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800 Maynard Ave S, Suite 200, Seattle, WA 98134
800 Maynard Ave S, Suite 200, Seattle, WA 98134
Dominic, how about something similar to what you did with initiative 75? Make the SPD limit their prostitution investigations to allegations of minors and unwilling prostitutes? Maybe establish some criteria of police priorities?
This all just seems like a horrible waste in light of other cuts the city is making, yet we waste our $ on this crap.
Second, way to go Seattle, we just spent $15g in man hours for the raid alone, plus the money soon to be spent on the up coming persecution, oops, I mean prosecution of this case, plus god knows how many $150/hr. rubs without tugs (what does a lady in this kind of place think when a man they've never seen before comes in and turns down a handjob?). What does everyone think, at least $200g for this mess? Yet it is too expensive for the city parks dept. to pick up the trash and we have to lay teachers off, among other cuts! Oh, and there were how many minors and/or exploited foreigners working there?
Dominic, how about something similar to I-75, establishing some standards as to where and when it is OK for the police to investigate prostitution, or better yet, something to help the SPD figure out what their priorities SHOULD be.
This was nothing but a gratuitous show of force on the part of the SPD, in an election year at that. Is that rotten fish I smell. I don't think that smell is coming from a priestess' vagina, I think that smell is coming from an campaign headquarters and the SPD.
Way to go Seattle!
Say on average 15 women averaged 4 appointments a day. $9,000.00 a day - $270,000 per month - 3.2 million dollars a year in gross revenue (very conservative estimate). One of the other news organizations reported $300,000 reported gross revenue for the business. Granted it's gross and not net revenue but that comes out to a massive under reporting of taxable income. It looks like the $15,000 spent on the raid was a drop in the bucket.
Of the $150 session fee, the house got $40. From that, it paid rent, utilities, laundry & cleaning services, advertising and other overhead.
Of the $3.2m you calculated, the house would have gotten about $850k. If rent on the three locations was $20k/month (I've heard a rent figure for the largest location; if it's accurate, 20k is in the right ballpark), that leaves about 600k to account for. Half of that in other expenses is on the higher end of my believability.
Your "very conservative estimate" is a joke. You're assuming every girl saw 4 people a day, frankly, many of them would have "retired" and moved on to a real life long ago if that were the case. I'd guess cut your speculation in half, and then based on Six's numbers, it wouldn't appear she was hiding all that much, if anything at all.
You need to read what I wrote over again. I made the distinction of Net vs. Gross Revenue.
In the State of Washington and City of Seattle you pay tax on your gross revenue. It may seem unfair but that's how it works for business owners here. You don't get to take deductions on your City and State Business and Occupations Tax.
As far as Federal Tax you would be correct.
There is no way that 60 women working at $150 an hour generated a gross revenue of $300,000.00 in a year. That would mean they had almost no business.
Check out the Washington State Department of Revenue. Rainbow Love would fall under the Services category. It's taxed at 1.5% of gross revenue. (this is state only) 1.5% of 3.2 million is $48,000.00 in State B&O tax. 1.5% of 300,000 is $4,500.00. Your looking at massive tax evasion on the State level and that doesn't include City B&O Tax or Federal Income Tax.
Quote:
"Your "very conservative estimate" is a joke. You're assuming every girl saw 4 people a day"
I made the estimate based on 15 women working. There were 60 employed at Sacred Temple. The estimate was based on 25% of the women employed actually working at all.
Just based on some comments I've seen elsewhere, there was mild in-fighting over the number of practicioners there at one time - ie, not enough customers for all of them. My point is, especially in this economy, they did not have anywhere near 60 people a day walking in. On a good day, they may have had 30. Again, guesses on my part, but much more accurate.
rake in the money!
ex-Goddess-goingIndie!
All of a sudden many Seattle residents are asking who is in charge? Do we need a new Mayor? YES! Do we need a new Chief of Police? - YES! Do we need to be more fiscally responsible here? - YES. Does Channel 4 news need a new reporter with brains? YES!
"To ????..actually every girl did not get 4 appts. a day...some got none....some 1 and some got more."
In the example I used it showed 15 out of 60 women working, with 45 having no appointments at all. I used fifteen figuring it was a low number and assuming many more than 15 women made a living at the various Temples. I could change the number to 30 women at all the Temples combined having two appointments a day and still come up with the same gross revenue figure of 3.2 million per year. In this example 50% of the women working would have zero appointments and zero income.
Hopefully the math is starting to make sense.
Quite: stlurk
"Just based on some comments I've seen elsewhere, there was mild in-fighting over the number of practicioners there at one time - ie, not enough customers for all of them. My point is, especially in this economy, they did not have anywhere near 60 people a day walking in. On a good day, they may have had 30. Again, guesses on my part, but much more accurate."
Remember the gross revenue figure is from Seattle, Kirkland and Greenwood combined. That's an average of 20 a day per venue. Pretty low but lets use your number.
30 customers at all the venues combined is 10 per venue per day. These ladies would have starved but I'll humor you.
Gross Revenue at 30 customers per day.
$4500 per day - $31,500.00 per week - $126,000.00 per month -$1.5 million per year
Washington State Business and Occupations Tax alone would be 1.5% x $1.5 million.
$22,500.00 per year as apposed to $300,000.00 x 1.5% = $4500.00
You still have State Tax Evasion to the tune of $18,000.00. That does not include City or Federal Tax.
There is also another matter of money laundering. Anything purchased with money from an illegal enterprise is money laundering. You can do math all day and you are still looking at 2 or 3 felony counts. Promoting, Money Laundering and Tax Evasion.
