Who knows what firked! lurks in the hearts of men?

"Do people keep cows as pets?"

Moo!

Speaking as an MD - triggering lactation takes a lot of commitment. We’re talking using the breast pump 20 min every 2-3 hours for a couple weeks - and lactation will stop very quickly when you stop using the breast pump. So yes, it can be done, but it may turn into a not-sexy chore very quickly.

Rather like breast feeding....

@1 & @2: WA-HOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! Congratulations curious2, on scoring this week's FIRDT! (firkt) honors once again---this is a Savage Love record! What is it now, at least a four-peat. Well done on leading the SL comment thread this week, as well.
I see you hit SECNNOD too. Bask in your continued glory and savor the glow. Since you have consecutively scored FIRDT and SECNOD multiple times these past few weeks, I would like to award this week's SECNOD honors to a new SL commenter, @3, FloraW, with your blessings.:)

@3 FloraW; WA-HOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! Congratulations on scoring SECNOD honors in Savage Love Land this week, joining curious2 in leading the comment thread.. Bask in your newfound glory and savor the honors. :)

L1/A1 might benefit from adding the word "enough"; coping is a good sign.
xxx
A2 is remarkably Jesuitical; well played, Mr Savage. We don't know whether or not he's really advocating that LW2 rule shark his way out of any negative consequences. It also raises the question of how non-serious consequences have to be before one would seriously want a friend not to rule shark one's way out of them if such an escape were possible.
xxx
A3 seems a bit flippant. L3 raises the interesting question of when GGG is GGG enough and tack-ons afterwards. If H3 went out of his comfort zone and is now being told that it's not enough because he has to initiate, which he wasn't told at the start, he has table advantage.
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I'll agree that LW4 is lucky to be with his fiancee.
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One suspects that calling them "youth" has probably become quite the compliment by now.
xxx
L6 solves itself. It would have been more interesting had the first "they" referred not to the friend but to a couple for whom the friend was proposing to unicorn.
xxx
A7 seems fine.
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At least LW8 didn't have to pay Psychic Friend rates.
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A9 seems fine as well.
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FTWL

Bi widower teacher:
Continue as if nothing ever happened, don’t event acknowledge let alone thank the kind student who alerted you and truly deserves it. Be aware that any such move by you can be interpreted in different ways. The student may not mind and even be proud but may tell their parents or friends who may also tell their parents and there may be different takes as to what you really meant when you approached said student.
Parents can be weird, plenty school districts have already adhered.
I’m not sure what you should do in case a school official approaches you about the matter. I assume there are teachers among us commenters who can give you good advice, but for now my take is act as if nothing ever happened.

P.S. I’m surprised the official advice, coming from a knowledgeable person, implied even if remotely that this is could be an acceptable way to come out. It is not.

LW1's question struck a chord with Griz. I am currently dealing with service-connected PTSD, seasonally effective and anxiety disorder and irregular heart rate (with daily medication, regular exercise, VA PTSD therapy, ongoing physical therapy, staying musical, and a healthy diet). The return of good weather will help me a lot when I can get my beloved VW out of of winter storage. Additionally, I keep in touch regularly with my VA support network. When triggers hit me, I am quick to contact the VA Suicide Prevention Crisis Hotline (1(800) 273-8255 to speak to someone available 24/7 when I feel emotional trauma.

While I'm pretty healthy overall, and while my bad relationships are indeed in my past, I can't see myself returning to dating much less ever get married again. I have since been doing a lot of reflecting. Not so much focusing on what was so attractive about those from my past who used, abused, or hurt me, but instead, what was wrong with ME back then? What could I have done differently to prevent such awful series of events? I am left wondering how things might have been if I hadn't served an enlistment in the military. What if I had never met, became isolated and railroaded into marrying my then-future abusive spouse and his equally toxic family?
Would my gold-digging older sister have hatched a more diabolical plot to eliminate me from our parents' estate if I hadn't committed myself to four years of government service, never venturing 3,000 miles cross country for basic and technical training and three years and eight months stationed at my one command in the U.S. Navy in time of war as well as peace? Would the one guy I knew in college have succeeded in his plot, however lame, to forcibly abduct me and coerce me into becoming his lawfully wedded beard and bearer of children to appease his family and clergy members?
What would the quality of my sexual history be if I had lost my virginity to someone loving and caring, instead, rather than the fast-talking college buddy of a guy from my senior class in high school out to win a fraternity bet?
All this gives me great pause right now, is largely why I so often wear my heart on my sleeve, and put so much emotion in the music I compose and play.

Cow’s friend/pet owner
The only lactating woman I was involved with was my ex, and she was only lactating after the children were born.
If we follow Dr. Flora W @ 4 then this can be a tedious, potentially annoying process.

But I grew up on a farm and got to milk both goats and cows during my teens and early 20’s, so here is some practical advice in case your friend would still be into playing a cow even if not lactating.

Cows are big, but goats can be around our size and so are their tits and nipples. You can get your friend a goat milking stand like this one which also comes with a feed basket:
https://www.etsy.com/listing/908914566/goat-milking-stand-stanchion?ref=pla_similar_listing_top-6

and goat milking gear like this one:
https://www.amazon.com/Hantop-Pulsation-Rechargeable-Automatic-Livestock/dp/B086VGY21G/ref=asc_df_B086VGY21G/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=416949847877&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=441723487737481487&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9061304&hvtargid=pla-975599318837&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=94694114075&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=416949847877&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=441723487737481487&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9061304&hvtargid=pla-975599318837

Not only it is cheaper than cows’ milking gear, it’s also more “suitable for human consumption” as it comes with only two suction cups, as opposed to four for cows.

In case there is any interest, you should know that plenty cows piss, shit, and kick around before, during, and after being milked.
And if the friend is in the mooooo-d you can go to a real dairy farm where she can stand on four and moo with the rest of the cows. Being outside their locked area would be my choice, not so much for safety reasons as for the 6 inch or deeper layer of manure mixed with straw. Unless, of course, this is the preferred location.

@7 Your comment struck a chord for me. I've personally spent a lot of time lingering on the same kind of 'what ifs' - what if this or that circumstance had been different, or what if I'd then what I know now (e.g., If I hadn't moved across the country after college and met the love of my life, the sequence of events that lead to his death when we were in our 20s wouldn't have happened, and he would be alive out there somewhere). In my experience, it's a lot more productive to focus on 'what could I have done differently, knowing only what I did then?' e.g., Was I acting out of fear or suspicion, and could I have been braver or more charitable or compassionate instead? Did I actually have more power in that situation than I realized, and if so why the hell didn't I use it (a huge one for me)? Why did I choose this or that relationship, even though it didn't feel right? (Still trying to figure that one out.) Anyway, sorry for the long post. I often lurk around in the comments and your energy has restored my faith in humanity more than once, so thanks Griz!

@6. CMD. I don't think Dan took 'a Zoom event' for young people to mean the ordinary classroom teaching (classroom teaching but transposed from the classroom) of a salaried / professional schoolteacher.

@7. Griz. It is courageous and generous of you to transmute your pain and regrets into your music.

[break]
Is the imposter (in their heads) attending rope events unsure whether they want to be Dom or subby in this kink--to rig or be the bunny? Or perhaps they just want to watch? Or be around kinksters? I'd be interested in what the practitioners of this kink say--but it's intuitively plausible to me that a newbie might not know what role they want to play, or might feel attracted to 'swinging'. If of course there's one thing they want to do, but they're holding themselves back, I'd encourage them to become the person they already are in their fantasies.

Self-doubt is a big theme of the letters this week. My heart went out to the mentally ill person who worried that they were not in sufficiently good working order to date. The thing for self-doubting, misgiving people to realise is that self-doubt is practically universal: anyone going out and doing it is someone who has overcome imposter syndrome or fears of failing or looking absurd.

