I lost my virginity last night.
I’m a straight male in my early 30s, so it was about time. It wasn’t awkward, and we had a good time. However, I didn’t climax, the result of years of death-grip masturbation. (Thanks for the warning, Dan, I’m sorry I didn’t heed it.) She took it personally but seemed satisfied when I said it was only nerves.
I am left this morning with confusion and trepidation about my relationship with my new girlfriend. I suppose this is normal, but I don’t see last night as a “bonding moment,” and I am afraid that is a bad sign. I also find myself being extra critical of my partner’s performance, which, as a virgin, I am not in a good position to judge. She has never been a particularly good kisser and her blowjob technique was less than spectacular. Although it was a pleasant experience, I feel like it lacked passion or a spark.
I feel like an asshole for even having these thoughts. Is there something wrong with me and/or am I an ass-hole?
One Potential Asshole
P.S. I have attached photos in hopes that you will respond.
There could be something wrong with you, OPA, and you could be an asshole. I can’t rule either possibility out after quickly skimming one e-mail and thoroughly examining three nude photographs.
Just because you’re a virgin—or were a virgin—doesn’t mean you’re going to automatically click with the first woman who volunteered to put your dick in her mouth. However much you like this girl, OPA, you still might not be sexually and/or chemically compatible.
But sex is a skill that takes time and practice to acquire. It may take a little time and some experimentation for you to discover what works for you. And if you give her some time, you may find that she works for you.
If she didn’t know you were a virgin, OPA, tell her. And tell her that it wasn’t nerves that prevented you from getting off, but the unfamiliarity of the sensations you were experiencing and, perhaps, a masturbatory style that desensitized your dick. Tell her it might take you a little while to get there, but with her help and patience—and mouth and pussy—you’re sure you can get there. And then try to relax, experiment, and enjoy.
And no more death grip—period. When you masturbate, use your nondominant hand, a lighter grip, and perhaps a Fleshlight.
I’m herpes-free, but I found out today that my roommate has contracted it. He has a sore but won’t see a doctor about it because he says he’s embarrassed. We share the same bathroom, so I knew I would have to be diligent about that. But now I am freaking out: Not long after he shared this information, my 7-month-old puppy runs into his room and proceeds to cover my roommate’s face in kisses. I’ve called the vet and my medical provider, and while they both agree that my pup cannot contract the STD, they cannot rule out the pup passing the infection on to me. Please advise. I would like to know how to best handle this situation.
Scared To Death
Wouldn’t it be great if being paranoid about contracting herpes was the only way to contract herpes?
Look, STD, lots of people self-diagnose themselves with herpes when all they have is an innocuous little cut or sore near their mouth or genitals. People who are too embarrassed/ridiculous to go see their doctors are highly likely to arrive at a herpes misdiagnosis. So calm the fuck down.
Even if your roommate does have herpes, STD, you’re not going to get it from sharing a toilet—unless you and the roommate have invented a novel new way of taking a dump. And you’re not going to get it from your damn dog. For his own sake, your roommate shouldn’t allow your dog to lick his open sores (who does he think he is? Job?), herpes-related or not, and if you’re really freaking out about your promiscuously affectionate new dog, well, you can make up your mind to refrain from kissing any animal that drinks out of toilets, licks its own ass, and laps up vomit.
I have a new girlfriend. She likes me to eat her cream pie after we have sex. She does get off again and squirts most of the time when I do it. No one has ever asked me to do this before her. Is she crazy? Or am I for doing it?
Not A Cream Pie Lover Yet
Why does someone have to be crazy? A cream pie isn’t my preferred post-orgasm snack—I much prefer a Creamsicle—but if it gets her off, and if doing this for her doesn’t leave you curled up on the bathroom floor in the fetal position, then you’re not crazy and neither is she. She’s kinky, you’re GGG, and you’re both enjoying some kick-ass, boundary-
pushing sex. Enjoy.
I’m a 28-year-old straight guy. I’m also five feet six and 124 pounds. I know, I know—I’m hardly microscopic. But I always feel like I’m a lost kid when I’m at a bar or club, with people my age or younger towering over me. So that, right away, is a confidence killer when trying to meet women. But here’s the real kicker: I like tall women. In fact, I prefer somewhat butch women—Hilary Swank in Boys Don’t Cry, Geena Davis in A League of Their Own—and this leads to the ancillary problem that many of the women I’m attracted to are lesbians and thus are not interested in me. But even the tall, butchy straight/bi girls tend to go for guys who are taller than them. Most women I talk to about why they fall for tall guys have a common theme: They are looking for someone who makes them feel secure.
That’s what I want! Is it so damn wrong to want a woman to be protective of ME? I want to be held by a strong pair of lady arms! No, I’m not into super-muscle women, nor am I into hardcore dom/sub stuff. Why is my vanilla kink such an obstacle? What am I to do?