"All of a sudden many Seattle residents are asking who is in charge? Do we need a new Mayor? YES! Do we need a new Chief of Police? - YES! Do we need to be more fiscally responsible here? - YES. Does Channel 4 news need a new reporter with brains? YES!"
It's all been revealed.
First of all the police don't make these decisions. It comes from the King County Prosecutors office. His name is Dan Satterburg and it was reported that his Deputy Prosecutor was in charge of the matter.
As far as the number of officers the more police the better. Nobody gets hurt and it's very difficult for the police to lie. They have no idea if someone has a gun.
The one woman that was grabbed and forced to the ground had run out of the building and was climbing a fence.
As far as fiscal responsibility by the time they are done ceasing assets purchased with illegally earned money and collecting back taxes this operation will bring in far more than $15,000.00
Having first hand knowledge of this bizzz, I can tell you budget estimators that you are dreaming...I'm sure Rainbow and her ladies would be estatic over the proposed income numbers mentioned herein.....get real dudes...it aint that
great of a business. Some of the ladies would spend 12 hour days several days in a week with "zero" appointments. This bizzzz doesn't provide a minimum wage for hours spent sitting around waiting for a client. Be that as it may....there is nothing wrong with providing the level of services outlined at the temple(s)....it aint prostitution if there aint any sex beteeen two people in exchanging for money...simple fact. Crime? perhaps in the eyes of the weak minded...but none of these ladies are under age and none of them are working at this bizzz by force or under the control of a pimp....so get over it....find some meaningful way to spend our tax dollars in rounding up real crime and dangerous people
"On a good day, they may have had 30."
If we lower the number to 30 that's still a gross revenue of 1.5 million per year. Remember this number is for all three venue's combined. That's only 10 appointments per venue per day.
"Be that as it may....there is nothing wrong with providing the level of services outlined at the temple(s)....it aint prostitution if there aint any sex beteeen two people in exchanging for money...simple fact."
RCW 9A.88.030
Prostitution.
(1) A person is guilty of prostitution if such person engages or agrees or offers to engage in sexual conduct with another person in return for a fee.
The definition is any sexual contact.
If you read the article they have 3 undercover police officers that paid the $150 and were offered (possibly even received) full release hand jobs. You've also got one employee at a private detective agency that paid $150 and did receive a hand job.
In addition you've got an undercover female officer applying for a job and being told she had to give hand jobs. And don't forget the disgruntled receptionist that was told to give a hand job.
There are a ton of reviews on various web sites including national and international sites describing the services down to the smallest detail.
When they are done with the investigation (months from now) they will have a massive witness list that will agree to testify rather than be charged.
You've got the owner confessing in this article that sexual release is part of her method of healing.
The "no sex for money" argument is off the table even by the owners definition of services offered.
Swat to arrest a few women in skirts with , oh , yes, dangerous weapons of - massage oil. you're so right, oil of olay in the eye may blind the office for a few minutes, especially after a one year long investigation! I would have thought they would have known each woman by first name and choice of coffee, decaf or regular. Hell I do and I did it in 2 weeks!
SWAT, SPECIAL WEAPONS AND TACTICS. Automatic firing weapons with banana clips! sTEEL METAL JACKET ROUNDS. Hum, still sounds like WAY TOO MUCH, OVER THE TOP -- TAX DOLLAR WASTE. Police chief determines effective use of personnel. NO one else. HE did not do his job. He must be booted OUT!
SAME FOR THE DA! VOTERS NEED TO CLEAN HOUSE NOW!
I still think you're way off. First, as you are seeing from other posters, some of these ladies were lucky to get 1-2 per day. The 60 workers you keep referencing - some of these people only worked one or two evenings a week in hopes of extra side money. They didn't starve because they either had other income, maybe family help, student aid, whatever. I don't know that for a fact, but that's usually how it goes. More importantly, you can read from the Seattle Times story that the house only got $40 per visit, so 30 customers per day is only $1200 a day, not $4500. Your dream that this lady was hiding hundreds of thousands of dollars is just not adding up.
"there is nothing wrong with providing the level of services outlined at the temple(s)....it aint prostitution if there aint any sex beteeen two people in exchanging for money...simple fact."
RCW 9A.88.030
Prostitution.
(1) A person is guilty of prostitution if such person engages or agrees or offers to engage in sexual conduct with another person in return for a fee.
The definition is any sexual contact.
If you read the article they have 3 undercover police officers that paid the $150 and were offered (possibly even received) full release hand jobs. You've also got one employee at a private detective agency that paid $150 and did receive a hand job.
In addition you've got an undercover female officer applying for a job and being told she had to give hand jobs. And don't forget the disgruntled receptionist that was told to give a hand job.
There are a ton of reviews on various web sites including national and international sites describing the services down to the smallest detail.
When they are done with the investigation (months from now) they will have a massive witness list that will have people agreeing to testify rather than be charged.
You've got the owner confessing in this article that sexual release is part of her method of healing.
The "no sex for money" argument is off the table even by the owners definition of services offered.
The services offered and received were indeed prostitution as defined by Washington State Law.
"More importantly, you can read from the Seattle Times story that the house only got $40 per visit, so 30 customers per day is only $1200 a day, not $4500."
You don't understand. The state tax law is that the owner has to pay state Business and Occupation Tax on every penny that comes in the door. Not just what they keep.
That's the tax law in Washington State.
Anywho...
"And what if she is not a plotting profiteer, but a cherubic, 43-year-old redhead who speaks in a peppy Scottish accent and insists that the occasional "release" is simply part of her method of spiritual healing?"
