Savage Love

1. I suggest to every Mormon, Catholic, right-wing-separatist-Episcopalian that we in lieu of donations to said church, leave a signed note that we will resume contributions when they stop using our money to deprive us of our rights and denigrate us.

2. Dan!!!!

   hope i got your attention, I know you’re really busy fighting the good fight, but I wonder if you (or your loyal readers) know where I can find your response to someone who was trying to break up with a significant other suffering from depression. I rememember thinking it was good advice and have a friend that could benefit from reading it, but I don’t know where to find it in the archives. Help!

3. as my addition to sowing the gayness-overt-panic I would recommend a vast relocation of our homosexual brothers and sisters to the rural areas of the deep south. Here surrounded by the muirian folds of the lower Appalachians there are absolutely ‘no’ laws saying who can marry whom, or in some cases what. Of course, there might then be certain neighborly misunderstandings. These can also be rectified by those self same laxity in laws. Whoo. Come, bring yer shotguns.
   Also, as the old song says…love hurts. My recent bout with medicine and genitalia made me realize, as some have said above, that having a good doctor helps. Be brave enough to talk and have someone you’re comfortable with. Frank communication is the bestest.
   love,
   Sasha

4. Tracey S, I think a lot of the late outrage has to do with the fact that people didn’t believe that Prop 8 would pass. There was a somewhat faulty assumption that people in California are all very liberal and very pro-gay rights. Anyone who has ever been to anywhere south of Los Angeles County knows that’s simply not true. Maybe this is just the Massachusetts elitist in me talking (similar measures in the Bay State failed to even make the ballot in recent years), but it seems to me that much of California’s so-called progressive culture, outside the Bay Area, is a kind of hippy liberalism that is vocal on easy issues that either effect them personally or are based on abstractions on which they can project themselves. Some examples are animal welfare and drug policy, which have seen measures pass in this election and in the recent past. When it comes to the tough, contentious issues that really affect people’s lives, however, Californians are no more liberal than any western state. It’s unfortunate, but the effort must now be pressed to convince otherwise liberal voters that gays are not icky, and deserve the basic human rights enjoyed by everybody else.

5. It was so great to see you on the Colbert Report, Dan. ‘California bans gay marriage. Next up, Iowa bans corn.’

   PINTS- get thee to a doctor! and it can also be just a matter of time. When I first lost my virginity, sex didn’t feel good for a good year. It took some time for my body to get used to it and now it’s all good… but I would check with a Dr. first.

6. I’ve read both religious websites and GLBT websites regarding the gay marriage issue. Both sides bring up very important legal issues regarding gay marriage which leads me to only one very simple conclusion: take the gov’t out of marriage. Period. Gov’ts should only recognize that two consenting adults have set up a household together and require all the legal protections, tax protections, privileges currently given to “marriage.” ALL such partnerships (including those between straight couples) should be called civil unions by the state. This would include my parents’ own 70s justice-of-the-peace wedding. Only religious institutions should be able to qualify something as a “marriage” and there are plenty of such institutions which will honor gay unions (Unitarian Universalists, for example). I know this solution will likely piss off activists on both sides, but that can’t be helped. A little compromise on both sides should be required. If neither side will compromise, then all this turmoil is only going to continue to the detriment of our country.

7. Nate Silver is the Dan Savage of political statistics.
   I was all ready to blame the conservative, Obama voting blacks, latinos and asians (e.g. my older relatives) for passing 8.
   Thankfully I was wrong. We just need to wait out the clock.

