I’m a 21-year-old woman from Canada who sleeps with other women. Two questions for you:
1. My LGBT friends and I disagree about what we girls who sleep with girls exclusively should call ourselves. Everyone else prefers “lesbian” and bitches at me for hating that word. Can’t I call myself gay?
2. I am a really kinky person: I’ve been very sexually active and into BDSM since I was 16. I have a large toy collection and many of the toys are dildos and anal plugs. I like anal a lot, but the thought of vaginal just doesn’t interest me, so I’ve never gone there. I’ve read about how breaking the hymen can hurt and—despite the fact that I enjoy being flogged and scratched—that scares me a little. Should I get over it and go to town or stick with everything else that works for me?
Good Gay Girl
1. You can call yourself whatever you like, GGG, and your friends can call themselves whatever they like. They’re entitled to their opinions, however, along with their preferred labels. Friends should be able to discuss their differing opinions and preferences without bitching and/or being so thin-skinned that a calm discussion about a sensitive subject is mistaken for bitching.
2. “Tearing the hymen doesn’t always hurt and rarely hurts with any severity,” says Debby Herbenick, sex researcher, vulva puppeteer, and coauthor (with Vanessa Schick) of Read My Lips: A Complete Guide to the Vagina and Vulva. “Going slow with a smallish, well-lubricated dildo is a good place to start, or two or three well-lubricated fingers. Doing this while highly aroused sets you up for a better experience.”
But before you explore vaginal penetration, GGG, Herbenick recommends a trip to your nearest female-friendly sex-toy shop.
“If most of your toys have been used in the anus/rectum,” says Herbenick, “it would be wise to get a new vagina toy.”
And if you’re broke?
“Then put a condom over a clean anal toy or clean a nonporous (glass, medical-grade silicone) anal toy before using it in the sensitive vagina,” says Herbenick.
While most women enjoy vaginal penetration, GGG, not all women do. (And most women who enjoy vaginal penetration require additional, focused, and intense stimulation of the clit in order to get off.) If you decide vaginal penetration isn’t for you, that’s also a preference to which you’re entitled.
I was chatting with a guy, and he mentioned that one time this girl accidentally vomited all over him during oral sex. He confessed that this turned him on. I consider myself GGG, but that is not something I’m game for. The thought of puking in a sexual scenario is completely unappealing. Does my refusal to do this revoke my GGG card? Or is this so out of the norm that I can refuse without losing my GGG card?
Pleasing Upchucking = Kinky Extremism?
Let’s revisit my original definition of GGG: “GGG stands for good, giving, and game, which is what we should all strive to be for our sex partners. Think good in bed, giving equal time and equal pleasure, and game for anything—within reason.”
Some kinksters skip past the “within reason” part of the definition when they’re discussing kinks with vanilla partners. They shouldn’t. Extreme bondage or SM, shit and puke, emotionally tricky humiliation play, demanding that your partner have sex with other people because it turns you on (asking your partner to assume all of the physical risks that go along with that, to say nothing of the emotional risks for a partner who isn’t interested in having sex with other people), etc.—all of that falls under the FTF exclusion, or a “fetish too far,” which you’ll find in the fine print on the back of your GGG card, PUKE.
I’m a 20-year-old female college student living with my 23-year-old boyfriend. We’ve been dating for two years, and our sex life has always been awesome. My boyfriend has a high libido, so high that I can’t always get him off when he wants it. He says I don’t want to have sex with him, when we have sex probably four times a week and I’m totally happy to give him head, jerk him off, or take off my clothes for him any other time he asks. Whenever we sit down together, he’s immediately horny and he gets cranky when I have to say no. Is this a ridiculously high libido? I try to be GGG, and he does the same for me, but I hate feeling guilty about not having sex with him constantly. I’ve started just telling him to masturbate to porn, and he does it willingly but usually whines a little first about how I “never” want to have sex. Totally false! My body just can’t take it every day. What do I do?
My Boyfriend Is Incredibly Horny
At two years, your boyfriend is getting vaginal intercourse four times a week, MBIIH, along with handjobs, blowjobs, and you standing there naked whenever he likes? Plus a cheerful okay to watch porn and jerk it whenever he feels the need?