If you believe that I have a bridge in Brooklyn I want to sell you. She knew exactly what she was doing. Spiritual healing my hairy ass.
I agree, however, that the raid was a waste of resources.
If anything, your tax debate likens to the debate on legalizing Marijuana. If it was legal, I think most people would be willing to pay taxes on it. Because we have archaic puritan laws on the books, taxes aren't collected, and instead taxes are wasted enforcing laws on people who really aren't doing anything wrong.
I know it's a crime, but if you think against the law always means something's wrong, you've got some deep thinking to do.
These ladies provide a safe form of release, voluntarily, to people who are unable to find the same in the dating world. I don't see how it's ok to pay a therapist to be your friend and talk to you when you're down, but it's not ok to pay a "release agent" when you're feeling lonely and need physical emotion.
However, regardless of whether you are mad about the raid or mad about unpaid taxes, your problem is not with the the people involved (SPD or Rainbow Love). Your problem is the law.
The laws prohibiting prostitution are just are stupid as the laws prohibiting marijuana. They hurt the local economy and reduce tax revenues. They promote unsafe sexual behavior. They encourage exploitation of prostitutes. They promote violence because the civil justice system is not available to prostitutes.
It's time to take a look at adopting something similar to relevant Nevada state law on the matter.
Once safe prostitution is legalized, the responsible members of the profession will even help the SPD root out the irresponsible members.
However, regardless of whether you are mad about the raid or mad about unpaid taxes, your problem is not with the the people involved (SPD or Rainbow Love). Your problem is the law.
The laws prohibiting prostitution are just are stupid as the laws prohibiting marijuana. They hurt the local economy and reduce tax revenues. They promote unsafe sexual behavior. They encourage exploitation of prostitutes. They promote violence because the civil justice system is not available to prostitutes.
It's time to take a look at adopting something similar to relevant Nevada state law on the matter.
Once safe prostitution is legalized, the responsible members of the profession will even help the SPD root out the irresponsible members.
Times article on "Temple" raid. Take note, ladies. Big = busted in the sex industry. Wish that wasn't true, but...
4:11 PM May 23rd from web
If you believe that I have a bridge in Brooklyn I want to sell you. She knew exactly what she was doing. Spiritual healing my hairy ass.
26, you're pretty right on with these comments. The spiritual angle does come off as an attempt to skirt the law, a preparation to play the "religious freedom" card in court for the inevitable. However, if it were legal it would probably still be their marketing campaign, because, well, apparently there is a market of horny guys with (understandable) hippie girl fantasies that need the illusion of doing something spiritual when they spooge. Hell, if I was gonna pay, I think I would rather go to this sort of place than some high heel wearing bimbo who looks like the chicks in rap video's.
Sort of. Until we have a fully-staffed and funded police force, our police must make decisions about which crimes to pursue and which to let slide. They have to prioritize. And this time, they prioritized something relatively harmless. 100 officers were involved. How many were on the case a couple days later when two people were stabbed nearby? Oh, it was 2:00 a.m. and there are only so many officers available? It seems that we had a surplus of officers on the day Sacred Temple was raided.
Monogamy for many of us us is a struggle. This place allowed one to color outside the lines a bit, but without emotional unfaithfulness, excessive time expended, disease risk, or costs that damage your family. Some may find this sleazy, I find it a reasonable compromise.
As I walk to my office downtown, I pass every day through an open air drug market on Pike Street, manned by criminals. Violent assault is a regular event in Belltown. Walk through Occidental Square after dark? No fucking way! Gunfire is an everyday experience in parts of our fair city. In most of the city, women are not safe out walking after dark. Is busting this place an appropriate use of city and county law enforcemant resources? My answer will be reflected in my political campaign donations and votes.
Other than me, of course.
Maybe buzzkill can estimate what the taxes per ounce of jizz should have been.
and yes, i do support legal prostitution. just part of the territory in the underground economy!!!
and Yes Rainbow paid her tax'......and yes She paid her RENT,and yes She treated every Goddess with Respect!!!!!...
and NO...WE all DIDN't bring home WADS of Money!...Get A
Life...MAYBE...You should of came to the TEMPLE!...WOAHHH!
Man its pretty sad You were sitting there to reply to every Comment!....that I"M sure Do not even know How many appt.
there WERE!....YOU ARE A BUZZKILL!
I'm going to be attending a convention in Seattle this summer -- a place I hadn't been since childhood. Between paid work and a charity for which I volunteer, I've attended conventions, conferences, meetings, workshops and the like in 14 states over the past five years. I had been looking forward to seeing Seattle again. Now I'd be happier if the convention were in any of those other states - even dreary Delaware, which at least has Philly nearby.
I know, I went there many times a few years ago and I was utterly amazed that such a place could exist, and there is no other like that I know of.
I paid my $150 gratefully, having tried the escort thing in a hotel room, which left me feeling guilty and concerned about disease. I paid $150 for the loving companionship of a women, something I was not very familiar with despite having been married a few times. I paid $150 for the privilege of having someone touch me without being interested in me having sex with them, or marrying them, or having a child with them, or any other of a dozen reasons people usually touch each other.
I paid for companionship and touch. It was an intensely spiritual thing, and I know as I am an ordained minister. It was a highly arousing thing, and I know as I am a heterosexual male.
I did not pay for sex and none was offered. I suppose there were times when I knew the practitioner might go further than the touch, however, I did not go there and that would have been a consensual arrangement which I am SURE is not illegal or I would have been jailed many times, many years ago.
Oh, I had an occasional orgasm. How could I not? The sessions were very arousing and triggered all kinds of libidinal juices.