   http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/11/p…

8. DAN stop fucking perpetuating racism amoungst blacks and gays by insinuating that we were the reason prop hate didn’t pass. check the facts Asshole (I love you but this shit is wrong and dan savage should be ashamed as well as perez hilton) EXIT POLLS are ALWAYS wrong and now that the numbers are there it wasn’t 60% as previously thought, it was 49% blacks…and of those it was mostly OLDER black people which is no surprise..most OLD ASS people would vote that way-regardless of race.
   One more thing, as a black person we’ve always been told..”well you dont vote, so how do you expect things to change?…with that said, the numbers also show that 7% of register GAYS DID NOT VOTE and 6% of unregistered gays did not bother to vote….so blame yourselves, because that 13% could have put the vote over the top easily. I’m not a hateful human being, but I’ve never encountered so much racism from gays (mostly white) in my life until now and that says alot because I live in Milwaukee, Wisconsin in a very open community to all culture, creed & sexual preference, we even have some local neo-nazis who are quite polite 7 mannerly, we’ve all managed to get along here in are bohemian Artist community(Riverwest or the “East” as we call it, it’s the equal to Greenwich) so it’s not a choice but I HAVE TO communicate with gays on a regular basis, it’s not a novelty in my area. I’m HONESTLY afraid for what the ramifications will be as a result of this “blacklash”.
   Don’t divide us or else you are falling into the same trap that divided all minorities during and after the civil rights movement, pitting blacks vs.hispanics vs.asian etc…..it’s called conqour and divide…dont be sheep be the shepherd.
   If you don’t stop the hate in it’s tracks…thres going to be a bloody fucking mess!!!!
   Much Love,

9. also you make yourself look like an idiot when you get too mad…nothing personal but it looks petty just like when blacks whine…we wind up looking ridiculous because while we’re “raging” others are cool and calm cause they got to you….be mad at the right shit, stop scapegoating..I havn’t heard shit about THE LACK OF GAYS WHO VOTED..PERIOD! Your OWN COMMUNITY has to be responsible for itself at some point, right?…oh I guess not..my bad…
   I already knew how most whites feel about me…now I know how gays really feel about me..this board was an eye opener…because YOU ALL were RACIST FROM THE START LIKE MOST Str8 whites…your anger brought out the way YOU FUCKING FELT THE WHOLE TIME…ANGER DOESN’T Make YOU HATEFUL..it means you were that way all along just now you have reason to bring it to the forefront…So should I stop being nice to gays and hanging out and having their children over for playdates, and start whooping gay peoples asses when I see them? Should I start saying things like you all deserve to be raped, beaten, tied to tracks, called the F word all because a few angry gays choose to get out of line with me?
   NO OF COURSE NOT CAUSE HATE IS NOT IN MY HEART, AND I WOULDN’T SAY THOSE THINGS PRIOR TO YOUR RACIST RANT, NOR SHALL I AFTER….
   Anger Doesn’t Change ME! Neither does hate…
   YOU ALL ARE SHOWING YOUR TRUE COLORS..WHAT AN UGLY RAINBOW IT IS

10. ONE MORE THING…
    there are black gays and hispanic gays..so you are alienating THEM even more with your bullshit racist talk. They are already looked down on by the AA community and NOT supported by WHITE GAYS AT ALL…where the fuck can they run too? You have shown no inclusiveness towards blacks other than whining “we share the same pain too”…GTFOH with that BS! You never cared about blacks to begin with, because you all keep over looking the fact that GAYS COME IN ALL COLORS IDIOTS….So you get to be privledged, white and gay..thumbs up for you….way too show everybody how great of a person you are..NOT!
    You will need Black gays, you will need ALL gays to get accomplished what you wish…too bad you just shitted on every black persons, gay or straight…the black gays will remember all of this bullshit when the dust settles…they WILL REMEMBER because at the end of the day…THEY ARE STILL BLACK

11. It’s a good question. Dan, can you ask Nate Silver or someone similar what percentage of the gay population turned out to vote on 11/4? I suspect it’s high. But was it high enough? Part of the solution (to winning next time) is convincing more people that gay marriage is not a threat to their marriage or civilization. But is part of it also GOTV (Get Out The Vote)??

12. @tobes. the COOTER doctor. immediately!

13. Dan,

    I saw you on Anderson Cooper 360 last night. Thanks a lot buddy. I haven’t felt that good in a week. You really made Tony Perkins look like the homophobic fool he is. You are a wonderful spokesman for gay rights. Keep up the good work.