You’re not trying to be GGG, MBIIH, you are GGG.
Your boyfriend doesn’t realize how good he’s got it. He isn’t lacking for sex; what he lacks is perspective. He clearly doesn’t understand or appreciate what it’s like to be on the receiving end of all that dick. Saying something like this might help him understand: “You know I love you, honey, and you know I love having sex with you. But if your hole got fucked every time we had ‘sex,’ you wouldn’t want to have ‘sex’ more than four times a week, either.” (I’m putting “sex” in quotes here because your boyfriend defines sex as “vaginal intercourse.” I do not. Oral, handjobs, and visuals-with-a-partner—all of that counts as sex.)
If that doesn’t do the trick, MBIIH, buy your boyfriend a dildo that’s roughly the same size as his dick. Then tell him he can fuck your hole whenever he wants, for as long as he wants—so long as he fucks his own hole first, while you watch, for at least 20 minutes or so. Then he can fuck yours.
That might help him appreciate how good he’s got it.
Never heard of you until a year ago.
I’m into “ball busting”—getting slapped or kicked in the nuts—but my wife was never willing. I did something stupid and saw an escort, just to get my balls busted (no sex), and my wife found out. She was talking about divorce when she told her best friend what was going on. Her friend told her to read your archives first.
You probably don’t hear this from conservative Christian Republicans in red states very often, Mr. Savage, but my sense of honor requires it of me: Thank you for saving my marriage. This “GGG” concept of yours transformed our marriage—it also led my wife to either discover or open up about her kink—and we are happier than ever. It isn’t lost on me that I have a gay man to thank for keeping us from becoming another sad divorce statistic.
Busted And Loving Life Supremely
You’re welcome, BALLS, and all I ask in return for saving your marriage—besides video—is your support for the full legal recognition of mine. Deal?
@103
Some women enjoy sex.
@101
Just because someone doesn’t have a problem having fun in bed doesn’t mean that they don’t have any problems.
There’s actually a number of bad things that can happen to a person that have nothing to do with sex! Hard to believe, I know.
@105 – I enjoy sex.
When I’m not pressured into it, and a willing participant. Again, I’m not a living sex toy, and I resent it when men feel entitled to my body.
Golly, my wife and I have been together for over 20 years, are nearly 60, and we are probably DOWN to 4 times a week. That really doesn’t seem like much to me.
“Lesbian woman” is, in fact, a redundant phrase.
There are biologically male individuals who identify as lesbians, but they also identify as women. (If they didn’t identify as women, there would be no reason for them to call themselves lesbians.)
They might refer to themselves as “lesbian-identified males,” like Lisa from The L Word, but the term “male” in that expression refers to one’s physical gender, not one’s identity. People who call themselves LIMs still consider themselves to be women, when it comes to who they are deep down.
@27 – don’t scare her even more. You are a LOT more likely to have tears with anal sex than vaginal. And you can let the vaginal ones heal, if they ever happen which is pretty damn unlikely unless you are on some seriously poorly planned adventures (or a douchebag of a guy). But you kinda have to use your ass and it doesn’t just bleed, the pain is astonishing…
@62 – really?
@99 – you can stretch the thing out before you break it (takes a lot of repetition I think, but isn’t that what fingers are for?). If you don’t put anything huge in there, you won’t bleed and it won’t hurt. Depends on how you’re built I guess.