But I never paid for any sex, of any kind, nor did I expect an orgasmic response, nor was I promised, nor was it even hinted at.
The last time I researched the law, as I was a safe home operator and a domestic violence volunteer for many years, prostitution is a sex for money agreement. There was no such agreement in my business with the Sacred Temple.
I am confused, what is all the talk about legalizing prostitution in reference to this case? There was no prostitution involved.
May I repeat myself? Prostitution is NOT what was going on in the Sacred Temple.
I feel that decriminalizing prostitution is in the best interests of everybody, especially the prostitutes and essential to allowing adults the right to their own bodies.
I also believe true massage therapists have a right to not be sexually harassed by people who are confused about the profession thanks to people like this who misuse the title.
Rainbow is a very kind woman who treated me with kindness and made me feel welcome. That's more than I can say for other women who make men feel like they owe them something or that a guy has to jump through flaming hoops or stand in constant judgment. I don't wear the right brand of shoes or maybe my job isn't hip enough or maybe my car isn't cool this week. Maybe I don't have a car! Whatever secret rules are used to determine if I'm a valid human being. I just don't measure up and never will.
It was nice to be able to go to a nice, comfortable place and be treated like somebody who mattered by a sweet and pleasant lady, if only for an hour. That was all I had to hope for most times. People need to be touched, they need a little kindness. I'd rather go there than some rundown Aurora motel with some herpes factory.
Human kindness shouldn't have a price tag on it anyway but it does. If you think it doesn't you're a fool. Go to "The Parlor" over in Bellevue some weekend and think some woman will give you the time of day if your projected net worth isn't up to par.
Whether you pay up front or you go by the installment plan (i.e. dating & marriage) you still pay. This is at least a far more honest exchange.
Today 14:12:16
Gymbow
ST back open.
Yup, called today and three ladies working. Ad is on backpages.
Same location on Eastlake.
Too cool...
GYMBOW
I'm with rotten666. Well said.
What a waste of resources! That sounds like the 300-against-2-guns-cocked-'n-loaded scenario out of Thelma & Louise!
C'MON!
Did the SPD celebrate afterwards at Krispy Kreme?
Half the laws regarding the sex industry should not be laws at all. It is a complete waste of time to try and uphold these minute details. The laws regarding the sex industry in Seattle are outdated.
If you are appalled by how much money they have spent on this raid, there are other places that have been under investigation for years. YEARS.
The cops that conduct these investigations make almost six figures (public record) to spend tax payer money on 'services rendered'.
"It's obvious Washington lawmakers and Seattle cops hate women. "
Interesting theory considering Washington State has a female Governor and two female United States Senators.
The police don't make decisions to execute a raid like this. It came from the King County Prosecutors office. The warrant to go ahead with the raid was signed by a Judge.
The prostitution laws came into existence in the early 1900's (1910) almost at exactly the same time women won the right to vote. By an overwhelming majority it's women that want prostitution to remain illegal.
There is no political will to legalize prostitution in the state of Washington. If you want you can always start a petition to get it on the ballot. Keep in mind everyone in the state would be voting on it since it's a state law that makes prostitution illegal.
Either way you must have skipped civics class since you appear to have no idea how laws are made or enforced.
Your attitude and disrespect are more likely the reason you have to pay for it.
this is wrong, you can read it in comments here, there is plenty of will.
if anybody, any group wants to start an initiative, I will sign it. keeping prostitution laws on the books creates a black market, and the black market for prostitution is where human trafficking takes place. it works in Nevada, it works in Amsterdam, and it could work here.
this is wrong, you can read it in comments here, there is plenty of will.
if anybody, any group wants to start an initiative, I will sign it. keeping prostitution laws on the books creates a black market, and the black market for prostitution is where human trafficking takes place. legal prostitution works in Nevada, in Amsterdam, and in plenty of other civilized places. it could work here too.
"this is wrong, you can read it in comments here, there is plenty of will."
I didn't say there were no people for legalizing prostitution. "Political will" means there are no lawmakers who are going to introduce a bill that legalizes prostitution. As far as judging by the posts here there are 60 posts and several of them are from the same people. I wouldn't call that anywhere near the numbers you would need to get it on a ballot much less actually vote for it.
There are a little over 3.5 million registered voters in Washington State. The numbers aka political will to legalize just aren't there.
Vernon Quote:
"if anybody, any group wants to start an initiative"
That's another problem. It always has to be someone else who starts the ball rolling. The people claiming that it would garner enough signatures never do anything about it. Anyone can start the ball rolling but nobody ever does.
There has never been a petition to legalize prostitution circulating. They've polled the question and it would be overwhelmingly defeated.
The writer of this article should probably be fined and jailed too... haha
Yes, any excuse to send in the swat team. This sort of abuse has really escalated under the neo-cons. Let's hope Obama's administration hearkens to the ACLU, who are lobbying for the restoration of pre-911 civil liberties and an end to these excessive and dangerous 'police (behaving more like soldiers) responses'.
It's totally irrational. A real no-brainer. And innocent people (and some police) are getting killed. In fact, there's a disturbing trend amongst bored teenagers now, called 'phone phreaking' or 'swatting', where they call the police with a fake report of a murder, hostage crises or meth lab or the like, and then the swat team storms some poor random family at 3am - and it's all based on the word of a prank caller.
In any case, we should Not be trying to legislate private morality! Good god, have we not learned anything in the eons since we crawled out of the mud? Making alleged contact between-consenting-adults illegal just doesn't work - Duh!
If any of you know these people, please relay my sympathies, and my hope for a good outcome to all of this - for them.
Lots of people practice ritual sex, and lots of people still consider prostitution a sacred art.