Below Their League
Most women prefer men who are taller than they are. It’s a sad, unavoidable fact, BTL, one you’ll have to accept (just as I had to accept that most men prefer women), and you’ll have to search harder for the lady/lady arms of your dreams. Not much else you can do about it.
I’ve got some space to kill, so here are a few Savage Love programming notes: My recently announced celebrity crush—Stefon on SNL as portrayed by Bill Hader—is no longer operative. My new celebrity crush is Branden Hayward, the actor who plays the cute-but-dim young husband in those Rhapsody commercials. Sigh.
Ever wanted to be a porn star for a weekend but not for the rest of your life? Ever wanted to win large cash prizes? Go to thestranger
.com/hump to learn more about HUMP!, The Stranger‘s annual amateur porn festival that’s now in its sixth year. Hardcore, softcore, erotica, animation, robots, zombies, virgins, cream pies, lady arms—everyone and everything is welcome at HUMP! The deadline for entry is October 15. Go to the website for contest details, release forms, and dates.
And finally: Khia’s new album? My goodness.
I’m a bi woman whose current (male) lover is 5’4″, same height as me, and he is not only the best lover I’ve ever had, but also confident, interesting, funny, smart, loving and considerate. I wouldn’t trade him for any 6′ bore of either sex! I just love him for who he is. And in bed, we “fit” amazingly well.
Right on advice as usual, Dan! Loved your response to OPA.
I had what I thought was a herpes outbreak, even though my bf and I had been tested before and were negative, and went to my gyno who confirmed it was herpes, and then ordered some lab tests. I had the telltale skin sensations before it broke out, and it was really painful. She took a swab sample and blood tests (IgM and IgG) and the results showed it wasn’t herpes, but a shingles outbreak. It’s important to get to the doctor so you can get diagnosed accurately, a lot of things can look like herpes.
Wasn’t able to read every single comment, but am puzzled that nobody seemed to mention OPA sending nude photos of himself to Dan.
Yeah, he’s “claiming” that was “to get read”. Uh Huh.
Or maybe there’s a reason beyond masturbation technique for why OPA is a 30 year-old virgin and doesn’t even climax at all during his first sexual encounter.
I realize Dan has to take OPA at LW value, but I’m thinking, perhaps OPA, isn’t really straight? I would ask what his fantasies/porn images were while he masturbated for 18+ years.
BTL: I am your dream woman. For serious. I just hung up a shelf. Using a drill AND a hammer. Also, I am tall-ish.
I’m 5’9″ and dated a guy who was about 5’2″ — no problem when we were alone, but this was in South America (where gender roles were stricter and women my height exceedingly rare), and the stares got so bad he wouldn’t even hold my hand in public — said he felt like a little kid walking with his mom. The incessant teasing of his friends didn’t help either. Women, if you date short guys, make sure their friends aren’t douchebags.
Gloria @ 45 — Jon Stewart is 5’6″? But he projects such height! He had Arcade Fire on a while back and Win Butler just TOWERED over him — thinking that JS was over 6 feet, I thought WB must be a freak of nature.
@67 — no, the earth will not appreciate the making of ANY more babies, even short ones.
Most women prefer men who are taller than they are. It’s a sad, unavoidable fact, BTL, one you’ll have to accept…
Very true. Height is, without question, the single most important physical characteristic in a man to the majority of women. (And then women turn around and condemn men for caring about how much women weigh, even though a person can do something about their weight, whereas a person can’t do anything about their height.)
A good friend on mine who’s gay was visiting from the East Coast a few years ago and I happened to mention this to him. He thought I was full of shit and I had a hard time convincing him otherwise. Then he went back home and ended up asking every woman he knew if height mattered to them. He called me and said “I apologize. You were right. Every woman I talked to except one said she wouldn’t date a man unless he was taller than her. And the one exception said that the man had to be at least as tall as her. Some women said he had to be at least 3-4″ taller.”
I’m a tall, butch, protective, bi woman and I don’t give a shit about height. Short people are the cutest! The only thing that’s a turnoff for me is incessant whining about your real or perceived flaws. My partner is a short guy and he views his height as a positive feature rather than a defect. This is what people mean by ‘have self-confidence.’
I don’t tend to hang around in (straight) bars or clubs. They mostly seem to attract shallow people with rigid gender-based expectations. The demographic rejecting BTL would consider me freakish for similar reasons. BTL should look for butch chicks at other types of venues, such as ones related to traditionally masculine hobbies.
I suspect the taller guy requirement some women have is part sexism, part insecurity, and possibly a bit of size queen-ism. We have that shitty smaller-is-better beauty ideal, and a tall man would make a woman look smaller. There also seems to be a misconception that a man’s height has anything to do with penis size. From what I’ve seen, men’s height is to dick size as women’s height is to boob size. You can’t assume anything.
@108: It’s the suit. (Well, the indignant, sarcastic anger helps too.)
@109: I was already aware of that, so I can’t believe I JUST realized why there tends to be so many more white guy/Asian girl couples rather than white girl/Asian guy couples.