CMD @6, I agree re the bi widower. Looking at gay content on the internet is not necessarily evidence of one's own orientation. This man is a teacher, he may have been researching LGBT issues in order to be more informed regarding students' issues. I agree this is like the Zoom boobs incident: the less said, the better. Widower, GenZ really doesn't care whether you are gay. Awkward, embarrassing things have happened to most of us on Zoom this year, I'd venture. Just forget it happened, I'm sure your students already have.

I was very pleased to read Dude's letter about not wanting to imply he's the joint owner of his fiancée's house. Ms Dude, this guy is a keeper. And congratulations - it really is great to buy a place on one's own! I think it's great that Dude isn't intimidated by her success. Help with the inevitable DIY is good advice indeed.

Surely Dan didn't coin the phrase "tech-savvy, at-risk youth"? I've always been confused by it, personally.

Unicorn hunters, you already have your answer. Do you like drama, Y/N, because that's the price of admission.

Babysitter, you've already sent the correct message, that you're not interested. Agree with Dan, if he sends more selfies, you may need to spell it out. He may just be bored in the pandemic, as we all are. Echo the bi widower's advice to pretend this never happened.

CMD @8, great practical advice for Ms Cow!

@1: The Shadow firked!

Harriet @10 re CMD @6, why wouldn't he have? The letter says he was "teaching a zoom class to young people." I don't know where you got the word "event" or the idea that this isn't a normal, ordinary class that is being conducted online.

"My heart went out to the mentally ill person who worried that they were not in sufficiently good working order to date." Which one? L1 may have been written by the partner or prospective partner of such a person, or even a general question. I agree that people with mental health issues often wonder whether they are worthy of love.

@5: Agree that Dan's answer to L3 went from 0 to 60 in about a microsecond. I wonder if the livestream format encourages him to go for these un-nuanced, shoot-from-the-hip answers.

What does spelling "husband" as "huzzben" mean? I googled, and the only one who spells it that way seems to be Dan.

Fichu @15, Dan has said he started pronouncing it, then spelling it the way it pronounced, after gay marriage passed and he was finally allowed to marry Terry, because he never expected to be able to say he had a husband. "My husband" sounded so novel to him so he exaggerated its pronunciation. I can't find the Google link but he posted about it here. Clearly the caller is making an homage to Dan by spelling it that way.

Harriet re @10, the only thing we don't know is whether the young people in question are teenagers (high school students) or young adults (college students). CMD's answer makes more sense if this is high school. If it is college, Widower is in even less danger were he to be outed. But as I say, having a tab open to gay content is not a coming-out; it's not as if he left porn visible to students. I think the chances are slim indeed that the student who noticed the tab would say to their parents, "Mr Widower is gay!", or that the parents would care enough to repeat such innocuous "gossip." And isn't sexual orientation now protected in the US as far as employment goes? Presuming Widower is in the US. I guess there are a few things we don't know.

Ms Fichu - I thought LW3 was inviting the inference of a personal similarity to Mr Savage.
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Ms Fan - Employment protection depends on the state, and there are plenty of end runs available, even if the Equality Act ever passes.

CMD@6
Makes sense to me. For all anyone knows the tab labeled "gay" was research.

griz@7
Reflecting and being self-aware is great!

BDF@11
"Surely Dan didn't coin the phrase "tech-savvy, at-risk youth"?"

I think he did.

"I've always been confused by it, personally."

I've either seen or heard him explain it as self-deprecating humor mocking the idea that there's any way that being a gay man makes one a bad influence.

Ensign@12
Exactly, Pulver: The Shadow.

BDF@16
Exactly. It sounds really weird to /me/ when he says "huzzben", but at this point it's an inside joke.

BDF@17
"isn't sexual orientation now protected in the US as far as employment goes?"

Yes. However, depending upon the community and the school district, that might not matter much. People can still behave abominably. And employers can get away with illegal employment practices as long as they're not idiotic enough to state that the practices are for illegal reasons. In other words, an employer can make up and document some pretense that would be nearly impossible to fight. Employment rights are a fraught battlefield.

Mr. venn@18
"Employment protection depends on the state"

It appears you are forgetting the ruling of maybe a year-ish ago, easily the most important civil rights ruling by SCOTUS since Roe v. Wade. I crowed about it here like crazy, including about how that even conservatives joined it should give you confidence that progress is powerful and real. I suspect your subconscious chose to forget because it didn't fit with your very understandable worries.

If you have a personality disorder like narcissism or psychopathy, you are not in good working order for a relationship and probably never will be. It’s very possible that you’ll enter relationships anyway, that will be understood as unhealthy by outsiders and/or your partner.

If your substance use is causing problems for you, it will likewise cause problems for a partner. Your best shot at a good relationship with productive teamwork is after getting control of the substance in question, which may require long-term medication. If you use the common workaround of partnering with someone else whose substance use is causing problems for them, they’ll share their problems with you.

If you have a serious mental illness like schizophrenia or bipolar, if you get it under control you can absolutely have relationships. Stay away from street drugs, cannabis and alcohol; take your meds; get exercise and eat right; and maintain a network of friends, family and social workers who can give you a heads-up when your brain starts acting up again. Yes, you can have good relationships. Even if you are not completely stable, as long as you are honest with everyone about what to expect and how to help you. These relationships might be part-time or intermittent but they can still be loving and meaningful. If you can’t manage your serious mental illness it’s not gonna work. You might hook up but it’s not going to be long-term.

If you have a debilitating depressive and/or anxiety disorder that interferes with generating an income or activities of daily living, you need to get a hold on it. Otherwise your partner will expend so much psychic energy supporting you that it will be damaging for them.

If you have been subject to abusive relationships growing up, especially if others were not available to adequately defend you, you probably need to build a good relationship with a therapist first. You won’t know how to set or respect boundaries appropriately and it’s just going to be a mess. You’ll probably need to stay in touch with a therapist over time for reality checks.

+++ +++ +++

Teal Deer says: If you can mostly manage your own life, you can have good, mutually supportive relationships with people who can mostly manage their lives and who Get You. Teamwork is fabulous.

+++ +++ +++

You may not be up for a full-time relationship. You may be able to pull it together to be relationship material a few days a week but need the rest of your time to relapse into your dysfunctional self without anyone buzzing over you and trying to fix you.

This is OK. Very much so. Be realistic about what you have to give. If full-time is not for you, be upfront about it and don’t fall for someone trying to persuade you otherwise.

It might help to look at the “good working order” problem from the opposite side — someone who is considering entering a relationship with someone with a serious mental illness. The following is taken from comments I posted a long time ago in another forum in a discussion thread about the ethics of dominating a schizophrenic sub in a D/s relationship.

+++ +++ +++

Absolutely, someone with schizophrenia can consent. He’s an adult and he’s not an immediate danger to himself or others, therefore he’s allowed to do any legal thing he wants. If he wants to be your slave he’s totally allowed to do that.

If he’s telling you he’s worried about his mental stability, it’s probably time for him to visit his doctor and make sure his condition is being as well-managed as possible. If he trusts you enough to tell you this he might trust you enough to let you see his doctor with him, which would be an opportunity to ask questions.

Typically all a person with well-managed schizophrenia needs is a reality check when they’re starting to veer off the rails. “I think your brain is playing tricks on you again.” “This person is a waitress. She wants to know if you want coffee or tea.” They’re well-managed. They know how to redirect their thoughts.

It’s very common, for a variety of reasons, for people with schizophrenia to abuse substances. It’s really terrible for them. If your slave is smoking dope or using crack or snorting orange peel at all I would consider them to be not in good enough shape to play with. (Not because they can’t consent. If they’re doing those things there’s probably a lot going on in their minds that you have no idea of, and therefore you can’t consent.)

