’s of S. Dad’s a self-absorbed shitbag who puts his own happiness above his daughter’s; cheating Borderline girlfriend wants to fuck her ex despite having a family, and makes up BS excuses about it; jackass can’t stop thinking about himself long enough to pay attention to what his date might need. And then a caravan of commenters excusing it all because, I guess, paying attention to and caring about others in the world is unhip. Pathetic.

  3. My father is 10 years older than my mother, she was not his first wife, and eventually my father shacked up with a young girl that was 20 years younger than him. He has been married 3 times? 4 times? Each time trading in for a younger model. “Surprisingly” it didn’t work out with my step mother either. He was getting old and dealing with issues that people deal with as they age past a certain point and started to think more with his brain instead of his dick and found a woman his OWN age…who he is now really happy with, the best I have ever seen him my entire life so far.

    I like, much like my mother, am also attracted to “older” men. I do obey the “halfway” rule I have given myself, which if the guy is over the halfway mark that makes him closer to my moms age than me, I wont go there. Not because its just “creepy” but because I have respect for myself and I know that with that huge of an age gap it will never last so I would rather not waste my time and effort.

    A lot of people have that “code” of where you DO NOT date your friend’s ex boyfriend or girlfriend. A lot of people do not even go after their brother and sister. A father or mother falls under that same category. Its not all about age, but most definitely has more to do with the relationship.

    My best female friend has a few brothers not too much different in age to me and a single father. I would never ever even think of going there with them because I have respect for her and cherish our friendship. The chances of one of them “being the one” as far as that I settle down with and marry, is by far extremely slim to none. Even if she was “cool” with it at first, break ups do usually get messy and childish and make people “take sides”. It’s just not worth it.

    Again, the daughter is doing the absolute right thing to just stay out of it and let her so-called friend and her father figure out what they are doing on their own. Then when they break up she doesn’t have to be around for the aftermath. Eventually things will smooth over and a relationship would be more open to repairing then, when all is said and done.

  4. Dad dating his daughter’s friend?

    Hey, sorry, you already made your choice jerk. And you chose to have a hot girlfriend over your relationship with your daughter. Period.

    Consider me totally skeeved.

    I also think expecting her to ever get over it is unreasonable and ridiculous. Why should she? She now knows that her dad considers her peers cruising fodder and bonking them is more important than she is. If she doesn’t pass his test of acting comfortable, he cuts her out.

  5. When I was in my 20s (post-college, out of my dad’s house), I dated a guy who was in his 40s. Although he wasn’t as old as my parents, he was older than the people my parents eventually married.

    My parents didn’t like this at all.

    So, for what it’s worth, I’ve been that girl, although I don’t think our short-lived relationship was typical of these situations. For one thing, the person he dated before me was a guy his own age. When we were dating, he was also seeing a colleague his own age (female). We liked each other because we were both activists in the queer community, we had several friends in common, and his lifestyle was much more similar to mine than my parents’. My lesbian friends all approved of him.

    And I still think that FDAKB should never have gone down this path. Like many other commentors, I don’t the the age difference is the heart of the issue. It’s the fact that he’s dating his daughter’s friend.

    He said he was aware of the dangers but he “really liked this girl.” That is hardly justification. To step over that boundary, you had better feel certain that you want to marry this woman.

    It sounds to me that the daughter is handling this in a far more sophisticated and mature way than her dad. She says that she doesn’t want to make her father choose between her and his girlfriend. Most would not be that generous.

    FDAKB, you are this girl’s dad. I assume she is a grown adult (and, therefore, that your GF is as well), and yes, there’s a point where you don’t always put your children’s needs before your own, but C’MON.

    I agree with Dan that there’s no such thing as “the one,” so the least you can do is stay away from your daughter’s friends. And if the woman you’re dating is the only hot young thing who would look at you, that should tell you something.

  6. @62 No, I don’t actually. Everyone has a libido, and most everyone uses it. Hell there’s been older men that I’ve flirted with. But there’s a big difference between hitting on someone younger then you and being a creep about it. That guy all alone thats about 15-20 years older then everyone else at the bar and only talks to girls who are obviously trashed? CREEPY. That 15-20 years older then you guy that starts a conversation politely, possibly based on a common interest or situation? Not creepy (usually). Banging someone 20 years younger then you? High five man. Banging your daughters best friend? CREEPY.