And while I get what you mean about the immutability about height, weight is something that can fluctuate due to all kinds of factors, and pretty much inevitably goes up with time if you don’t fight it, whereas height is fixed (well, until into old, old age) … so if someone hooks up with you regardless of your height, at least they won’t leave you for that reason.
You don’t have to work out three times a week to maintain your height, or worry that one day you’ll wake up two inches shorter and your SO suddenly has a reason to find you unattractive.
Gloria, I’ve little doubt that women wanting taller men is a big reason for the difference you mentioned in white/Asian couples.
As far as weight fluctuating due to all kinds of factors, the two main factors are diet and exercise. If shorter guys knew they could gain height, and therefore become appealing to more women, by eating healthy and getting a lot of exercise, I suspect that many would do that.
I’ve asked a lot of women why a taller man is that important to them. The answer is usually either “he makes me feel more safe and secure” or “he make me feel more feminine”, or both.
There’s nothing wrong with women only wanting to date taller men. Just like there’s nothing wrong with a man only wanting to date Asian women or a woman only wanting to date black men. We all have our preferences. I just get tired of women criticizing men for wanting women who aren’t overweight while giving a pass to all their sisters who want men who are tall.
Too all the tall/butchy women, don’t doubt yourself for a second! It makes me sad to see so many girls here sayin’ guys won’t give them the time of day. I’ve spent my whole life crushing on all sorts of tall, strong, short haired gals. I’m pretty tall, so I had the benefit of not dealing with height concerns, but I was out there! And tons of other guys are too! Maybe they just need to speak the fuck up. I never found it particularly harder to talk to a woman like that. After all, that’s what I wanted! So why be intimidated?
To BTL! We are out there… I am a 5’10” tall straight woman…I like shorter men…his face level closer to my cleavage level is a bonus in my books…unfortunately the men in the area prefer tiny women and find me rather intimidating (I have fairly broad shoulders for a girl)so I don’t get asked out much.
I wish you the best of luck! 🙂
113/Fastkarate: Maybe they just need to speak the fuck up.
But most of them won’t. Most would rather lament that men don’t take the initiative with them (a typical example: the post below yours where a woman says “I don’t get asked out much.“) or chastise men for their lack of self-confidence or fear of rejection instead of being confident themselves, overcoming their own fear of rejection, and putting themselves out there.
Actually, I was saying the guys need to get off their asses. Yeah, but fair, takes two people to flirt. I probably would’ve phrased it with way less bitterness, though…
Yes, guys and women need to get off their asses, have confidence, risk rejection and go up and talk to people they’re interested in. Thing is, most guys will do this; most women won’t. More people would connect, I believe, if both sexes made the effort.
@117: Multiple studies and a hell of a lot of anecdotal evidence indicate that for many women, what gets them hotter than anything else is the feeling of being wanted. (That is, by someone whom they find attractive and WANT to want them.)
Taking the initiative short-circuits that, somehow; what you gain in agency, you lose as an object of desire. As a friend once said to me:
“Ask him out? No way! Look, he’s supposed to want me, and I get to decide whether he’s good enough. That’s the way it’s supposed to work.”
Of course that’s a totally narcissistic attitude, but so is much of human behavior, both male and female. It’s kind of like how many people expect their spouses/partners to read their minds when they’re mad or want something. If they actually have to SAY what they want, somehow it doesn’t count, or means that the other person doesn’t truly understand them. “If you really loved me, you’d already KNOW what’s the matter!”
@109:
Women really don’t care that much about height. They don’t care as much as men think, and they don’t care anywhere *near* as much as *women* think!
It’s very common for women to *say* they care about height, because that’s what society says to care about. Your friend, being gay, may not have been aware of the large disparity between what women say they want and what they actually want: many women aren’t even aware of it.
@119
That’s a good point… If you ask a woman (or a man) what they want, they’ll probably just rattle off a description of some idealized Prince (or Princess) Charming. Maybe their own fantasy, maybe what they think their friends/society would envy. In practice, the majority of people are probably flexible and will try anyone they click with.
I find certain combos of features often turn my crank, but none of them are requirements. For example; people with dark hair, light eyes, and freckles leave me in a drooling stupor. However, there’s plenty of people who possess none of those characteristics that also leave me in a drooling stupor. My point being; tallness is just one possible characteristic of many. When a woman says she finds tallness attractive, that doesn’t necessarily mean she requires it.
BlackRose & kinseythree, I appreciate your comments but this is an area where we’ll have to agree to disagree.
I do agree with what kinseythree said, “when a woman says she finds tallness attractive, that doesn’t necessarily mean she requires it” because there are always exceptions.
But I maintain what I wrote above, that height is the most important physical characteristic in a man to the majority of women.
And I don’t believe at all that women say they want a tall (or taller-than-them) man because of what society says. I believe it’s for the two reasons women have told me: a taller man makes them feel more secure and a taller man makes them feel more feminine (or both.)