Schizophrenics often have very high pain tolerance. You need to be careful that you aren’t injuring him.

There are some excellent books on schizophrenia for loved ones. They’d be worth checking out.

+++ +++ +++

A negative symptom is something that is not present; a positive symptom is something that is present. In the case of schizophrenia,
• cognitive delay and flattened affect would be negative symptoms because something is missing that would be there in a healthy person;
• delusions and hallucinations would be positive symptoms because something is present that would be absent in a healthy person.

While for most of us it’s the positive symptoms of schizophrenia that seem most disturbing, they’re actually relatively easy to treat compared to the negative symptoms. One person might be quite disabled by persistent negative symptoms, while someone else might have spectacular positive symptoms that respond well to treatment, and live a full and productive life.

+++ +++ +++

People are held legally responsible for all kinds of things they consented to while delusional. People with florid bipolar mania are held fully responsible for the credit card bills they run up, for instance.

If you aren’t doing any permanent damage to this guy, you can feel ethically fine. Don’t isolate him from his support system; don’t interfere with his treatment; don’t cost him his job; don’t tattoo him; don’t castrate him. You’re fine.

The term "tech-savvy, at-risk youth" was coined by Dan years ago, late 1990’s or early 2000’s as I recall.
It’s always used as an appreciative, fun nod to the “youngsters” (a term Venn dreads for some reason) who help SL with setting up the podcast, web pages, researchers, and the like.

@13. Bi. I did not form the impression that the lw left the tab up in the ordinary course of his high-school teaching. This was because he said that he was 'teaching a Zoom class to young people', not something like 'I left the tab up while teaching class'. He says 'students' and 'young people', not children; and there's a presumption in the letter that the class understand what's meant by 'gay'. It also seemed to me likelier that someone would have multiple screens and programs open if their teaching was a contract, part-time or one-off job (if they had many strings to their bow), than were they a professional classroom teacher e.g. working from textbooks or a syllabus. I got the idea that he was teaching something like fitness, sports or music.

Would a schoolteacher either be out or presumptively het to a class of schoolkids? Maybe yes, these days, but I would have thought not; students' concern in this case could only be with his competence as a pedagogue. Perhaps the questioner is concerned about being outed to the school management? It's more likely to me that a teacher is out to a class of young people he leads in picking up some particular skill. But there need be no embarrassment in this case in either being gay or bicurious (or bi, or closeted). (My insta-read that the lw is not a full-time classroom teacher could be completely offbeam, based on differences between how U.S. and British teachers talk about their jobs; I was education at an English public school between 14 and 18. Apologies if so).

My advice to the lw is that he is likely shaming himself and worrying unnecessarily. Being bi is no cause for shame; neither being enthusiastic nor being hesitant about exploring the other side of your sexuality after the death of your wife is cause for shame. Anyone sympathetic to you, anyone humane at all, would cut you some slack on the tab and wish you all the best. Wishing you strength both in your grief and your exploration of new possibilities

@21. Alison. Part of what I understand 'good working order' to mean is 'having identified the problematic patterns of behavior' you 'tend to fall into in relationships'--patterns perhaps prompted by someone's acting through unresolved psychological issues bequeathed by past experiences (maybe within romantic relationships, maybe from childhood). Someone who is possessive to the point of craving exclusiveness, someone fearing abandonment to the degree they deny their partner any autonomy, someone moved to jealousy by the least sign of interest on their partner's part in anything other than them--people meeting these descriptions are not 'in good working order' and would do well to reflect on themselves, in private, with friends, with a therapist, before recommitting to the singles scene.

A person dealing with their mental health issues may well be 'in good order' to date.

Curious and CMD, thank you for enlightening me as to the origin of that phrase. Add it to the Dictionary of Useful Dan Phrases alongside santorum, pegging and DTMFA. I always thought the "at risk" referred to millennials' precocious housing situations. Agree that most millennials are neither at risk of much, nor youths anymore.

Harriet @23: "I got the idea that ..." You have a tendency to get lots of ideas that have nothing to do with the letter as written. He just said he was teaching a zoom class to young people. That could be any subject and "young" could be high school or college, perhaps even middle school. Does it matter? A view of his screen with a tab open that clearly said "gay" was noticed by someone, potentially a class full of someones. Does this mean he's been outed? Middle school kids may titter, and you or I may not appreciate this as people who are out, but Widower said he is not out -to anyone-. Of course he is more worried about what teenagers or young adults have seen than you or I would be. He says he's a widower, which suggests to me he is not a young man, and that, due to his presumably hetero marriage, he is read as straight and hopes to keep it that way. Certainly, in this day and age we can hope that no one would be embarrassed by having their orientation revealed, or by being thought of as gay when one is not. Widower clearly does not think this way, so the best advice to him is that nobody else really cares -- which happens to be true.

Harriet_by_the_bulrushes @23,

Agreed, and I think that’s a summary of what I said.

I gave particular examples because we don’t know what particular mental health problem the LW was thinking about. Perhaps the LW has just started taking medication for moderate anxiety, and is reimagining their future and catastrophizing. Perhaps the LW’s sibling is recently divorced because they killed their child during a psychotic episode, and the LW is worried they will be stuck with all the responsibility of caring for someone lonely, unpartnered and erratic for eternity. Perhaps the LW has just been diagnosed with a personality disorder and is feeling unlovable and persecuted.

Different disorders can limit a person’s ability to participate in healthy relationships to different degrees and in different ways. I wanted to give examples of this.

Two (or more) somewhat-broken people can have a good relationship and be better together than they are apart. Most of us are in this category. So how much is too broken? How do you know? Examples help.

Re BDSM lover with the huzzben who doesn't initiate. I agree with Ens.Pulver @14 that Dan jumped too quickly to outsourcing.

I'd advise being attentive and generous to "huzzben", making sure he feels well satisfied sexually. Then I'd discuss reasonable ways for him to reciprocate.

Maybe LW kneels and offers a collar, and if huzzben smiles and buckles it on, then LW goes to the bedroom, lays out a few toys for the scene, and sets up their own restraints, attaching them as much as they can, so huzzben just buckles the last cuff in place and selects from the toys. Planning a scene is a lot of work, so it's not unreasonable to expect the more eager partner to take on more of that work.

If he still won't engage, or if the initiating/desiring piece is key to the LW, then, yes, they may need to get that elsewhere.

@Alison - thank you for the excellent overviews of how to think about kink and schizophrenia; saving for future reference.

CMD@22
Oh yes, I neglected to mention that TSARY refers to Dan's staff. Who are probably old enough to have children who work for Dan now.

/Break/
I might know the term from the Lovecast. Sadly I stopped both my subscription and listening to it when I joined the Commentariat. I haven't had time for the Lovecast for quite a while. And whereas one can interact here, with the Lovecast we're mere audience.

later dan!! it's been great. learned a ton. but your shit just isn't interesting any more. good luck. please retire before this generation's incessant need for hand-holding completely destroys you. i know it can't be natural for you at all. sorry this is where your revolution ended up.

Skr Curious - Oh, yes, the case where Justice Gorsuch flipped. From all I've been hearing, that decision doesn't seem to have stopped anyone, or at most it's just caused them to find some other pretext in much the same way that Mr Savage has instanced service providers simply needing to utter the magic words Sincerely Held Religious Beliefs to turn us away.

Back when I was fired for being gay and even called an F during the exit interview, it reflected badly on me and meant the entire field became off limits. But now, I suspect I'd prefer its being so open, as one could then approach better capitalists and be seen as a likely asset rather than be fired on some conjured excuse of incompetence and have to carry that around.

dropout @28, good luck & take care. What revolution?