  7. I am sorry but FART is better off. What on G-d’s green earth does one expect when their mouth is one someone else’s anus–Chanel No. 5? Presumably the other guy was no virgin, either, so he should have expected a little incidental output. He should be glad there wasn’t, as someone so richly described here a few weeks ago, a bullet in the chamber. And he should have been glad FART still wanted to kiss him after that.

    FART, and the rest of us, are all better off sleeping with people with a sense of humor. As for ass play, anyone going in there not knowing that, um, shit happens gets what he or she deserves. JMTC.

  9. FART asked the wrong sex columnist about his problem. Dan doesn’t think farts are funny; he never ever mentions them with any sense of humor. Maybe his older brother tortured him with farts in the face or something when he was a kid.
    I too think FART was embarassed and that’s why he laughed as he appologized. When faces are near asses, the occasional oops happens. Hopefully he’ll be further along in the next potential relationship, if it happens again.

  10. I think FART did totally the right thing! My boyfriend and I have had many embarrassing moments like this, he farted and came simultaneously whilst I was giving him a blow job once (I laughed so hard I fell off the bed), I head butted him in the nose whilst cumming once and gave him a bad nose bleed, he farted on my chest once during a session. All of these things resulted in furious laughter (and at least one of these occurred on our first night together). FART is well rid of the guy who can’t see the humour in the grossness. Someone who appreciates the funny will come along one day.

  11. FART’s ex needs to quit being a whiny baby and get over himself. You have your tongue on a guy’s asshole, you dumbass! Does he also dumb anyone who gets a sudden burp when they’re making out, too?

    Gross things happen, especially during sexual acts. You either laugh about it and move on, or you cry and run away. Anyone who does the latter is just depressingly full of themselves. Life’s too short to take things like this so seriously.

  12. It’s one thing to try to defuse a situation like FART’s by trying to laugh it off at the time. But IMHO he crossed the line at bringing it up after that. After receiving the e-card, the fartee probably thought (and rightfully so, given that FART admitted to having sent the e-card to “perhaps start a long-term shared joke”) that this was an incident he’d have to hear about for years if he remained with FART.

    I understand that embarassing things happen on dates. But the knowledge that catching a mouthful of flatulence could be one of the first recurring anecdotes of a relationship would be a deal-breaker for me.

  13. I’m sorry, but if my Dad dated one of my friends I’d be pissed. I say that it’s only appropriate if the Dad would have no problem allowing his daughter to date one of HIS friends….

  15. @15 “It’s not like FART excreted on his lover’s head while cackling like a maniac.” was the funniest thing I’ve read in a long time… thank you

  16. I feel a great deal empathy for FART and also feel a great deal of empathy with the response.

    My partner was versatile, and I’m a top with little interest in bottoming. The relationship was still rather new, so I was still hesitant to be fully GGG to his “top” needs at the time. However, I was willing to engage in a little frottage as the “bottom” partner.

    During once such encounter, there was a bit of a “slip” which caused him to inadvertently and unexpectedly “stab” me in a way that wasn’t particularly pleasant.

    After the initial shock and pain of that experience, I’d made a few jokes in an attempt to ease the tension caused by that moment. One such comment I’d made was, “I hope when I finally let you fuck me, you’ll be a hell of a lot more gentle than THAT!”

    He wasn’t so amused by my joking. Our relationship ended not long after.

    To this day, I don’t know if my jokes at his expense angered him because he was genuinely embarrassed by his little “slip,” or if it’s because he was actually hoping his little “accident” would’ve made me moan out in ecstasy and beg for more.

  17. So your advice to the first two were great but for FART – wow Dan, when did you grow a vagina and start writing your letters with your period blood? He farted in the guys mouth – yeah it’s gross, but like smegma, santorum, and letting one rip during the throes of passion, it happens.

    I think all FART did was try to difuse a situation that could’ve been insanely awkward afterwards and make it something funny. If the rimmer didnt have a fart in his mouth, sorry, stick in his ass, those two would’ve been happily fucking now. I’d rather the long running joke than the rimmer crying and whining and talking about his feelings over an already insanely embarassing situation.