To the lady with the hymen fears – I assume you are afraid of being hurt because you’ve tried to put stuff up there and it hurt. You may have an unusually thick or wide hymen. Next time you go to the gyno, have her scope it out, and see if she can cut it for you. Might be a twinge, maybe she’ll give you some of the good pills for that, and it’ll bleed a bit, but you’ll be able to use the thing for a change and it’s quite fun. Really they should offer this service to everyone as a convenience. Vaginas are lot more robust than an asshole for sure, and it hurts a lot more for most people to be anally penetrated for the first time than vaginally. If you haven’t had anything inside you, even a tampon, at all due to a phobia , start with fingers (fingers should NOT hurt – if they do, ask the gyno), and see how much you can take/want. Unless someone is going at you like a jackhammer, they aren’t going to tear your hymen by accident, assuming you even have one (some women don’t). The thing isn’t like tissue paper. Mine didn’t break until I had a very sizable dick in there (I was wondering what was slowing him down, then, oh right! Well shit, didn’t think I even had one. Didn’t hurt. Bled some but stopped fast.). No big deal. Don’t let your crazy sister, religious mom, or batshit sex ed teacher from middle school mess you up on this. It’s fun to play with. At least give it a try. Don’t be tense, have a couple of orgasms first, relax your muscles (if you have pain it might not be your hymen, it might be vaginismus, totally different issue, wiki it (although I think people who have this are generally not able to do anal), ask a gyno, but a single finger should not cause any problems even if you are super tense), and work your way up. Mostly, like with anal, having something inside you will make you cum harder than just clit alone. And it feels good. Like with anal. If anything, you might be surprised at the lack of sensation compared with anal, but it’s nice to have the option, there’s no prep, it’s a fun thing to play with, can take a lot more hard use, and also don’t listen to the stories – it’s something people put a lot of emotional freight on and enjoy telling horror stories about, like childbirth or having to wait in line at the DMV. It’s unusual to have much pain, if you do, ask a gyno. You obviously do not have to do any of this, but I assume you are asking because you are interested in getting over it. So try it out and have fun!
And use whatever words you want. They are your words. If they insist on introducing you to others as their friend the lesbian, just say “I prefer clitsucker” and see how long it takes your friends to learn. And if they bitch? Well, that’s bitchy. Let them know it.
@94: While I’m similar to you in that I never cut out the sex unless I’m physically ill, I still agree that this poor girl is being treated like a sex toy. Vaginal intercourse four times a week, plus blow jobs, plus hand jobs, plus nakedness for visual stimulation, and then when she tells him that she’s not in the mood or she has something that she actually has to do and then he says “but you NEVER want to have sex!” when they’re doing it at least every other day? I find that unreasonable. Also, if my boyfriend acted like that, I’d start to wonder if he really cares about doing anything with me OTHER than fuck, especially since she described him as “immediately horny” “whenever we sit down together”. I would personally begin to wonder whether he really cared about the other aspects of my being, you know? And again, I say this as a girl with a twice or more a day PIV habit. I would resent a guy who gets horny just from looking at me and then gets bitchy when I don’t want to fuck him every minute of every day. It’s not that I think that desiring sex more than 4 times a week is unreasonable, but I do think it’s unreasonable to bitch about it when she seems to be doing the best she can.
Also, for those of you who don’t think that PIV is all that physically taxing- it’s not for me most of the time, but if you’re a tight girl with a guy with a big dick who likes to fuck hard, every day can be pretty wearing.
@111 plus, five minutes or forty-five of pounding? And balanced by how much pussy-licking (or g-spot play, or whatever her preference is)?
Yes!–#96. I know this sounds silly, but substitute the girlfriend with a cigarette or a crack pipe or a bottle of vodka. It sounds like this guy is using sex–and his brain chemistry–to moderate his feelings/emotions–and when he’s unable to get his fix, he gets mean & resorts to manipulation. (In a more extreme form, this is called ‘sexual rage disorder’) I would suggest this young women stop blaming herself for being inadequate. There may be other indicators that this is more than just a hearty sexual appetite. Like, does his pursuit to ‘get off’ interfere with his job? Is it affecting his finances in any way? Has there been a reduction in his involvement in other outside activities he used to enjoy? It appears to already be affecting his primary relationship in a negative way.
Scrufff @53 – Yep; Thucydides in his history refers a few times to the “Lesbian army”, which when I first read Th. as a freshman in college was cause for some adolescent jollies.
Yes!–#96. I know this sounds silly, but substitute the girlfriend with a cigarette or a crack pipe or a bottle of vodka. It sounds like this guy is using sex–and his brain chemistry–to moderate his feelings/emotions–and when he’s unable to get his fix, he gets mean & resorts to manipulation. (In a more extreme form, this is called ‘sexual rage disorder’) I would suggest this young women stop blaming herself for being inadequate. There may be other indicators that this is more than just a hearty sexual appetite. Like, does his pursuit to ‘get off’ interfere with his job? Is it affecting his finances in any way? Has there been a reduction in his involvement in other outside activities he used to enjoy? It appears to already be affecting his primary relationship in a negative way.