    Respectfully,

    A gay father of 2

14. I’m a straight male in CA who donated more NO ON 8 than I have to any proposition fight ever. Thank you to Dan for getting me off my ass to do so.

    I’m disappointed by the results and by fellow Christians who think that they must vote based on their religious belief and fail to see this as a civil rights issue for people who have a right believe differently than they do. The separation of Church and State is in the Constitution for a reason and it protects ALL of us.

    As someone who has been active in progressive politics for several years, I observed (sadly) that the Yes on 8 people had a very energetic “ground game” which eclipsed that of No On 8. In addition to traditional advertising, Yes on 8 peppered the neigborhoods with yard signs and cars with bumper stickers. I ever saw a friggin’ SKY WRITER propaganda-bombing us with “Vote Yes on 8 – Save Traditional Marriage” the day before the election. And on election day I saw Poll Watchers (folks who visit the polling place to check to see who hasn’t voted yet, then take that info back to call them) for No on 8 – well organized candidates do that but rarely initiative backers.

    So Yes on 8 put a lot of energy into their campaign. If the issue is on the ballot again in any form, expect them to try likewise.

    But from a campaign perspective one possible factor they had in their favor this particular election day was the lopsided numbers for Obama over McCain in California. My theory is that California conservatives knew McCain was a lost cause and turned their attention to Prop 8. Virtually all the Obama supporters I knew (including myself), however, were raving paranoia about how we were not going to take a thing for granted after watching what happened in 2000 and 2004. (Whether those elections were actually stolen or not, most Dems think they were and it was a very powerful motivator). So Obama supporters were traveling to other states, making calls to other states, or working for other Democratic candidates to take advantage of opportunities to make other gains. We cared very much about defeating Prop 8 but many of us had our attention elsewhere.

    The good news are the statistics showing that attitudes are shifting. In the long run civil rights should win once again. It’s just a very painful situation in the short term.

    As angry as gay marriage supporters may be, I’d counsel some restraint in stating our position. Yelling at the opposition may help blow off steam but it rarely changes minds. Speak rationally, because rationality is on our side. Most minds, the ones that will eventually prevail, will listen and understand.

15. Kiki – don’t listen to the others. That was a very funny comment!

16. RE: “Because it’s illegal for gays to get married now in Florida—right, Charlie?”

    No, it is illegal for anyone, not just gays, to marry someone of the same sex.

    There is a big difference between making it illegal for gays to marry (that would be discriminatory)and to state that marriage, for everyone, may only happen between a man or a women. I, as a straight female, have just as much of an opportunity to marry a women as someone who identifies as a lesbian.

    Everyone has the same right to get married – to someone of the opposite sex. Whether or not that interests you, well that’s a different story.

17. Another reader/listener/viewer who was delighted to see you on the Colbert report last night, man. You had the right answers and it was a great showing.

    I’m honestly surprised by by the passionate, ongoing demonstrations that continue in the community, not just in Cali but everywhere else. I honestly thought that while pissed, nothing more would come of it, a day or two after the fact. My fellow gays and lesbians have proved my usual cynicism and jaded (lazy) nature wrong.

    It’s my sincere belief that we too will have our day, soon.

18. Fucking fuck the fucking Mormons.

    They MUST have their non-profit status revoked, nationwide. Now.

    Is someone starting a movement to do so? Please?

    OK, I will if I have to.

19. The Mormon religion explained in cartoon fashion:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ervaWt03Z…

20. PINT–I have had similar issues. I went to a physical therapist who specializes in female issues and she helped me to realize that I was unconsciously clenching all my pelvic floor/vaginal muscles 24/7. I had major burning and sex was impossible. Through exercises with her and at home I was able to loosen up and relax those muscles. Now it’s much better. You might want to look into this. It’s different than going to the gynecologist or another doctor and she was able to help me more than any other doctors were. Good luck. Dan is right though….try to still have sexual fun that feels good so you both don’t get upset about it–then you just clench more if that is a problem you have. 🙂

21. Dan, just watched you debate the conservative bigot on CNN.

    One pointer:

    It is too bad prop 8 and other similar ballot measures in other states
    passed. I think more likely than not if the no-on-prop-8 movement
    framed it differently they could have defeated it.