Loved the live lovecast, although I got sleepy and missed the final half.

I thought I heard him answer the biwidower gay browser tab during the 'cast, and this column was for Qs he didn't get to answer live? Was that edible affecting his memory?! Or too much work affecting my memory (no edibles, sadly, in my state)?!

curious2 @19 - functionally, the willingness of courts or HR to uphold federal non-discrimination law varies widely by geographic area ), and the financial ability of the plaintiff.

SLOGgers - I had to Google "rope jam". How commonly is that used? I say this having gone to many gay bondage events that included (but were not limited to) shibari. Is that a straight BDSM term? One common to describe shibari-only events? (Shibari - now that's a ton of work on the part of the top!)

Dan - Just an FYI, legal ownership of property may or may not change with a marriage, depending on the laws of the state involved. Louisiana, for instance, is a "community property" state, where everything acquired during the marriage is generally considered property of the community (ie the marriage) rather than belonging to either individual. That said - property owned BEFORE a marriage is "separate property" and remains so during the marriage; if the property produces income (say, a rental home owned before the marriage), then if the rental income is kept separate, it too is considered separate property. (If the rental income is comingled with income from either spouse earned during the community, that rental income becomes community property as well, but the property itself remains separate.)

Conversely, there are states where absent a prenuptial agreement to the contrary, assets owned before the marriage may become part of the community and thus subject to joint ownership.

So the house in question may or may not become owned in part by the second spouse, depending on the laws of the state in which they live.

The "gay tab" question was asked and answered - differently - on the LoveCast Live. Perhaps Dan wanted a do-over?

Interesting, how did Dan answer the question on the lovecast?

Some more options for sexy cow playtime:

Giving her a cow name and talk to her in that manner may also be a turn on. “HI Edna, you have such nice big tits, I’m sure you have plenty milk for us today. Yes, climb up there, good cow, now let me place those suction cups on you while you munch on some hay.”

I’m reminded that a co-worker back in those days told me once how fun it is to spread powdered milk on your genitalia and have a young calf lick it enthusiastically. He added that they also tend to mistake a penis for a nipple but warned that one must making sure they don’t have any teeth yet.
I’m doubt he ever practiced any of it, I know I didn’t, and it could have only been a joke. Joke or not, a scene alluding to such acts appeared in a movie years later.

Back then it was also common to play classical music during milking sessions, as it was known to calm the cows and ensure high production.
(One would assume Stravinsky and Chopin were excluded from the playlist, though I did play some of my Zappa tapes on some shifts yet didn’t notice a difference.)

cowboy @32: Dan said "assuming you live in a marital property state, Mr. Dude, the house becomes yours too after you’re married." Assuming they live in a state, aren't already "common law", and so on. But LW wasn't asking about that.

Alison @20/21, thanks for interesting comments.
LW1; to me ‘good working order’ relates to knowing yourself and your boundaries/ strengths/ weaknesses etc. so what one offers another in intimacy doesn’t cause damage to either.

It’s a difficult phrase, ‘good working order,’ because does it include physical health as well as mental health? Someone injured and becomes a paraplegic are no longer in good physical working order yet many retain heathy relationships. Might be time to retire that phrase Dan, because it’s way too vague, and many people, like LW1, who respect your views, are stressing about it.

@6, I disagree.

Even if the Bi Widow Teacher was teaching kids in a public school (the particular setting wasn't specified in the question), having a "gay" tab open is nothing to worry about in any state or city with active LGBT protections. I've worked in schools, and been 100% out and open with even middle-school students. I've had a pride flag hanging in my classroom. In school districts with any kind of active multi-cultural encouragement, this is completely appropriate. Kids SHOULD know that some of their teachers are gay, just like gay people are part of any occupation.

It needs to be age-appropriate, obviously. LGBT teachers can't be showing explicit imagery or fraternizing with students, any more than their hetero coworkers. But merely acknowledging your orientation, discussing LGBT civil rights, or having an age-appropriate photo of your same-sex spouse on your desk, is perfectly acceptable, and in some school districts even encouraged.

So long as there was nothing age-inappropriate on his screen, Bi Widow Teacher probably has nothing to worry about from a legal perspective (unless he works in a private religious school, or in some retrograde conservative district with no LGBT protections). There's nothing about having a non-explicit, generic, "gay" tab open that will get him in trouble, even if a student blabs to a parent, and the parent complains. If he's closeted and wants to stay that way, such an incident might be personally uncomfortable and embarrassing, but it won't be cause for discipline in most reasonable school districts these days.

Mr. venn@29
Oh I don't disagree about that. Just a few words before addressing you @19 I was bemoaning the near impossibility of fighting a /smart/ bigoted employer.

I was only pointing out that the issue has been won federally as applied by SCOTUS.

I see that delta35@31 has defended venn's statement @18 that "Employment protection depends on the state", saying:

"functionally, the willingness of courts or HR to uphold federal non-discrimination law varies widely by geographic area ), and the financial ability of the plaintiff."

None of which I disagree with. As I said @19 "Employment rights are a fraught battlefield." One which I fought upon very hard.

But ultimately (while HR can always be expected to be evil), the law can be enforced above circuit level, in SCOTUS. So while the fighting will continue for a long time, it no longer simply depends upon the state.

RP @ 39
Not sure what you’re disagreeing with. I never implied the teacher did anything wrong, only that he should do nothing at this point as approaching the student and thanking them may get different interpretations along the way.
I’m glad to know that he has nothing to worry about.

Skr Curious - I'm starting to think it doesn't matter anyway. By the time the era in which the right overturns all our gains in standing has ended and the climate would allow rebuilding them, the left will refuse to do so because by then it will be calling us almost as evil as the right did in the Age of Reagan, though for almost totally reversed reasons.

The time to thank the student would have been when they sent the message, "Hey, you know there's a tab open that says 'gay'?" "Oh, whoops. Thanks for letting me know." If he didn't say that then, he shouldn't say it now. A gay tab might not out him, but the fact that he is still worrying about GayTabGate will.

BiDanFan @34: It was something along the lines of "don't worry about it; the tab could have been anything."

Re: impostor syndrome person, I've known a few non-kinky people in the kink community, and am good friends with one of them. This friend found the rope world through his interest in photography, and stuck around. I'm actually not sure if his lack of personal interest in bondage makes him a better or worse bondage photographer (good arguments can be made for both points), but he's definitely as much a part of my local kink community as anyone.

That said, I think it can be a problem when the spectators and kink tourists become too many. I've seen this "gentrification" of kink spaces in some of London's bigger clubs and rope studios, and I don't like it. It's a totally different vibe when half the people at a party are there to spectate or take "look at me" selfies for their Instagram. This is why I mostly stopped going to these larger events, and when I did, it was just to dance and socialise, not to play. I'm sure there are other kinksters who moved on for similar reasons. The question-asker mentioned "rope jams [plural] and such", which makes me think they probably live in an urban area with a large and vibrant kink scene, so gentrification could be a concern. I guess it's a good thing they're thinking about it, unless they just wanted Dan to give his blessing.

Bi fan @24 "I always thought the "at risk" referred to millennials' precocious housing situations."

Lol, precocious does not mean what you think it does. I've known a few millennials in precarious housing situations, but rarely have I observed a truly precocious housing situation, even among non-mlilenials.

@9 ultimategray: Many thanks for responding and sharing, too. Music has always been a deep passion of mine, and has proven time and again to be my most effective of self-induced therapy. Throughout my life I have found that so often when I stumble on spoken words, music serves me infinitely better in communicating my thoughts, desires, needs, and uphill battles, whether they are with others or within myself.

@10 Harriet_by_the_Bulrushes: Many thanks! I have indeed orchestrated my pain, fear, and my abusive ex-spouse's unrestrained rage in my first composed symphony (c.2007).