I cannot believe the number of people who are ragging on my recent posts! What’s up?? For those of you pissed about “4 times a week” issues, take some deep breaths, and go get laid, already! You’ll feel better!
@77 mydriasis: I never said that 4 times a week was “running a marathon or anything” either! I’m not personally holding a gun to your head, ordering you to limit yourself to 4 times a week. Whenever and however you want it, go for it.
You can do what you want, and say and think what you’re going to say and think, regardless of my expressed opinion. That’s exactly what I’m doing, along with everyone else.
Peace.
Yes!–#96. I know this sounds silly, but substitute the girlfriend with a cigarette or a crack pipe or a bottle of vodka. It sounds like this guy is using sex–and his brain chemistry–to moderate his feelings/emotions–and when he’s unable to get his fix, he gets mean & resorts to manipulation. (In a more extreme form, this is called ‘sexual rage disorder’) I would suggest this young women stop blaming herself for being inadequate. There may be other indicators that this is more than just a hearty sexual appetite. Like, does his pursuit to ‘get off’ interfere with his job? Is it affecting his finances in any way? Has there been a reduction in his involvement in other outside activities he used to enjoy? It appears to already be affecting his primary relationship in a negative way.
(First time poster–sorry for the multiple posts)
@77 re: post @67: Did you not bother to actually read post @67?
I suggest that you chill out, pour yourself a glass of wine, and re-read what I wrote. “Anyone wanting sex 24/7 is what I find unreasonable”.
I, in this case, means Auntie Grizelda, and does not necessarily apply to you.
While you’re at it, check out post @116, too.
@110: Both 89 and myself at 99 are relating serious pain and long heavy bleeding despite lots of warming up. e.g. Fingering, over a long time period (months), increasing number of fingers, plenty of foreplay before penetration, etc. Because, you know, that was our actual experience. That despite the stretching, the first time with a cock instead of a finger hurt a hell of a lot, and caused me to wear a maxipad for the next day and move carefully. And we want other women with intact hymens to know this is a possible outcome. Despite the new prevalence of ‘if you do some stretching it’ll be no big deal, you won’t even notice!’
MBIIH should not reward her boyfriend for whining. He needs to grow up and learn how to ask for sex nicely. And he also needs to know that enough foreplay can do wonders for turning women on.
@auntie
Yeah I read it, I just took issue with your labeling of unreasonableness. Yes, you said it was ‘what you consider’ but if you’re suprised at the way several people responded to your statements then maybe they came off in a certain way you didn’t intend or realize.
About the marathon thing: it was a joke. You said it’s understandable she would be “pooped” after 4 times a week. That’s the same as “tired” isn’t it? Like as if having sex every couple days is so exhausting she couldn’t manage more.
I just don’t get it, that’s all.
And in regards to 107 it just seems to me that if someone doesn’t want to have sex all the time, then why? Sounds to me like someone who doesn’t enjoy sex. But again, that’s just my opinion.
@111/Erica
“I would resent a guy who gets horny just from looking at me and then gets bitchy when I don’t want to fuck him every minute of every day.”
You would resent a guy who gets horny just from looking at you? Why? And to be fair, no guy is capable of having sex every minute of every day so the scenario isn’t even really possible. The only guys who’ve gotten bitchy because I didn’t want to fuck them were guys that I didn’t want to fuck at all. So I don’t know.
For me I do count PIV as sex and like I said, that other stuff generally doesn’t impress me. I would probably be just as unsatisfied with or without those other things if I wasn’t getting enough PIV. So to answer Erica’s question (I know you weren’t directly asking me but I’m in that boat and I’m curious to see where you’re going with this) When I talk about sex I mean just straight PIV, no pussy licking ever. Ever. Duration’s in between those two.
I’m a tiny-built girl who avoids well-endowed guys for that reason. Even sex with an average size guy can hurt but that’s just part of sex.
People go to the gym and end up sore the next day all the time and they think it’s acceptable. Of course I’m willing to tolerate some pain if it’s for something that’s actually fun.
LOL @ 34!!!
mydriasis @122, that’s not me at 111, it’s alguna_rubia. Personally, I like that my husband gets horny from looking at me doing the laundry, etc.