I do know some of these girls, and they are really good people. Such a waste that the police are ruining their lives with this bullshit instead of doing their actual jobs: serving and protecting.
A victimless crime is not a crime at all.
It's illegal. It's that simple.
My body belongs to me,and no one else.
I have sovereign right to decide what I put into my body, what I take out of my body, who I have sex with, who I live with, marry, love, and etc.
I do not recognize the authority of any person or group of people who says otherwise.
If I want to charge money for a handjob, THAT IS MY FUCKING BUSINESS.(literally)
If it becomes illegal to eat, I am going to break the law.
No form of consensual sex is a crime.
THE LAW IS WRONG.
Even if the operation took in $5 million a year, B&O Tax would be $2355 per year. Sales tax would be much higher, and depening onhow you pay to who, either the temple or the 'priestess' would have to collect the tax and forward it to the state ...
"Buzzkill's wrong about B&O Tax in several ways."
Sorry but you're wrong. The Temple's business license is available online. They are listed as Service and Other Activities and were suppose to be paying 1.5% of gross income.
Using your number of $5 million B&O tax would be 1.5% of 5 million = $75,000.00
It appears they are open for business again according to their website. Maybe it was just a big misunderstanding.
Service and Other Activities B&O Tax Classification
Income from performing personal and professional services and activities not otherwise classified in Chapter 82.04 RCW is subject to B&O tax under the Service and Other Activities classification. Many of the services typically performed by beauty operators are taxable under the Service and Other Activities classification.
What activities are taxable under Service and Other Activities B&O tax?
Income derived from providing haircuts, coloring, permanents, manicures, massage therapy, booth/chair rental, etc., is taxable under the Service and Other Activities classification.
As far as being consenting adults,
the wives, husbands and monogamous partners of the clients secretively visiting the establishment were not consenting adults. And as far as safe sexual practices: Speaking from the direct confession of my ex-husband, the 'tug' is not the only thing one can get at the sacred temple by a long shot. He described several other sexual services he himself received, including being offered blow jobs. Last I checked, oral sex isn't in the category of 'safe'. My marriage to him ended because after a counselor told him he needed to disclose everything in order to hope to save his marriage, he could not face doing that. From that I can only conclude that there was something more he was involved in there that he just couldn't bring himself to reveal.
Also, during that time (it was about 4 years ago), I visited two on-line chat sites where clients of the sacred temple discussed there experiences there and rated the practitioners. Most were men, and they sounded so sadly insecure with their bragging and flaunting. Who in the world needs to brag about a sex exploit they had to pay for? How painful. Anyway, it was easy to verify the names of the women they discussed as matching the names and photos of the practitioners on the temple's site. On the chat sites, the clients talked about numerous things besides hand jobs. Interestingly, there is a whole coded vernacular used to refer to the different sexual services. I remember a few: The Russian, and the Surfboard or Surfing.
I also found one of the female practitioners listed on another prostitution site. Same picture and same name. Under her stats was listed her services offered and even whether or not she was 'shaved' - she was.
I reported the sacred temple as well as these chat sites to the Vice Squad, and I am not disappointed that the place finally got exposed. Of course I know it probably won't do much.
I know it's 'the oldest profession in the book', but the age of a thing doesn't make it harmless. Most of the human maladies so familiar to us are quite ancient.
As far as being consenting adults,
the wives, husbands and monogamous partners of the clients secretively visiting the establishment were not consenting adults. And as far as safe sexual practices: Speaking from the direct confession of my ex-husband, the 'tug' is not the only thing one can get at the sacred temple by a long shot. He described several other sexual services he himself received, including being offered blow jobs. Last I checked, oral sex isn't in the category of 'safe'. My marriage to him ended because after a counselor told him he needed to disclose everything in order to hope to save his marriage, he could not face doing that. From that I can only conclude that there was something more he was involved in there that he just couldn't bring himself to reveal.
Also, during that time (it was about 4 years ago), I visited two on-line chat sites where clients of the sacred temple discussed there experiences there and rated the practitioners. Most were men, and they sounded so sadly insecure with their bragging and flaunting. Who in the world needs to brag about a sex exploit they had to pay for? How painful. Anyway, it was easy to verify the names of the women they discussed as matching the names and photos of the practitioners on the temple's site. On the chat sites, the clients talked about numerous things besides hand jobs. Interestingly, there is a whole coded vernacular used to refer to the different sexual services. I remember a few: The Russian, and the Surfboard or Surfing.
I also found one of the female practitioners listed on another prostitution site. Same picture and same name. Under her stats was listed her services offered and even whether or not she was 'shaved' - she was.
I reported the sacred temple as well as these chat sites to the Vice Squad, and I am not disappointed that the place finally got exposed. Of course I know it probably won't do much.
I know it's 'the oldest profession in the book', but the age of a thing doesn't make it harmless. Most of the human maladies so familiar to us are quite ancient.
Go ahead, do something about neighbors complaints, do something if there is reasonable suspicion of exploited minors, immigrants, and other unwilling people, but this was a waste of so many's time and comes off as nothing more than a gratuitous display of force while more important problems are going unaddressed. Hell, even the shitty driving here should be a bigger priority.
But don't involve the police over your personal vandettas.
Hard to feel sorry for you here. I was in a seven year realationship and found out that my guy was carrying on with a co-worker for two years when I broke into his email, whom he frequently travled with, and it helped her to climb the corporate ladder (I was always looking for evidence - and eventually found it). We all create our own reality, and are equally responsible for what happens in a relationship.