@19 curious2: Reflecting and being self-aware can also be painful, too, as doing so can often tear open old, long healed wounds. But re-evaluation and re-assessment of bad situations can indeed be helpful to ensure that terrible circumstances in life are--hopefully---never again repeated. What to do when some traumatic experiences are beyond one's ability to have prevented at the time?

@28: Philosophy School Dropout: All the best--stay healthy and safe. I'm a little confused, though, by your comment to Dan. What revolution?

Back again from physical therapy and a good soak, Griz is back to Movie Night. In honor of March 24th (1984--at least, in the John Hughes teen angst film's opening narration by Anthony Michael Hall), Griz will be enjoying a DVD rerun of The Breakfast Club, while dining on "brinner" (breakfast for dinner), Arnold Palmers, and red, red wine (I need the antioxidants). :)

And I got my economic stimulus today, too, blessedly, managing to avoid NSF charges.
Thank you and bless you President Joe Biden, Vice President Kamala Harris and Administration, and all who voted in this latest honest and fair election to ensure their inauguration into the White House :)

Only 20 more comments to the Lucky @69 Award? Who's hungry? Tick...tick...tick...

Venn @29, I'm so sorry that happened to you.

Fubar @44, I prefer that answer.

Bread @46, forehead slap! Indeed that was the wrong word, I blame GenX menopausal/early Alzheimer's brain. Though I'm pleased you observed Muphry's Law and misspelled millennials. ;)

Griz @47, Philosophy is a troll. Mute them, you'll be happier. Indeed, happy anniversary to The Breakfast Club, which remains the best high school movie ever made.

Dropout wasn’t a troll! Honestly Fan. What has happened to you. Gawd this epidemic has done damage to some people’s intelligence. Notice how this thread gets smaller and smaller.. less and less people commenting.
Empty vessels make the most sound.
The only revolution I’ve heard talk of here was way back when Susan Sarandon said trump winning would bring on the revolution.

Not implying Susan ‘ I don’t vote for a Vagina’ Sarandon commented here directly. It was relayed on the daily thread. Please Dan bring the daily SLOG back sometime soon, if possible.

Re @52 erase the word “daily..”
I’ll now return you to your normal blah blah blah. Over to you, Fan.

Thanks, BiDan and Mr. Venn. Always good to learn new words.

Mr. venn@42
"By the time the era in which the right overturns all our gains"

I know that politics is a roller-coaster between left and right, but it seems to me that we and SCOTUS have just hit a bottom and rebounded. A bit. You think we just went through a /good/ period from which things will become more rightwing?

As you know I don't think it's just a roller-coaster, I think there are gains which aren't lost. Or are we also about to go back to the days when nearly everyone toiled seven 18-hour days a week without ever a day off or a weekend? Children too?

Will women be losing the vote and property rights, will black people become literally enslaved and lynched routinely again?

(A rightwinger today is appalled at the valid notion that had he lived in slavery times he'd have supported it.)

I don't think the only reason I don't see those things happening is that seeing them would undermine my progressive life's work.

"the left will...be calling us almost as evil as the right did in the Age of Reagan"

Why will the left be calling gay people evil?

I'm surprised that none of the Americans here have chimed in about the meaning of the term "at-risk youth" (unless I just missed it). It was a very common phrase used in the 80s and 90s to refer to kids who were at risk of dropping out of school and turning to crime. Lots of non-profit and governmental programs were targeted at saving the "at-risk" youth. Dan has previously joked that the main way the TSARY were at risk was being in a room with him. It's just an old inside joke from the early days of the podcast.

@55. Not to pick nits, but there was NEVER a time when lynching was routine. From NAACP.org "From 1882-1968, 4,743 lynchings occurred in the United States. Of these people that were lynched 3,446 were black. The blacks lynched accounted for 72.7% of the people lynched."

I only point this out because I feel those of us on the left should probably be more focused on the many many laws and policies that damaged the broad African American community, and not fixated on the relatively uncommon lynchings and police shootings. Yes they're horrible, but for that 100 year period blacks couldn't get decent jobs, they couldn't be in labor unions, they were provided poor education, forced to live in ghettos... need I go on?

Delta35 @31

SLOGgers - I had to Google "rope jam". How commonly is that used? I say this having gone to many gay bondage events that included (but were not limited to) shibari. Is that a straight BDSM term? One common to describe shibari-only events? (Shibari - now that's a ton of work on the part of the top!)

IME, "rope jam" is a pretty common term in the pan/het rope community. I've probably first heard it around 2015/2016. All the rope jams I've been to were held in spaces specifically set up for rope play, with mats on the floor and usually suspension points, rather than your usual sticky-floor club-type environment. So maybe the concept of a "rope jam" has developed at the same time as these more purpose-built studios sprung up, which hasn't been that long. For me a jam is sort of in-between a peer-rope learning space and a play party. The dress code is casual and ropey, there's socialising, some ambient music, some informal demos, some low-key scenes, maybe some nudity but normally no sex or heavy SM. As for "shibari", it depends what exactly you mean by that. Jams are not specifically for Japanese bondage, and no one will tell you you're "doin it rong" (unless they're an ass). Many people will probably be doing some Japanese-inspired fusion rope, though. Experience/skill levels will vary. Some places will allow other BDSM toys and play, but you should expect it to be very rope-centric.

Also, as a shibari top I have to say that when it comes to suspension, it's actually the models/bottoms who do a ton of work :) The tops just get all the credit.

tim@57
"Not to pick nits"

Yes you did, and that was just the start of it.

You changed the subject completely. I was engaged in a long-running discussion I've had with venn; in it, I feel bad about venn's pessimism, and cite examples of progress that I think it's unreasonable to expect will be lost. In other words, in no way is my mentioning this progress an example of "the left" focusing on the wrong thing.

The 'right' things you mention I simply didn't list because you gave a list mostly of things that haven't improved.

"there was NEVER a time when lynching was routine. From NAACP.org "From 1882-1968, 4,743 lynchings occurred in the United States. Of these people that were lynched 3,446 were black. The blacks lynched accounted for 72.7% of the people lynched."

Let's say that those 3,446 documented black lynchings were the only ones that occurred in those 86 years. (In a country far less populated than today.) That's one black lynching every 9 days. That sounds pretty fucking routine to me, but not to you?

"need I go on?"

Certainly not, there was no need for you to begin.

Ms Fan - Thank you.
xxx
Skr Curious - off the top of my head: Most of the negative comments I encounter about straight (wo)men apply equally well to all monosexuals, the veneer is wearing off, and, worst of all, we discriminate against women. We're still being blamed for the Bush re-election. Many of us don't think being subservient to the working class is any improvement over being subservient to the moneyed class or the professional class. The gender abolitionists are already pushing the line that EVERYONE is bi or pan, NO exceptions. Trans activists have started to own that trans equality entails at least a significant change in what it means to be gay. And Mr Savage, who seems to be a bit of a bellwether, was going on in last week's podcast about how those gays who are totally fine with having gay heterosex (Ms Cute, I knew I would be using that one soon) are superiour to gays who are merely homosexual in the way Miss Brodie would explain it (although I've always found that MM participants for whom it's entirely about gender are not much less difficult than those for whom it's entirely about privates). And we have definitely lost The Young.

I'll spare everyone the detailed versions.

Mr. venn@60
"Mr Savage...was going on in last week's podcast about how those gays who are totally fine with having gay heterosex...are superiour"

What is gay heterosex? Gay sex with an opposite sex person in the room but not participating?

Regardless, I'm having a difficult time accepting that Dan thinks any kind of sexuality is better than any other.