118, you bring up a good point and, if that’s the main reason, then it shows that, in this particular area, women are much more, as you said, narcissistic than men.
I’m not as convinced as you are, however, that it’s the main reason. I think lack of confidence and fear of rejection are the main reasons. In fact, the subtext of your friend’s comment, “he’s supposed to want me, and I get to decide whether he’s good enough“, is that she wants to do the rejecting (or approving.) She can’t handle being the one who’s vulnerable and might be rejected.
I was on a message board/forum with mostly women about five years ago. We were discussing this issue and most of the women admitted they were not just afraid, but terrified, of initiating something with a man they were interested in and being turned down. A couple of the women said they had done it, been turned down, and were “devastated.” The part that I thought was cool was that a couple other women said they met their husbands that way, by taking the initiative, so they encouraged these “devastated” women, and other women who said they were afraid, to go for it. They were giving the same advice to these women that women give to men: have confidence, don’t take it personally, and it’s not the end of the world if someone turns you down.
@122 But in our culture, men are thought to be way more horny than women. So, if a man proposes sex to a woman and gets turned down, it’s seen as less of a personal rejection than if a woman proposes sex to a man and gets turned down. (The thought that runs through my head is “Wow, I must be pretty skanky if he won’t even have NSA sex with me.”) It’s getting better with practice, but I do think there’s a reason it’s harder for women to do the asking.
Dude the two guys I’ve been most crazy hot for in my life are 6’5″, 250+ lbs and 5’4″, 120lbs. When you box yourself in to a certain “type” you don’t allow deep attraction to develop. Pick a better way than bars to meet people (not potential sex partners, but people) pursue further friendship with those you like, then downselect from those friends to women you feel a spark with and ask them out on dates and see what happens. When you only hit on a certain type of woman, then you may be missing other women you could be attracted to if you bothered to get to know them a little. Besides, if you frequent bars to meet people, you meet drunks. (don’t ask me how I know this)
Roma: you said “Very true. Height is, without question, the single most important physical characteristic in a man to the majority of women.” I’d have to disagree with you on that one.
I think, if you asked 100 women whether they’d prefer to date a short, well-groomed guy or a tall, smelly one, 99 would pick the short guy.
Also, I think you’ll find that fewer women would consider *any* single physical characteristic (other than “basic hygiene”, which is partly behavioral) an absolute deal breaker. I think most women would date an otherwise-perfect guy who was 4’11”, but I don’t know that most men would date an otherwise perfect woman who was 200 lbs.
@119: “It’s very common for women to *say* they care about height, because that’s what society says to care about. Your friend, being gay, may not have been aware of the large disparity between what women say they want and what they actually want: many women aren’t even aware of it.
I hope you are revealing a secret, not expecting that men should already know this about women. Last I checked, human men are categorically incapable of the Vulcan Mind Probe, and all the external messages that they get from society, the media, and the women themselves, contradict this thing that women supposedly feel inside, but so secretly that some of them aren’t even aware of it, and never say out loud.
Melissa, you’re probably right about that. Smell is very important to people. Along with what you said about the 100 women, which I would agree with, if you asked 100 men whether they’d prefer to date an overweight woman who smelled nice or a slender woman who stunk, 99 would probably pick the overweight one.
So, if we want to include how someone smells as a physical characteristic, then let me slightly amend my assertion to: height is the most important visual physical characteristic in a man to the majority of women.
I definitely disagree with you that most women would would date an otherwise-perfect guy who was 4’11” (unless, of course, they were shorter than 4’11”.)
Erica, I’m curious why you assumed we’re talking about men and women asking each other for NSA sex. This is about men and women just asking each other out on a date or taking the initiative and just chatting someone up, showing them you have an interest.
And I don’t think men are just thought to be more horny than women. I think men are more horny than women. More kinky too.
@BTL – Please take all the positive feedback and advice in this column to heart. One thing to consider is, while you look for a tall woman, there is a tall women looking for you. It’s just a matter of right time, right circumstance.
Not trying to find the lady in bars is a good idea. Try dating sites, and be up front about the fact that you’re a “shorter guy” (5’6″ isn’t that short in my book either) searching for a woman over x’x” tall. It’s a particular niche you’re trying to fill and it may not happen immediately, but at least put it out there.
Other resources, don’t know how good they are, but you may find forums or at least fellowship there:
http://amazonlove.org/main.html
http://tallwomendating.net/
Here are testimonials by tall women about how they love “little guys”:
http://www.shortsupport.org/News/0285.ht…
And lastly, here’s a video. It might seem kind of staid, but see if it doesn’t help motivate you. Lord knows it’s more advice than Dan gave you:
http://www.howcast.com/videos/292653-How…
Hang in there!
I used to only date tall guys – 5’10 to 6 feet. The first short guy I dated (5’5) was the best sex I ever had – also the most confident, secure, and thoughtful – and I married him. Short men rock.