When you said my question, what do you mean?
@Mydriasis: But how do we know it is fun for her? We don’t know what this 4x a week sex entails for her. Is she just laying there while he pounds away? Does he make any effort to actually get her off? Or does he require her to give pre-penetration head/hand jobs/whatever. Also, we’re forgetting about something big…
What is HER sex-drive?
As you said, everyone is DIFFERENT. Perhaps she doesn’t have as high as a libido as yours? This is neither a bad thing or a good thing. It’s just a matter of DIFFERENCE. If you enjoy having sex a lot, good for you. But if doesn’t enjoy it that often and she is already making an effort to accommodate his higher sex drive, then how can she not be doing enough? For all we know 1x a week may be her preference and she’s just going along with it to please her “man”. And you said it yourself: “Of course I’m willing to tolerate some pain if it’s for something that’s actually fun.” Well, maybe its more hurt and less fun for her.
I understand you’re upset because you enjoy sex more than 4x a week. I get it; no one likes to think that their desires are outright unreasonable. Perhaps a better way to word the phrase would be to say “Requiring PIV sex 4x a week +unlimited stripping/hand jobs/oral when it goes much further than your partner’s sex drive is unreasonable”
If you meant my question @112 – that was trying to express the idea that MBIIH talked a lot about what she does for her boyfriend’s sexual pleasure, but doesn’t even mention what gets her off. I found that weird.
@125 exactly
To MBIIH,
Tell your boyfriend to read this. He has NO idea how good he has it. I am married, love my wife dearly, but only get any kind of action once every 4 weeks or so and this is when things are good. Dry spells could and have gone so far as 8-12 weeks with nothing. No hand jobs, no her naked letting me admire her, no oral, no intercourse!!!! He needs to get down on his knees and thank you profusely every single day…Seriously, you are a gift to this guy, he needs to appreciate it!
I thought I’d relate my own hymen story, to represent a place between the two extremes of “agony and blood” vs. “no big deal at all!”
At age 16, my hymen was still intact (I could actually see it if I bent way over and spread my labia). The thing about hymens, though, is that they have a hole in the middle – and this hole expands to let out menstrual blood. So during the heaviest days of my period, I was still able to use a tampon…but if I tried to use one a bit too early or too late in the cycle, it hurt like a bitch and I had to give up and switch to pads. There’s no way I could’ve busted through there myself; I could tell it would hurt way too much.
And yet, by the time I was 17, my hymen had been broken or stretched; I don’t remember a defining moment of “ARGH! My vagina!” but something must’ve happened because I now had a clear view up my vagina and was able to wear tampons at any time of month if I wanted. Maybe certain angles of pressure on a hymen are painful and other angles break it without any discomfort at all, I don’t know for sure.
Shortly after that, I had sex for the first time. There was pain as he tried to enter, but I think it might have been from my vagina stretching to accommodate him rather than a hymen thing. The pain was nothing like the feeling I used to get when I used to try to put in a tampon a day too late. And then…I dunno if I managed to relax my muscles or my bf changed his angle of approach or what, but he slid all the way in pretty easily.
But weirdly enough there was blood afterward, even though I never felt the kind of sharp pain that I’d associate with tearing. Not a geyser or anything – just a dime-sized spot of red on the toilet paper after my post-sex pee.
And that’s my story.
*bows*
As far as the term “lesbian” goes, I’ve always been puzzled by it because certainly the poet Sappho, who enjoyed the company of her fellow woman, was from the island of Lesbos; but the island is inhabited by men as well as women, and most of them are heterosexual (contrary to both the common use of “lesbian” and certain stereotypes of Greek men…)
Also, re: those who are baffled at the idea of penetration being exhausting for the person being penetrated – it’s probably not that four-times-a-week girl is so sore that she can’t have sex more often – if she’s in good health he’s not jackhammering her for hours each time, she’ll probably have bounced back the next day.
But it’s not abnormal for a woman to be a little sore for a few hours after sex, and, y’know…maybe some days she doesn’t feel like being sore.