Lost Margarita @58 sticky floor - LOL, that describes all the (gay) bondage clubs I've gone to! Shibari - and the work - I've seen several expert scenes - took the master an hour to tie up his guy, then extended session hot wax / e-stim / clothes pins, edging him, and quite a long time to untie him. The most elaborate knots I've seen, very much Shibari trained.

Venn @29 sorry you were fired / had your field closed off. If it is not too unpleasant can you share what decade, what country / region, whether rural or urban, what field? So much discrimination I don't think that would identify you.

curious2 @61 gay heterosex. That's MF sex that is fabulous, darling?!

BiDanFan @50: Philosophy was a troll, but they announced @28 their departure from the commentariat. Byeeeeee.

Mr. venn@60
"gay heterosex"

I've got a new guess: is it MM sex with MF gender roles?

@29 vennominon: I am sorry that you were so unfairly discriminated against at work. That really sucks. Sending cyber hugs, positrons, and VW beeps.

@50 BiDanFan: Hugs, positrons, and VW beeps! Agreed on The Breakfast Club on nailing teen angst. I can identify with Ally Sheedy's shy, quirky Allison Reynolds all too easily. Quirky is a good fit for me. My all time favorite of John Hughes' Chicago teen comedy films will always be Ferris Bueller's Day Off.
Matthew Broderick in the title role indeed said it best:
"Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it."
Chic chic chic-AAAAAHHHHHHHHHHhhhhhh.... :)

@51 LavaGirl: Now I need to watch Thelma & Louise and The Witches of Eastwick (again, both for the upteenth time)!!
All hail Susan Sarandon! :)
and
@51 LavaGirl: I read about the millions of spiders in Australia seeking higher ground from all the flooding. Hopefully you and your family aren't being attacked by invading arachnids! :O
Sending cyber hugs, positrons, and VW beeps! :)

@63 fubar: I made a comment to Philosophy upon his announcement of departure from the SL commentariat. It has remained unanswered. I could not figure out what Philosophy meant by a revolution (??) in his statement to Dan. I guess Byeeeeee is right. :{ ?
fubar, I have gotta hug you, too! Sending hugs, positrons, and VW beeps your way, too. :)

From the context of venn's sentence, I'm guessing that "gay heterosex" is when a cis gay man has sex with a trans man who still has his vagina. If I'm right, I'd also like to think that "gay heterosex" is venn's invention, and Dan wasn't actually saying that on the podcast.

Curious @61, I agree with Margarita @67's surmise what Venn means by "gay heterosex" is the idea that trans men are men for the purposes of gay relationships. I can see that Dan might deem gay men who are open to trans men superior to those who are not, and I agree that he would never call it "heterosex" because trans men are men and sex between two men is not hetero sex.

Venn's words, plus a conversation with a friend of mine who is an amab enby who is only attracted to women, got me thinking that we may need a new vocabulary that is non-binary inclusive. Is my friend "straight"? Calling them straight implies they are a man, which erases their identity as non-binary. Perhaps instead of straight, gay, bi, pan, we need words that mean "I like women (including trans women and afab enbies)," "I like men (as previously)," "I like only cis men/cis women," "I am open to any gender." Then Venn could tell the world he likes cis men and cis men only without having to use twisted, transphobic phrases like "gay heterosex."

Delta @62: Ha! I prefer your interpretation of "gay heterosex."

Griz @66, I was Anthony Michael Hall with a dash of Ally Sheedy. Hugs and bicycle beeps back at you!

Ha, can't resist!

I'll venture that many, if not most, trans men would experience dysphoria from PIV and would therefore leave that body part off the table during sex. If he's only participating with his mouth, hands, toys and/or asshole, there is no reason to call such sex hetero. Any more than a woman giving a man a blowjob or pegging him is "gay sex." And a gay cis man who was not interested in vagina would be just as within his rights to decline PIV with a trans man as a straight man would be to decline pegging. If the trans man in question were into PIV, he could choose to not accept that dealbreaker and continue looking for, probably, a nice bi or homoflexible man who could appreciate all his parts.

Femisexual
Mascusexual
Cisfemisexual
Cismascusexual
Omnisexual

What do y'all think?

BDF @70 I agree that some new words would be good, but I somehow doubt that your average straight bloke would ever go for "cisfemisexual"...

Margarita @71, I would hope an average straight bloke would be femisexual. (The idea is that the default should signify trans inclusive, with trans exclusive being seen as the exception.)
Then, I suppose I don't know an awful lot of average straight blokes.

Delta @62

"The most elaborate knots I've seen, very much Shibari trained"

From the rest of your description, it does sound like a shibari/kinbaku scene, which means they were probably not "knots" but frictions. In Japanese-style bondage, everything is held together with frictions (literally rope twisted around rope in an aesthetically pleasing way, without making a proper knot), tension/ counter-tension, and the shape of the body itself, because there's a lot of emphasis on "flow" - the sensual process of tying and untying. If you're fiddling with "elaborate knots", you're focussing on the rope and not the person you're tying. So there's usually just one rudimentary knot in the beginning (usually a rope cuff around a limb, which ends in a granny or reef knot), and then just frictions. This is also why we normally use jute or hemp rope, which has a lot of tooth and will stay in place without proper knots. It all relates to several Japanese aesthetic concepts, such as simplicity of form and function. Western bondage comes from a totally different place, so you do see a lot of complex knots, both nautical and decorative. These days what I see most is a Japanese-inspired fusion style, which is also how I do my bondage.

BDF@68
" I agree with Margarita @67's surmise"

Ah, I think you two must be right. I thought someone other than venn had coined it, but that sounds like a venn-ism to me.

I can't see Dan deeming it "superior", but I can see his saying something positive of it in light of how fully it embraces the truth that trans men are men.

"sex between two men is not hetero sex"

Right. But when it involves a vagina, venn apparently wants that noted, in that it departs from his ideal of gay-male-purity. Were I to want that noted (which I don't, I think that is extremely offensive) I might use some word derived from 'vagina'. Gay male 'vaginasex'. Just so everyone who is so-inclined will appropriately assign the (very in)appropriate stigma to the participants.

BDF@70
Those are some good words. Perhaps in the distant future people might use words that mean those things.

Curious @74, I agree that Dan is unlikely to have used the word superior (and much less the nonexistent word superiour, which is definitely a Venn-ism). I agree it's far more probably he simply encouraged gay men to open their minds to trans men. Agree that Venn's term is offensive; why not just call it PIV? If you need to call it anything at all, which I don't see why you would unless you were one of the parties to the sex. "Can a trans man get pregnant from PIV," might be one context. Surely presuming a need for a separate word for sex that involves a trans man is just as offensive as presuming all gay male sex is anal sex. How people get each other off is their business.

BiDanFan @75: Superiour is an alternative, albeit obsolete, spelling of superior. I imagine Ms. Jean Brodie would prefer it.

curious2 @73 Thank you for the detail, you are describing it very well. There are quite a few pics up at the nybondageclub site, but most are "regular" BDSM scenes like restraints, flogging, you have to really scroll through the archives to find the more elaborate shibari ones that are quite beautiful. Frictions and kinbaku describes it perfectly. (And many of the guys are really hot too, if you're into seeing guys tied up.)

Humorous aside - I googled kinbaku and I got a goodreads book page on Kinbaku: The Art of Rope Bondage by Nawashi Murakawa, and all the ads are for Lexus. I accidentally clicked very quickly on the ad not the book and wondered WTF does Lexus have to do with rope bondage? :)

BDF@75
"How people get each other off is their business."

Yes.