    I see two arguments used by Dan, the Old Fashioned Bigotry one and the
    American Liberty one. These frames are overlap in my mind in only one
    other case, which is African American marriage. But simply having the
    two frames present in an argument does not make up for a lack of a strong
    emotional argument.

    What is obvious to me is that Dan, like other’s opposing proposition 8
    let the proponents frame it first and only responded in retaliatory
    arguments. I have previously noted the “We are not the enemy” campaign
    could be slightly counterproductive by pairing the image of gays with the word “enemy,” and suggested something along the lines of “We are people too,” or “Don’t invalidate our love.”

    One thing that really needs to be pushed I think is, by making same-
    gender marriage illegal, we are effectively saying that gay people
    are not as good as straight people, and this will leave gay children confused. Hitching the gay marriage argument
    to education of children is something the religious right-wing has pre-
    empted with the conspiracy theory of “indoctrination,” and the gay rights community have shied away from for fear of allowing the right-wing to make their argument. If they had a counter argument that successfully framed it their way, they would not need to fear talking about marriage in relation to children.

    A strong counter argument would be that the reverse of social conservative’s positoin is actually true.
    The social conservatives stresses the need to instill disgust for gays
    in their children (by focusing on sodomy), who otherwise might not think twice about it. We need to be teaching kids acceptance, not bigotry.

    I believe that this would be a very smart argument to make, because
    then the church would have to argue that it is okay for them to tell
    their kids that being gay is wrong. It changes the argument in a very
    significant way. It pushes the argument away from the Disney-esque
    mythological deification of marriage to respect for diversity. If the
    gay rights movement had made this point I believe they could have
    defeated prop 8.

    Arguing that taking away one minorities rights is much like taking away another is a good argument, but
    could be made more powerful if you pointed out that social
    conservatives are not only taking away rights but also sending the
    wrong message about tolerance. And if you still want to draw the parallel to racial marriages, point out that past (and many present) social conservatives indoctrinated their children to believe very bad things about black people.

    And if you still feel the need to criticize the Mormon church, do so by mentioning other old fashioned bigoted beliefs as to reinforce the bigotry or intolerance frame.

22. Dear PINTS, You may have what is called an “antoverted” or “retroverted” uterus, causing your cervix to be at a weird angle and thus the pain with intercourse. Get checked with your doc. Please ignore that Kiki is a fucking asshole.

23. Damn, man…you made Colbert cover his face with his CARDS.

    Kudos!

24. Hey Dan. Just wanted to say how great you were in the interview on CNN with Anderson Cooper. Tony Perkins could not be slimier… you argued point by point everything he had to say and I just kept cheering, “Go! Go! Go Dan Savage!” You rock.

25. The Law of Nature creates a male and a female in order to reproduce and ensure the continuation of the species. So my question is, is homosexuality a choice or a mistake in the developemental stage of the fetus. If it is a choice, than with any choice in life, you have both supporters and critics. You can choose to have rainbow colored hair but you can’t expect a law to be enacted to protect you when you can’t get a professional type job becasue you choose an alternative style. If it is a choice, this same principle applies to homosexuality. You can choose that lifestyle but don’t expect laws to change just because you CHOOSE an alternative lifestyle. That’s your choice and you have live with the consequences.

    African-American’s were discriminated against because they were BORN with a different skin color than whites. Being born a different color is totally out of people control. The difference between the fight for Gay Marriage and the fight for equal treatment for African American’s is: CHOICE

    If your argument is that people are born Gay, than that is a totally different argument. As I said before, people are born different sexes in order reproduce and ensure survival of the species. I would argue that in homosexuals, in the developemental stage of the fetus, an error occured resulting in a malfunction of the brain, otherwise the offspring would grow up with the natural attraction to the opposite sex in order to reproduce. Therefore, the fight for Gay marriage would being that homosexuality is a developmental disorder and could be covered under existing laws that cover the disability acts. Stemcell, once passed, could then be used to help find a cure for this developmental disorder.