@ #7 & #8 …yes there is a sexual orientation called asexuality. Check out http://www.asexuality.org for more information. I’m married to an asexual guy who hid his orientation from me until after we were married and had 2 children. He finds sex a drag, “like work” (his words) and prefers to abstain, doesn’t even masturbate, has no hard-ons, and prefers to live without, much to my dismay. So, he duped me at the outset by trying to suppress that side of himself, which is always a mistake, and eventually, the real him emerged. Society tells people of “other” orientations that they are somehow damaged goods. What he should have done was tell me right away (i’m positive he knew) so that i could have made an informed choice. Little did i know that down the line, we would be having NO sexual relationship. He is not damaged goods; he just prefers to not have sex. But i prefer to have sex, and lots of it.
We are a mismatch, and if only he had been honest with himself and with me all those years ago, i wouldn’t be in this predicament i’m in now. I have no idea what the future holds for us. He’s a friend, we live like roomies, raising our 2 kids, but surely, this isn’t the end of my sex life??? He prefers to not talk about it; he gets upset and defensive if i try to discuss it, so i’ve gone behind his back (once) and had an affair, just to get fucked the way i need it.
People need to be upfront and honest about their sexuality and all their kinks when they start getting intimate with a new partner. It’s the only way to have a long, successful, happy relationship.
So, YES, there is such a thing as asexuality, it is not something you make a choice to be – asexual people are born that way, just the same as gays and lesbians are born that way, just the same as heteros are born that way. Yes, it is a sexual orientation.
@ #128 …i think you are wrong, wrong, wrong about horny, kinky men. I’m not saying men aren’t, but…
Society tells women they shouldn’t be kinky, horny, or love sex. I am here to tell you that i am probably more sexually intense than 3/4 of the guys i’ve ever been with, more erotic, more horny, more sensual, and i love to fuck.
So, there goes your theory.
re: OPA.
I don’t think OPA is providing enough information about what happened (did she know he was a virgin? Was this also his first time receiving/giving head? When he said he didn’t come, did he mean that he lost his erection or that he could stay hard, but couldn’t come?)… and I do think he’s probably. If he didn’t tell his partner or lied about his being a virgin- asshole. If he did- debatable. I was recently in a similar situation- well, on the opposite side of it, anyway.
I dated and unwittingly deflowered a man in his late 20s and he didn’t tell me about his being a virgin (and actively lied about it) until we unsuccessfully had sex twice. Even then, he didn’t volunteer the information, but begrudgingly admitted it after I asked him a series of questions. If I had known he was a virgin, I would have taken the lead more than I did and had different expectations. This guy lost his erection two nights in a row, saying that it had never happened to him before and that he was just nervous because it was our first time together. And yeah, I did take it a little personally. I wasn’t mad, but I was disappointed and felt inadequate and unattractive. He was a selfish lover and I didn’t think that we had any sexual chemistry, which I wouldn’t have thought so much if I knew he’d never done it before. Once I knew he was completely inexperienced, I was very accepting. I liked him and would have been (and was) cool with working on the sex stuff with him. What I wasn’t ok with was his lying to me and dismissing my concerns when I tried to talk about sex stuff with him. The next few times we had sex weren’t great, but there was definite improvement. Things didn’t work out, but that’s not why.
Of course, sometimes people just don’t have the chemistry, but I think it’s worth giving it a little time to try if you like the person a lot. Communication is key though- OPA has got to have that card on the table, think about the situation from his partners perspective, and possibly adjust his own expectations.
Roma:
Yeah, to some women height is very important. I’ve had male friends tell me about how often they’re rejected for not being tall enough (one guy is 6′ and even he has been slighted for not being able to tower over a tall (5’9″ woman!). But not all women care that much–it often really does come down to attitude, and many short men are pretty insecure about their height, which translates into an attitude of uncomfortableness with the woman, which the woman can translate as “he doesn’t find me all that desirable,” which, in agreement with #118, is probably the single most attractive quality about a man: the fact that he obviously desires the woman. Vicious circle, to be sure.
Hygiene and grooming matter so much more than height, quantity of hair, or six-packs alone. Every woman I’ve ever spoken to agrees on this.
Speaking only for myself, assuming the hygiene and grooming are there (please remember to trim and clean your fingernails, guys!), the most attractive qualities in a man are intelligence, passion and conversation skills, and a good sense of humor. I don’t date a man’s hair; I don’t date a measuring stick; I don’t date muscles (not that I don’t appreciate great hair, a toned body and a tall man): I want to date a man who makes me want to see him again. All the physical attributes in the world can’t really hold my interest for long if they exist in a vacuum. I once dated a guy who was much bigger than me–6’3″, incredibly broad-shouldered, arms like tree trunks that made me feel like a fragile little girl being securely taken care of when he held me in them. He also had a head full of hair, a killer smile, and smelled good. But you know what? He couldn’t make conversation to save his life, had limited interests, and he was surly and erratic and judgmental and controlling. One-and-a-half dates was enough for me.