To magnify the trauma of coming out to his mom, Dan describes it as having told her that he 'sucks dicks'. Given that bigoted people focusing on this (body part imagery) is part of the trauma that venn himself has presumably been subjected to, he should be able to see that if he wishes to focus on body parts, doing so invades other people's private space, is offensive, and is bigoted.

venn, I didn't say /you/ are bigoted (I remember you saying many times that you aren't making such judgements), I'm saying that when people set about seeking purity (for their sexual preference, or, say, the "Aryan race"), they are likely to end up using bigoted language. And perhaps this should give them some pause WRT their goal of purity in the first place.

BDF @69 - congrats on scoring the 69!

BDF @70 - here's an article with different terms for a similar idea:

"Gynesexual (sometimes spelled gynosexual) involves an attraction to femininity. Basically, to be gynesexual is to be attracted to a person who identifies as female or displays stereotypically feminine characteristics—and that person could be male, female, trans, or non-binary."

"Gynesexuality is similar to androsexuality: Gynesexual people are attracted to women or feminine people and androsexual people are attracted to men or masculine people, American Association of Sexuality Educators, Counselors and Therapists (AASECT) certified sexuality educator Elizabeth Boskey, PhD, tells Health."

"Unlike many other sexual identity terms, gynesexuality doesn't specify the person's own gender. People who identify as gynesexual may also identify as male, female, nonbinary, or something else"

https://www.health.com/mind-body/health-diversity-inclusion/gynesexual

Skr Curious - Roots. That specific term was selected with great care to indicate openness to acts involving parts substantially different from one's own. Trans men are men. Gay trans men are gay. Acts involving those two words I never use are not homo (and from the gay point of view anything involving the AFAB one).

Please feel free to improve upon it if inclined. I doubt anyone is, as it's much more fun just to bash me, but I do find utility in distinguishing differences.

For the record, I'm more open to trans partners than Mr Savage. To give fuller context, the subject arose last week when Mr S discussed the vile Superstraight phenomenon, but took it the other way and said that the "super" gays are the ones who have no genital preferences whatsoever. He put himself in the inferiour category as having an AMAB requirement. I have at least plausibly and maybe probably had a trans partner or two - due to the logistics of my particularities (which I never specify because I'd be bullied off the board) it neither became known nor mattered then or later. I've just always had hard limits on what I'll do; I expect most of my fellow conquerors of conversion therapy have similar positions.

Ms Cute found the original of some utility. I'm sure it can be improved. If people would rather burn me in effigy, have at it.

Mr. venn@80
"Please feel free to improve upon it if inclined. I doubt anyone is, as it's much more fun just to bash me, but I do find utility in distinguishing differences."

We all from time to time seek to distinguish differences, but some of us not frequently enough to want a new word for them.

"I have...maybe probably had a trans partner or two"

I apologize for leaping to conclusions that the language that troubled me, from your familiar and understandable concerns about future greater persecution of gay men, and about future dissolution of gay male culture. I'm sorry, I was wrong to "bash" you for that.

"If people would rather burn me in effigy"

I was also wrong to make a straw man. I did try to distinguish between the language and you.

" the logistics of my particularities...I'd be bullied off the board"

I would hope not!

"those two words I never use"

I wish there was a FAQ so I could understand that sentence.

Honestly, this board.

Venn, you said a bad thing. It's unfortunate that people simply pointing this out only deepens your persecution complex.

I might be totally wrong here, but when I read your comments like the one @80, I see someone who's carrying around some serious trauma. Trauma makes people see things that simply aren't there (and I say this as someone who's also had to deal with trauma). I'm sorry that you had to experience the horrors of conversion therapy, but this has nothing to do with trans and non-binary people fighting for basic human rights and respect. Nobody's trying to "abolish" binary gender. Nobody's denying you your preferences. The left isn't trying to force gay men to have "vaginasex" (thanks for that nugget, curious2!). In the West, cis gay men are in a strong position right now, both economically and socially. Seriously, look at the wellbeing data for various LGBT subgroups. It's not the lesbians or the trans folx who come out on top. It's good to step out of one's head sometimes.

@68 BiDanFan: I wanted to take Anthony Michael Hall and Ally Sheedy and hug them. Bless John Kapelos (Carl, the Shermer High School custodian) and Judd Nelson as bad boy John Bender for putting Richard Vernon (Paul Gleason) in his place. My favorite Bender line:
Vernon: Any questions?
Bender: Yeah. I've got a question. Does Barry Manilow know you raid his wardrobe?
Carl should have pressed Vernon harder for more hush money when he caught Dick-o snooping around downstairs in the confidential file archives. I get satisfaction in knowing that Paul Gleason also co-starred as Clarence Beeks in the Dan Ackroyd / Eddie Murphy / Jamie Lee Curtis comedy, Trading Places (1983). Hey, Vernon--where's your gorilla suit? lol
and
@69 BiDanFan: WA-HOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! Congratulations on scoring this week's luscious Lucky @69 Award honors! Savor the delectably envied riches and bask in the glory. :)

Venn @80, I take it we correctly interpreted your term "gay heterosex" then. Your communication might be more effective if you used "words you never use." Because the words "gay heterosex" sound extremely transphobic to me. So, sure, most alternatives to those would be an improvement.

Thank you for clarifying your position on gay trans men. I wasn't "bashing" you, just pointing out that that phrase and the attitude it implies are problematic. (I didn't take Lost Margarita's lack of enthusiasm for my proposed terms as "bashing" me.) I reckon I did improve upon your term by suggesting the already-in-use PIV, which your delicate self could refrain from un-abbreviating, if you have such an aversion to calling body parts what they're called (while at the same time thinking those body parts need to be talked about). I am aware of, and hold the appropriate contempt for, the "super straight" movement, and if it exists a corresponding "super gay" movement, which, among lesbians, is just known as being a TERF. Thank you for clarifying that Dan is himself not open to trans men but admires those who are (I feel similarly toward vegans -- they are more ethical than I am). For the record, I personally am fine with ruling people out due to genitalia or any other body preference, or any reason at all, though the shallower the reason the smaller your dating pool, and the bigger an arse you look. That's why my suggestion to non-op trans folks is to seek bisexuals as partners. I also see no reason why a monosexual who ruled out non-op trans folks due to their genitalia would rule out a trans person who had had bottom surgery. Well, I do see a reason -- transphobia.

Also, one of our regulars revealed she doesn't enjoy cunnilingus and wasn't "bullied off the board," and the much missed CalliopeMuse was a virgin and nobody gave her a hard time.

Margarita @82, amen. Venn, you've had some awful stuff happen to you, which I'm sure you've only revealed a fraction of to this board, but you definitely seem to have internalised that and see it everywhere. Bi/pan/trans awareness and inclusiveness is intended to help those in these categories better understand and communicate about themselves, it's not intended to erase cis monosexuals. But, I've said that repeatedly and it's falling on deaf ears.

Griz @83, thank you! :)

Delta @77

I guess you meant me @73, not curious :) Yeah, as far as I know "shibari" literally means "to tie", and just refers to the physical act of tying, whereas "kinbaku" is a more amorphous term for Japanese bondage, and refers to the emotional and erotic aspects of a rope scene as well.

I follow a couple of rope bondage photographers on Fetlife, whose work I think you might enjoy. Both are based in Germany, and photograph men in rope almost exclusively:

Reraizure:
https://www.instagram.com/art_by_reraizure/

Soft bondage:
https://www.instagram.com/soft_bondage/

BiDanFan @84: Re. people being "bullied off the board," to be fair, there is an element of that here (try mentioning DD/lg) and so I wrote the SlogBlocker add-on.

Margarita @85: "Kinbaku" means "tight binding". As you said, "shibari" means “to tie”. It originated from hojujutsu, a form of military bondage wherein each tie indicated the prisoner’s rank.

Ms Fan - I do not include you among the legion of those whose default position on anything I say is that it's almost certainly bad.