Much more intimacy was happening than an accosional hour of touch therapy. . .or body work. . and he was getting it for free. I don't consider body work prositution, but at least these woman take precautions, and I would have much prefered that he had been visiting a prostitute vs. sleazy co-worker - at least the former would have taken precautions -- unlike the unpaid coworker. "I love waking up to you and hearing your heart beating on my chest". . .
Reading the words, made me go weak in the knees. I called him on his cell and told him to his S%$@ out of the house and don't ever return. He didn't
Once I got over the poor, poor pity me...how could he do this to me????. . I realized why it happened. Not only was he miserable, but I was miserable. I wasn't truely in love with him, and can admit that I stayed with him for security and financial reasons.
I had gained twenty pounds, had lost my zezt for life and passion. . .I was just as much to blame as he was as I realize now.
And, once we broke it off - I truely began living again. I no longer wonder about my current guy. We have total trust in each other.
At times we spend weeks apart. .and I don't wonder or bring negative feelings into the relationshop. If either of us are unhappy - it's just as much my reponsibility as his to relay it. As well, I freuently get massage therapy - deep tissue, reflexology. .from male and female alike - and so does he. It's nothing to do with something missing in our relationship - just good for our well being.
Hope you can get over this and go with flow of the universe - and meet someone who will be a positive influcence as your parter. The less restriction you put on someone the better - and you should read "down with love". .made me laugh.. .and dares to ask the questions I have been asking for years.
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Thank you for hoping for me. I am doing really well. My life got so much better after being released from an oppressive situation. It's amazing the way that new life can be born out of pain and suffering, and I'm grateful to have been given that experience. So it's ok that you don't feel sorry for me. I wouldn't ask for or need that. My post had nothing to do with that at all.
You are the second person to give me advice here. Don't you think it's at least a bit presumptive to give advice to someone about how to live their life when all you know is at best a tiny sliver of their whole story? I think you are filling in the blanks with your own story. So I think there is a very slim possibility that you would be able to know what my needs are. That could only happen if you knew me really really well - and even then, it would still be just a guess. It sounds like you followed your own advice and did well with it, and that's great. It really is.
Marriage belongs on the junk heap of human folly says Laura Kipnis. Finally a book lambasting marriage is out and written by a woman! Laura Kipnis has written a brilliant book, Hopefully men everywhere will read this.
The article from MSN’s Slate, in a piece titled “Beware the marriage trap” Meghan O’Rourke looks at the book, Against Love: A Polemic, by Laura Kipnis. The book’s message says, “matrimony is equal-opportunity oppressor.”
“Marriage, she suggests, belongs on the junk heap of human folly. It is an equal-opportunity oppressor, trapping men and women in a life of drudgery, emotional anesthesia, and a tug-of-war struggle to balance vastly different needs.
O’Rourke says THE NUMBERS seem to back up her thesis: Modern marriage doesn’t work for the majority of people. The rate of divorce has roughly doubled since the 1960s. Half of all marriages end in divorce. And as sketchy as poll data can be, a recent Rutgers University poll found that only 38 percent of married couples describe themselves as happy.”
Kipnis’ poses the essential question, why do Americans keep getting married? Why, in what seems like an age of great social freedom, would anyone willingly consent to a life of constricting monogamy?
O’Rourke states that Kipnis’ answer is that marriage is an insidious social construct, harnessed by capitalism to get us to have kids and work harder to support them.
O’Rourke believes Kipnis is dead-on about the everyday exhaustion a relationship can produce. And Kipnis has diagnosed something interesting about the public discourse of marriage. People are more than happy to talk about how unhappy their individual marriages are, but public discussion assumes that in each case there is something wrong with the marriage — not marriage itself.
Kipnis argues, our social decisions need to start reflecting the reality of declining marriage rates — not the fairy-tale “happily ever after all” version.
Even in a post-feminist age of loose social mores we are still encouraged, from the time we are children, to think of marriage as the proper goal of a well-lived life.
Kipnis’ suggests Marriage could be a form of renewable contract.
While Kipnis usefully challenges our assumptions about commitment, it’s not evident that we’d be better off in the lust-happy world she envisions, or that men and women really want the exact same sexual freedoms. O’Rourke drawing inspiration from Kipnis adds in its ideal form, marriage seems to reify all that’s best about human exchange. Most people don’t want to be alone at home with a cat, and everyone but Kipnis worries about the effects of divorce on children. “Work,” in her lexicon, is always the drudgery of self-denial, not the challenge of extending yourself beyond what you knew you could do. But we usually mean two things when we say “work”: The slog we endure purely to put food on the table, and the kind we do because we like it — are drawn to it, even.
O’Rourke surmises that while it’s certainly true that people stay in an unhappy relationship longer than they should, it’s not yet clear that monogamy is more “unnatural” than sleeping around but finding that the hum of your refrigerator is your most constant companion. And Kipnis spends scant time thinking about the fact that marriage is a hardy social institution several thousand years old, spanning many cultures — which calls into question, to say the least, whether its presence in our lives today has mostly to do with the insidious chokehold capitalism has on us.
O’Rourke is amused by Kipnis’ exaggerated polemic romp, O’Rourke says it is wittily invigorating, it may not actually be as radical as it promises to be: These days, even sitcoms reflect Kipnis’ way of thinking. There’s an old episode of Seinfeld in which Jerry and Kramer anticipate most of Kipnis’ critique of domesticity; Kramer asks Jerry if he and his girlfriend are thinking about marriage and family, and then cuts him off: “They’re prisons! Man-made prisons! You’re doin’ time! You get up in the morning — she’s there. You go to sleep at night — she’s there. It’s like you gotta ask permission to, to use the bathroom: Is it all right if I use the bathroom now?” Still, love might indeed get a better name if we were as attentive to the intellectual dishonesties of the public debate over its failings as we are to the emotional dishonesties of adulterers
Themes & Motifs: Amore: The Art of Courtly Love
Andreas Capellanus wrote the three books of his treatise The Art of Courtly Love at the request of Countess Marie of Troyes, daughter of Eleanor of Aquitaine. It supposedly portrays life at the Queen's court from 1170 to 1174. In the book Capellanus discusses the concept of courtly love and prepares to explain its "rules" very clearly so as to provide a manual or handbook on Love:
Marriage is no real excuse for not loving.