If four-times-a-week-girl’s bf has a high sex drive, there’s nothing wrong with that (just like there’s nothing wrong with her wanting it less). It doesn’t make him a bad person. But if he’s that unhappy, he should find a girl who’s more compatible with him in that respect.
However…I’m not so sure his sex drive is the real issue. I get a strong vibe that he’s emotionally abusive and that sex is just the tool he’s using to manipulate and guilt-trip his girlfriend.
I like having sex one or two times a day… but I also like eating and having a roof over my head and sometimes I am just too exhausted to do it even though I want to. However, even tho I like to have a lot of sex, more than 4 times a week, sure, if I say no and you act like a pouty bitch about it that is a sure fire way to make me not want to fuck you ever again as long as I live. I lived with a guy like Mr Hornypants for seven long years and by the end I was so turned off and dead I thought I was asexual, a dyke, or both. I wasn’t, at all, but I was good and tired of being pestered. And it was NEVER enough. We’d fuck for two hours after bedtime and he’d wake me up in the morning wanting more and if I needed to get up and shower and prepare things for my day, he’d get all pissy “wow we had hot sex last night and now you’re back to frigid bitch again, I should have known you weren’t really changing.” Yuck. THAT is what is unreasonable.
@122 mydriasis: Okay. Fair enough.
@124 EricaP: Your husband gets horny looking at you while you’re doing laundry….Wow.
@131: I think you might have nailed the situation of MBIIH.
@132: Sorry. He doesn’t seem like he was nice to you. But in all honesty I really sympathize with him. It’s HARD to be turned down when you really want sex with someone you really care about. It’s even harder to take it gracefully.
@52/56 (EricaP): Those are some truly scary statistics. Looks like 2-3x/week is above average.
As far as determining compatibility, I’m not sure pulling back and looking at how often your partner initiates is a good idea: some people’s sexuality is more responsive and they might initiate less than they’d be responsive or willing to please. I’d suggest looking at masturbation frequency, for one thing: someone who masturbated every day when single is probably likely to have a higher baseline sex drive.
This is definitely something people should talk about before getting married: someone who thinks the frequency “might go down in a few years” may not be someone you should marry, even if you’re happy now.
@74: I can’t speak for the guy in the letter, but as someone who is a “bottomless sex pit,” I wouldn’t want my sex drive decreased, and if it lessened I’d feel like I lost an important part of myself. I don’t see it as torture; I see it as having more capacity and appreciation for pleasure.
I don’t actually think there are any tests or treatments for hypersexuality: it’s just part of the normal spectrum of different sex drives.
@BlackRose, who wrote:
I don’t know if you’re still reading this (I was away for a while, so it took me a while to come back and read your question), but for what it’s worth, here is my answer.
The point is that I have rather strong submissive tendencies, so regardless of the baggage you mention (or, in a sweetly perverse way, because of the baggage you mention), it arouses me to be in situations like that. From my persective, playing such a game is a pleasure: it’s a win-win situation.
Now, for the women in question, this was at first a problem. Many women I slept with had a more ‘sweet’ reaction (you might want to call it ‘typically/socially feminine’) in which they wanted to make me happy, and followed normal behavioral patterns to that effect, including, for instance, lots of kissing. When I mentioned that I did have submissive desires, they were surprised. Often they had heard about such things, but in a context that still made it sound perverse, or evil (a frequent reaction: ‘Oh no, poor darling! You must have had some bad/traumatic experience in childhood that made you have this twisted/perverted vision of love and sex and relationships! But I’ll help you get better! Let’s talk about it!’; or, somewhat less frequently: ‘I don’t like that! It’s horrible! I’m not a sadist! Let’s not even talk about it!’).
It took some effort to explain to them that these were simply sexual games I liked to play — things that made me feel sexy. In order to do that, I started with things that didn’t seem ‘bad’, like the kissing game. I’ve observed that many girls were in such a situation, in which they were playfully ‘bad’, in a somewhat flirty way, with someone. This usually involves getting some guy to do something for them, like carrying their books, just by smiling and asking. (This doesn’t mean they were ‘bad girls’; it felt more like playing to them, and often also to the guy involved.) I tried to evoke such memories, and usually this got them to smile and laugh. Then I said I wanted to play this guy’s role, and the kissing game (‘you have to “earn” a kiss from me!’) is a very easy framework for doing that — it feels like a joke (the first times we did that, I was laughing, she was laughing, and we felt like we’re pretending to be little kids), so that the D/s dynamics feels familiar, joking, ‘cozy’.