26. The Law of Nature creates a male and a female in order to reproduce and ensure the continuation of the species. So my question is, is homosexuality a choice or a mistake in the developemental stage of the fetus. If it is a choice, than with any choice in life, you have both supporters and critics. You can choose to have rainbow colored hair but you can’t expect a law to be enacted to protect you when you can’t get a professional type job becasue you choose an alternative style. If it is a choice, this same principle applies to homosexuality. You can choose that lifestyle but don’t expect laws to change just because you CHOOSE an alternative lifestyle. That’s your choice and you have live with the consequences.

    African-American’s were discriminated against because they were BORN with a different skin color than whites. Being born a different color is totally out of people control. The difference between the fight for Gay Marriage and the fight for equal treatment for African American’s is: CHOICE

    If your argument is that people are born Gay, than that is a totally different argument. As I said before, people are born different sexes in order reproduce and ensure survival of the species. I would argue that in homosexuals, in the developemental stage of the fetus, an error occured resulting in a malfunction of the brain, otherwise the offspring would grow up with the natural attraction to the opposite sex in order to reproduce. Therefore, the fight for Gay marriage would being that homosexuality is a developmental disorder and could be covered under existing laws that cover the disability acts. Stemcell, once passed, could then be used to help find a cure for this developmental disorder.

27. PINTS, take it from a lesbian who didn’t find the right sex partner until age 30…It may not be a medical problem at all. For me, penetration always hurt until I found my current partner, who very patiently used her fingers to er… break me in. And please make sure he knows all about your clit, so he can get you good and open first. Perhaps his penis size is something you need to WORK UP TO. Make sure you do plenty of finger play before even letting that hot dog into you.

28. The Law of Nature creates a male and a female in order to reproduce and ensure the continuation of the species. So my question is, is homosexuality a choice or a mistake in the developemental stage of the fetus. If it is a choice, than with any choice in life, you have both supporters and critics. You can choose to have rainbow colored hair but you can’t expect a law to be enacted to protect you when you can’t get a professional type job becasue you choose an alternative style. If it is a choice, this same principle applies to homosexuality. You can choose that lifestyle but don’t expect laws to change just because you CHOOSE an alternative lifestyle. That’s your choice and you have live with the consequences.

    African-American’s were discriminated against because they were BORN with a different skin color than whites. Being born a different color is totally out of people control. The difference between the fight for Gay Marriage and the fight for equal treatment for African American’s is: CHOICE

    If your argument is that people are born Gay, than that is a totally different argument. As I said before, people are born different sexes in order reproduce and ensure survival of the species. I would argue that in homosexuals, in the developemental stage of the fetus, an error occured resulting in a malfunction of the brain, otherwise the offspring would grow up with the natural attraction to the opposite sex in order to reproduce. Therefore, the fight for Gay marriage would being that homosexuality is a developmental disorder and could be covered under existing laws that cover the disability acts. Stemcell, once passed, could then be used to help find a cure for this developmental disorder.

29. Dan! You only donated $100 to No on 8?? After urging your readers to donate and setting up a contest to reward those who donated the most?? Money where your mouth is, please!!

    All the donors to both the Yes on 8 and No on 8 campaigns are tabulated in a searchable database on the latimes website. Dan is the only “Daniel Savage” in Washington.