He who is jealous cannot love.
No one can be bound by a double love.
It is well known that love is always increasing or decreasing.
That which a lover takes against the will of his beloved has no relish.
Boys do not love until they reach the age of maturity.
When one lover dies, a widowhood of two years is required of the survivor.
No one should be deprived of love without the very best of reasons.
No one can love unless he is propelled by the persuasion of love.
Love is always a stranger in the home of avarice.
It is not proper to love any woman whom one would be ashamed to seek to marry.
A true lover does not desire to embrace in love anyone except his beloved.
When made public love rarely endures.
The easy attainment of love makes it of little value: difficulty of attainment makes it prized.
Every lover regularly turns pale in the presence of his beloved.
When a lover suddenly catches sight of his beloved his heart palpitates.
A new love puts an old one to flight.
Good character alone makes any man worthy of love.
If love diminishes, it quickly fails and rarely revives.
A man in love is always apprehensive.
Real jealousy always increases the feeling of love.
Jealousy increases when one suspects his beloved.
He whom the thought of love vexes eats and sleeps very little.
Every act of a lover ends in the thought of his beloved.
A true lover considers nothing good except what he thinks will please his beloved.
Love can deny nothing to love.
A lover can never have enough of the solaces of his beloved.
A slight presumption causes a lover to suspect his beloved.
A man who is vexed by too much passion usually does not love.
A true lover is constantly and without intermission possessed by the thought of his beloved.
Nothing forbids one woman being loved by two men or one man by two women.
True. I don't know your story. But I have witenssed both of my siters go through divorce & struggle -one now on her second marriage and the other on her third. I have also witnessed the negative effects it has had on their children (and vowed that I would never go there unless I didn't have to think twice) - and the positive outcomes. The negative aside from missing their fathers, was financial struggle that they went through - many times I was the fairy godmother,as well as my father, paying for the transmition that went out, back rent, buying the kids school clothes....
But the positive is. . .that they all blossemed and became very independent & stonger because of it. My sisters final marraiges were becasue they were independent - self supporting, didn't need financial support, and were truely in love with supportive men.
Even in 15th century Venice, Veronica Franco the famous courtesan & poet, unlike most woman who were forbiden - she was allowed access to libraries and learned to read and write said, "a women's greatest asset is her education and independance"
In Renaissance Venetian society, there existed a hierarchy even amongst courtesans: the cortigiana onesta, the intellectual courtesan, and the cortigiana di lume, lower-class courtesans (modern day prostitutes) who tended to live and practice their trade near the Rialto Bridge.
Veronica Franco was one of the most celebrated and revered courtesans of her time. She spent her time, much like her Asian counterpart, the geisha, learning the art of seduction, while also receiving a first-class and multi-disciplinary education. This education was rare for a woman of this time, and usually restricted to women of the upper ranks of society. So becoming a courtesan would not only grant a woman sexual/gender freedom, but it would also permit her to gain the same insight into art, literature and culture as a male counterpart.
A woman's greatest, and most hard-won asset... is an education
Sigh...just to chiming in to bust this long-standing myth. Geisha are not, and never were, prostitutes, and were/are not "learning the art of seduction."
Japan had many types of legal prostitutes, all of them officially categorized and licensed. Geisha were licensed as entertainers only, and were forbidden to sell sex. What most people think of as a geisha is actually an oiran, a special type of high-class prostitute.
Not to say that no geisha ever broke the law and sold some sex to a persistent and rich man, but it certainly was never part of the gig, even less so in the modern era.
Sigh...just to chiming in to bust this long-standing myth. Geisha are not, and never were, prostitutes, and were/are not "learning the art of seduction."
Japan had many types of legal prostitutes, all of them officially categorized and licensed. Geisha were licensed as entertainers only, and were forbidden to sell sex. What most people think of as a geisha is actually an oiran, a special type of high-class prostitute.
Not to say that no geisha ever broke the law and sold some sex to a persistent and rich man, but it certainly was never part of the gig, even less so in the modern era.
2) It could be an incredible source of revenue (through regulation and taxation) for the government if they were to widely legalize it, like many other countries have.
The sanctity of a marriage ruined by a wandering partner is not violated by the prostitute, or mistress, as it may be. If said wandering partner wants to indulge in a marriage-compromising activity, that is their conscious choice and cannot be blamed on the other party, whether this is the heat of the moment or an on-going affair. Unless our prostitute/mistress drugged said wandering partner and raped them, that would be like saying that criminals aren't responsible and that the crimes themselves are (they tempted).
While the astronomical divorce rates in this country sadden me, I can't say that I feel sorry for anyone that situation. There are an obscene amount of circumstances that impact a marriage, and adultery shouldn't necessarily be singled out in every case it's involved with.
Yes, this "house of love" was technically illegal as it is written in our books. They screwed up, and now there are consequences. But I believe that the idea of prostitution as illegal and bad perpetuates a terrible image about it that was drummed up by those who judge the act according to their own morals and values.