    But hey, can’t get’em all right I suppose.

  18. @117 “So your advice to the first two were great but for FART – wow Dan, when did you grow a vagina and start writing your letters with your period blood?”

    Seriously? That is a pretty juvenile response. It’s not like Dan started saying shit like, “Eww icky boys are icky.” Even if Dan was all revolted he didn’t bash the e-card guy, he just said that he would have ended things as well. He also said “after a rimmee farts—a blessedly rare occurrence”, showing that he is AWARE that it does happen so you telling him that yeah it happens, is pretty pointless.

    Also, turning an awkward situation into an unwanted long running joke or “crying and whining and talking about his feelings over an already insanely embarrassing situation” are not the only two options, but rather seem like two extremes.

    Note that Dan did not say that this long drawn out heartfelt feelings talk was much needed, but a REAL apology, without laughing at the guy consistently.

    For you to turn that into pretty much calling Dan a pussy is pretty ridiculous. Genitals aside, exercise your brain muscle, as it is pretty weak.

  19. FDAKB, just as you have the right to betray your daughter’s trust (by bonking her best friend), you’re daughter has every right to want you out her life. I know I would. You’re a creeper, FDAKB…

  20. Re FART: The sheer incongruity of expecting some sort of DIGNITY out of that situation…?

    Didn’t he notice? He was tonguing your ass. Not exactly a dignified position under any circumstances. And then something unexpected and awkward — and let’s face it, hysterical, however sophomoric it may be to think so — happened. People who can’t laugh off something unexpected and awkward shouldn’t be doing things that so obviously put them at risk. It’s not like you were laughing AT HIM. Expecting some sort of grave heartfelt apology, with no trace of humor, considering the situation, indicates that he is a humorless twit, at least with regards to anything that might come across as a slight to his poor precious ego. The first time you make a REAL mistake, you can bet that you will pay, and pay, and pay.

    Count your blessings, FART. If the two of you had ever reversed roles, you would have been in serious danger of getting an eye poked out by the stick he keeps up there.

  21. Whoa.

    Listen. Old men get gross and flabby and wrinkly and balding too. And don’t give me that ‘George Clooney’ outlier shit either.

    USUALLY when very young women date much older men, it’s because he’s got a nice car, house, secure financial situation that hot young men their own age don’t. Girls after “maturity” would find someone in their mid-thirties, not late 40s-50s. Why is this so? Well, compare the number of very young men who date older women. It’s just not the same number is it. Why? Effed up societal expectations and this incorrect idea that men age better than women. ( At least women at 50 still have all their hair).

    Parents and kids owe it to each other to PRETEND that they don’t have sex. Why? Cos thinking about your parent (or child) having sex means that you’re picturing your parent (or child) naked, which is gross and uncomfortable and sorta incestuous. Fucking your kids’ friend ruins your kid’s friendship. That’s a bitch move to pull on your own child. When together or in mixed company, they can no longer talk about sex or confide in each other (something most twenty-something year olds do on a regular basis). There are lines you don’t cross. That’s one of them.

  22. Creepy Dad has the same stuck-in-adolescence-selfish-mentality of many men who can’t hold the interest of their female peers: “Why doesn’t the world admire me when I’m indulging myself?” They really can’t or won’t see that they look ridiculous, not hot, and shallow and ‘tarded, not cool. Which isn’t a big deal — until they start complaining about other people’s perfectly normal reactions to them. I feel sorry both for his daughter and for the YAD he’s boinking.

    And I think it’s time someone did a real scientific study on the incidence of farting during sex. Is it as rare as Le Sauvage says?

  23. anybody that has been fucked in the ass knows that there r a million things that can go wrong…..

    and that there r many different ways to react to any one of those…..

    being at the bottom end of things is complicated enough, and while I have never farted on someone’s face, stuff has happened beyond my control…

    believe me, after a good fucking, ur body control is not normal….

    anyway, my point being that I have acted mortified (genuinely), apologized profusely, done all the things that Dan suggested, and quite frankly, that did not prevent me from getting dumped…. via text or otherwise…..