It’s true that one’s biggest sex organ is the brain; it’s also true that one’s most attractive quality is the brain (or how it’s used), too.
@128, I responded about finding NSA sex because that’s what’s on my mind. I’m happily married, and not interested in dating other men, but I am interested in screwing them. I had thought that asking directly would work much of the time, but it seems to freak many men out. For me, the solution is a combination of trying to get further with body language before the “ask,” and trying to learn more about which guys are likelier to say yes to a stranger’s offer (40s and up).
Sorry if I derailed your conversation about dating. But I do think you should consider whether men really want women to make the advances; you might find it flattering, but you might also (subconsciously) find the woman less attractive than if the same woman had flirted with you but waited for you to ask her out.
yeah, EricaP!
@131: Where is your evidence that asexuals are “born that way”? I’m more inclined to think that something fucked them up along the way. And frankly I have no qualms about calling someone with zero sexual impulse fucked-up, just like I’d call someone with zero emotions fucked-up. Not every form of human sexuality merits an identity movement.
@132: The previous commenter wasn’t saying that ALL men are hornier than ALL women. The fact that you personally are hornier than the average man – and there are indeed some super-horny women out there (I’ve dated a few) – doesn’t disprove the idea that women, in general, tend to be less horny, less “raring to go”, more able to take it or leave it. Just because there are some Filipinos who are taller than some Dutchmen doesn’t mean most Filipinos aren’t, on average, shorter.
@135: It may not be an issue of gender norms per se. Unexpected directness is often a sign of boundary issues and/or mental illness, and it’s hard to unlearn that. In other words, the guy is probably asking himself “What’s the catch? Is she crazy, or is she going to knife me and take my wallet, or…?” Of course, fiction and popular culture reinforce that idea too.
132/Bluejean baby, let me explain my “men are more kinky” assertion – one, by the way, shared by Mr. Savage here (“So ladies, be warned: Men are kinkier than women“) and here (“It’s a sad fact that men are more likely to be kinky than women.“).
When I say “men are more kinky” I don’t mean that every single man is kinkier than every single woman. Of course not. I mean the average level of kinkiness is higher among men than it is among women or, as Dan put it, men are more likely to be kinky than women. Are there women who could outkink any guy? Absolutely. Are there men who aren’t kinky at all? Sure. But that doesn’t mean that, overall, women are as kinky as men.
Since we’re also talking about height in this thread, let me use it as an analogy. We can all agree that the average height of men is greater than the average height of women, right? Some women, of course, are very tall and some men are very short. But those exceptions don’t disprove the general rule: men are taller than women (or men are taller, in general/on average, than women.)
Now, you can certainly disagree me and with Dan. You may feel very strongly that the average level of kinkiness is just as high among women as it is among men. But I bet you could take almost any kinky behavior or fantasy and you’d find more men doing it or fantasizing about it. And I would argue that the more perverse it is, the higher the ratio of men to women.
I feel the same thing is true for horniness, or desire. If you could read the minds of 1,000 men and 1,000 women for a year, I’d bet you anything that the men, on average would be thinking about sex a lot more and wanting it a lot more.
Nocutename, I appreciate your comments.
We agree that height is very important to some women. Where we disagree is in just what percentage of women that “some” is. You obviously feel it’s much smaller than I do.
If short men tend to be insecure about their height, don’t you think that probably stems, in large part, from being turned down by women a lot, likely due to their lack of stature? As Urqutha Forka said at #24, “Confidence is something that comes from success. If a man is tall and gets lots of women, he will likely exude confidence because he knows, from successful experience, he can get what he wants. If a man is short and doesn’t get lots of women, how is he supposed to be confident?
Regarding what you said about being in agreement with #118, that the single most attractive quality about a man to a woman is when he obviously desires her. I’m sure that is a very attractive quality to a woman, but it’s attractive (or it has meaning) only if she finds him attractive. A guy can have a burning desire for a woman and if she doesn’t think he’s hot or isn’t interested in him for some other reasons, then that quality is irrelevant. (I desired the last woman I was with. I thought she was wonderful — smart, funny, interesting, attractive — and let her know that. But, for whatever reason, she didn’t feel the same way in return so she broke things off.)
I agree with you that hygiene and grooming are more important than height to some extent. If a 5’8″ woman was choosing between a 6′ tall guy who reeked and dressed like a bum and a 5’6″ guy who was squeaky clean and impeccably groomed (and all their other qualities were roughly equal) then yeah, Mr. Five Six would undoubtedly be picked. But if Senor Six Foot wasn’t that smelly or slovenly compared to the other guy, then he’d probably be selected.
(As a side note, I’ve seen countless personal ads from women where they stress good hygiene and grooming as a must for men..and you just mentioned trimming and cleaning fingernails. Is poor hygiene and grooming, including fingernail care failure, that rampant among men?)