30. Dear Dan,

    I just saw the clip of you on AC360 vs Tony Perkins. You were great. The big thing that put you ahead of almost any other progressive voice was your fearlessness in your cause. Most kind-hearted people are afraid to reply as readily as their attacker does, out of some mis-placed fear that they are required to be humbler and to tolerate unfair abuse. Fortunately, you seem quite clear on the concept that it is not tolerant to tolerate intolerance. So you didn’t just sit there when Perkins lied and interrupted you. Instead, you put forward the truth whenever you could. It was so refreshing to see fairness have an equal chance vs intolerance for once. Please try to make similar appearances in the future. You really energize good people, not just on human rights issues, but on all good causes. Thanks for your leadership for a civilized society.
    Sincerely,
    Bruce in Arizona

31. You probably already saw this, Dan

    http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2008/11/13…

32. I don’t think it’s fair for homosexuals to co-opt the context of the civil rights movement by comparing struggles. The very root of the insidiousness racial prejudice wrought was the condemnation of a person on pure exterior features, an indictment before birth- remarked Malcolm X. Though i can sympathize with homosexuals, it’s hard to swallow that the community has it so terrible right now. I don’t buy that Proposition 8 represents the backwardness of America geez give it a break.

    But seriously, when Ellen DeGeneres is on her soapbox on her nationally syndicated talkshow, I don’t really buy it when she tells me what a raw deal she has because she’s gay.

    It is no great injustice when people voice their valid personal values through a democratic system. you want change? Constructive dialogue with the American people might work instead of radical protests and insistent imposition of your lifestyle over mine. Protests are fine too. but this radical reaction to a democratic process over an issue that doesn’t really bear similarities to the true injustices of the past is utterly disingenuous at best.

    But yea- you’re probably a lot smarter than me. More urbane and witty I’m sure. Your views on sexuality, historicity, and traditional marriage are more sophisticated and rooted in numbing academic scholarship- I’m quite sure. I surmise you’re one of those who also view orthodox biblical Christianity as a patriarchal system of subjugation instead of an enlightened faith that’s uplifted billions. (It has by the way buddy, sorry to break the news)

    I’m sure you presume to have reached new peaks of enlightenment and wisdom above all those who disagree with your views on homosexual identity- reducing anyone who’s reality does not comport to yours to depths of bigotry.

    I don’t know, I could be just stereotyping.

    Yet.. what do we have in the end. 52-48. The people are wise. They speak their choice too.

33. Gays need to get serious once and for all and boycott all anti-gay bigots.Stop always shopping and remodeling and buying CDs and clothes and appliances.Each and every time you do this you are keeping gay-haters in business and employed.Stop giving money to those who hate you!It’s quick and easy!

34. Dear PINT

    My wife had the same problem (she wasn’t a virgin but hadn’t had sex for a long time). Gradually it got better. If we go for long periods of time without intercourse (3 weeks) it can be sore for her again. She has no medical problems, she’s just tight. So just keep at it

35. I’m a young black woman who has always been supportive of/worked with the gay community. If I lived in California I would’ve voted against prop 8 in a heartbeat. I would’ve joined in the rallies in a heartbeat. But I’m so appalled by the blind rage and the totally random, ugly vitriol against every African American who apparently walked the earth (an anti-prop 8 poster on the LA Times website actually suggested that blacks be run over.Seriously?), that I have to say that the spirit of cooperation with gay folks personally ends for me–and probably for a lot of other young people of color who would never have supported prop 8 to begin with. That’s the irony–people of faith who did vote for it aren’t apologetic about it. Their feelings aren’t hurt because gay folks are mad at them. But younger, more liberal people of color like me who would support gay marriage, but are being treated badly nonetheless, are really getting incensed by the atmosphere of the blogs and the rallies. Seriously.

    I have to wonder when the gay community, which contains people of all races, suddenly became this monolothic white community. Because I certainly don’t see gays of color included in this conversation.

    I also have to wonder at how easy it was to isolate that 70 percent figure, when the poll also suggests several other groups voted upwards of 60 percent for prop 8, including older Americans and Christians. The support for prop 8 wasn’t driven by race. It was driven by religion. My theory? Deep down, people are so tired of feeling guilty about the racism that blacks in this country faced that they’re secretly thrilled to see this group called on homophobia, even if that calling out ignores the homophobia of every other group.

36. PINTS — Definitely follow Dan’s advice and see a doctor. Also, if sex hurts despite using lube and going nice and slow, your husband’s penis may be bumping your cervix. That’s happened to me before with some longer guys, and it’s excruciating. Maybe you or he could wrap a hand around the base of his penis so he doesn’t go so far inside you. Also, he could try thrusting less deeply.