    I have also gotten dumped when nothing went wrong…..

    the real issue here is, in my view, having sex after 3 dates….. that is too soon…… also, it seems that there were a lot other things that were not discussed between those two guys, such as dating exclusively…..

    sex should only come into play when both parties r not dating anyone else……

    otherwise it is just informal, free-style, fuck-buddying….. and in that situation, anything can happen, including getting dumped via text…

  24. @102 “cheating Borderline girlfriend wants to fuck her ex despite having a family”

    Oh, so you’ve met my ex, have you? Or were you just reading my mind?

  25. @121: “(At least women at 50 still have all their hair).”

    Well, yeah, but baldness (for men) is a lot sexier than it used to be. Baldness for women? A much longer road to walk.

  26. “Parents and kids owe it to each other to PRETEND that they don’t have sex.”

    Read that five times.

    If by the fourth one you don’t feel like an idiot, you are one.

    Are we supposed to pretend we don’t eat, shit and breath too? Asshole.

  27. Letter 1- Dan’s right, it’s the “victim” of the inevitable awkward moment that gets to decide the resolution- I totally understand the helpless laughing fit because I myself have a terrible tendancy to break up into fits of laughter when the unspeakable happens (Thank you, God, for allowing me to never have passed gas at a delicate moment!), but the guy should have read his date’s reaction a bit more carefully and offerred a sincere, laughter-free apology for the incident instead of an e-card (Which I hope he had to customize because I hate to think that a “Sorry I farted in your mouth card” is available ready-made).
    In any event, because these two gentlemen are not on the same page about the “sense of humour” question, the relationship was doomed anyway. You cannot have a successful union with someone whose sense of humour is vastly different from your own.

    Letter 2- What a miserable, nasty excuse for a human. I would have been quite sympathetic about the screwing the ex, I was young, stupid, thoughtless and impulsive to the point of recklessness myself many moons ago, so I’d have been inclined to view the cheating through that lens but to accuse an innocent of rape? That is unforgivable! Not only did she run the risk of destroying the life of a blameless man, but by lying she made it that much harder for a woman who truly WAS the victim of an acquaintence rape to be believed. Date rape is real. It happens and while it is typically less physically injurious than a stranger attack, it leaves different and sometimes deeper emotional scars and any woman who falsely cries rape should be required to attend every rape crises group meeting in three counties and apologize to every person present for her callousless, cowardice and opportunism….. Oh, and this little twit needs to leave her ex alone and concentrate on not fucking over her spouse.

    Letter 3- Hey, Dad- When you chase your children’s peers, you risk alienating your children. Deal with it. You got a girlfriend at the price of your daughter having to feel that she can’t speak freely to you or to the friend you’re now fucking because she, rightfully, worries that her confidences (however inconsequential) will become pillow talk and you’ve madly upset the basic structure of your daughter’s social life…. besides that, it is creepy to a young person to have their parent carrying on with someone from their own social circle… to your daughter, it’s almost as if you went to a family reunion to find a date, it’s THAT creepy in her eyes.

  28. letter 2 and 3 are real sickos. and to letter 1, i’ve farted in many a mouth and never encountered anyone so sensitive. i also didn’t humiliate them through email after the fact

  29. Pretty much with Dan on everything here, spot on advice. For all the people taking FART’s side because rimming was involved, I have to raise an eyebrow. FART is, presumably, a full grown adult with decent control of his bodily functions. How often do uncontrollable, unforeseen farts happen? You feel it building up, and yes, during sex you might not have the greatest control response, especially if someone’s tongue is in your ass. But it’s at moments like that that you direct the person away from rimming your ass, because you feel a fart building up and know you’re probably not going to be able to hold it in. The fact that he didn’t shows a lack of consideration. Yes, there is a small chance that a fart suddenly came on with no warning, but the chance is so tiny that I find it doubtful.