Speaking only for myself, the most attractive qualities in a man are intelligence, passion and conversation skills, and a good sense of humor. I don’t date a man’s hair; I don’t date a measuring stick; I don’t date muscles (not that I don’t appreciate great hair, a toned body and a tall man): I want to date a man who makes me want to see him again. All the physical attributes in the world can’t really hold my interest for long if they exist in a vacuum.
I don’t doubt any of that. Those are the most attractive qualities to me in a woman too (I’d add thoughtfulness.) But he has to be physically/sexually attractive to you in some way, right? Men who have intelligence, passion, conversation skills and a good sense of humor meet women all the time and are told “You’re really great…but…let’s just be friends, okay?” (and, of course, women get told this by men all the time too if the men like them but aren’t attracted to them.)
When I was younger I used to believe that women didn’t care about looks nearly as much as men. And I still believe that women, on average, probably do care somewhat less than men. But what I think now is that the main difference between men and women is that men are more honest or open in admitting that looks matter to them. To me, most women seem unwilling to admit that looks are important to them.
Roma: You are saying that the “most important” physical attribute that women want in a man (aside from grooming and hygeine- which I agree with you and other posters is more important)- is height. I beg to respectfully disagree. It’s physical fitness. I would date a short, or average height *fit, cut-up* guy wayyy before I would date a tall, overweight one. (Or a tall, emaciated, or skinny/flabby one for that matter).
I think most women would agree with me. Ask 100 women if they’d rather date a tall, overweight/out of shape guy, or a short fit, sexy guy and 99 (ok, at least 90) would choose the guy with the abs.
And I don’t mean perfect, just fit. Some abs, nice strong legs, ass etc. 🙂
@137 Yeah, you’re probably right that sometimes I get turned down because the man thinks I’m crazy, rather than skanky. LOL.
135/Erica: I’m happily married, and not interested in dating other men, but I am interested in screwing them. I had thought that asking directly would work much of the time, but it seems to freak many men out.
Sorry to be blunt, but could these men be freaked out because they don’t find you attractive? This is what I was alluding to in a prior post. I think that women have a very hard time showing an interest in men and being rejected so when it happens they need to come up with a face-saving reason (e.g. “he obviously doesn’t like women asking him out.”) It’s similar to a guy asking a woman out and when she turns him down he comes back to his buddies and says “she’s a lesbian.”
Or, maybe they’ve found you attractive but they’re uncomfortable with the fact that you’re married. If a woman I found attractive wanted to fuck me and told me she was married, I wouldn’t jump at the chance. First, because my personal ethics wouldn’t let me participate in cheating (I wouldn’t want another guy fucking my wife if I was married so I’m not going to fuck another guy’s wife…the old Golden Rule.) And second, if she said, “it’s fine, we have an arrangement,” I’d still be uneasy taking her word for it. I wouldn’t want to find out she was lying by having Mr. Enraged Husband discovering she was fucking me and showing up at my door with a gun.
What I’m saying is that (1) if these guys found you attractive and (2) there was some way they could be reassured that your husband wouldn’t come gunning for them, I have a very difficult time imagining why they’d be freaked out.
Sorry if I derailed your conversation about dating. But I do think you should consider whether men really want women to make the advances; you might find it flattering, but you might also (subconsciously) find the woman less attractive than if the same woman had flirted with you but waited for you to ask her out.
Merci, but no apology necessary. This has been an interesting conversation on all fronts.
A woman wrote a dating feature in the Seattle Times about five years ago. Her premise was that men don’t like it when women ask them out and to “support” her premise she quoted about three women in the article and all of the women said something like: “when I ask men out, they get scared.” The writer didn’t talk to any men. Perhaps if she had talked to these men who were “scared” she would have found out they did not find these women attractive. Subsequent to this article I talked to all my male friends, co-workers, and some random guys in clubs. I asked them, “how would you feel if a woman came up to you and started talking you and you could tell she was interested in you?” The typical answer was along the lines of: “It depends. It depends on what she’s like. If she was cute and fun to talk to, I’d be flattered. If wasn’t attracted to her, I’d admire her for coming up to me but I wouldn’t be flattered.”
Now, are there some men who wouldn’t be interested in a woman they found cute and fun to talk to who came up to them? I’m sure there are. Men who are very traditional (“Tarzan hunt, Tarzan not like be hunted!”) would most likely be that way. But I think the majority of men wouldn’t care, or would be very flattered, if a woman they found attractive approached them for a chat. (And women are the same way. Women aren’t thrilled if a guy they find homely or uninteresting comes up and tries to start a conversation with them.)
Roma, women taking the initiative won’t work in most cases, and here’s why. Men tend to want things to progress faster than most women are comfortable with. So if she’s already interested and he hasn’t made a move, 99 percent of the time it’s because he’s not interested. And if he IS interested, she won’t have time to make the first move because he’s already done it. Never in my life was I ever in a situation in which I thought a guy waited too long to ask me out. And if he had waited for me to do the asking, it would have taken much more time. The upside to that is maybe relationships wouldn’t be so rushed if the woman always made the first move. But getting men to be that patient would require major efforts at social engineering.