After that, the idea of D/s felt a little less perverted or wrong, and it seemed to them I might not be a poor guy with a childhood trauma to work on. From then on other possibilities were open. 🙂
(In all fairness, this didn’t always work: many girls didn’t like the D/s dynamics in any way, so we simply stopped after a while. I haven’t been with that many women who actually enjoyed it; they’re the exception rather than the rule in my experience. But the times when it worked usually started like that.)
@36 – well said. I’d add, too, that he’s making her feel guilty for not doing something that, by the sounds of it, she’d find painful – which is to say, he’s making her feel bad for something she can’t help. Considering that every long-term relationship has its sexual ups and downs, this does not bode well for the future.
My advice, MBIIH? Yell at him. And maybe tell him that every time he uses words like ‘never’ or ‘you don’t want to’, he doesn’t get any sex of any kind for the rest of the day. GGG includes respecting someone’s limits; your limits are generous and fair, and he needs to wake up and stop bullying you.
I was all ready to suggest that MBIIH should negotiate with her boyfriend that she’d try to accommodate his high sex drive if he’d do more to satisfy her. I was going to ask what he did for her in terms of foreplay or anything else she wanted. I was about to note how the letter doesn’t say anything about her pleasure, and I was going to go on about that. Then I reread the letter.
She says that their sex life has always been awesome and that they both try to be GGG for each other. I’m chiding myself for the way I turned the letter around in my mind into one I could understand. The real thing is rather harder to deal with. The sex is great. He is GGG for her. He just wants sex more than she does and is childish about wants/demands. Hmmm. This one is a puzzle.
@136:
Sexually compulsive behavior is often treated with high doses of SSRIs. Up to a certain point, I agree with you that high libido should be regarded as heightened capacity for pleasure rather than a pathology, but virtually every appetite carries within it the seeds of tyranny. Which is to say, if someone is too preoccupied with sex to hold down a job or maintain a social life, or routinely makes extremely risky/costly decisions in the pursuit of sexual pleasure, then there might be a real problem.
For my own part, I don’t think I have a freakishly high sex drive, but there are times when I kind of step back from myself and think “Hey! Close that porn site, get your hands out of your pants, and go do something productive!” or “Hey! Don’t hook up with some stranger you found on Craigslist! You decided last time that you were never going to do that again!” About half of the time my better judgment carries the day, and the other half of the time my libido just barricades itself in the pilot’s cabin and keeps right on flying. And I can live with that balance of power, but I’d be downright terrified if my better judgement always lost out to my libido.
@BlackRose, and others, on the topic of the “unreasonableness” of the boyfriend in question: I tend to agree with Crinoline@38 (and other similar ones after that). It’s not that wanting sex 4x, 10x, or 50x a week is, in and of itself, bad or wrong; it’s (a) that the likelihood of satisfaction decreases as one’s need for sex goes beyond the average level (a simple statistical fact, just like having a rare kink means you have to look longer to find another interested partner), and (b) that this guy, in the way he places his demands, seems to be thinking only about himself and his needs; I don’t see him giving space for his girlfriend to also defend her side in a negotiation.
In other words, I may be wrong — we don’t have the guy’s side on the issue — but from her letter it seems the boyfriend is a little passive-aggressive or manipulative in that he thinks about his own needs and doesn’t seem willing to consider her side — he asks for sex, complains when he doesn’t get it, and doesn’t seem to react to her discomfort in any way, not even by looking for a different girlfriend.
If this is the case, then I think he does, as Dan says, need to reassess his situation and allow his girlfriend to express her discomfort and take it seriously — and then decide what to do. He does seem to be behaving a little like the proverbial spoiled child.
Actually, upon re-reading the letter, the LW does describe her sex life with the boyfriend as “awesome”, and it doesn’t seem that he’s actually forcing or manipulating her — it seems she is the one feeling guilty about not wanting sex as often as he wants, but apparently he isn’t complaining. Hm, it seems I sorta stereotyped the situation when I wrote my last comment.