    But let’s give FART the benefit of the doubt. The dude FARTED in the guy’s MOUTH. Yes, there is some risk to rimming, as with any anal activity, but in my experience the rimming risk is basically infitesimal compared to the risk you run with a cock, toy, or even finger up the butt. You just can’t insert a tongue far enough to run a big risk of dislodging anything, so I don’t think it’s unrealistic for FART’s boyfriend to have a reasonable expectation to not have his mouth farted in. But let’s say it happens – unless you have a fetish for it, it’s pretty damn gross. If someone accidentally shat in your mouth, or pissed on you, and you were not into scat or piss, that’d be pretty gross. A fart might not be quite on that level, but it’s a similar unpleasant bodily function, and the fact that it’s going IN THE MOUTH makes the chances for gross out double, not to mention that it could come across as more disrespectful than farting on someone’s cock while they’re fucking you.

    The situation was something that could have been remedied, but only by FART acting like a respectful adult and not a 10 year old boy. I dated someone who’s sense of humor never left the juvenile phase – the kind of person who’s response to farting in someone’s mouth would be uncontrollable laughter, not embarrassment (most grown ups would feel embarrassed by that kind of loss of control of their body functions). Thank god he never did fart in my mouth. In my experience, that kind of sense of humor leads to much less of a desire to control such things, even in situations where it’s just rude and not funny, like eating at a restaurant with family members, or trying to have a hot moment in bed. A lot of humor has to do with appropriateness and timing, and FART’s reaction suggests that he has a juvenile sense of humor like this, and was too caught up in his own “Haha, I just farted in your FACE!” reaction to have a little empathy or mortification on the part of his partner. Basically, FART was laughing AT him. It’s only laughing “with” him if his BF is laughing too. Clearly he wasn’t, and that makes FART a jerk, not a funny guy.

  30. @121: “Listen. Old men get gross and flabby and wrinkly and balding too. And don’t give me that ‘George Clooney’ outlier shit either.”

    That’s right, they (we) do. And if some hot young thang can see her way clear to fucking one of them anyway, that’s none of your damned business. As long as it’s consenting adults, it isn’t your job to tell people who makes an appropriate bed partner. (By the way, where does the daughter’s friend fit into this equation? Doesn’t she get to decide who she wants to fuck? Or does the daughter own her? By your standards, the daughter gets to control the choices of both the dad and the friend. Nice.)

    Your whiny sticking your finger down your throat at the very idea comes across as either sour grapes, if you’re a woman who has gotten old and wrinkly and flabby and gross just like the men your age; or immature and narcissistic, if you are still young and hot, in which case you will eventually get your comeuppance when you get old and wrinkly and flabby and gross just like the rest of us.

  32. As someone who did the farting in a similar situation to FART’s, I TOTALLY agree with Dan’s advice. Laughing it off at the time was sorta mean, although the kiss might’ve chilled him out. However, the e-card you sent twisted the knife – NOT good.

  33. One stereotype that I’ve learned over the years is ALMOST ALWAYS correct is that when a man dates a woman significantly younger than himself (his daughter’s age, for example), he’s not looking for a real partner. If he were truly mature enough to want a long term relationship, he wouldn’t be looking among his daughter’s friends.

    I think Dan doesn’t realize that a daughter will justifiably lose all respect for her dad when he does this. And that won’t go away when the sexual relationship does.

  34. I think “dumping” is too strong a term for the result of FART’s farting, text message or not. They went on 3 dates and were clearly not exclusive. The guy declined a 4th date. You can stop seeing someone at that point for any reason; FART wasn’t owed more consideration than a direct answer. And having someone fart in your face and laugh about it is more than enough reason to decide that other opportunities are more worthwhile.

  35. I just want to comment on the fact that FDAKB’s letter…and the fact that his girlfriend has been completely let off the hook for the fact that she fucked up her friendship.
    His daughter should be able to get over because, well: if she was your friend she wouldn’t have kept it a secret for so long, she would’ve at least discussed it with you.

    My dad is my dad, and regardless of who he dates I’m gonna care about him. Honestly, this isn’t unforgivable. You guys are being a bit whiny about that aspect.
    However, I expect better from my friends, and from myself. I’m in my twenties, and I find older guys hot. (But not usually the one’s with kids). But if I start getting the inkling that something is gonna go down with me and MY FRIEND’S DAD, I’m gonna say to her “Err, this is super awkward, but I wanna date your dad, don’t hate me.” And she should keep her trap shut about anything the daughter told/tells her.