There are other people out there that don't believe the same thing as the overwhelming population of Christians and the likes in the US, and don't deserve to be judged according to the norm's standards.
Just because one lives in a country that allows a specific activity, that doesn't mean that they automatically endorse it or even have to have any contact with the activity.
If it creates another money source, and is generally about on the same level of ridicule as the adult entertainment industry (which is pretty solid in its standing), why not legalize prostitution?
Please don't liken my argument to that of a Communist, or a mass murderer. It was not intended for such a situation.
Wasn't attemping to side against you with the other commenter - just my point being - most of us, if not all of us, have been in a similiar situation at one time or another. I've had many men fool around on me, but I didn't have any standing to call the vice cops (although, I sure wish I could have at the time!).
Another point, why is it that we never hear about female undercovers following through with an act to catch a "John", offer and acceptance seems to be enough - slam dunk! But seems as if the male undercovers do at times follow through on tax payers dollors from what I have read, conducting investigations for months? Just doing their jobs? As well, you never hear about undercover males investigating gay massage pallors.
Lastly, perhaps you should have said to your former husband - "it's OK Honey, it you want to visit these estaablishments, as long as you are conformatable with me working in one".
I used to be suspicious of my guy's body work, that I never relayed to him, until he booked me a surprise appoitnment. Totally legit.
Peace be with u
King County's $70M budget crisis: Cuts in courts, law enforcement warned
Responding to a nearly $70 million estimated budget shortfall in King County, local criminal-justice leaders said Thursday they plan to...
By Natalie Singer and Keith Ervin
Seattle Times staff reporters
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GREG GILBERT / THE SEATTLE TIMES
King County Executive Ron Sims discusses the projected budget deficit at a news conference on Thursday.
THOMAS JAMES HURST / THE SEATTLE TIMES
King County Sheriff Sue Rahr, left, and King County Prosecutor Dan Satterberg listen as Superior Court Presiding Judge Bruce Hilyer addresses the media during a news conference on Thursday about the projected budget deficit.
Responding to a nearly $70 million estimated budget shortfall in King County, local criminal-justice leaders said Thursday they plan to move thousands of property-crime, forgery and drug cases to lower-level courts and cut investigations of fraud, Internet crimes and cold cases.
Belt-tightening might also eliminate Drug Court, family-court services and mental-health court services, officials said at a news conference at the King County Courthouse.
In one of the moves that could most trouble taxpayers, King County Superior Court is prepared to push all property crimes under $10,000 to municipal and district courts, said King County Prosecutor Dan Satterberg. Currently, all cases over $500 are classified as felonies and tried in Superior Court.
Under the new proposal, the prosecutor's office would direct law-enforcement agencies to automatically file any nonvehicle thefts under $10,000 in local-jurisdiction courts as third-degree thefts, which are gross misdemeanors punishable by up to one year in jail. Under state law, any theft over $250 can be filed as second-degree and any theft over $1,500 as first-degree, both felonies.
"After these cuts we won't be responding to the smaller crimes ... [and it] will not discourage criminals; it will only encourage them," Satterberg said.
King County Sheriff offers alternative budget in bid to save deputies
By KRIS HILL
Maple Valley Reporter Staff writer/news
Jul 09 2008
King County Sheriff Sue Rahr has developed a proposed 2009 budget that she said offers creative ways to trim spending while minimizing cuts of deputies to about of what she originally feared.
She said the proposal she sent Tuesday to County Executive Ron Sims includes the $7.5 million in cuts "I was directed to make" by Sims.
if this behavior were legal, you would still be the exact same amount of victim, so it does seem your motivation for calling the police was because you were wronged, not because there was illegal activity.
furthermore, if only spouses of johns are victims, who of those who were not married? or those providers who only saw people who were not married? should that be illegal as well?
Prostitution, along with a slew of other highly charged emotional legalization topics, is primarily illegal due to morality mindsets backed foremost by religious thinking- not logic. It has nothing to do with safety, as legalization generally encompasses the protection of all citizens, not those who "qualify" for cashing in on their trust and protection from law enforcers and makers- as in, a sex worker should deserve the same basic human rights as any other employee who is on the receiving end of harassment and assault, be it verbal, physical, or mental. Furthermore, workers of non-legalized trade industries learn to fear and not trust law enforcement agents and are more likely to continue ongoing abusive and potentially fatal relationships- work related or otherwise. Give me a sound argument that does not deal with morality or religion about why prostitution should be illegal and maybe I'll give a shit about your view point in return. And don't give me that "hard to tax" bull shit. You can tax anything.
Prostitution, along with a slew of other highly charged emotional legalization topics, is primarily illegal due to morality mindsets backed foremost by religious thinking- not logic. It has nothing to do with safety, as legalization generally encompasses the protection of all citizens, not those who "qualify" for cashing in on their trust and protection from law enforcers and makers- as in, a sex worker should deserve the same basic human rights as any other employee who is on the receiving end of harassment and assault, be it verbal, physical, or mental. Furthermore, workers of non-legalized trade industries learn to fear and not trust law enforcement agents and are more likely to continue ongoing abusive and potentially fatal relationships- work related or otherwise. Give me a sound argument that does not deal with morality or religion about why prostitution should be illegal and maybe I'll give a shit about your view point in return. And don't give me that "hard to tax" bull shit. You can tax anything.
Prosecuting.Attorney@kingcounty.gov
Ms. Love DECLARED HER INCOME and PAID HER TAXES. She has been an advocate and helper of women in need, a patron of the arts and a good neighbor. Please tell Dan Satterberg to DROP THE CHARGES against Rainbow Love (aka Vivian Ellis) and spend his time and resources on real criminals.