37. I know it’s hard, but I don’t think gay people should be too upset about Prop 8. A lot of old conservative people voted, and they’re going to die off. I really do believe the time will come.

    Secondly about the girl having uncomfortable sex–soooo many women go through this, and oral sex doesn’t help. Check out this month’s issue of Glamour (Nicole Kidman cover)–there is a huge feature on it. And yes, go to the doctor right away!!!

38. Hi Dan. I watched your debate with Tony Perkins on Anderson Cooper. It was fantastic. I am a senior at Arizona State University, majoring in Graphic Design, and I have a senior show coming up in May. We are required to pick a social issue to focus on, and I have chosen gay marriage. I would love any input or knowledge that you are willing to give me as I begin this journey! This show will be open for 2 weeks in Phoenix, Arizona, with many faculty, alumni, parents, and other visitors. I want to make a statement.

    Thanks Dan. Hope to hear from you soon.

39. >>I don’t think it’s fair for homosexuals to co-opt the context of the civil rights movement by comparing struggles. The very root of the insidiousness racial prejudice wrought was the condemnation of a person on pure exterior features, an indictment before birth- remarked Malcolm X. Though i can sympathize with homosexuals, it’s hard to swallow that the community has it so terrible right now. I don’t buy that Proposition 8 represents the backwardness of America geez give it a break.

    Oh God; a person who is sympathetic to our cause, but is mad that the gayz are upset. We should just sit down and wait, wait for the day when we are finally understood by backwards thinking. Actually, I have a problem with people somehow dismissing the gay rights movement and feeling the need to to co-opt the black civil rights movement as if the gay rights movement doesn’t have reason on its own. You somehow dismiss the claim that a person’s sexual orientation is a choice, which shows how you really feel in some attempt to make racism worse than homophobia.

    But as a person, you’re probably under the delusion that thre are those who are both black and gay and actually do have reason to compare the experiences since they live them.

    Uh-Oh! Hope I didn’t blow your world there- because I understand the concern of blacks of white gay people co-opting a movement they don’t give a damn about, but they too have to understand that the gay rights movement is a concern of theirs as well…

    Since there are black Gay people who face both homophobia and racism.

    One does not trump the other and they are different forms of oppression, sometimes that work hand in hand Mr. OMGZ, you enlightened people are so elitist and are the true haters. You throw around Ellen Degenres as if she represents all gay people, showing that to you all gay people are rich white folks who just complain about issues that aren’t even an issue when gay marriage would most likely benefit poor gays and lesbians more than anything else; especially LGB POC who are more likely to have kids.

    Seriously? Bias much? Religion is a double edged sword. It has enlightened us and pushed us into much darkness as well. Are you enough of an adult to admit that?

    People voicing their values over MY life is a big issue. Let’s legislate laws that outlaw churches and tell people, ‘Hey, you know.. we’re not really taking away your religion, we’re just saying we don’t want you out there doing that stuff in public because the majority of us feel that you’re backwards. No offense, SORREE, Dont take it personal, lets be friendz! Cookie?” Obviously, you’re someone who doesn’t have that experience, so do not tell us how to feel.

    America is not a simple democracy, where the majority rules asshat. if thats the case, we don’t even want to think where blacks, indians, mexicans, women, and the fags would *really* be…

40. Dear PINTS,
    You might want to look into Vulvodynia and Vulvar Vestibulitis, which cause extreme pain during intercourse and, well, just living with a vag. I know. I suffer from it as well. Good luck!

41. I started crying when I read this column; in fact, I have cried every time this story has comes up since election day week. Then again, I cried four years ago when my own state (Ohio) past Amendment 1

    My parents are a white catholic couple, they have been married for 35 years as of today. They just moved to Arizona two years ago, so they have had to vote on this Civil rights issues twice.