I would dearly like to be wrong, but you don't listen to as much LeftTube as I do. Among this week' gems were a Christian trans woman's scriptural interpretation of Biblical prohibitions of homosexual acts as "God's way of being super nice to gay people" by saving us from disease worse than death (shades of Christopher Lloyd and Eileen Brennan in Clue). There's also been an uptick lately in the "Nobody is 100% straight," line that clearly implies nobody is 100% gay.

You know I've advocated for some time now for an amicable divorce of at least the G from the LBTQ+ on the grounds of incompatible and often conflicting aims. To a point, I can entirely back a prominent version I hear of a view of trans liberation - for trans people to have full autonomy and support for any alterations they wish - or don't wish - to make for their own sense of well-being, and for all such choices to be appreciated and supported as totally valid. Sounds perfectly lovely. It's the expectation that all choices will be equally appealing in an ideal future that is gaining momentum almost into an implication that trans liberation entails universal bi/pansexuality. Now it's totally right and proper for trans people who want such a future to push for it. This is where I adopt a variant on Mr Savage's Moustache Maxim (Mr Miller has the agency to grow facial hair whenever he pleases, whereupon Mr Savage will use his agency to keep his person from coming into contact with said facial hair). Now, if we were in full theoretical mode, I could come up with a useful distinction between those who are willing (like Mr Savage's podcast guest of some months ago who is gay and trans men are his type if they have attained a certain level of transition) to be GGG about doing certain things and those who genuinely don't have any preference, but I'll leave it there rather than throw a new term at the wall.

Skr Curious - Trust me; I've seen it happen elsewhere. People would not be able to help themselves.

@10: Except for pathological grandiose narcissists (e.g. the previous US President - and the current one, for that matter), who are psychologically incapable of self-doubt or self-criticism. While there certainly are people who have pathological degrees of social anxiety or self-doubt, some degree is indeed normal, and also keep in mind that there is something very, very wrong with people who DON'T ever feel those things, as enviable as that may sometimes feel.

Fubar @86, I wouldn't say it "originated" from hojojutsu. There is a stylistic connection between shibari and hojojutsu, it's true, but there's so much historically false gumph about shibari being an "ancient Japanese art form, practiced for a thousand years", I feel like we need to be clearer about what that connection actually is. Japanese rope bondage as a cultural phenomenon started in late 1940s, via cheap adult mags like Kitan Club (although there are earlier references, such as the prints and photographs of "the father of kinbaku" Seiu Ito). Some of the dirty pictures in Kitan Club et al did borrow visually and technically from hojojutsu, but that's about it. And yeah, I know what "kinbaku" means literally. I thought it was useful to elaborate on the concept :)

Ms Erica - The first use I recall of those terms or near neighbours occurred nearly a decade ago during a battle of mammoth proportions when one side suggested that a lesbian who wouldn't [blank] her partner's [AMAB part] should drop the L label and present under a V label.

There has lately been an increase in influence and popularity of gynoromantic pansexuals who have no reticence about considering themselves capable of speaking for "the entire community". That they should be more visible and popular seems quite appropriate, but they can't speak for me.

Mr. venn@
"the logistics of my particularities...I'd be bullied off the board"

You could have simply not specified the logistical particulars.

I find it rather troubling for a friend to specify that they're not going to tell me X, but if I knew X I'd hate them. Am I intended to take their word for it and already hate them on spec? At best, such a situation engenders a difficult to avoid uneasiness. I am personally far more comfortable not assuming the worst from details not offered, my friend.

Venn @87, I wonder why you listen to such things when they only wind you up?

The "everyone's a little bit bisexual" theory can be chalked up to newly out naiveté rather than homo (or for that matter hetero)phobia. I was guilty of it when I first discovered that bisexuality was a thing, and that it explained why I had crushes on boys and girls. Once such enlightened, it seemed logical, to my mind, that the potential for attraction to multiple genders must reside in us all. I was cured of this notion, oddly enough, when I asked myself if this applied to my 100% gay best friend, and realised of course it didn't, it was only projection on my part. That while many people, many more than I'd realised (aka many more than just me), were in fact attracted to not just one gender, "everybody" was an overstatement. I revised my view to, "those people who aren't a little bit bisexual are missing out." :)

If there has been an "uptick" in this misconception lately, that doesn't make it any more true. Nor does any individual's misguided belief threaten your existence. Just laugh them off and tell yourself, they will learn.

BDF@93
Good points. If there's an uptick in that misconception lately, it could be a /good/ sign that people have moved up to that "naiveté" stage from (er) whatever stage comes before that (obliviousness?).

If there's a spectrum from 0% to 100% of something, there's no reason people all have to be in between, some number could be at 0% and another number could be at 100%. Hell, /everyone/ could be as has been assumed to be for too long in the tradition of bisexual erasure. A lack of erasure need not threaten those at 0% and 100%.

@24. Bi. People titter at me because, to their eyes, I have features of both a man or a woman, or am ambiguous between being a man or a woman. There are lots of times when I want no part of that--when I want to be done with that shit--and it wouldn't entirely matter who was tittering, middle-schoolers or a new work contact or someone in a position of almost any power over me, even to do with something as simple as mailing a parcel or expediting a secretarial task. How to present myself, and how much effort to present myself so that I avoid presenting myself too unguardedly, as it were, is a constant effort and state of awareness.

If the lw was just teaching his ordinary lessons over Zoom (rather than teaching what I would understand, differently, as a 'Zoom class'), then I do not understand Dan's advice. This thing with the tab is an embarrassing but trivial fuck-up, and not the guy's 'in' to outing himself to his school management, colleagues or students.

@60. venn. As if the Democratic Party is subservient to the working class! Ask Ted Cruz or Josh Hawley which class interest Republicanism serves....

I believe that the emergence of trans as something that can be identified, theorised, talked about, represents an occasion to return to what we mean by 'queer'. But this does not take the form of saying that cisgay men are something other than cisgay men--that their 'true' or 'better' sexual preferences are something other than they've presented them as being, or that their culture needs to be penetrated from the outside and remade, like some sort of Second or Third Reconstruction. It only means that we need to recognise other elements and identities in the ragbag, or rather the political coalition, of queerness.

@70. Bi. All better than saying that a NB person reverts to the gender of their birth by virtue of the gender of the people to whom they are attracted.

Lost Margarita @85 yes, I lost count! Thank you for these links! Beautiful in many ways! The emotional aspects of BDSM are the most interesting to witness in person in a scene (when not directly participating but invited to watch), so layered and complex and intense including the aftercare, sometimes but rarely captured in photography or mainstream porn (HUMP! films and maker-made non-commercial erotic videos, often do capture this).

I'm way tardy to the party this week!

Lost Margarita @somewhere upthread, I love your descriptions of the types of rope play with which you are familiar. You make it sound very beautiful and I can certainly see its aesthetic and emotional appeal. I also think it shows how certain kinds of BDSM can be a Big Ask for the non-kinky partner, especially if they're being asked to attain a certain level of expertise to make it happen safely and pleasurably. Add "act genuinely 'into it' or it doesn't work for me" on top of it, and it just seems like an awful lot of pressure, even for someone who's GGG and willing to get creative to please their partner.

Mr. Venn @91 - I think people shouldn't get pestered over their particular sexual proclivities. A straight man may not enjoy PIV and that doesn't mean he's not entitled to call himself a straight man. He can just be a straight man who doesn't like PIV.

I do think it's convenient to have a term like "androsexual" for someone like me who likes dating people who present as masculine. (That doesn't mean I want muscle-men; I prefer nerds, but the kind of nerd on the masculine side of androgynous.) I like that the term doesn't pin down whether the person was AMAB or AFAB, and I like that the term doesn't pin down me by gender. I'm definitely more comfortable with gynosexual and androsexual than with terms that referenced body parts.

Hunsky?