    I wanted to rant more but I’ve gotta get going.

  36. more on 121: “Parents and kids owe it to each other to PRETEND that they don’t have sex. Why? Cos thinking about your parent (or child) having sex means that you’re picturing your parent (or child) naked, which is gross and uncomfortable and sorta incestuous.”

    Anybody who can’t deal rationally and calmly with the idea that their parents have sex doesn’t deserve to exist, let alone deserve to be called an adult. If it weren’t for their sex life, you wouldn’t be here. By wanting to deny that, you are invalidating the very force that brought you into this world.

    You are a BY-PRODUCT of your parents’ sex life. Yes, a by-product. Out of the couple of thousand times that they got busy over the course of a fifty year marriage, only a handful, if any, were for the express purpose of making you. If you were an accident, that number drops to zero. It’s not all about you. Get over it.

    I actually agree with your assessment about the whole “people think it feels incestuous” thing. I just think it is weak thinking. What parents and children owe each other is to not dwell morbidly on the fact that the other has sex. That’s a rather different proposition than pretending it doesn’t happen, let alone expecting them to carefully arrange the illusion that it doesn’t happen in order to protect your wilting sensibilities. They are human beings, just like you, and deserve a sex life, just like you. Trying to pretend otherwise is to deny them what is their right. You just need to get better at strategically minding your own business.

  38. I NEVER understand why people tell the people they have cheated on that they have cheated! It is absolutely inexplicable unless you A) want to get rid of your mate by forcing them to dump you (VERY cruel) or B) accidently knocked up the other person (obviously impossible in this case!) Well, also C) your mate will get off on it…a rare scenario.

  39. I think it’s interesting that people are piling on the “omg old men dating 20s women are so skeevy,” but no critique for the younger women? But pedophilia? Nope. Skeevy? Maybe, so avoid these guys. Why the big deal? I mean it’s a consensual relationship, right? And we’re all grown up enough to know that of course, young women date older men not because the men are hawt. They do it b/c they like the men’s wealth or b/c the women have some kind of daddy fetish. Neither is rare among 20s women, I find. I’m a paunchy middle aged guy, and I don’t date 20s women, but I do notice strong flirting from the 20s female demographic on occasion. I’m so not hawt, and I have no delusions on that score: it’s b/c I’m (relatively) wealthy and Daddy-like.

  40. @139: I actually don’t care for women who marry solely for money (and as much money as they can manage). I have friends who have decided they will ever only marry men who earn more than they do, and it disgusts me. So I’m with you there.

    But I never understood the *broad* criticism of women who attribute their attraction to success or power. Sure, if they don’t get why success or power is meaningful, and just love the idea of impressing other people with a monied boyfriend, then yeah, good job, you’re kind of shallow.

    But unlike looks, which you’re just born with and tasked basically with not fucking them up, success indicates something about your personality — that you have goals, you know how to accomplish them, and you can manage a career so it continues fulfilling you.

    Anyway. I like older men because many of them are confident, articulate, caring, and have made their lives into something they consider meaningful — which I define as success. I can definitely assure you that a lot of them have not been conventionally hot. Really. I swear. Or necessarily rich — many have been academic types.

    If you’re a man in his 40s with wealth and success but repulsive in behaviour, I wouldn’t give you a second look.

    Then again, I may be turning 25 this year, but I’m not the stereotypical hawt young thing who can ever attract a man just with her body, so maybe my opinion doesn’t count.

  41. @139: Oh, and I’m guessing another reason why the criticism for the younger women hasn’t popped up more (in this particular thread anyway … I hear that accusation all the time) is because some of us are presuming that women in their 20s do all kinds of dumb things and it goes without saying. Maybe the criticism is in fact so obvious that we don’t even need to say it; it’s just “fact.”

    I think that trumps freaking out about skeevy old men.

  42. I’m with everyone who thinks FART’s reaction – humor in the face of an awkward but wholly foreseeable potential consequence of anilingus – was completely appropriate, but the e-card was overboard. I also agree with those who have stated that “dumping” someone in a text in this situation – three dates, non-exclusivity – isn’t a particularly gauche move, as the relationship itself is extremely casual as far as I can see.