    When I talked to my extremely conservative/traditional 58 year old father on the phone today, just like I did in our living room four years ago, he said the same thing:

    -It doesn’t matter what I think, God didn’t give me the right to judge anybody. The way they live their lives is between them and Christ. So I voted ‘no.’-

    I love my parents.

42. I find it curious that always politically correct Dan can’t tell it like it is. The success of Prop 8 in California comes down to the very high (70%) vote in its favor by the black community. In other words the group of people who disrespect the institution of marriage the most, as evidenced by the highest rate of out of wed lock births, have absolutely no problem denying that “sanctity” to what they perceive as a white issue. I think that this act by the black community is nothing more than anti-white racism. These bigots need to be exposed for the frauds they are. What group is the first to play the race card – blacks. Who are the first to cry racism – blacks.

43. I am not the activist type, BUT I am offended by how casual you eluded to the n-word describing the “voters of obama and yes on prop 8” in the “FAG” portion of this column. Humph, black folk right? Uh-huh. Now, I’ve read you for years and I love your humor and crazy remarks. Usually, I piggyback those sentiments. But damn. This one hit home for me. I hate the n-word and any reference to it. You cleverly beat around the bush in your response…but we’re no fools. Like we said in junior high school during an argument…”don’t start none and it won’t be none.” Play nice Dan.

44. I think the prop 8 outcome was rigged.
    Churches are very powerful and had it passed would loss their non-profit status. (at least that was my understanding)

    I voted fuck the churches.

45. Squeaky The Guitar Goddess nails it.

46. I want a poster-sized version of that Sow Gay Panic Seeds for my house. Brilliant.

47. Not picking a fight, just curious from Utah…

    You do know that the paper that killed your article isn’t owned by the church, right? Or that not all of us stuck in this barren salty desert are Mormon or conservative? Or that we have our own protests happening in town against the main church and its offices that got national coverage? Or that there’s a movement to boycott all the local businesses who funded Prop 8? Or that there was nothing we could all do to make our votes count in a state we don’t live in?

    Because, I would like to think you were smart enough to research and find out facts before you proclaimed to boycott an entire state. A state that you can’t exactly remove from the union because we’re stuck here! You wanna be pissed at Mormons, fine, be pissed at Mormons. But there are those of us who are free thinking, who are liberal, both gay and straight, who want to turn this god-forsaken wasteland into a more balanced area both politically and in thought.

    And when people like you make proclamations like that for millions to read and for the local religious sheep to take offense to, it makes our goals ten times harder. I’m not saying you set us back a decade, but we didn’t need it, and those of us who were against Prop 8 here sure as hell don’t respect you for it.

    And you wonder why your article got dumped…

48. I too am disappointed that Prop 8 passed here in CA but as larger numbers of people came out to vote for Obama, you inevitably get even more people who want to vote for the first black president but their churches tell them to vote against gay marriage. So while I am happy that Obama won, Im saddened that there are still so many of his supporters who dont understand the damage that the passage of Prop 8 inflicts.

49. I’m in the same boat as PINTS and others who commented. My two cents:

    -Pain during sex is VERY RARELY normal. It’s normal to have pain during your first few times and if he’s rough or going at it awhile, but other than that, it shouldn’t hurt. I heard this bullshit several times before I found a doctor who knew what they were talking about

    -I fully agree that vaginal pain disorders blow the whole abstinence thing to hell. I’m glad I didn’t wait until my wedding night- hell, I only had sex once on my honeymoon for about 1 minute before my husband stopped because he couldn’t stand to look at my pain-contorted face.

    -Been There Done That: give Dan a break. Most gynecologists don’t even know about vaginal pain disorders- he did a better job than some docs I’ve heard about. That being said, I fully agree with your advice.

50. I’m sick about prop 8 and all its anti-gay nonsense. It’s 2008, people. Get with the times already.

    And PINTS, if you’re a small person, don’t believe them when they say it only hurts once. For some of us, it hurts for the first year. But then it’s awesome.

    But be careful about anal as it will turn your boy gay. And apparently we still don’t live in gay friendly times.

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