I suppose I would suggest that she express her feelings to him, and ask his opinion. They can together find some way to make him more satisfied — anything from masturbation to opening the relationship — together and consensually. I remember being in relationships with non-matching libidos — me often being the one who wanted more, but a couple of times also the one who wanted less — and usually it worked to talk about it. There’s always the expectation that “my partner should be the solution of all my sexual desire” and it’s often difficult to get around that; some people simply won’t see unmatched libidos as a problem at all. But if there’s a chance of solution, I think it does go through being sincere and discussing the problem without shame and without throwing guilt on each other (‘it’s all your fault, you want it too much / you never want it!’);
What 111 said. It isn’t whether 4x a week PIV is a lot or a little on any sort of objective scale, if such a thing were possible. It’s that, what with 4x a week PIV, plus blowjobs, plus handjobs, plus dropping her clothes on request so he can wank, Boyfriend has a lot of gall calling that “never.”
She ought to treat him to about three weeks of “This is what ‘never’ REALLY looks like,” to give him some perspective.
Thanks Dan for your response to the girl with the boyfriend of bottomless appetite. Married 18+ years to someone similar, I can relate to @132. Since what I do is never enough, and extra effort just raises the bar (as in, why isn’t it like this ALL the time)and results in fights. Inadequacy is the order of the day. Nice to hear the opposite.
A separate question is whether this is a relationship deal-breaker. This is the only area that my husband and I argue about, so maybe not. On the other hand, sometimes I think, I’m so tired of this fight, maybe one day I’ll just be done. She should think about this, because it won’t change.
@61/auntie grizelda: What Dan said that I objected to was the idea that the guy was lucky to have what he has now, and he shouldn’t complain or want more.
You seem to be saying what I was saying, that they may be incompatible and should try to compromise, but break up if they can’t. That part I agree with: it’s the whole “you can’t do much better” thing that seems fucked up to me. I think 100 was right about Dan not being experienced with vaginas: I wonder how often most people can have anal.
The BFIIH letter reminds me of that scene in Annie Hall. It’s a split screen, we see Alvie and Annie in therapy. Their respective shrinks ask, “How often do you have sex?” They answer at the same time.
Annie: Constantly, like twice a week.
Alvie: Never, like twice a week.
Like many good jokes, it’s based on a stereotype. My point is we’re only seeing one side here. If she resents the pestering she may well exaggerate the number of times he requests sex to justify her resentment. Regardless, there’s clearly some incompatibility here and that will only fester over time.
@139/142 – she does say the sex is “awesome,” but she doesn’t give any specifics that involve her sexual pleasure. She’s only 20; maybe she has nothing to compare to. I would be happier with their sex life if she mentioned that she has three orgasms every time he has one, or that he’s happy to hogtie her every night the way she likes, or that his cock hits her g-spot just right… or anything at all that showed that she has her own agency and pleasure in mind.
@142, plus, he is complaining: “he gets cranky when I have to say no.”
I’d love to know what Mr. Balls’ opinion on hookers was before going to see one, too.
@145 BlackRose: I agree with you there, too, actually. Nobody should have to settle for less than what they desire and /or need. I made the mistake of settling for less, and now I know better. I’ve been free of a bad relationship for 10 years now and on to bigger, better things.
By the way, while I know this is off the topic of MBIIH, Dan has mentioned in his book, Savage Love, that he HAS had vaginal intercourse with women, but that the experience wasn’t enjoyable for him. The reason and situation: a gay man being pressured to have breeder sex so he’ll appear straight. That doesn’t sound like much fun.
I wouldn’t want to be pressured into sleeping with other women to appear as if I’m a lesbian.
@88: BRAVO!!!!!!!
Further re @150: I’m not homophobic, just not a lesbian.
@ 141 anklosaur and @143 avast2006: Well said!
@132 wendykh: Holy shit—you’re describing my ex to the “pouty bitch” teeth!! I fully agree: YUCK! After foolishly trying to make a silk purse out of a pig’s butt, I finally left him after growing tired of being pestered and bullied, too. Drunken, forced upon sex is not good sex. My biggest mistake back then was believing that it couldn’t get any better.
Okay, I’m done.