    Side Note: I’m surprised by how many people would interpret laughter in this situation as malicious instead of stress-relieving; you people must have had a lot more sex with assholes than considerate partners for that to be the default assumption. 🙁 MY reaction would certainly be laughter, as either the rimmer or rimmee, as the situation is slightly absurd and therefore very funny; FART probably COULD have been more sympathetic, but anyone who is going to freak out at inhaling intestinal gas has no business putting one’s face anywhere near an anus.

    As for FDAKB… dating someone the same age as a child is always gonna come off as kinda creepy/squicky, particularly from the perspective of said child. Dating (or even casually fucking) one’s daughter’s friend is a serious asshole move, unless one has overwhelmingly convincing evidence beforehand that said daughter will not care. It’s an asshole move because what one is saying, in effect, is, “I care more about fucking this specific person than I care about either your relationship with with your friend or our relationship, daughter.” As has been mentioned, FDAKB (and the girlfriend/daughter’s friend) is essentially barring his daughter from discussing anything with her friend that she wouldn’t also discuss with him.

    As for the daughter distancing herself from her (former) friend, this is wholly unsurprising; I’d have a really hard time maintaining a friendship with a friend my age who started fucking one of my parents. If the friend is into fucking people 20-, 30-, 40-odd years older, that’s fine; the issue is that I can’t imagine it would be that difficult to meet a viable much-older sex-partner who ISN’T my parent (particularly an older man, since men are socialized to seek younger sex partners) with whom my friend could have a nice inter-generational relationship, so fucking my parent demonstrates a complete disregard for my feelings, and that makes the friend a shitty friend.

    Also, what does this say about FDAKB’s new girlfriend? Does he really want to be dating someone who would treat his daughter like this? (I realize he’s essentially doing the same thing, but I’m going to assume there are far fewer opportunities for him to fuck someone his daughter’s age than there are opportunities for someone his daughter’s age to fuck someone his age, making his actions more-defensible due to his significantly fewer opportunities.) If she has that little disregard for the feelings of her good friends, how much is she really going to care about his feelings. The more I think about this, the more I think FDAKB and his girlfriend deserve each other, and FDAKB’s daughter is well-rid of them both.

    Finally, I must express how happy it makes me that the response forum attached to each Savage Love is always so active, and relatively flame-war-free – we’ll de-stigmatize discussions of sexuality yet!

  43. I’m with everyone who thinks FART’s reaction – humor in the face of an awkward but wholly foreseeable potential consequence of anilingus – was completely appropriate, but the e-card was overboard. I also agree with those who have stated that “dumping” someone in a text in this situation – three dates, non-exclusivity – isn’t a particularly gauche move, as the relationship itself is extremely casual as far as I can see.

    Side Note: I’m surprised by how many people would interpret laughter in this situation as malicious instead of stress-relieving; you people must have had a lot more sex with assholes than considerate partners for that to be the default assumption. 🙁 MY reaction would certainly be laughter, as either the rimmer or rimmee, as the situation is slightly absurd and therefore very funny; FART probably COULD have been more sympathetic, but anyone who is going to freak out at inhaling intestinal gas has no business putting one’s face anywhere near an anus.

    As for FDAKB… dating someone the same age as a child is always gonna come off as kinda creepy/squicky, particularly from the perspective of said child. Dating (or even casually fucking) one’s daughter’s friend is a serious asshole move, unless one has overwhelmingly convincing evidence beforehand that said daughter will not care. It’s an asshole move because what one is saying, in effect, is, “I care more about fucking this specific person than I care about either your relationship with with your friend or our relationship, daughter.” As has been mentioned, FDAKB (and the girlfriend/daughter’s friend) is essentially barring his daughter from discussing anything with her friend that she wouldn’t also discuss with him.

    As for the daughter distancing herself from her (former) friend, this is wholly unsurprising; I’d have a really hard time maintaining a friendship with a friend my age who started fucking one of my parents. If the friend is into fucking people 20-, 30-, 40-odd years older, that’s fine; the issue is that I can’t imagine it would be that difficult to meet a viable much-older sex-partner who ISN’T my parent (particularly an older man, since men are socialized to seek younger sex partners) with whom my friend could have a nice inter-generational relationship, so fucking my parent demonstrates a complete disregard for my feelings, and that makes the friend a shitty friend.