@140, well I might be the oddball but I’m more attracted to height than physical fitness. Extra weight on a man has never really bothered me. I don’t my being attracted to tall men (over 6 feet) has anything to do with reasons talked about here, wanting to be protected, etc. They just tend to stand out in a crowd more, quite literally. But it wasn’t a deal breaker for me, as there were a couple of short men that I dated before I got married. My husband is 6 feet, 2 inches tall, though.
@EricaP: I can’t speak for other guys, but, as a guy who definitely likes it when women ask me out, (and yes, a woman asking me does make her sexier to me :), I’d be pretty wierded out by your particular situation. That whole “I’m happily married and looking for NSA sex” thing. I wouldn’t think you’re skanky, but, just going from that info, I’d partly be concerned about being unfair to your husband and partly be worried about the possibility of some angry guy showing up on my doorstep with a shotgun one day.
For what it’s worth, a big part of the reason I prefer women to ask me out is that I have Asperger’s Syndrome, which means (among other things) that I’m really bad at reading body language. So a woman’s body language quite literally gives me no clue whether she’s interested in me or not, no matter how obvious she thinks she’s being. I know women can (usually) read my body language, so *tell me what you’re thinking*! LOL
As for why men are willing to ask women out while most women aren’t willing to ask men out, women know that another guy will come to them soon enough, while we know that we’re forfeiting the vast majority of our options if we don’t approach women. (And I’m guessing there are some guys who actually like approaching women. But not me.)
@Diagoras: “Men tend to want things to progress faster than most women are comfortable with.”
That’s certainly true, but as far as simply asking her out goes there’s another consideration: if the guy doesn’t make a move promptly some other guy will. So a guy has a strong incentive to make a move as soon as he thinks he might be interested. If he waits until he’s sure he’s interested, she’s probably not going to be around for him to ask.
@142, my husband was there to reassure that he was into it (in fact, me screwing other guys is as much his fantasy as mine). Young guys weren’t interested — either because the idea wasn’t attractive or because I wasn’t attractive enough. Older guys have been more interested and cool about the idea. And really, by older I’m just talking about guys my age and older, so it’s not surprising that that’s who I can attract, especially since it turns out that the cougar meme was mostly a myth. http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=11…
Also Roma, you are comparing apples to oranges. The article you refer to @142 was talking about women asking men out. Your counter example was about women initiating conversation with men.
Men are generally happy to have women start up a conversation. But ask your friends if they want women to ask them out on a date (or propose a blow job in the bar bathroom 🙂 That’s the part that’s scary, when you’re under pressure to decide quickly whether you’re interested.
142 I think this is like how you say Height is SUPER important to women although many women say it is not. Many men SAY they want assertive confident women to proposition them and then give the “ew no way you’re a slut” vibe when she does (even if she just asks for a date). The idea is there must be something wrong with her if she’s that forward. They like being the decision makers. If a man isn’t asking you out, he doesn’t want to. He can dress it up in “she’d reject me” all he wants but he doesn’t want to (it’s more if she said yes she’d fuck up his loser paradigm).
And please place me in the “hell no to the virgins” crew. I’ve deflowered three and I am very glad I am (what I thought was) too old for that nonsense now. Yuck. I don’t want to have to train someone, I am not a teacher, and I suspect a guy who was that old and hadn’t had sex yet would have WAY too many sex hangups for me to be compatible with him. Oh and for whoever said most women prefer a virgin to a manwhore? No. Sounds like words spoken by a woman who either never orgasms or never slept with a man who couldn’t bring her there. I want a man who has had plenty of experience, a variety of different sexual partners to learn from, and brings plenty to the table. My bedroom is not a place for amateur night.
People tend to date people they are familiar with. I am short so I date tall men. I went through my sexual maturity while living in whitey whiteville so I tend to like white men. I also tend to date guys that look similar to the types of guys I went to high school/college with.
This doesn’t mean everything else is out the window, people just tend to stay in their comfort bubble.
The formulation of whether height is THE most important attribute to a woman is not particularly informative. The question really is whether height is or is not a deal-breaker. Any number of things can individually be a deal-breaker. The relative hierarchy of those things is irrelevant. To the unfortunate possessor of that one characteristic, it feels completely unfair when the person has so much else to offer.
The societal list of deal-breakers seems to be growing over time. Witness the “Undateable” blog/book/show phenomenon. Disgusting.
One reason why men might not like it when women ask them out is that there is a HUGE societal pressure on men to be the initiators. Many women say they want the man to initiate. Men say that part of being manly is being forward and aggressive, which means initiating. Media outlets trumpet this 24/7.
Men who don’t do the initiating are widely seen as emasculated. When a woman initiates, maybe the man who reacts badly thinks the woman sees him this way. This stupid; what they should be seen as is so attractive that women are willing to overcome their own societal messages that women are supposed to hang back and let the man take the lead.