    Also, what does this say about FDAKB’s new girlfriend? Does he really want to be dating someone who would treat his daughter like this? (I realize he’s essentially doing the same thing, but I’m going to assume there are far fewer opportunities for him to fuck someone his daughter’s age than there are opportunities for someone his daughter’s age to fuck someone his age, making his actions more-defensible due to his significantly fewer opportunities.) If she has that little disregard for the feelings of her good friends, how much is she really going to care about his feelings? The more I think about this, the more I think FDAKB and his girlfriend deserve each other, and FDAKB’s daughter is well-rid of them both.

    Finally, I must express how happy it makes me that the response forum attached to each Savage Love is always so active, and relatively flame-war-free – we’ll de-stigmatize discussions of sexuality yet!

  44. Speaking as a 23 year old, I agree that some older guys can be attractive, sometimes even in real life rather than in Hollywood. Looks aren’t everything though- any flirting or attraction is always going to be undercut by the sheer squickiness of the power imbalance.

    A typical 20-something girl (or even younger, if the guy is really extreme) who has never really worked a full-time job, doesn’t know much about the world versus some middle-aged guy who presumably has a career, owns a house, HAS A DAUGHTER THE SAME AGE? I’m not talking about someone who’s a genius, independently rich, precocious and wise beyond their years here, but your typical situation.

    They will never have a relationship of equals.

    The older and financially powerful guy is always going to be calling the shots, in bed and out of it. A guy who wants to fuck a 20 year old is a guy who wants to be in control, a guy who wants a woman with all the lack of experience and ability to make decisions that a woman his own age would presumably have, a guy who thinks society somehow “owes” him a hot young college girl even though he hasn’t seen college in decades? I would classify him under capital P, for predatory, and possibly D, for deluded.

    The thing about specifically going for your own daughter’s friend is a whole ‘nother barrel of squick.

  45. Any regular SL reader knows that Dan is intensely fart-negative. And now that I’ve used the phrase “fart-negative”, I’ll kill myself. Painfully.

  46. Speaking solely for myself (though I suspect I’m not alone)I refrained from expressing my thoughts about the daughter’s friend/dad’s girlfriend’s shabby behavior simply because it was DAD, not the daughter or the girlfriend who was seeking input. I, personally, found it a bit refreshing that everyone stayed so focused on the question at hand….. but since the topic has been broached, yes, the friend crossed a massive line- 3 lines actually.
    1:You don’t fuck your friend’s parents. You just don’t.
    2:You don’t date anyone who holds a key role in a friend’s life without first discussing it with your friend…. your friend’s shrink, personal trainer,siblings, exes, and housemates are all off limits until and unless your friend gives you the green light.
    3. If you cross the above lines, you cowboy/cowgirl up and tell your friend before anyone else can and you do it in private, on your friend’s turf.

  48. Yeah, I’m sorry, but it’s true. Yes, we can rationally conclude that our parents have sex, that they’re sexual beings and need to have their needs met, but I don’t ever, EVER want to hear or see it. If I do accidentally hear or see it, I will PRETEND it didn’t happen. IE. Never bring it up ever ever ever to that person, and try not to think about it for the rest of my life. Parents and children not wanting to be involved in, and being skeeved out by hearing about each other’s sex lives is a NORMAL HEALTHY thing. Incest is a bad thing for evolution, so it makes sense that NORMAL HEALTHY people don’t want anything to do with their parents or children’s sex lives.

    Sure, the daughter doesn’t have the right to tell her dad or her friend that they absolutely cannot see each other, but she absolutely has the right to cut off the friendship and be pissed.

    Also, I have nothing against old wrinkly people. That’s cool, we all get there. I just have a problem with someone who believes that old men are naturally hotter than old women. It ain’t the old man that’s hot, it’s the money.

  50. @77: That sounds an awful lot like female ejaculation, not peeing. Female ejaculate is often hard to distinguish from urine and it’s involuntary and occurs during orgasm. Plus, I believe it’s close to physically impossible to urinate during orgasm. Your girlfriend is one of the lucky few who can ejaculate!

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